Nerfs On Nice Things.

[ThePresident777]

I implore you all to look in to Mass Effect 3 Multiplayers weapon balance, Bioware made some silly decisions, mostly closer to the end of their support cycle, but by the time they stopped balance changes they had achieved making a tiered weapon system that had 90% of weapons and classes useful in SOME sort of niche. They didn't rely mainly on DPS to balance weapons, they relied on uniqueness and niches. Even event exclusive weapons didn't completely outclass everything else, they were simply different.

 

I hate Mass Effect 3 MP.  Terrible terrible game, I cannot stress enough.  It's slow and utterly clunky.  Bioware has never been good at game mechanics, art, yes, mechanics no, just horrible.

 

And, most of their weapons were poop.  Their best weapons in terms of DPS were generic like Cerberus Harrier and Claymore.  It took them forever to make competitive my fav weapons, some of their most unique and fun weapons, the Kishock and Graal.  They always favored the generic over the really fun weapons.  They totally borked Krogans.  Bioware's programmers ruin the best that comes out of the Bioware art department.  Bioware is just horrible.  Where do you think some of the worst ideas in Warframe come from?  Mod packs?  Third person view?  At least DE is not pushing their mod packs like Bioware did and Warframre's Third Person View isn't as obstrusive, and obtuse, as ME3's.  Oh, I hate that game.

Edited December 10, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Garuger]

Just aim under the radar gun to potato and forma . Personally i used 4 forma on Cestra and i am quite hapy with it.

I did not have the Brakk but i understand to be heart breaking to have done a 100 grining missions and nerf it at oblivion

And that is why i did not do the 100 mission i found it fishy and suspected something like Strun wraith may happen again 

so i did not bother and look at this i was 100% correct (unfortunately)

[Innosin]

My point being, the Synapse does not do great damage, after 2.0 and red crit nerf,  it does decent damage.

My point being, per bullet consumption, Synapse does not do great damage, it does just average damage.

My point being, Synapse is not the in line of nerfs, because there are weapons that are out performing it at a lower mastery rank and less material requirement.

 

When did I ever say I use the Soma regularly?

When did I say you should not use a primary when there are secondaries more power than that?
I'm sorry that you have a knee jerk reaction just because I have stated your favorite weapon really isn't "great"

 

and yes,  I do want a nerf on the Soma for more game play balance.

It currently out perform clan tech with same/higher mastery  too much yet requires much more resources to complete.

There should not be a defacto/only weapon to be viable even on difficult contents.

The general recommend approach is to buff weapons that are under performing. How ever, when a weapon vastly outperform

any weapons in it's category, then it's time for a nerf.

I do admit the damage drop off on the brakk is a bit too harsh, extended them by maybe 5 meter should be just fine.

 

How ever, it is also very interesting to see so many players crying out regarding to Brakk being altered as if they never expected it to happen.

 

Your point being???? You want a nerf on the soma then? More balance? Balance for all?  United nation of balance?  Thought you were all about making everything viable? 

 

And yes synpase does do great damage if you know how to mod continuous weapons.  Did I even say anywhere that I want a synapse because it's better than EVERYTHING ELSE and your almighty soma?  And I shouldn't even use a primary cause a secondary is better?  Does making fun of my weapon choices boost your ego?  Please tell me what are these completely awesome weapons that you use and yet are balanced.

[aa3123]

My point being, the Synapse does not do great damage, after 2.0 and red crit nerf,  it does decent damage.

My point being, per bullet consumption, Synapse does not do great damage, it does just average damage.

My point being, Synapse is not the in line of nerfs, because there are weapons that are out performing it at a lower mastery rank and less material requirement.

 

When did I ever say I use the Soma regularly?

When did I say you should not use a primary when there are secondaries more power than that?

I'm sorry that you have a knee jerk reaction just because I have stated your favorite weapon really isn't "great"

 

and yes,  I do want a nerf on the Soma for more game play balance.

It currently out perform clan tech with same/higher mastery  too much yet requires much more resources to complete.

There should not be a defacto/only weapon to be viable even on difficult contents.

The general recommend approach is to buff weapons that are under performing. How ever, when a weapon vastly outperform

any weapons in it's category, then it's time for a nerf.

I do admit the damage drop off on the brakk is a bit too harsh, extended them by maybe 5 meter should be just fine.

 

How ever, it is also very interesting to see so many players crying out regarding to Brakk being altered as if they never expected it to happen.

 

Synapse does do great damage.  What game have you been playing?  Base electric damage let you turn it into corrosive and magnetic.  The two best element against grinner and corpus.  In addition, every hit is 100% crit.  One of the weapons that get full benefits from elemental mods and crit mods.  And no, you dont need volt shield to make it good. I am sorry you don't understand damage 2.0 and thinks you should be using electric as a base to go with volt shield.

 

According to this

, Red crits still work but are yellow.  I don't know how much that is true because I have not tested it personally.

 

The fact that you think it only does average damage just proves that your opinion have no credibitity.  When you say low mastery weapons that outperforms it, you mean weapon, as in soma.  Free feel to name another if you can.  Here's a secret, no high level players care about mastery.  They unlocked that a long time ago.  It is always the newbie players who mention mastery requirement in an arguement because they have not played long enough to bother with different weapons.  What happens after you nerf soma?  You will want to nerf another supposedly better one?  What happens after that?  Synapse is up there at the top. 

 

When did I say you use the soma or even mention the frequency to which you use it?  I asked what great and balanced weapon you use.  Please learn to read.  And when you start comparing 5 formaed  brakk, soma and synapse, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually possessed them instead of randomly making things up, which again would mean your opinion is not backed by anything.  I can randomly type things too.  When you start comparing brakk, a secondary to synapse which is a primary, yes you are indeed implying choosing a primary has anything to do with a secondary.  Please learn to write.

 

Synapse is not my favorite weapon as I have not spend a potato and forma it.  And no, I do not want to disclose what weapon are great to you so you can insist on being a know it all and nerf herd those.

