Remove/nerf That Stupid Damage Dropoff For Shotguns.

[luanle21]

People cared a lot when the Hek was changed to have damage drop off.

yep im still mad that they did that even tho its more realistic i liked to snipe enemy 200+ meter away from me with a shotgun 

[Derethevil]

yep im still mad that they did that even tho its more realistic i liked to snipe enemy 200+ meter away from me with a shotgun 

Well it is realistic to shoot something 200+ meter away with a shotgun.

Its not realistic that you cant.

[Archistopheles]

Seriously? That's what he said? That's a bigger cop-out than the 'explanation' given for encrypting drop tables and then seeing the drop tables bugged/altered/nerfed.

 

You'd have to re-watch some of the older livestreams. I can't recall the exact moment(s).

[-RG-Jezus]

This is somehow the reason why nearly no one is using shotguns in Warframe.

Yeah the Brakk nerf was the nail in the coffin for my patience here.

But only because i've wasted to much time, waiting for a viable shotgun.

So here i go now and explain it in a way, every prejudiced "Brakk-Hater" should understand.

 

What would happen if you remove it?

It wouldnt make them "the endgame weapon".

 

Shotguns:

Hard hitting? Kinda.

Can hit every pellet from a distance? No.

Can hit multiple targets? Yes.

 

So you would need way more shots to actually kill that group.

 

Everything else (Special weapons not involved): 

Hard hitting? Yes.

Can hit every "pellet" from a distance? Yes.

Can hit multiple targets? Only if you are bad at aiming. Otherwise, no.

With this you need a few shots to kill your target.

 

 

So please tell me why there is this devastating damage dropoff system for shotguns.

A "reallife" dropoff system would be fine, but for gods sake its way over the top.

A real shotgun shell shoots like 200 pellets and can still hit a target hard at like 40 meters.

But for shotguns in Warframe that shoot like 10 pellets the range should be like 400 meters, if you would compare that pellet count in reallife.

 

Yes im making this thread because of that Brakk nerf. But its about damn time you finally think about making shotguns viable again.

Right now you are just rip appart every single hope ive gotten as a shotgunfan in my time in Warframe. And you just making it worse right now.

 

I dont want another fancy Revolver. I dont want another fancy "Whip". 

I want to use shotguns already, without getting huge drawback damgage-wise.

 

Firstly, I'm guessing you have never used a shotgun in real life, or at least tried to hunt anything other than a bird with one (where one pellet does normally mean a kill).

 

Secondly, the Brakk was openly accepted as the most OP and game breaking weapon in Warframe, something had to be done about a PISTOL out performing nearly every weapon in the game. 

 

The MAXIMUM effective range for a current shotgun is approximately 40 yards (NRA stats, and no, I'm not American).

 

A real shotgun shell containing 200 pellets, Ill just point out that 00 shells contain 9 as standard and common bird-shot shells contain between 20 and 30 pellets. And you have to remember that with any mid sized mammal, one normal pellet hitting will never equate to a kill. 

 

>>But for shotguns in Warframe that shoot like 10 pellets the range should be like 400 meters, if you would compare that pellet count in real life

 

Now this is where you went full on $&*&*#(%&. The pellet count of 10 is accurate for a high damage shotgun, the most damaging shells I have come across contain 4, yes, 4, metal ball bearings, they are designed to take down bears AT LESS THAN 10 METERS!

 

Also, the "accurate effective range" for most low caliber rifles is 300 yards without a scope (NRA again).  

 

 

As a "shotgun fan", I suggest you stop thinking of shotguns as they are portrayed in games like that god awful call of duty franchise, and use them as they are intended to be used. I still love my Brakk after the nerf, because i don't try using it as a sniper, it is still one of the best secondaries in game, it still clears the room if you use it correctly, and it is amazingly useful when you run through a door and see a pack of mobs.

 

TLDR: Stop moaning because a shotgun pistol now works as a shotgun should and not as a sniper because the pellets didn't even spread.

 

Maybe everyone will stop using it now solely "because it is OP" and only the people who understand the power of a decent build and correctly used weapon will.

