Some Concerns From An Average Player

[XinCer]

With the jungle and yet another warframe arriving I am starting to feel a bit duped. The reasons for these feelings are many but maybe the biggest one is the release pace of the content. While it is true that someone involved with the art of the game will not be able to solve things regarding code or balance issues that person could improve on existing content within his or her area. Phobos would be a prime example of this, some areas are just horrible in survival, a ton of enemies with aoe splash damage and little to no working cover or just a tunnel where you will get knocked around and blown up.

Map design is not the only thing that someone working with art could work on. In the store there is a very limited set of items you can use to customize your frames, why is this? Is not warframe supposed to generate revenue based on its shop? Cosmetic items interfere very little with the actual gameplay so why are there no alternative models for existing frames only a reskin pack.

The excuse that it is a manpower issue do not hold when looking at the speed new frames are developed in. New animation sets would also be a viable revenue source so why is nothing done? Why do I mostly use the store to buy orokin reactors/catalysts to put my item at their base power level?

The varying quality of the current frames is to say the least worrying since every new frame released increases the list of things to revisit. The frames in themselves are not besides their abilities very different since there are so few stats that we as players can actually play around with. All base stats are fixed so are their level 30 stats. Even with mods you do not gain a lot of variety since there are so many must have mods and the few stat increasing mods have their numbers with 100%+ modifiers most of the time.

Having such huge modifiers really hinders variety in builds since one mod do what many combined items and mods should do. A maxed serration mod will increase the base damage of 10 to 26, that is for every 1 damage the maxed serration one deals 2.6 damage. That is a huge increase in power and already sets the tone for horrible issues with scaling. It is a pretty big issue if the lanka can deal 800 damage with one shot and 10k+ with the next.

The variety and actual variance with frames and their loadout is further diminished by the simple fact that you want your mods to do two things, let you live and let you kill. Everything that increases your life expectancy is good and so is everything that increases the damage you can output.

For the damage AoE is king, and AoE frames are to say the least fun to play with. However the fun is rather onesided when a nova will clear room after room after room with its ult. It is the ultimate ability of a frame sure it should be impressive both visually and game play wise but should it be the ability you always use? Currently a lot of maps are filled with various AoE abilities competing for kills and you can not blame the players for this, players will use the tools available to them. Saying you should not use x if you feel it is wrong is a bit naive. If x is strong and makes a player better x will be used to save time and increase the rate of power gain/rewards.

The whole ult spam fest is just a result of a poorly thought out system, the energy pools are big enough and abilities can be made cheap enough that their costs are irrelevant. The only time the energy bar is of concern is till the first energy fill up, after that it is spam away. Everything involving stat mechanics in this game feels a bit like sitting in an old church, old fashioned and uncomfortable. Just like in church their ways are old and no matter or arguing they will stick to them.

The balance of warframe is pretty much its pandoras box, the devs seems to be shy about discussing it and actually give hard information about mechanics and stats and expected performance of weapons/frames. The focus seems to be on throwing stuff at the player base to keep them from wondering too much about why they play the game and would be willing to support it. Every release add a new shiny that you want, that shiny is usually better than the last shiny. A penta unmodded will deal more damage single target than any of the snipers will do unmodded. Why is that, is that planned? Why do the soma outperform the supra?

What is the idea with the prime items? Prime stuff takes a lot of time and effort to gain through the rng system that is so embraced. Sadly these prime items do not offer anything of power game play wise vs their store bought items. A soma is better than every single prime weapon. So what is the idea with them, just another shiny item to get?

Where is the promised play the way you want? Where is the utility, oh on the list... That list is pretty long now and every new release adds to it. Why is super jump an ability for 1 frame, I would think that jumping high in a high tech suit boosted by powers of the void would be pretty standard. Super jump could be a utility skill available to all frames but currently utility is on the list along with pretty much every single frame depending on live stream.

Is there a plan to actually address the many issues deeply rooted in warframe? The armor 2.0 says no since the dual scaling of health/armor is still there which it was supposed to address. The only thing armor 2.0 added was more fluff and huge modifiers but the core issue still remains. Currently this is a very real pattern for the warframe development and makes me feel a bit duped. Thanks for reading.

TLDR : reading is good for you, do it.

[A_MALLARD_DUCK]

TLDR : reading is good for you, do it.

 

[Slayblaze]

Those are great observations and some good questions which many of us have been wondering about and asking the same thing, Basically, if someone is NOT asking these questions it means they belong to that group of players who allow themselves to be distracted "by the shinys being thrown at them" and they have not actually looked too deeply into some of the current shortcomings in the state of the game. I think there have been some good steps in the direction of addressing some of the deeper problems, but the thing is - the current method has proven to be very effective and the players are falling for it, so why try too hard to mess with what works?