 

Now, give a logical reason why any weapons that outperforms others hurt your gameplay in any way?  This has been said numerous amount of times, but EVERYONE on your side simply ignore it cause you don't have a proper response.  Why can't you just NOT USE IT?  Is someone forcing you to do so? No.  You have a choice.  And now you are trying to take away a choice from others.

Edited December 10, 2013 by aa3123

[Innosin]

I would strongly recommend you to read through the damage spread sheet, and tested it out your self

Detron, Brakk, Soma, Boar prime all has higher damage output than the Synape.
Then there are many other weapons at simila output namely hek, SWraith, Cestra, etc.
Then there is the throwing weapons that has just every slighly lower sustain dps than Synapse, but doesnt have that 25' damage limitation.
Any many of those weapons above has higher ammo efficiency that then Synapse

So no, While the Synapse does decent damage, it doesn't really great damage consider it's a rank 7 gun.

The volt shield still has damage buff, but it no longer give red crit buffs. the damage buff is applied to every weapon including the Synapse.

Here is the players that actually cares for a proper weapon balance system cares for mastery rank and resource requirement.

it has nothing to do with whether the player in the discussion can acquire them or not, it's about the basis of the game design.

Base electric damage let you turn it into corresion and magnetic, and that's it. It still has its problem when fighing against infesed. It still has it's
shortage against some emeny type just like other guns.
Volt's shields huge buff to Synapse comapre to other weapons was a developer over sight in 1.0, and they have since then corrected that.
Now you don't need Volt's shield, beucase it does the same effect to all weapons.

That video is not red crit, it's simply the damage buff from the shield.
What are my favorite weapons?
It's flux, which beomces S#&$ after 2.0.
It's Lanka, which was never the most power, and now just a good sniper rifle
It's Dread and Paris Prime, which was never main stream and has alwasy been underpower.
I also have vares formaed and many 2-4 potated primaries & secondaries in which I do not care to discuss in this thread
I now switch between all weapons just to test them out after 2.0 hoping to find something.

 

How do I know Synapse is just a decent weapon? because i tried it.
Most of the clan tech I have are potatoed and 2-6 formaed, Synapse included.
My friend, who plays a lot more than I do, has most of his frequent weapon five or six formaed.
I borrowed his to test out future builds after 2.0, and all I can say is, the Synapse did not fair well against other weapons in his armory

To me, there are no difference between secondary and primary, weapons are weapons, I dont' care what label you place on them. If they perform well, then they do, it has nothing to do whether it's secondary or primary.
If my set up at the moment has a higher sustain dps secondary and a high burst damage weapons, you bet I will be keeep using the secondary when the situation calls it.

So you dont' have the Synpase potatoed, you don't even have it formaed. How the hell do you know how it performs against other weapons?
So the entire time, I have been wasting time with someone that hasn't even tried out the weapon we are having an arguement.


Why can't we just ignore them and not use it?

Becuase it hurts game balance, it also hurts the feel of progression as you move up the ranking ladder and spend more times in this game.

and most importantly,

Your argument of "this is a co-op game" works fine now, but it will fail immediately when DE implement a stronger party system Or any actually challenging content.
When that happens, I can guarantee you, a lot of the PUG party is going be "Carry weapon X or GTFO" simply due to how disproportionally unbalanced some weapon are. And THAT, SCREWS OVER anyone else that like to other non-popular weapons.

I think I will end the conversation there, since there is no point to discuss the weapon balance with a person that does not even use that weapon in the first place.

Synapse does do great damage. What game have you been playing? Base electric damage let you turn it into corrosive and magnetic. The two best element against grinner and corpus. In addition, every hit is 100% crit. One of the weapons that get full benefits from elemental mods and crit mods. And no, you dont need volt shield to make it good. I am sorry you don't understand damage 2.0 and thinks you should be using electric as a base to go with volt shield.

According to this

, Red crits still work but are yellow. I don't know how much that is true because I have not tested it personally.

The fact that you think it only does average damage just proves that your opinion have no credibitity. When you say low mastery weapons that outperforms it, you mean weapon, as in soma. Free feel to name another if you can. Here's a secret, no high level players care about mastery. They unlocked that a long time ago. It is always the newbie players who mention mastery requirement in an arguement because they have not played long enough to bother with different weapons. What happens after you nerf soma? You will want to nerf another supposedly better one? What happens after that? Synapse is up there at the top.

When did I say you use the soma or even mention the frequency to which you use it? I asked what great and balanced weapon you use. Please learn to read. And when you start comparing 5 formaed brakk, soma and synapse, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you actually possessed them instead of randomly making things up, which again would mean your opinion is not backed by anything. I can randomly type things too. When you start comparing brakk, a secondary to synapse which is a primary, yes you are indeed implying choosing a primary has anything to do with a secondary. Please learn to write.

Synapse is not my favorite weapon as I have not spend a potato and forma it. And no, I do not want to disclose what weapon are great to you so you can insist on being a know it all and nerf herd those.

Now, give a logical reason why any weapons that outperforms others hurt your gameplay in any way? This has been said numerous amount of times, but EVERYONE on your side simply ignore it cause you don't have a proper response. Why can't you just NOT USE IT? Is someone forcing you to do so? No. You have a choice. And now you are trying to take away a choice from others.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[aa3123]

Wow, did you even bother for one second to read the garbage you typed?  No, I am not saying all your text are garbage, but 90% of it is. 

 

First of all, detron.  REEEEEALLY? It's funny how you are bringing in a weapon to compare when it isn't even released.  Paper dps??? Have you tried a supra?  Great paper dps, an ok weapon in practice.  And radiation element 50% to robotics that cannot be modified?  You are actually trying to convince anyone that's better than magnetic?  And a secondary.

 

Second, boar prime.  WOW?  YOU were arguing about ammo efficiency and you are saying boar prime is better?  Do you even own one?

Third, soma.  Are you really that desperate and out of example you have to bring up the same thing that I already agree on?

 

Strun Wraith and brakk.  SERIOUSLY?  Event weapons aren't even in the same class.  ZERO mastery and no longer acquirable.  Must I remind you that YOU brought mastery in as an argument?  AND they already come with a potato and own weapon slot.  Meaning you have no reason not to have them.  Brakk does not have a potato?  I am honestly sorry you chose a side that you KNEW was going to lose.  What were you thinking?

