Ash And Loki Are Getting Left Behind De

[someguy216]

As with any post on any balancing forum im likely to have people disagree but from my view compared to other warframes ash and loki are drastically less powerful then the other warframes. Ofc they do have their advantages, both are the only warframes with invisibility and althought there abilities are more about utility rather than flat out damage but even so they suck in comparison to lets say rhino who can just activate there ult and kill over 20 enemies while loki can only make them lose there range or ash can slowly and inaffectly kill only a few with his ult which although looks cool sucks.

 

I know DE are abit new to the whole balancing thing but i hope this gets sorted i rly wanna to play a stealth frame that isnt unbalanced, shame banshee is so hard 2 get.

[FallenWrathX]

Loki is fine where he is. He is powerful enough is the right hands.

Edited December 11, 2013 by XtremeHunterZ

[Tulzscha]

Less powerful you say? Ash and Loki now have 4x damage multipliers on melee attacks under Smoke Scree/Invisibility after damage 2.0.

 

Using Loki correctly modded for max Invisiblity uptime I'm getting 90k crit hits from the Galatine, chopping up everything on the level and staying Invisible practically forever.

 

Loki is in a good place - Switch Teleport bugs notwithstanding, he's a blast to play every time (my most used frame actually) with insane melee DPS, and totally owns Grineer Survival and Defense missions.

[Hybridon]

Loki:

 

1 - Its just a quick cheap ability, that on higher levels is more of a tool to use your teleport, but its fitting with a first ability limitation

2 - Invisibility, dealing 4X damage with melee while not being detected... yes, not on par with other frames at all, it gives you free killing on higher levels, while other frames lose there strength as you go on...

3 - Switch teleport, while it isnt the best, on the right hands is good. A mobility troll move, just like many other frames have there mobility abilities.

4 - Radial Disarm all enemies within range, rendering them almost useless with no level limitations, or duration... Yes, totally useless right? Rhinos Stomp as you go to higher levels will stop killing, and if you dont clear up all the enemies that are hanging in the air, you get a power in use until the end of the hanging, while Lokis has no limitations on this also, you dont have to clear up the disarmed...

 

Sorry, first learn how to use Loki, then come and askfor a balance.

 

Max he needs is Decoy to be spammable, instead of replacing the other one, and Switch teleport to be able to interact with objects like barrels and stuff.

 

As for Ash, I agree he needs a look at, but all i see him needing is a work on Shuriken, there have been many suggestions that would come in handt. Smoke Screen being able to be used again while invisible, for less energy and just giving that knockback, so he has some CC and teleport being able to target at objects.

 

Nothing that much also, as he is extremely durable with his stats, and his abilities make him a great frame to kill key targets.

[Slaytanic93]

Ash ultimate is indeed a little bit slow compared to other frames, but  I think Loki is just fine, as guy above said.
I started my game with Loki and thought that Ash would be a upgrade for my playstyle, I sold Loki eventually. However when I got Ash I felt so disappointed, specially with his ultimate... Got Loki back last week and I'm enjoying it as I never did.

[Wiegraf]

Ash ultimate is indeed a little bit slow compared to other frames, but  I think Loki is just fine, as guy above said.

I started my game with Loki and thought that Ash would be a upgrade for my playstyle, I sold Loki eventually. However when I got Ash I felt so disappointed, specially with his ultimate... Got Loki back last week and I'm enjoying it as I never did.

 

Ash's ultimate is a problem; sure, you don't want to do away with the animation that plays while you jump from one target to another... but you don't want to be stuck for 15 seconds in an elaborate cutscene either.