 

If players are content to grind and re-forma their weapons and grind some more for a frame they already have except with gold paint added then why mess with success? The majority of the playerbase --even the seasoned vets-- just love anything golden and tagged as "Prime" so I don't really see anything much changing anytime soon.

[Nagisawa]

Survival should be in an 'arena' like Defense missions are, truthfully.

[notionphil]

TLDR : reading is good for you, do it.

 

pretty funny, you nailed just about every persistent issue that veterans have been griping about for months on the forum.

[Ganpot]

I agree in part; DE is focusing too much on content production, and not enough on continued quality assurance.  In the end, that strategy will end up killing the game. 

 

However, the sound design, art assets (including animations), and level design are showing far less signs of deterioration than any other areas of the game.  New map tiles remain consistently interesting and fresh, with lots of hidden areas but a (usually) straight-forward enough path to the objective.  Sounds are varied and rarely jarring.  I'm actually surprised how great the voice-work is, considering they just use normal employees.  Art assets possess distinct styles and a unique visual identity. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of things that should have been cleaned up already: A lot of the early weapons look really bad or bland compared to newer ones (compare Mire to Dual Ichor, for example).  There's a lot of animation errors and some not-so-subtle clipping issues (although that tends to happen in every game).  Still, the teams responsible for these areas of the game have largely demonstrated their willingness to go back and fix older areas which have broken down.  The Gram was reworked from scratch, the Lotus' lines have all been re-recorded for consistency, and map tiles are occasionally tweaked and optimized.  I can only hope that behavior continues into the future. 

 

That is in stark contrast to the gameplay and balance teams.  Almost every major revision they've tried has either felt halfhearted or failed miserably.  Warframe has the potential to be Ninja Gaiden + Mass Effect + Vanquish (in other words, the greatest game ever), but it's utterly failing to live up to its potential.  Power creep is a massive problem, and absolutely nothing in the game is balanced properly.  The stamina system is artificially restricting and annoying.  Melee combat feels like an afterthought (I'm aware that it is being reworked, but I'm still worried about it based on DE's track record).  There are few legitimate ways to reliably avoid damage (the hallmark of any challenging but fair game). 

[_mangomen_]

You pretty much wrote exactly what I've been thinking, sadly.

 

My only guess is that DE makes plenty of income from all the potatoes and casual players that just buy weapons and frames, so the core issues you speak of are firmly on the back burner. Maybe they are struggling and wish they could expand their team and improve the core issues, but I find that pretty hard to believe.

 

I like to use a weapon or frame at least until level 15 or so before deciding if it is potato worthy, but for the most part, if you want to have fun or be able to keep up, your gear needs a potato. Now, since November first I have got very many potatoes from alerts, and really have only needed to buy a few, but I also have no job and no life, and rarely miss an alert. Also, I am enjoying this game enough that I wanted to spend some money on it, I did not feel like I had too. But more colors, animations and cosmetic items would be nice, for sure. And I am pretty sure if I was working and had limited time to play I would have no problem buying my way out of some of the grind, even if that is the core of the gameplay.

 

This game does have amazing potential, and it is kind of sad to read things like this and just totally agree with them. I like to be optimistic, and hope that DE will address the many issues you speak of.

[ensignvidiot]

Ninja Gaiden + Mass Effect + Vanquish (in other words, the greatest game ever),

 

 

Those are the only words I truly held onto in your post. If DE would make that their goal, I'd donate $50 a week to see it happen.

 

In a perfect world

 

Warframe would have

The Movement and Mobility of VANQUISH

The Gun Handling of MASS EFFECT 3

And the Visceral Melee Combat of Ninja Gaiden

Edited December 16, 2013 by ensignvidiot

[rhoenix]

Those are the only words I truly held onto in your post. If DE would make that their goal, I'd donate $50 a week to see it happen.

 

In a perfect world

 

Warframe would have

The Movement and Mobility of VANQUISH

The Gun Handling of MASS EFFECT 3

And the Visceral Melee Combat of Ninja Gaiden

Agreed there. Those changes, coupled with more immersive & dynamic missions, plus long-term Tenno goals per region would go a long way toward giving Warframe some serious longevity.

[KoshLovesYou]

Some of the best movement abilities sadly came from a game with horrible AI that killed it, Bethseda's BRINK. Their SMART movement system was a blast, sadly the poor chokepointy map design and moronic AI killed major interest in the stylized game. It'd be a GREAT thing to look at for improving movement in Warframe.