 

Cestra and throwing weapons?  Just stop.  Why are you comparing primary to secondary?  They use different slots.  And no, cestra is a sub-par weapon due to chaingun limitation.  No, throwing weapons are only good against grineers because they are puncture, same as cestra.  But you continue to use how synapse is not good against infested as an argument.  And clearly you fail to realize that there are two fire rifle mods that can easily give you 1k fire against infested on top of corrosive and magnetic being there.  Making it a dual fraction weapon.

 

Congratulation.  A block of text proving you can't name a single better weapon with a lower mastery rank other than soma. 

 

Why are you explaining volt shield?  It buffs extra damage. Was there in 1.0 and still here in 2.0.  Since you chose to ignore what I typed and filled your post with garbage trying to confuse people, here it is again:  "According to this

, RED CRITS STILL WORK BUT ARE YELLOW. I don't know how much that is true because I have not tested it personally."  Unlike you, I actually took other people's explanation into consideration as well as my own experience before making my own.

 

My favorite weapon is flux rifle, too.  6 formaed.  I drop level 70s without trying.  Not even half a clip for heavies.  The fact that I can do so and you can't means you don't know how to mod the same weapon.  And that is why you are just WRONG.  If yours is not formaed as much, prove that you have not used the weapon as much to see its potential.

 

Lanka and bows?  Why are you mentioning things that are worse?  Stuffing your response with more useless garbage. 

 

I have EVERY single primaries and secondaries other than some exclusives and sicarius prime that I am currently farming and a lot are formaed.  What's your point?  Do you think that mean you know better?

 

You know why I know synapse is good?  Cause I got all the clan tech formaed too.  And my 6 formaed ignis destroys level 65s.  Synapse has 25 more base, can get 100% crit and the electric makes it even better against corpus AND grineer rather than just infested.  The trade off is the aoe.

 

I am sorry you fail at modding and you need to "borrow" a friend's account cause you never put in the effort to actually see how great they do.  You know why I KNOW you are full of it?  Cause I have EVERY primary and secondary other than sicarius prime and exclusives.  I actually own the weapons and I do not need to share other people's account to make an opinion based on a couple minutes of gameplay.  YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THEM.  You expect me to even trust your opinion when you randomly toss on a few mods that your friend owns?

 

Stop.  Primary and secondary are different because they go into different slot.  No, just stop.  The game literally will not let you put the brakk, cestra, and throwing weapons that you mention into the slot where synapse or soma would go.  Stop comparing them.  Just PURE fail.  This argument is about what goes into the slot over synapse.  You don't know why they can't be compared?  Primary has heavy caliber, secondary has LOL magnum force.  Hornet strikes give more damage than Serration.  Secondary has lethal torrent.  Soma and synapse gets full benefit from hammershot, and secondary has terrible crit until aklex came out.  Unlike you, I can actually provide non-garbage examples to prove a point.

 

Becuase it hurts game balance, it also hurts the feel of progression as you move up the ranking ladder and spend more times in this game.

and most importantly,

Your argument of "this is a co-op game" works fine now, but it will fail immediately when DE implement a stronger party system Or any actually challenging content.
When that happens, I can guarantee you, a lot of the PUG party is going be "Carry weapon X or GTFO" simply due to how disproportionally unbalanced some weapon are. And THAT, SCREWS OVER anyone else that like to other non-popular weapons.

I think I will end the conversation there, since there is no point to discuss the weapon balance with a person that does not even use that weapon in the first place.

 

Really? The feel of progression?  I am sorry your feelings are hurt.  But your feelings are all that matters.  No one cares about any high level players around.  Their feelings mean nothing in your presence.  I am rank 13 with 6 melee weapons sitting in my foundary for my rank 14.  I sure did play long enough to know how it would feel.  The "more time I spend in this game", the more I want those good weapons that will let me do my hours long defense and survival.  But do I come over to where you are and limit what your choices are?  No, because as much as I like my fun, I do not try and ruin yours.

 

And most importantly, "IF"?????? We are going into non existing situations now?  IF?????? IF you can actually hold a discussion with PROPER arguments, your post would not have been filled with garbage.  IF you can actually win this argument, you would not resort to feelings and claim you are ending the conversation.

 

And finally, you still fail.  IF "when DE implement ... any actually challenging content", your mediocre balanced crap weapons won't get you anywhere.  They already have trouble lasting hours into the CURRENT survival and defense. 

 

I did NOT even mention "co-op" anywhere as an argument.  And no, a party means you work together.  Meaning any good weapon anyone brings benefit the team.  You are just too focused on yourself to realize they are there to help you.  I am sorry you are using terrible weapons that you know they will reject you from their teams.  You are talking about CLAN weapons?  You realize a clan helps you even if you mention you have bad weapons right?

 

You can't even hold an argument backed by actual evidence.  But I am sure those feelings of yours will win right?  Actually they do, cause there are more nerf herders like yourself who actually go on the forum to try and ruin others' fun.  Stop wasting my time with your random typing.  Here's my respond to your future random feeling voodoo magic typing:     3ohaoiushfaokjjio8ahieoqoijslek

[Innosin]

I did not put into too much time into since I was work and doesnt have that much time to check everything.

 

Paper DPS is often better than your subject DPS, since it's exactly how the game will be calculating damage instead of how you subjectively feel it in game.  It also widely depends on the player's style. The gun's potential is there, it just depends on the player uses it. 

For example. the Supra may not be great for some players, but it's completely devastating in the hand of a Trinity or Rhino.

 

Since when did Supra does radiation damage? Where did you get that fact? I would love to know.

 

Boar prime does have higher sustain dps,

Ssorry for my typo on but, it should have been simply "many.", many guns listed has better bullet/damage ratio.

 

Back to topic, have you even checked that table? Boar prime actually deals more damage per click than Synapse. Even consider the ratio in which you obtain rifle bullet vs shotgun ammo at 20 vs 10 per pick up.
 