Edited December 7, 2013 by supersaupe

[IronRushBR]

Agreed with OP!

[PapaKicks]

Remove the dropoff, increase the spread based on distance.

Edited December 7, 2013 by PapaKicks

[-RG-Jezus]

Remove the dropoff, increase the spread based on distance.

 

But shotgun damage actually does decrease with range.

 

>lower the drop off and increase spread however.

[Archistopheles]

I love the post supersaupe, but don't forget about military weapons and special ammo!

[-RG-Jezus]

Well it is realistic to shoot something 200+ meter away with a shotgun.

Its not realistic that you cant.

How did i not see this earlier.

 

Have fun shooting anything in real life with a shogun over about 120 meters away with a solid slug. 

 

At 90 meters my 12-gauge with buckshot barely goes through a bedsheet

[Archistopheles]

At 90 meters my 12-gauge with buckshot barely goes through a bedsheet

 

Why are you shooting bedsheets?

[fatpig84]

Realistically after 50 yards, bird shot won't even do much against humans.

[-RG-Jezus]

Why are you shooting bedsheets?

It was originally to test how the shot spread over distance.

 

Then it just turned into how far away do you think i could stand and take a blast from a shotgun without injury.

 

 

I love the post supersaupe, but don't forget about military weapons and special ammo!

I just didn't want to over complicate it for some of the people here. And i do believe that the American combat shotgun uses either a breaching round or 00 buckshot.

 

And the US combat shotgun is as effective as shooting someone with a .22 if your shooting at a target 40 meters away.

[Derethevil]

Well supersaupe.

Where did you get your information from?

Google?

Wiki?

YahooAnswers?

 

You trying hard to say how a shotgun works, and asking me if i ever fired a real shotgun.

Yes i did. May i never fired all gauges, material or whatever you want to refer to.

 

One thing is for sure, it still can fire a greater range then in Warframe itself, if you are right.

But there is one problem.

10 meter a most likely 11-12yards.

40 yards would still be like 35 meters.

 

So even with your information DE would still need to adjust everything in here

 

But there is one problem. I dont think you know more then i do.

Also one really major problem is here relevant.

We are talking about futuristic shotguns.

You cant tell me every weapon in this game improved so much, so they can hunt down enemies which wearing an whale skinlike armor, without improving shotguns.

 

 

Call of Duty? Is that your way to make your opinion believable? I may played it, but i hate that game.

 

Edit:
So im looking up for even more videos and just can say that i dont really believe you.

You said 12 Gauge couldnt shoot throug a bedsheet at 100 yards... well why do people shot at targets and hitting them hard at that range?

 

Well just to annoy you now: 

Explaination?

Explaination?

 

Sir... sorry but your knowledge seems not so legit anymore.

 

Yes the spread is really huge, but i already said thats okay.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Derethevil

[-RG-Jezus]

Well supersaupe.

Where did you get your information from?

Google?

Wiki?

YahooAnswers?

 

You trying hard to say how a shotgun works, and asking me if i ever fired a real shotgun.

Yes i did. May i never fired all gauges, material or whatever you want to refer to.

 

One thing is for sure, it still can fire a greater range then in Warframe itself, if you are right.

But there is one problem.

10 meter a most likely 11-12yards.

40 yards would still be like 35 meters.

 

So even with your information DE would still need to adjust everything in here

 

But there is one problem. I dont think you know more then i do.

Also one really major problem is here relevant.

We are talking about futuristic shotguns.

You cant tell me every weapon in this game improved so much, so they can hunt down enemies which wearing an whale skinlike armor, without improving shotguns.

 

 

Call of Duty? Is that your way to make your opinion believable? I may played it, but i hate that game.

 

Wow, you can name 3 different websites. And no, I am just a Brit with a shotgun licence which actually allows me to own more shotguns and ammo variety than if i was American :D.

 

And the Brakk still shoots over 35 meters, it just doesn't insta-kill. Which is exactly how a real shotgun works, and if you didn't know shotguns have an 'optimum' 'preferred' and then 'effective' range. Effective range actually indicates a wound on a mid-sized animal, not a kill. 