 

One way to fix it would be to reduce the number of instances that you get to see that 'cutscene' and a viable one would be for Ash to create Smoke Clones when using his 4th ability above rank 1. Basically this :

 

Bladestorm Rank 0 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- A total of 3-4 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 1 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 1 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 6-8 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 2 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 2 Smoke Clones jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 9-12 enemies are dealt damage

 

Bladestorm Rank 3 :

- Ash jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing rank-dependent damage (as it does now)

- 3 Smoke Clone jumps to 3-4 marked targets, dealing the same damage as Ash

- A total of 12-16 enemies are dealt damage

 

This way, no matter the rank of Bladestorm, you have, at most, 3 to 4 'cuts' during Ash's 4th ability while dealing with as many enemies as he would now. From the player's perspective, he gets 3 to 4 cuts using his animations; from an ally perspective, 12 to enemies gets taken down by Ash and 3 Smoke Clones taking down 3-4 enemies at once, 4 times. Ash's 4th is now reduced to 3-4 seconds top.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Wiegraf

[Revel72]

My Loki is left behind? My runs on you OP and kicks on your balls if you are a man.

[LordMidnightX]

Yah loki is fine as he is now lol 

 

Ash though does need some work aka get rid of the stupid flip at the end of his teleport and reduce its cost so it is a better mobility ability, and I like the smoke clones idea 

[Raptscallion]

As with any post on any balancing forum im likely to have people disagree but from my view compared to other warframes ash and loki are drastically less powerful then the other warframes. Ofc they do have their advantages, both are the only warframes with invisibility and althought there abilities are more about utility rather than flat out damage but even so they suck in comparison to lets say rhino who can just activate there ult and kill over 20 enemies while loki can only make them lose there range or ash can slowly and inaffectly kill only a few with his ult which although looks cool sucks.

 

I know DE are abit new to the whole balancing thing but i hope this gets sorted i rly wanna to play a stealth frame that isnt unbalanced, shame banshee is so hard 2 get.

 

You do realize Ash's ult does more base damage than Rhino stomp right? Base damage at 2000 per hit at max rank(damage that can be increased by power strength mods) - and this damage is not affected by enemy resistances because it deals finisher damage.And you're invincible while this is occuring. The only real problem I can see is that it will take a while to kill all the mobs aimed at - the mobs that would almost surely die when hit if modded properly - and I'm not even considering teammates pitching in. While I will admit that it could use some work with various bugs that occur while in use, it is far from sucking. Both invisibility moves allows you to deal 4x melee damage (granted it doesn't deal 4x damage if you aren't hosting), and this works for all melee attacks while in stealth. Teleport on Ash feels kinda wonky I will admit as well, but staggering Heavy gunners with teleport and blasting away with a Hek is awesome when  timed right. Shuriken deals decent damage for an initial skill at 500 base slash damage per shuriken - shurikens that track your targets by the way. 

 

Let's say none of Ash's powers that I described hold any appeal to you, let's talk about Loki.

 

Loki can bring out a decoy that almost always pulls aggro. To be fair, the decoy will only last a few seconds on higher levels, and is definitely in need of some tweaks. It's still a pretty solid skill for getting enemies of your back if only momentarily. Invisibility lasts way longer than Ash's, and can be increased even more with duration mods. Plus that 4x melee multiplier I mentioned earlier. Sounds pretty stealthy to me. Switch Teleport's a little odd, I've only used it to get out of getting stuck in walls and traveling to places hard to reach via Decoy. It could use some work. Radial Disarm I don't like much. I mean disarm weapons is cool and all but now I'm getting beaten to death by cattle prods. Still it has its uses - wanna get rid of that Napalm's hazard launcher? A Bombard's rocket launcher? A Scorch's flamethrowers? Moa Problems? Radial disarms shuts down pretty much all that noise.

 

The two frames could use a little work sure, but almost every frame needs attention at this point in time. Ash and Loki's really just need bug fixes and slight tweaks. In my opinion they're pretty decent frames at the moment.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Raptscallion

[StanicEnemy]

As with any post on any balancing forum im likely to have people disagree but from my view compared to other warframes ash and loki are drastically less powerful then the other warframes. Ofc they do have their advantages, both are the only warframes with invisibility and althought there abilities are more about utility rather than flat out damage but even so they suck in comparison to lets say rhino who can just activate there ult and kill over 20 enemies while loki can only make them lose there range or ash can slowly and inaffectly kill only a few with his ult which although looks cool sucks.

 

I know DE are abit new to the whole balancing thing but i hope this gets sorted i rly wanna to play a stealth frame that isnt unbalanced, shame banshee is so hard 2 get.