 

I will counter this in your OP post: The devs have gotten a LOT less shy about sharing stuff. If you haven't been checking out the livestreams, you should be. The dev specific forum sections are still a bit slow, but way more feedback prone now than they were before.

[EvilKam]

..., the energy pools are big enough and abilities can be made cheap enough that their costs are irrelevant. The only time the energy bar is of concern is till the first energy fill up, after that it is spam away.

 

I don't know what game you are playing.  I know for a FACT that the game in question is NOT Warframe.  I know this because of all of the times I have had to slashdash myself out of a tight spot, only to hear a weak buzzer informing me that another revive was about to be burned off.

 

MAYBE at the END game your power pool is this "unlimited reservoir of godly power" you seem to hint at, but as an Excalibur with a Reactor, no.  I have been killed far too many times to rely on my power pool and the blue orbs who often do not drop when I need them.

 

When we get a "All powers cost 1/10 normal energy" mod, THEN I will agree with you.

 

Maybe they are struggling and wish they could expand their team and improve the core issues, but I find that pretty hard to believe.

 

This is the most likely case.  Instead of adding to the enjoyment of gameplay, DE is adding to the FARMING of gameplay.  They want to nerf team affinity to prevent us from taking crap gear into missions to speed through the ranking of it.

 

Guess how often I will be upgrading gear?  The answer is VERY rarely.

 

However, this will boost sales of Affinity boosters.

[Ganpot]

I don't know what game you are playing.  I know for a FACT that the game in question is NOT Warframe.  I know this because of all of the times I have had to slashdash myself out of a tight spot, only to hear a weak buzzer informing me that another revive was about to be burned off.

 

MAYBE at the END game your power pool is this "unlimited reservoir of godly power" you seem to hint at, but as an Excalibur with a Reactor, no.  I have been killed far too many times to rely on my power pool and the blue orbs who often do not drop when I need them.

 

When we get a "All powers cost 1/10 normal energy" mod, THEN I will agree with you.

 

Once you've been playing for 300 hours or so, you should actually be able to spam abilities almost constantly without running out of energy.  For example, a maxed Streamline drops the cost of Slash Dash down to 17.5 energy.  The ability lasts for approximately 1 second, which can be extended to 1.58 seconds with maxed Constitution and Continuity.  Assuming you are in a group of 4 players using Energy Siphon, you are gaining 2.4 energy every second, not counting energy pick-ups.

 

That means you can use Slash Dash an average of once per 4.6 seconds without running out of energy in the long run.  If you have a maxed Flow mod equipped and are max level, you can spam Slash Dash continuously 65 times before you run out of energy.  And that's without using any Corrupted mods, which would let you min/max even further. 

 

Note: While I hope that all of my math is correct, it is very possible that I've miscalculated some stuff.  But in general, the point still stands: you can use your powers a LOT if you have the right mods. 

[Nyxem]

Coming from League of Legends, I find the speed of content here disturbingly similar to the first few years of League. That is, it could work. But that isn't what people want Warframe to be, especially with the difficulty of actually GETTING the frames. League worked on the fast-release model because the main focus isn't on the grinding. It's on the game itself. They've slowed down the rapid pace of new champion releases, and it still works.

Aesthetic options are always nice. I don't think players really need new functional content at the moment - too much, and it'll be overwhelming to the new players.

I'm looking at the number of Warframes available and I'm just... confused. On one hand, it's great that we have so many skillsets to choose from. On the other, that's a lot of time put into grinding for the materials and ranking to 30. From what I've seen in later levels (and personal experience with level 30+ bosses/mooks) you start losing that versatility as the game progresses.

Ramblings of a new player:
Abilities should have good scaling. The numbers are going to be complicated, but they should be relevant in later fights as a source of damage, not just utility. That's one of the really fun parts about Warframe.

In order to balance out abilities, add cooldowns? Ultimates should still feel ultimate in the endgame. More talking about the flat damage ultimates than anything else - those could deal flat damage + a % of target's health in damage (before resistances) and have some other system in place so that they can't be as spammable.

I've already seen Mag's Crush being spammed to clear mobs on Mars missions. Survivals turn into ability/weapon-spamming when enemies hit level 35. I popped into a game with higher level players... meanwhile, I'm running around using Bullet Attractor/Pull to maximize my utility.

Weapons: I get that there's supposed to be a sense of progression, but that messes with customizability. Too many threads on this already.

Edit: In conclusion, I'm coming into Warframe expecting a more versatile, casual PvE FPS. I know I'll be disappointed because I'm expecting way too much (or little?) out of a game where many beta players are pretty competitive. There's just a lot that I feel would make this game appeal to not just the FPS community - the variety makes it fun. It just needs what we're doing here - user feedback.