 

And to clarify, a mid-sized animal does not usually wear armor, or have sophisticated shielding etc. (as you wanted to talk about the future where defensive technology would have also advanced).

 

So yeah, in the future lets just assume that armor has developed at the same rate as weaponry.

 

Therefore your point is invalid and modern day comparisons are valid.

 

And surely all other shotguns in game should be more effective than the Brakk as it is a secondary of Grineer design instead of say, a technologically superior Tenno shotgun

[TheThreadWeaver]

The reason is because if there was no damage falloff, no one would use any other weapon. Shotguns wreck in the damage department in this game, overpowering most rifles.

[Derethevil]

Wow, you can name 3 different websites. And no, I am just a Brit with a shotgun licence which actually allows me to own more shotguns and ammo variety than if i was American :D.

 

And the Brakk still shoots over 35 meters, it just doesn't insta-kill. Which is exactly how a real shotgun works, and if you didn't know shotguns have an 'optimum' 'preferred' and then 'effective' range. Effective range actually indicates a wound on a mid-sized animal, not a kill. 

 

And to clarify, a mid-sized animal does not usually wear armor, or have sophisticated shielding etc. (as you wanted to talk about the future where defensive technology would have also advanced).

 

So yeah, in the future lets just assume that armor has developed at the same rate as weaponry.

 

Therefore your point is invalid and modern day comparisons are valid.

 

And surely all other shotguns in game should be more effective than the Brakk as it is a secondary of Grineer design instead of say, a technologically superior Tenno shotgun

I havent talk about the impact there. Ive talked about the distance. 

Nice try though.

 

Also youre license wont get you more knowledge than others do. 

You may have some more experience with them than i do, but thats about it.

 

And now. The Brakk already has a huge damage falloff at 15-25 meters. (We could discuss the ingame meter design, but that wont get us anywhere)

 

And for TheThreadWeaver.

Well its okay if they want to keep that system, they should just adjust it.

 

But before we getting more and more into a whole discussion.

You have to admit a pellet doesnt loose his whole impact in like 2 yards, as soon as it hits the 30 yard line.

 

Edit:

Still searching and diggin the whole internet just to know im not that wrong about how devastating that dropoff is in Warframe.

Found this: 

The buckshot typically used in a combat shotgun spreads out to a greater or lesser degree depending on the barrel choke, and can be effective at ranges as far as 70 m (75 yards). The delivery of the large number of projectiles simultaneously makes the shotgun the most effective short range weapon commonly used, with a hit probability 45% greater than a submachine gun (5 round burst), and twice as great as an assault rifle.

Edited December 7, 2013 by Derethevil

[TheThreadWeaver]

And for TheThreadWeaver.

Well its okay if they want to keep that system, they should just adjust it.

 

But before we getting more and more into a whole discussion.

You have to admit a pellet doesnt loose his whole impact in like 2 yards, as soon as it hits the 30 yard line.

 

I honestly wouldn't know how pellets behave, as I do not own nor have I ever even been near a shotgun. So I am not qualified to comment for or against the exact nature of damage falloff.

 

I also do not have enough knowledge regarding how falloff works in this game. I support the concept of falloff, and the reason it exists as a game mechanic. I think one would have to understand exactly how it works before they are qualified to comment on the implementation.

 

As such, I am going off to the assistance forum to find out how it works. See you all later.

[-RG-Jezus]

I havent talk about the impact there. Ive talked about the distance. 

Nice try though.

 

Also youre license wont get you more knowledge than others do. 

You may have some more experience with them than i do, but thats about it.

 

And now. The Brakk already has a huge damage falloff at 15-25 meters. (We could discuss the ingame meter design, but that wont get us anywhere)

 

And for TheThreadWeaver.

Well its okay if they want to keep that system, they should just adjust it.

 

But before we getting more and more into a whole discussion.

You have to admit a pellet doesnt loose his whole impact in like 2 yards, as soon as it hits the 30 yard line.

I didn't mention impact either, nice try to derail me though.

 

Did i say it did? Although experience is technically a form of knowledge.

 

Yeah, so do most shotguns, and every shotgun in this game.