Really?

[VentiGlondi]

Just make Radial Disarm do something against infested and I'm happy.

[HillsAndTheSea]

loki is less powerful? next you are going to say trinity is weak too?

 

if you think loki is weak, then you are playing him wrong. it took me a while to realize myself how amazing loki actually is

 

loki is the fastest warframe, has 2 abilities that scale infinitely, one troll ability, two great helmets, AND is a starter frame ( he only costs 75 plat instead of 300+)

 

i tried ash, and honestly it boiled down to him being only good for invisiblity (which loki does better) but it did make me realize how much i missed having a loki. so yeah ash, is kinda lacklaster, aside from his pure ninja aesthetic. he could use some fixing

 

both of there 3rd abilities need slight auto aim or some sort of aim assist, and aside from that ash really only suffers problems that all waframes currently suffer: damage abilities dont scale that well and health/armor is garbage right now

[SpFinX]

Dude, Loki and Nyx are controllers. Their abilities stay equally powerful against any enemy level, while nuker frames are left behind. I just played grineer survival as Loki and mah team was VERY happy about Napalms running around with Provas XD. They both (Loki and Nyx) require Overextended to be really great, though. Just realize it - they are end-game frames.

[someguy216]

People please i was trying to make a point about balancing issue please dont blindly say things because i happen to say something offensive about your favourite warframe im just want the warframes to be balanced. Yes as ive already stated invisibility for both ash and loki are good but thats not a problem, please read fellow tenno.

The other abilities not including the ult are fine in everything but energy cost, as they are mobility/utility based. Loki's clone is pretty good and cheap so is actually fine as it is however, shruken high single target damage but for 25 energy still isnt enough damage so should either have damage increased or energy reduced to 10 or 15.

Teleport as mentioned should have nergy reduced otherwise is fine.

switch teleport again energy reduction then will be good since it has no damage.

 

But that aside the main problem is the ults, ashs is cool but it takes along time and damage is not upgraded with mod level so quickly becomes less effective even though 1000-2000 damage is going to have a large effect on any enemy no matter the level still the limited targets and time pulls it back from other ubers, though the cutscenes shouldnt be removed as mentioned by you guys something like that cool smoke clone idea could help speed the power up and maybe make the mod increase in damage slightly with level.

Then theres radial disarm, sure its useful but when compared to other ults i would only say it can outmatch other ults when against incredibly high lvl enemies that are grineer heavy units other than the odd situation simply isnt that great. Still the ult shouldnt change but should have extra effect i.e. disable enemies abilities and shield regen. This would aslo fix disarm's problem against infested as disabling ancients knock down, energy drain and poison auras could be really helpful. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by someguy216

[Raptscallion]

 

People please i was trying to make a point about balancing issue please dont blindly say things because i happen to say something offensive about your favourite warframe im just want the warframes to be balanced. Yes as ive already stated invisibility for both ash and loki are good but thats not a problem, please read fellow tenno.

The other abilities not including the ult are fine in everything but energy cost, as they are mobility/utility based. Loki's clone is pretty good and cheap so is actually fine as it is however, shruken high single target damage but for 25 energy still isnt enough damage so should either have damage increased or energy reduced to 10 or 15.

Teleport as mentioned should have nergy reduced otherwise is fine.

switch teleport again energy reduction then will be good since it has no damage.

 

But that aside the main problem is the ults, ashs is cool but it takes along time and damage is not upgraded with mod level so quickly becomes less effective even though 1000-2000 damage is going to have a large effect on any enemy no matter the level still the limited targets and time pulls it back from other ubers, though the cutscenes shouldnt be removed as mentioned by you guys something like that cool smoke clone idea could help speed the power up and maybe make the mod increase in damage slightly with level.

Then theres radial disarm, sure its useful but when compared to other ults i would only say it can outmatch other ults when against incredibly high lvl enemies that are grineer heavy units other than the odd situation simply isnt that great. Still the ult shouldnt change but should have extra effect i.e. disable enemies abilities and shield regen. This would aslo fix disarm's problem against infested as disabling ancients knock down, energy drain and poison auras could be really helpful. 