Event items should be classified as a weapon class of its own in the tier system. Since the time, the way to acquire them is completely different than the normal progression. Event should be on the level of higher tiered weaopns. So old players can have something unique. But not overwhelmingly powerful so the new player do not feel too left out.

 

Any weapon purchased/gained normally should still fall under the normal progression.

 

Where did I state my Brakk does not have a potato? I don't remember ever typing that unless you are magically seeing text.  Feel free to quote me on that, I would love to see it and I will apologize, and yes, I have sided with the Corpus because I believe that's the right decision instead of being a headless follower who sided with Gineer just because it's the "winning" side.

 

Why can't I compare primary weapon with secondary weapons? They only have one purpose, to kill and destroy the enemy.

The weapons that deals the most damage in normal situation will be my main weapon for that round.

The weapon that deals less or more situational damage will be my side arm. I honestly don't care what the game has labeled them primary or secondary.

Thinking we shouldn't be comparing their damage output simply because the game has label one weapon as "primary" and other as "secondary"

especially when you can only use of of them at any given moment?

 

The higher damaging weapon in the situation will be used in those situation, plain and simple. Doesn't matter they are labeled primary or not.

 

Throwing weapons are good against grinner because they are puncture.

Synapse can be modded to be stronger against either Grineer or Corpus, but not be both at the same time given how damage 2.0 works.

That means, at any given moment in a game, it is only good for 1 faction. Having a versatile ability to be modded

for different situation is good in terms of utility, but does not change the fact it still has lower damage output when going with either damage.

 

Simply calling Cestra a sub-par weapon just because it's a chain gun type weapon is rather narrow minded. When facing large crowd, it's not uncommon for the user to require to empty an entire clip in one run with the Cestra.

 

So let clarify this, you believe, that the Synapse, still does red crit damage as before (he claims now just in yellow) just from one youtuber video's comment that was quickly gone over in one or two sentences?

 

Can you actually show me anything that proofs Synapse with electric shield still does it's out of the world damage prior to the red crit removal? It's been brought up many, many times on forum, and the general conclusion is that red crit bonus no longer exist, if you can show me the proof of that, that would be a great service to the community.

 

Why I brought up Lanka and bows? To show I have no favorites for weapon that are listed or in this discussion.

 

Yes, off course, a 6 forma flux can drop a level 70

I'm glad you can mod your weapon correctly, but what makes you think I can't? Here is a question for you though.

Can other guns with lower requirement do a better job?

I thin both you and I know the answer to that question unless you are in some extreme denial.

 

Again with the assumption, what makes you think I lack those weapons? Which part of statement have I stated I do not have those weapon my self?

I borrowed  his account since his weapons has more fomas for me mess around with mods. Plan and simple.

 

The problem with party forming has plagued many MMOs. It happens when ever certain classes/weapons are under developed or when only a select few class/weapon reign supreme in the game.

 

Those concerns are not hypothetical, it's destined. There is no "IFs" about it.  Discrimination based on weapon and frames will happen when DE decided to push out more challenging contents. and it will only be proportionally worse the worse weapons are balanced.

DE may try to fix it when it happens, but by then, the game will lose some of its player base that loves to versatile instead of rely on a single, or select few weapons.

 

Having to use a designated crutch to allow a player to go through difficult content is never a good game design.

It is a terrible idea no matter whether you are going through content with PUGs, with clan mate, with friends, or alone.

I included Co-Op because that's exactly the situation in which having over-powerful weapons in a game will affect one's experience even when he chooses not to use it. I'm sorry if you can not see the obvious.

 

Talk about evidence, have you actually check information being given out by your self? Can you provide proof of those claims been given out by your self regarding to weapons? For example, can you please provide me information in which Supra deals radiation damage, and the abnormal damage increase from red crit prior to U11 still exist but just in a different form?

 

You last few paragraph just seems like a child babbling about why his toy shouldn't been taken away.

It seems like the potential of having a meaningful conversation has been lost

There is no point to continue this conversation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, did you even bother for one second to read the garbage you typed?  No, I am not saying all your text are garbage, but 90% of it is. 

 

First of all, detron.  REEEEEALLY? It's funny how you are bringing in a weapon to compare when it isn't even released.  Paper dps??? Have you tried a supra?  Great paper dps, an ok weapon in practice.  And radiation element 50% to robotics that cannot be modified?  You are actually trying to convince anyone that's better than magnetic?  And a secondary.

 

Second, boar prime.  WOW?  YOU were arguing about ammo efficiency and you are saying boar prime is better?  Do you even own one?

Third, soma.  Are you really that desperate and out of example you have to bring up the same thing that I already agree on?

 

Strun Wraith and brakk.  SERIOUSLY?  Event weapons aren't even in the same class.  ZERO mastery and no longer acquirable.  Must I remind you that YOU brought mastery in as an argument?  AND they already come with a potato and own weapon slot.  Meaning you have no reason not to have them.  Brakk does not have a potato?  I am honestly sorry you chose a side that you KNEW was going to lose.  What were you thinking?

 

Cestra and throwing weapons?  Just stop.  Why are you comparing primary to secondary?  They use different slots.  And no, cestra is a sub-par weapon due to chaingun limitation.  No, throwing weapons are only good against grineers because they are puncture, same as cestra.  But you continue to use how synapse is not good against infested as an argument.  And clearly you fail to realize that there are two fire rifle mods that can easily give you 1k fire against infested on top of corrosive and magnetic being there.  Making it a dual fraction weapon.

 

Congratulation.  A block of text proving you can't name a single better weapon with a lower mastery rank other than soma. 

 

Why are you explaining volt shield?  It buffs extra damage. Was there in 1.0 and still here in 2.0.  Since you chose to ignore what I typed and filled your post with garbage trying to confuse people, here it is again:  "According to this

, RED CRITS STILL WORK BUT ARE YELLOW. I don't know how much that is true because I have not tested it personally."  Unlike you, I actually took other people's explanation into consideration as well as my own experience before making my own.