 

 

As for your reply to TheThreadWeaver

 

No, a pellet does not lose its whole impact in 2 yards.

 

Technically, it starts losing its impact the moment it is not being propelled.

 

Which just happens to be almost the instant it leaves the barrel.

 

So every extra inch that pellet travels, it is less powerful than it was the inch before.

 

However it would be ridiculous to expect DE to program that in, and it would probably make you *@##$ a whole lot more if they did.

[Derethevil]

I honestly wouldn't know how pellets behave, as I do not own nor have I ever even been near a shotgun. So I am not qualified to comment for or against the exact nature of damage falloff.

 

I also do not have enough knowledge regarding how falloff works in this game. I support the concept of falloff, and the reason it exists as a game mechanic. I think one would have to understand exactly how it works before they are qualified to comment on the implementation.

 

As such, I am going off to the assistance forum to find out how it works. See you all later.

Well thats okay. Maybe even im not qualified to judge DE here, because i only shot a shotgun once from my dad, back as i was a kid, but for me it seems DE also isnt qualified enough to hardly push in a dropoff system, if they dont get more information, about everything works.

[ArmyOfFun]

With the spread of shotguns you will never do full damage to a target at a distance.  Having no fall off damage means you can handle multiple light units at a distance.  You will still need to unload more than a full clip to take down a heavy unit at distance.

[Derethevil]

I didn't mention impact either, nice try to derail me though.

 

Did i say it did? Although experience is technically a form of knowledge.

 

Yeah, so do most shotguns, and every shotgun in this game.

 

 

As for your reply to TheThreadWeaver

 

No, a pellet does not lose its whole impact in 2 yards.

 

Technically, it starts losing its impact the moment it is not being propelled.

 

Which just happens to be almost the instant it leaves the barrel.

 

So every extra inch that pellet travels, it is less powerful than it was the inch before.

 

However it would be ridiculous to expect DE to program that in, and it would probably make you $#*(@ a whole lot more if they did.

No all you did was talking about the impact, as im talking about the distance itself.

 

Yes the impact already falls of as soon as a gun shoots, i guess thats something everyone know, but im talking about the range itself. You mentioned something about 35 meters. They dont exist in here, becaues they are already lost all of their impact as soon as they hit 20 meters.

So if they really want to make a "realistic" dropoff system they should increase the range itself and make them slowly decrease in that range, not like 40% every single meter after 15 meters.

Maybe they should make it like the effective range is 75 meter and every meter in that effective range the pellets slowly looses % damage. That already would be a more realistic way.

Thats the problem right here i was talking about.

[fatpig84]

The reason is because if there was no damage falloff, no one would use any other weapon. Shotguns wreck in the damage department in this game, overpowering most rifles.

 

Nope not really.

Pre fall off shotties still doesn't compete with Soma still imo.

Edited December 7, 2013 by fatpig84

[Nagisawa]

People cared a lot when the Hek was changed to have damage drop off.

Well apparently not enough to get the Devs to change it.

[IronRushBR]

If we need falloff to balance things, ok. But 10/20 meters falloff is a big &*$% joke!

[Derethevil]

Im still searching for more and more and more information for a lethal range. And most of all are talking about a 75 yard line where slugs still can hit hard and can be increased with diffrent types of shotguns.

 

The biggest range ive seen so far where someone actually hits something with a shotgun real hard.. well i posted that video already. 

230 yards.

 

I dont want to blame DE for trying to implement a drop off system. I just cant. But all im about to experience is that DE is horribly wrong how dropoff works.

For the Brakk a effective distance would be like 50 yards as far as im seeing everything all over the internet.

For Shotguns with way less pellets a effective range of like 100 yards would be reasonable.

 

Supersaupe you may have more experience with shotguns, but you cant deny all those videos where people actually show lethal ranges with them.

So if we want to get to an agreement here.

Dropoff? Okay.

But not like 40% damage dropoff in like 5 yards, if the most reasonable effective range would be at least 50 yards.

Lets say 50 yards only like 50% damage.

 

Shotgun slug snipers? Not possible anymore, 

Shotgun 12 gauge snipers? They need some luck to actually hit the target back there.