 

Teleport and Switch Teleport should be at a base energy cost of 10 like Excalibur's Super Jump imo.

 

Radial Disarm could also debuff enemy defenses in addition to removing weapons, as knockdowns only last a second or two.

 

Slight correction that might seem like nitpicking but Shuriken imho is already high enough damage for something that tracks enemies and is only third in base damage(for each shuriken) for the first Warframe skills. Rhino Charge has highest at 650(however this is impact damage. 'Nuff said), second is Valkyr's Ripline at 600 slash damage(but good luck aiming that) Next are Excalibur's Slash Dash and Ash's Shuriken at 500 slash. If you want to suggest a buff for Shuriken, I'd say an increase in the shuriken's shot would make more sense. Or an all round buff to all inital Warframe skill damage. 

 

Also Bladestorm is not affected by enemy resistances,  and enemy level. So that means at max rank you will always do 2000 damage unmodded to each target regardless of level. 

 

The clone idea is pretty amazing I will agree, it'll get op with the right damage mods though.

 

I really don't mean to nitpick but it bugs me when people claim skills to be crappy without an in-depth look, and say others are blindly saying things.

Yes, Ash is my favorite frame but I definitely did my research mate; these aren't baseless, he's my favorite for a reason.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Raptscallion

[Wiegraf]

The clone idea is pretty amazing I will agree, it'll get op with the right damage mods though.

 

The problem is not the damage; it's how it goes on and locks out a player while it's active. Other than Nyx's Absorb which is half "Return to Sender" and an aggro pull which is actually does what it should do, Ash is one of the only frame with a lengthy 4th skill execution that makes you standby and unable to do anything while it goes on.

 

Sure, you deal 2000 base damage to targets, one at a time... but during those 15 seconds, a Rhino would have stomped the room several times over, Nova would have primed targets for the 2x damage and slow, Volt would have shocked everyone in 3 rooms over about 10 times over, etc.

 

Add to that you are pretty locked up if, for example, an objective was under attack or an ally was down and you couldn't respond to defense or reviving since you're only on your 3rd of a serie of 13 targets to stab.

 

The smoke clone idea is to make the skill lock the player for a much smaller duration. If there is possibility to abuse it with mod builds, then why not simply reduce the overall damage to say 1200-1500 instead of 2000, given now that you can trigger it more often and it being less constricting? Really, IMHO, I wouldn't mind the damage being reduced if it meant I wasn't stuck in a 13-15 second slideshow but would still like to see Ash jump around and pull backstabs and the likes.

 

Ash is also my favorite frame but it's not really normal that whenever I want to use his 4th skill, what goes through my mind is not how many enemies I'll take out of combat with Bladestorm but instead how long Bladestorm will take "me" out of being able to respond to a changing situation while it's active.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Wiegraf

[Raptscallion]

Fair point, the skill lock is pretty annoying in Defense/Mobile Defense and when an ally is down I agree and I don't take Ash for the Defense runs because of that (He might be my favorite, but I'm not silly). Comparing any other Warframe's ultimate to Molecular Prime is entering the danger zone though - let's leave that there (enough Nova's OP threads as it is) Rhino and Volt can spam ult's sure, just not as frequently as Nova/Saryn( poor poor Saryn :[ ) /Vauban

The Smoke clone idea is a pretty great idea to overhaul the way Bladestorm works. I agree with having damage reduced, that should balance stuff a bit as well. Being able to move around freely around Bladestorm would be amazing. Not only would the Devs that took the time to animate the flips and stuff for the ult would not have their hard work wasted, it'd be a pretty awesome buff utility-wise

Edited December 11, 2013 by Raptscallion

[Wiegraf]

Fair point, the skill lock is pretty annoying in Defense/Mobile Defense and when an ally is down I agree and I don't take Ash for the Defense runs because of that (He might be my favorite, but I'm not silly). Comparing any other Warframe's ultimate to Molecular Prime is entering the danger zone though - let's leave that there (enough Nova's OP threads as it is) Rhino and Volt can spam ult's sure, just not as frequently as Nova/Saryn( poor poor Saryn :[ ) /Vauban

 

Just meant that while Nyx's 4th skill purpose IS to be a stationary beacon for aggro then retribution, there's really no more long-execution 4th skills (now that Volt's 4th has been toned down) other than Ash and Banshee; but then again, Banshee's Sound Quake is also a crowd control by keeping enemies permanently staggering (much like how Nyx will have everyone gunning for her, keeping the heat off of her allies) while Ash's tagged targets are free to move and act as they do until they get stabbed and possibly killed.