@KoshLovesYou: Hm... I really should check the livestreams to get a better idea of what's happening. Overall the forums seem like there's not a lot of dev-friendly discussion - good ideas get covered up in more practical discussions about how players are dealing with the issues at the moment, and I'm not sure if the devs are actually taking a look at them because of that.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Nyxem

[Pendragon1951]

I have been playing for quite a while now, I just made Rank 10 and I have 887 hours of game play under my belt, so speaking from a veteran's point of view I have to agree with almost all the OP said. I mentioned in another another thread about how the DEVs are like magicians in that they use misdirection to turn your attention away from current problems by holding a new shiny in one hand while on the other hand promoting, what I believe is, the failed Armor 2.0. In regards to the information that comes from the Livestreams it's like watching a room of politicians and all the double talk that ensues that by the end your wondering if any information was actually given. I still am angst at the idea of them releasing this new Warframe on Wednesday when Valkyr has not even been worked on and correct one of it's biggest mistakes of it's shields.  All in all I like others believe Warframe has great potential and I hope many of it's glaring problems is taken care off one that is quite prevalent is the Strict-Nat problem this has become quite an problem for me because it does not allow anyone who is not of my dojo to be invited so I can trade with them.  

[spaam16]

hi 

me and my friends crated a dojo but when we go inside we can not see each other.

cam someone help me.

:b

[EvilKam]

Once you've been playing for 300 hours or so, you should actually be able to spam abilities almost constantly without running out of energy.  For example, a maxed Streamline <snip> maxed Constitution and Continuity.  Assuming you are in a group of 4 players using Energy Siphon, you are gaining 2.4 energy every second, not counting energy pick-ups.

 

That means you can use Slash Dash an average of once per 4.6 seconds without running out of energy in the long run.  If you have a maxed Flow mod equipped and are max level, you can spam Slash Dash continuously 65 times before you run out of energy.  And that's without using any Corrupted mods, which would let you min/max even further. 

 

Constitution?  Continuity?  Energy Siphon?  Never seen any of those mods drop on any of the missions in Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, or Jupiter, although I can't make it past IO on Jupiter, and got frustrated with missions on Mars and Saturn.  I'm farming Quirinus for Serrations at the moment.

 

I can play with groups containing as many as 1 person.  I wish I didn't have strict NAT.  I also wish I had a magical Helicopter and a working Green Lantern ring and lantern.  Wishes don't come true.

 

So, waited for 20 minutes on M. Prime, just letting my energy charge... didn't generate any energy.  Oh, you must be talking about mods that I can only get after I get further in the game.  That doesn't help, because without those mods, I won't get to the missions that drop those mods.  It's my original Serration dilemma all over again.

 

"If a new player gets a serration, they can use it to get to mars, so they can take on Quirinis, where they might be able to get a serration.  However, without a Serration, they will never get to Mars, and therefore, can not get a Serration."

 

Okay, sure, "trading" is a solution to this, but why is that the ONLY solution?

[rhoenix]

Constitution?  Continuity?  Energy Siphon?  Never seen any of those mods drop on any of the missions in Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, or Jupiter, although I can't make it past IO on Jupiter, and got frustrated with missions on Mars and Saturn.  I'm farming Quirinus for Serrations at the moment.

Constitution is one of the mods you can acquire through running Nightmare mode missions; nearly all the Nightmare Mods are useful, but Constitution is the one that specifically affects power duration.

Energy Siphon you'll only see appear through Alert missions - the best I can suggest is keep clearing more areas as you can.

For Serration specifically, I'd suggest running a Survival mission on Mercury or Venus, and just last as long as you can (at least 20+ minutes, preferably more). Serration is one of the rewards you can get per 5 minutes (after the 20 minute mark), and the chance of you getting it gets better the longer you last. (It also gets better with higher-level Survival missions on other planets, but don't worry about them just yet.)

Split Chamber only drops rarely from Survival missions, as well as the Raptor boss (on Europa), and the boss General Sargus Ruk (on Saturn). Believe me when I say you'll need this one too. It'll start being available as a Survival reward after you hit the 20 minute mark (according to the wiki, that's when the rewards graduate from tier 2 to tier 3, and tier 3 is the reward tier you get Split Chamber and Serration from.)

Edited December 19, 2013 by rhoenix

[fatpig84]

Armour/Shield/Health/Damage curves have been modified. We’ve lowered the “bullet sponge” to high level enemies, but they now deal more damage. The armour curve was radically dropped. The health and shields curves dropped slightly as well. However, damage output went up.