 

My favorite weapon is flux rifle, too.  6 formaed.  I drop level 70s without trying.  Not even half a clip for heavies.  The fact that I can do so and you can't means you don't know how to mod the same weapon.  And that is why you are just WRONG.  If yours is not formaed as much, prove that you have not used the weapon as much to see its potential.

 

Lanka and bows?  Why are you mentioning things that are worse?  Stuffing your response with more useless garbage. 

 

I have EVERY single primaries and secondaries other than some exclusives and sicarius prime that I am currently farming and a lot are formaed.  What's your point?  Do you think that mean you know better?

 

You know why I know synapse is good?  Cause I got all the clan tech formaed too.  And my 6 formaed ignis destroys level 65s.  Synapse has 25 more base, can get 100% crit and the electric makes it even better against corpus AND grineer rather than just infested.  The trade off is the aoe.

 

I am sorry you fail at modding and you need to "borrow" a friend's account cause you never put in the effort to actually see how great they do.  You know why I KNOW you are full of it?  Cause I have EVERY primary and secondary other than sicarius prime and exclusives.  I actually own the weapons and I do not need to share other people's account to make an opinion based on a couple minutes of gameplay.  YOU DON'T EVEN OWN THEM.  You expect me to even trust your opinion when you randomly toss on a few mods that your friend owns?

 

Stop.  Primary and secondary are different because they go into different slot.  No, just stop.  The game literally will not let you put the brakk, cestra, and throwing weapons that you mention into the slot where synapse or soma would go.  Stop comparing them.  Just PURE fail.  This argument is about what goes into the slot over synapse.  You don't know why they can't be compared?  Primary has heavy caliber, secondary has LOL magnum force.  Hornet strikes give more damage than Serration.  Secondary has lethal torrent.  Soma and synapse gets full benefit from hammershot, and secondary has terrible crit until aklex came out.  Unlike you, I can actually provide non-garbage examples to prove a point.

 

 

Really? The feel of progression?  I am sorry your feelings are hurt.  But your feelings are all that matters.  No one cares about any high level players around.  Their feelings mean nothing in your presence.  I am rank 13 with 6 melee weapons sitting in my foundary for my rank 14.  I sure did play long enough to know how it would feel.  The "more time I spend in this game", the more I want those good weapons that will let me do my hours long defense and survival.  But do I come over to where you are and limit what your choices are?  No, because as much as I like my fun, I do not try and ruin yours.

 

And most importantly, "IF"?????? We are going into non existing situations now?  IF?????? IF you can actually hold a discussion with PROPER arguments, your post would not have been filled with garbage.  IF you can actually win this argument, you would not resort to feelings and claim you are ending the conversation.

 

And finally, you still fail.  IF "when DE implement ... any actually challenging content", your mediocre balanced crap weapons won't get you anywhere.  They already have trouble lasting hours into the CURRENT survival and defense. 

 

I did NOT even mention "co-op" anywhere as an argument.  And no, a party means you work together.  Meaning any good weapon anyone brings benefit the team.  You are just too focused on yourself to realize they are there to help you.  I am sorry you are using terrible weapons that you know they will reject you from their teams.  You are talking about CLAN weapons?  You realize a clan helps you even if you mention you have bad weapons right?

 

You can't even hold an argument backed by actual evidence.  But I am sure those feelings of yours will win right?  Actually they do, cause there are more nerf herders like yourself who actually go on the forum to try and ruin others' fun.  Stop wasting my time with your random typing.  Here's my respond to your future random feeling voodoo magic typing:     3ohaoiushfaokjjio8ahieoqoijslek

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[aa3123]

I think I will end the conversation there, since there is no point to discuss the weapon balance with a person that does not even use that weapon in the first place.

 

 

There is no point to continue this conversation.

 

You are still here.  Here's my respond to your future random feeling voodoo magic typing:     3ohaoiushfaokjjio8ahieoqoijslek

Let me translate that for you.  YOU BROUGHT UP DETRON.  It is radiation damage and NON EXISTENT in the current game.  You are too busy THEORY CRAFTING to even realize that simple fact.  I pray for your own good that you are deliberately trying to misinterpret my sentences.  This whole sentence is about Detron.  Supra is being used as an example to describe paper dps.  Don't try to divert the subject that you are using a non existent weapon.  That's just admitting you have lost the argument.

 

First of all, detron.  REEEEEALLY? It's funny how you are bringing in a weapon to compare when it isn't even released.  Paper dps??? Have you tried a supra?  Great paper dps, an ok weapon in practice.  And radiation element 50% to robotics that cannot be modified?  You are actually trying to convince anyone that's better than magnetic?  And a secondary.

 

Supra being a chaingun is just bad.  You can hide behind your paper dps.  Slow wind up. LONGEST reload time in the game.  HUGE spread.  The game is not made entirely of narrow hallways and large crowds.  It's not awful cause there are uses for it, but still bad.  For every mod you use to improve its negatives, you lose a damage mod.  Cestra is the improved version but lacks the damage.  It IS a sub par weapon cause your emptying an entire clip is 60 shots out of 210.  Proving that once again, it's all theory crafting.

 

I did not put into too much time into since I was work and doesnt have that much time to check everything.

 

Paper DPS is often better than your subject DPS, since it's exactly how the game will be calculating damage instead of how you subjectively feel it in game.  It also widely depends on the player's style. The gun's potential is there, it just depends on the player uses it. 

For example. the Supra may not be great for some players, but it's completely devastating in the hand of a Trinity or Rhino.

 

Here's the core of your problem.  You don't even play enough to understand the game mechanics.  Period.  A simple 2 ft hop in game can send you into an auto-roll, cancelling your 4.2s reload time on supra.  Any units with knock down?  Same thing.  Frames do not improve a weapon's shortcomings.  Cancelling knock down with an ability?  The short coming is still there, you are just avoiding it.  If you NEED to do so, it is in fact a bad weapon.  So, no you say that "since it's exactly how the game will be calculating damage instead of how you subjectively feel it in game."  That is all I need to know you have no clue what you are doing.  Please return to whatever low to mid level planets you came from.