 

It's only the locked-in-animation part of Bladestorm that puts it's efficiency below average and yes, if it can then be recast more often, a damage reduction would make sense (since it's unresisted, flat damage)

[sewens]

Even though loki's decoy health got nerfed he is still playable and a very useful support frame at all levels. Ash's utility is stunted by powers that you literally have to "spam" if you want to use them on the move. Also with the armor buff his armor got indirectly nerfed. His smokebomb is good if you mod duration for it and shuriken is okay but the 3 and 4 powers are the problem that needs to be buffed somehow.

Edited December 11, 2013 by sewens

[ASH_PRIME]

Think we might see a Ash Teleport Fix/Buff after 6 MONTHS and dozens of threads on it?

No...didn't think so

Also Shuriken his main go to move has been nerfed into the ground with enemy armour

1900 dmg has now become 150-300 dmg..   thanks alot


 

Edited December 13, 2013 by ZetaReticulan

[Baigan]

Less powerful you say? Ash and Loki now have 4x damage multipliers on melee attacks under Smoke Scree/Invisibility after damage 2.0.

 

Using Loki correctly modded for max Invisiblity uptime I'm getting 90k crit hits from the Galatine, chopping up everything on the level and staying Invisible practically forever.

 

Loki is in a good place - Switch Teleport bugs notwithstanding, he's a blast to play every time (my most used frame actually) with insane melee DPS, and totally owns Grineer Survival and Defense missions.

 

90k?! Dang son, that's solid, max i got was 50~60k-ish so far~ D:

 

But regarding the topic, sure, Ash could use some love. Loki is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. If anything the only tweak to loki would be to have decoy scale from enemy lvl somehow. (lvl 10 enemies around? lvl 10 decoy. Lvl 60 enemies around? lvl 60 decoy). But even that is already complaining about a pretty good deal really. :I

[Scar.Heart]

Loki does fine. I've yet to see a Loki user who knows how to work him have trouble.

 

Ash on the other hand, needs a total overhaul (imo).

 

In short:

Stealth gameplay isn't viable, be it in rewards, exp, etc.

Ash is supposedly the stealth frame. With his gameplay going nowhere, he becomes nothing more than a gimped damage dealer.

His only save is Smoke bomb's new damage, which is easily outclassed by Loki's far superior Invisibiliy time (and team-friendly abilities).

Teleport still has a wonky hitbox, making it difficult to escape/aid with.

Bladestorm does wonderful damage, but takes too much time and has no real CC. Anyone with a strong enough ability can make Ash's Energy a waste.

Edited December 13, 2013 by MagnusFury

[Nox-Lamina]

Loki does fine. I've yet to see a Loki user who knows how to work him have trouble.

 

Ash on the other hand, needs a total overhaul (imo).

 

In short:

Stealth gameplay isn't viable, be it in rewards, exp, etc.

Ash is supposedly the stealth frame. With his gameplay going nowhere, he becomes nothing more than a gimped damage dealer.

His only save is Smoke bomb's new damage, which is easily outclassed by Loki's far superior Invisibiliy time (and team-friendly abilities).

Teleport still has a wonky hitbox, making it difficult to escape/aid with.

Bladestorm does wonderful damage, but takes too much time and has no real CC. Anyone with a strong enough ability can make Ash's Energy a waste.

 

Let's start taking this apart. You don't mention shuriken which is pretty good for grineer and robotics, and with damage + efficiency mods is very useable. So you are forgetting a deadly part of the arsenal. Yes it is slower in cast time and travel time now, but that is like saying the bullet train got slower, it is still fast.