Everyone now dies faster !! Edited December 19, 2013 by fatpig84

[LightstealKnight]

Survival should be in an 'arena' like Defense missions are, truthfully.

 

 

Yes but the player should chose where that "arena" should be.  To fix this, make life support drops actually get teleported in, or dropped from the sky where the game host currently is.  This way, the player can chose which room is best to make a stand.

[MaxiTB]

I agree with the OP in most parts but want to add a twist:

Warframe is badly balanced from start to end. In fact if you start as a new player it's just annoying - you will barely have energy, do no damage to speak of and mobs eat bullets like nothing (MK1 doesn't make it better). It just takes ages to get enough mods to build a decent frame and the potato mechanic makes things 100% worse. After you maxed and formaed the essentials things turn upside down - suddenly energy is no/little issue.

In other words the leveling pace in Warframe is completely broken and seem to be designed to just spend money so you can actually contribute something on a mission - otherwise you play over 100 hours just to become useful in low level areas.

BTW I played my first 100 hours Loki solo only: Yeah, you can guess how this works out. It's nearly impossible to pass Vor on Mercury; I think I didn't made it pass Earth. So much for balancing/pacing.

Edited December 19, 2013 by MaxiTB

[EvilKam]

Constitution is one of the mods you can acquire through running Nightmare mode missions

Energy Siphon you'll only see appear through Alert missions - the best I can suggest is keep clearing more areas as you can.

For Serration specifically, ...

 

Split Chamber only drops rarely from Survival missions, as well as the Raptor boss (on Europa), and the boss General Sargus Ruk (on Saturn). Believe me when I say you'll need this one too.

 

Nightmare - I can survive for about 2 or 3 minutes on nightmare missions in earth.  Since it takes an entire clip to kill one single Corpus...

 

I ran an alert, didn't get an Energy Siphon.  maybe I'll have luck in the future.

 

Serration I've FINALLY found on Quirinis.  I'm farming to get more for my clan, and for future n00bs.

 

Split chamber from Europa?  JUPITER is OBLITERATING ME.  Sargus Ruk... haven't tried him yet.  Maybe after I get another catalyst and another reactor, I'll try to build either Rhino or Nyx, and I'll build either Gorgon or Hind, and see if I like them, and when I've got them maxxed out, I'll attempt Ruk.  I'd really much rather upgrade my Braton, but there is no way to increase the base damage without forma and... I think 2 extra mod slots...  Well, I could drop Shred from the list, but I really like being able to shoot through railings.

 

fatpig84, on 19 Dec 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Quote:   However, damage output went up

 

 

Everyone now dies faster !!

 Yeah.  INCLUDING ME.  That's what I'M reading here.  "Hey, those Corpus on Jupiter are really really hard to kill"  "OH GOD IT HURTS SO MUCH MORE NOW!"

Edited December 20, 2013 by EvilKam

[Zephyric_Reaper]

I read the part of why no new models for current frames. 

I would buy new (decent) cosmetic items all day, yes. 

[rhoenix]

Nightmare - I can survive for about 2 or 3 minutes on nightmare missions in earth.  Since it takes an entire clip to kill one single Corpus...

 

I ran an alert, didn't get an Energy Siphon.  maybe I'll have luck in the future.

 

Serration I've FINALLY found on Quirinis.  I'm farming to get more for my clan, and for future n00bs.

 

Split chamber from Europa?  JUPITER is OBLITERATING ME.  Sargus Ruk... haven't tried him yet.  Maybe after I get another catalyst and another reactor, I'll try to build either Rhino or Nyx, and I'll build either Gorgon or Hind, and see if I like them, and when I've got them maxxed out, I'll attempt Ruk.  I'd really much rather upgrade my Braton, but there is no way to increase the base damage without forma and... I think 2 extra mod slots...  Well, I could drop Shred from the list, but I really like being able to shoot through railings.

 

fatpig84, on 19 Dec 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

 Yeah.  INCLUDING ME.  That's what I'M reading here.  "Hey, those Corpus on Jupiter are really really hard to kill"  "OH GOD IT HURTS SO MUCH MORE NOW!"

When the Alert for an Energy Siphon appears, you'll see it specifically as a reward in-game before you enter the Alert. They show up at random, so just clear what areas you can, and keep an eye on the Warframe Alerts' twitter feed, or through one of the Steam groups.

As for Survival missions, I'd actually suggest Apollodorus on Mercury - it'll be easier to last beyond 20 minutes there.

Redirection is another necessary mod to have, and they're dropped by Elite Grineer Lancers, which you should see at about the 20 minute mark, even on Apollodorus, if you don't already have it.