 

 

Yes, off course, a 6 forma flux can drop a level 70

I'm glad you can mod your weapon correctly, but what makes you think I can't?

 

 

It's flux, which beomces S#&$ after 2.0.

 

Point proven.  I have tried to logically reason with you.  But you have proven that a logical discussion with someone who thinks their theory craft is all that is needed to make him a pro does not listen.  The rest of your post?  All theory craft and ignoring any of my argument at the same time.  Waste of time to even respond.

 

 

I borrowed  his account since his weapons has more fomas for me mess around with mods. Plan and simple.

 

Come back when you have actually formaed your own weapon.  The time it takes to level a 6 forma vs a 2 forma weapon is three times worth.  It will let you actually learn the weapon and more broadly the game, which is your biggest problem.  You have not learned how to play this game.

 

 

I did not put into too much time into since I was work and doesnt have that much time to check everything.

 You have work?  I respect that.  I have work too AND I checked everything.  Come back after you did.  Your theory craft only proves that you are in fact a noob.  Being a noob is not a bad thing AT ALL.  But being a noob that thinks he knows everything without even checking things makes you a bad player.  Ask any high level whether synapse is a good weapon.

Edited December 11, 2013 by aa3123

[aa3123]

Oh and do everyone a favor, stop hitting quote button at the end to double the size of your post.  If you want to quote, use what you need.

[Eltoshan]

This weapon did not one shot stuff on Pluto - you are dead wrong - so get accurate and deal with reality yourself.

Quit sitting in earth land and whining and adapt to the outer reaches.

We Tenno need good gear to move outward.

New lands need new weapons - you can' handle that? - too bad - maybe Lotus should have a little talk with you about what she needs from her truly dedicated Tenno.

We need serious gear for serious missions in the outer reaches - quit nerfing decent stuff just because some Tenno want to stay at home on earth.

Move on DE.

Well, actually, the Brakk does currently oneshot things on Pluto, since I literally just tested it. 0 Formas, too.

 

Not touching the rest of this topic with a ten foot pole because too much hyperbole being thrown around, but I had to correct that because.. well, that's just an outright lie. I guess it is funny that someone on an earlier page complained about having to dump their Strun Wraith due to the nerfs, seeing as math shows it to still be the superior shotty at the moment unless you've got a Boar Prime, buuuut...

 

edit: Actually, gotta correct myself, the vanilla Boar is also up there with the Boar Prime, but... well, not very viable unless you've been holding onto it or the blueprint.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Eltoshan

[Innosin]

I keep the long quote in case someone decided to change his old post during a forum debate on forum without edit time lock.

it's an old habit of mine.

 

Detron's data was there, so I included it, sorry about, but it still doesn't change the fact there are many other weapon out paces it.

 

funny, before you start going all over the place accusing different subjects, and for me to waste more time to continue the conversation,

To prove my theory crafting is wrong,

 

Can you first provide proof that Synapse still has the red crit that gives more than damage boost given by shield?
Can you also given any proof that flux isn't a POS at the moment compare to other rifles?

 

Record a video, do a cal, show us something, that flux rifle can do things other rifle can not. Hell, at the current stage, even the decent Synapse out perform the flux.

 

Actually, Can you please, please proof me wrong on how S#&$ty the Flux is on its current stage, since I have found no real reason to pick it up vs other guns ever since finished configuring it after 2.0

 

 

Getting knock and interrupted ? are you kidding? I don't recall trinity get knock down during her link and blessing combo?

Having the reload interrupted jump and drop? What type of defense/survive/boss are you fighting that often requires you to move from one plane to another?

 

Spooling time? since when does the Supra spool down in the heat of the battle? it only stops when it runs out of ammo. In battle there are always the next target to shoot at before the barrel spool down too much to really matter

 

No, I do not need to learn more about the game, I have formaed my own weapon often enough, hell, I got to rank 11 just messing around in the game and on friend's account without even touching/leving up most of the melee weapons and some dual pistols.

 

With all things said, I am still very interested in you showing me proof in which red crit still works,

and Flux being actually "good' compare to other easier to obtain weapons. so I can actually justify my self to bring flux into a high level battle.

 

 

snip

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[aa3123]

READING goes a LONG way.  Try that first.  Like reading that Detron is not in the game.

According to this

, Red crits still work but are yellow.  I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT IS TRUE BECAUSE I HAVE NOT TESTED IT PERSONALLY.

Please don't misunderstand that if I refuse to waste my time explaining your inability to read means you are right about something.  I have admitted that I do not know if this is a fact since the FIRST post I mentioned it.  This is a video made by another, who in fact believed the same as you, but was corrected based on the opinion of many others.  If you even bother watching the video, you would know.  (Edit: he has since changed the video again and no longer mention his sources). And I am citing it from others, never did I mention it is the truth especially since I said I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THAT IS TRUE.  You merely jumped on what you thought was an opening. 

 

The topic was about synapse, not how others are better than flux.  Never did I mention how flux owns every other weapon.  So,  stop changing the topic and think I did it.  You did.

 

 But you have proven that a logical discussion with someone who thinks their theory craft is all that is needed to make him a pro does not listen.  The rest of your post?  All theory craft and ignoring any of my argument at the same time.  Waste of time to even respond.

 

Your theory craft only proves that you are in fact a noob.  Being a noob is not a bad thing AT ALL.  But being a noob that thinks he knows everything without even checking things makes you a bad player.  Ask any high level whether synapse is a good weapon.

Edited December 11, 2013 by aa3123

[HollowExistence]

Ill pitch in saying that op blowers kill my end game and deprive me of equipment that is needed for me to challenge myself.

The recent nerfs are not good. But first and foremost there is no explanation on De's part what went through their head when they implemented them... Just bad.

Edited December 11, 2013 by HollowExistence

[Detheroc]

4. The Open Beta will change often and possibly without notice. Weapons, Warframes, and every feature of the game may change as often as every day. We will keep you updated with these changes when you launch the game. By agreeing to these terms, you express consent for updating.

When will you guys learn that you agreed to that?
 