 

Ash's invisibility stuns, the only time that Ash's invisibility is worse than Loki's is when you have want for energy, which should be rarely. Having something that stuns all the enemies around you is so useful I've found myself spamming 2 nevermind it does nothing. And I have a dumb question, since when is a 4x multiplier on your melee and the fact that enemies cannot see you anymore not viable. Sure you don't get any extra exp or rewards, but what about general ease of play. Ash can stun everything around him, which Loki cannot and choose to kill them or flee. Don't even start me on Ash being more durable.

 

Teleport needs work yes, but it is getting much better. I use it when I have hobbled on Ash.

 

Bladestorm isn't meant to crowd control it is meant to kill, if it were to do like proposed in this thread and take a shorter amount of time and also  target the opponents with the most HP it would fit in quite well.

[rhoenix]

I agree with some here who think Loki is pretty much fine as-is (apart from letting one Switch Teleport with barrels, and maybe making Decoy more viable with higher levels).

As for Ash, I agree with Nox's points for Ash above, with a few alterations. Teleport should have a very straightforward mechanic - if you're not invisible, you'll Teleport FACING the target. If you're invisible, you'll Teleport BEHIND the target.

And honestly, even with the recent visual changes to Blade Storm, I still feel the animation for it is still not quite right. Ash is ninja enough to have a stunning smoke bomb (as Nox mentioned, a completely under-rated trait) and able to Teleport already - just doing cool melee moves on multiple enemies is cool, but it's also completely underestimating what he should be capable of.

My suggestion for it is pretty simple - Ash stabs the ground in front of him with his melee weapon, and Smoke Clones of himself race off in a straight line toward each nearest enemy, each performing the cool finishing moves as is shown now to cause damage. It's over in a moment - blink, and you'll miss it.

[Scar.Heart]

@Nox-Lamina

The TL;DR

You seemed to have missed what my main concern was.

He's a stealth frame. (at least by description)

While his attacks are decent, he does not have any sort of stealth ability outside of smoke bomb. Take that away, and he's just another damage dealer.

And that's the problem. Smoke bomb is the only reason he can be considered stealth. He has no other attributes to that field.

Shuriken, Teleport and Blade Storm don't have innate silence or any sort of anti-detection aid. Once you use'em, you alert everyone in radius.

___________

 

You don't mention shuriken which is pretty good for grineer and robotics, and with damage + efficiency mods is very useable. So you are forgetting a deadly part of the arsenal. Yes it is slower in cast time and travel time now, but that is like saying the bullet train got slower, it is still fast.

He can hurt stuff like everyone else. Cool.

It does some hefty puncture damage, and that's great. It hits 2 targets at max, and with some fair-high damage.

 

But how does it hold up in stealth situations?

It doesn't. Once Shuriken is used, all enemies within earshot are alerted.

No innate silence to show Ash has something for stealth other than invisibility. Nothing to actually seperate him from his allies in the whole "Violence in Silence" category.

 

"Use smoke bomb!"

Which just adds to my point. His only stealth contribution is Smoke Bomb. He has nothing else to show he's stealthy.

You could carry a Shade with any other frame and perform specials in its cloak.

 

It's a decent ability, but it holds nothing to actually help in Stealth gameplay. Use it and everyone knows you're there.

 

 

Ash's invisibility stuns, the only time that Ash's invisibility is worse than Loki's is when you have want for energy, which should be rarely. Having something that stuns all the enemies around you is so useful I've found myself spamming 2 nevermind it does nothing. And I have a dumb question, since when is a 4x multiplier on your melee and the fact that enemies cannot see you anymore not viable. Sure you don't get any extra exp or rewards, but what about general ease of play. Ash can stun everything around him, which Loki cannot and choose to kill them or flee. Don't even start me on Ash being more durable.

In all the stealth playthroughs I've done, that stun SB gives has never shown purpose. (y'know, because I hide)

I don't see how Ash's invisibility is better than Loki's. Less time for safe traveling, less time for picking up allies undetected, less time for setting yourself up on unsuspecting prey. And, in the event of a melee frenzy, less time to inflict pain on targets that may be spread quite far.