[Innosin]

sigh again with the same video over and over and over, I already watched that, can you please tell me where does he actually show or proof the effect of red crit instead of just glossing over it.

 

The debate regarding to flux's damage was brought up by you, trying to claim I was wrong due to not know my way around the mod system.

but hey, let's drop it, since it seems you are unwilling to continue.

 

The only possibility that Synapse will greatly outperform other guns and receive a nerf is due to red crit, without it, it's just a decent gun, not an OP one.

How ever, at the same time, there is no real evidence to back it up such that it still does exist.

 

You may also do a quick search across the forum. There has been no solid proof, no test, of any kind, proven red crit still exist. In fact, most post, including wikipedia discussions, indicates it no longer carry it's old unusual damage boost.

To be honest, I will be greatly full if you can proof to me that the red crit still exist.

But since you are unwilling to back it up, let's drop that as well.

 

Let's back to topic, the topic was not about Synapse, it is about DE's habitual action of nerfing guns that are popular and powerful.

 

When I pointed out that Synapse is not exact on DE's nerf list, contrary to your post, that's when the entire debate starts.

Alright, let's drop that as well.

 

 

To topic, my statement is simple.

 

Sometimes a nerf to over power weapon/frame is necessary to keep the player base to have some degree of freedom to choose what weapon they wish to carry into battle.

It's not about "oh, you can just not use it, it doesn't hurt you."

The over power weapon and frames it self is not what affect the player

It's how the entire gaming community interact and select party make up due to having over powering weapon/frames that kills the experience for other players seeking alternative styles.

In all honestly, if a weapon is too good to be true, you sure bet it's going to get hit with the nerf hammer. How ever, I disagree on the speed for DE to finally move their &#! to balance guns that were introduced being OP.

The time was too long, when something bluntly unbalanced. then the nerf should have been done shortly, before players can put too much time or money into it.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[aa3123]

Sometimes a nerf to over power weapon/frame is necessary to keep the player base to have some degree of freedom to choose what weapon they wish to carry into battle.

You contradicted yourself a few times already and I let it slide.  But now you did it in one sentence.  Limiting, restricting, nerfing, and your favorite sugar coated term "balancing"  does not increase freedom.  More choices do. 

 

Nerfing acrid from really good, even overpowered, to basically not usable is taking 1 choice off the table.  This is YOUR (as in all you nerf herders) argument about weapons being overshadowed and NOT a choice.  You want to tell me that's a choice I can still use?  Guess what?  Before the nerf, ALL weapons are there too. YOU could have choose to use others as well.  Notice the contradiction yet?

Edited December 11, 2013 by aa3123

[Innosin]

Oh boy, you know what, never mind.

I am actually happy for you, because you have yet to experience the result of poor game balance  in any challenging game.

You have yet to experience the party make up in which certain characters are banned from raids due to how poorly their character design is.

 

You have yet to experience only able to take one or two weapons into pug battle, not because other weapon is not available, but because most pug party believe you are hurting their chance of success with a much inferior weapon; and you will be instantly removed from their party when you suggest to bring something else other than the OP weapon. Which in terms, limited your weapon of choice to those few OP weapons as long as you wish to party with pug, or even just a slightly more entitled Elite group of player.

 

Those problem will surface as long as you are playing a even just slightly difficult game with other players.

 

I am glad any of the scenario has yet to happen in Warfarme (at least, not widely, though I have experience a few instance during the survival event, but nothing too major. )

 

Partially due to Warframe still yet to have any challenging bosses/raid/content

Partially due to DE has yet to screw up that bad on game balanced.

Partially due to the crowd on Warframe consistently ask DE to balance out weapon/frames that are just ridiculous.

 

But just because it has yet to happen, doesn't mean we shouldn't prevent it and just let DE run/release what ever ridiculously over powered weapon without ever filing our complaint or dismay toward it.

 

The above scenario has plagued MMO for ages, feel free to to ask any MMO veteran to testify their experience in those aspect.

Hell, if you really want to prove me being wrong, feel free to send an e-mail to Extra credits, one of the lead discussion of game balanced and verify if the above situation are true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh You contradicted yourself a few times already and I let it slide.  But now you did it in one sentence.  Limiting, restricting, nerfing, and your favorite sugar coated term "balancing"  does not increase freedom.  More choices do. 

 

Nerfing acrid from really good, even overpowered, to basically not usable is taking 1 choice off the table.  This is YOUR (as in all you nerf herders) argument about weapons being overshadowed and NOT a choice.  You want to tell me that's a choice I can still use?  Guess what?  Before the nerf, ALL weapons are there too. YOU could have choose to use others as well.  Notice the contradiction yet?

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[iUDEXnCr]

Super amazing god weapon got nerfed? Deal with it and use something else, adapt, I'm pretty sure you don't need to be one shotting everything with a secondary anyway, especially considering basically every primary was inferior to it. The nerf wasn't even that bad.

 

Actually mate, it was that bad. I don't mind some rebalancing. But it's so bad it's no longer fun. Unless you are almost point blank, the brakk does meager damage (less than 10) to even level 10 ancients. At point blank it does a ridiculous amount of damage still... but try hitting a MOA or anythign thatt moves at that range- it is frustrating. Shooting stationary targets is kinda boring right? So it's doubling boring/frustrating.

I understand challenge is fun... but frustrating is not fun. This is a game, I'd like to have some fun.

Acrid is pretty near useless, the damage is so low it's ridiculously low. I enjoyed having to shoot high level enemies (level 200+ back in Damage 1.0) 5-8 times, and retarget, and strategically run the map as one by one drop... that's not OP.

To keep it challenging, I just run lower ranked/new weapons. For all those people calling items OP, if you want the challenge use another weapon. "OP" weapons give us who have invested 200+hours in the game more options... for high level end game content. Why deprive us?

I agree with Innosin to a certain extent... in that there are no "super bosses" yet. Actually none of them are really all that challenging, so no one gets upset when someone brings sub-optimal builds... and I know what he talks about when it comes to being kicked for having certain builds... the issue isn't so much how difficult the boss is though. It's keeping the boss fights short. As long as they are short, then no one will feel they have wasted time. So this is where I disagree with Innosin's argument, because as it is high level defence and survival is equivalent to high level, long bosses. The great thing is that they allow the party to opt out at certain times. For those who want to find an optimal group they still do. So really, that argument is true but not relevant at this stage.

Nerfing needs to be done properly, but the issue is it seems like DE just do things because. Sure it's BETA, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put any thought into it.

Edited December 11, 2013 by iUDEXnCr

[Innosin]

It depends on what game you are playing.

Some games, the player base has limited builds simply due to wanting faster completion time.

Some games, the players base has limited builds because the general pug can not finish without certain build/requirement.

Due to heal limitation, revival limitation, time limitation, mechanic limitation, etc.

Some games, it's a mixture of both.

 

The fact that player can opt out durnig surival/def with full reward after 20 min is one of the reason why this hasn't been such a big problem yet, because there isn't anything actually challenging that the plaer base needs to obtain to get a certain item.

No real challenging raids/maps, modes with good rewards at the end has been set up.

Player doing high level def/survival are currently just for the hell of it, there are no actual win or loses if they can't reach a certain time or stage.

Even though no difficult content has been implemented, it is still relevant.  Just because it hasn't been implemented yet (remember, DE has, and is in the process, of redesigning bosses) doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the issue. Because when the complaint start to reach DE’s ears, the game will already lose a part of its player base.

 

 

And no, the Warframe community is no different than other typical MMO community.

During the 30min Survival event (which, honestly, isn't even that difficult),  I have already seem PUG party members asking others to change their load to increase their chance of success in it, and it will happen again when ever DE push out events/content that is remotely difficult to complete.

 

 

 

 

Though I do think the nerf on Acrid has been a bit too harsh. While it certainly became a crutch for difficult content, it does not deserve to be performing as bad as right now.

IMHO, it damage should be setting at one of the higher damage spectrum, maybe even one of the best ones given it’s rank and requirement, but just not as powerful/leaps and bounds above other weapons as before Brakk was released.

 

Actually mate, it was that bad. I don't mind some rebalancing. But it's so bad it's no longer fun. Unless you are almost point blank, the brakk does meager damage (less than 10) to even level 10 ancients. At point blank it does a ridiculous amount of damage still... but try hitting a MOA or anythign thatt moves at that range- it is frustrating. Shooting stationary targets is kinda boring right? So it's doubling boring/frustrating.

I understand challenge is fun... but frustrating is not fun. This is a game, I'd like to have some fun.

Acrid is pretty near useless, the damage is so low it's ridiculously low. I enjoyed having to shoot high level enemies (level 200+ back in Damage 1.0) 5-8 times, and retarget, and strategically run the map as one by one drop... that's not OP.

To keep it challenging, I just run lower ranked/new weapons. For all those people calling items OP, if you want the challenge use another weapon. "OP" weapons give us who have invested 200+hours in the game more options... for high level end game content. Why deprive us?

I agree with Innosin to a certain extent... in that there are no "super bosses" yet. Actually none of them are really all that challenging, so no one gets upset when someone brings sub-optimal builds... and I know what he talks about when it comes to being kicked for having certain builds... the issue isn't so much how difficult the boss is though. It's keeping the boss fights short. As long as they are short, then no one will feel they have wasted time. So this is where I disagree with Innosin's argument, because as it is high level defence and survival is equivalent to high level, long bosses. The great thing is that they allow the party to opt out at certain times. For those who want to find an optimal group they still do. So really, that argument is true but not relevant at this stage.

Nerfing needs to be done properly, but the issue is it seems like DE just do things because. Sure it's BETA, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't put any thought into it.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Innosin

[aa3123]

The above scenario has plagued MMO for ages, feel free to to ask any MMO veteran to testify their experience in those aspect.

 

You keep talking about "if" situations and claimed that it's "destined".  If you are so good at following thrends and predicting future, you should be a stockbroker.  Stop using hypothetical situations that may or may not occur.  You don't even admit that it's a "if" situation and insist it's the truth.  Yet again THEORY CRAFTING.  If you believe DE will do the same mistake, then quit now. 

 

You chose bad games with bad designs.  You should have quitted those and not complaining about how those games matter here.  MMO veteran?  Pretty sure I played enough of those to count. 

 

Ever played WoW?  Have you tried leading 40 men raids with half the raiders being idiots?  On top of your gear, raids even needs balanced amount of classes for different jobs.  More than challenging, it's frustrating to drag people through new bosses thinking they know what they are doing.  At least those idiots aren't dumb enough to bring crap weapons just cause they like it.  Anyone want to use crap weapons?  They can do so in places suitable for them.  No one runs around saying, hey let's nerf these lvl 60 purp so I can use my Thrash Blade in Naxxramas.

[Nagisawa]

The Strun Wraith, fully Catalysted with a Maxed Hell's Chamber, Point Blank and a couple of Elemental mods of choice did not one shot anything beyond late Jupiter.

[HackShield]

nerf here nerf there  my nervs get killed by dmg fall off isnt it enjoy if you higher the spread? as bigger the distance as higher the spread kills "op" weapons to arent it? so why is fall off still the thing they do i dont wanna cuddle with ancients or Gunners or napalms or all the other ones if you touch them you get Freeman slapped

[Eltoshan]

The Strun Wraith, fully Catalysted with a Maxed Hell's Chamber, Point Blank and a couple of Elemental mods of choice did not one shot anything beyond late Jupiter.

This is interesting because mine is maxed out (no formas, too lazy) and can oneshot enemies on Pluto, which I just logged on to check. Sounds like a problem with your element setup...?

[iUDEXnCr]

you know, the issue with nerfing isn't really an issue. It needs to be done to make the content viable, but the point is... DE doesn't seem to do it with much testing or thought. Hiding behind "BETA" is no longer acceptable.

And they just released yet another weapon :)

[aa3123]

And they just released yet another weapon :)

 

You missed the important part.  Damage types changed again.  Like ... heat and slash does no bonus to infested.  Hurray to balance?