Now, givin the open-combat scenario, his stun has still played very little purpose in my time. If I pop a smoke, I'm usually hiding behind cover of sorts already, so as to avoid health loss. I don't stand in the open and eat bullets while equipping it (lest a heavy knocked me down).

 

Now, given the "dumb" question you've asked; Having extra damage/invisibility doesn't make stealth gameplay viable/worth the effort. Not to mention, running around slaughtering everything with ease due to lolcantseeme isn't all that stealthy. Had the AI received some brains, they'd know to run/trigger the alert when they saw their comrades being chopped to bits by nothing. (I know I would have).

But of course, we don't play in something that has actual stealth mechanics. Warframe's stealth consists of, "If they didn't trigger the alarm, you're ninja!!!"

 

Ash having durability doesn't really help in Stealth situations either. If you're actually being stealthy, durability isn't a problem. Mobility and silent take downs are.

 

 

 

Teleport needs work yes, but it is getting much better. I use it when I have hobbled on Ash.

We agree to some extent here.

My thoughts on Teleport:

(Note: I still need to tweak this to fit 2.0 damage. But just keep the general idea in mind)

Teleport

Ash teleports 25/45/45/50 meters to an enemy target and strikes them, dealing 300/450/600/750 damage. Living targets recieve a 1/1/2/3 second stun. [innate Silence] [stun] [Effected by Power Strength and similar mods]

- Cast on unalerted enemies, Teleport deals Armor Piercing damage. Alert enemies recieve Blade damage.

 

- Upon teleporting behind his selected target, Ash draws the blades from his arms and strikes the enemy. A small, 1-2 second animation plays out (similar to those of Bladestorm).

 

- Successfully killing the target with Teleport will not alert any enemies.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt at killing the target will yield a 1/1/2/3 second stun, giving Ash the opportunity to perform a melee stealth attack (or use of silenced guns). [Not effected by mods] (target will be alert if still alive after stun recovery)

 

- Stunned enemy will have a colored lining, decided by the Energy Palette your Ash has on.

 

- An unsuccessful attempt on killing the target will alert enemies within a 10 meter radius on all mod levels. [Not effected by mods]

 

- Stun works on all armored units. Stealth Attack retains all current limits.

 

- Stealth attack does not apply to bosses. Stun does not effect heavy bosses. (Phorid, J3 Golem, Kela)

 

- Ash cannot teleport to Allies

 

- You do not gain the stealth attack opportunity on alert enemies, only stun.

 

Orignal Post

 

 

 

Bladestorm isn't meant to crowd control it is meant to kill, if it were to do like proposed in this thread and take a shorter amount of time and also  target the opponents with the most HP it would fit in quite well.

 

It does a poor job killing. It may hit high, but the execution time is far too long compared to his bretheren.

Let's add to the fact that, like Teleport and Shuriken, it has no stealth capability. Unless you've got the right mods + energy (may even need a Catalyst/Forma for costs), you can't take out X many targets in a room without giving notification of your presence.

 

It's a good panic button, and maybe Ash needs one in case his cover is blown. But that's all it is; A good panic button.

If you wanted to kill quickly, many other frames could do it faster. Hell, unless I'm fighting all MOA's, I can usually mow a room down faster with my Braton Prime than blade storm. (can't say the same verse a Molecular Prime)

*^ Am I the only one seeing that? Spoiler bug?*

 

My biggest concern for Ash is that he fails to meet his own standards for his field of expertise.

His only save for being a Stealth Warframe is Smoke Bomb. That's not enough. One ability shouldn't be what allows a frame to barely meet their role.

 

He does damage, and can do damage while invisible. I don't feel stealthy using him. I don't think "stealth" when I hear or read about Ash.

 

DE can simply change his description to "survivalist" instead of "stealthy." My arguments would be invalid, and we could all move on with life.

Personally, I want them to revamp stealth and tweak Ash to meet that field like he should.

However, I don't hold hopes that he'll be given more purpose in his supposed role anytime soon.

Edited December 13, 2013 by MagnusFury