Toxic Type Is Wrong

[Makya]

It is STILL morally repulsive as all hell, but at least i can understand that it has a presence for a reason, that the Tenno can choose a easier method to be more "efficient" by essentially being an amoral psychotic (Y'know, instead of us regular moral psychotic that roam about the solar system.)

Morals are a fickle thing, what might detest one might make the other shrug. Remember, these Tenno also call in their ranks one who magnatizing a living being's bones to one another  until they are crushed into very tiny squishy spheres, another rips out their souls to be their toy things to use to murder their other enemies, and many other ways. Why would you question the morals or the mental stability of betrayers?

[LukeAura]

Luke, i am seeing you using massive amounts of that pesky "Science" i kept telling you was useless next to the "Space Ninja" argument.

 

Toxic deteriorates the guy from the inside out, i would dare say, corroding him from the inside, so once again "Corrosive" would make a better Toxic then Toxic could. And are we really going about shooting the flu in people?... Because that idea, again, turns my stomach and makes it do fips as i'm trying to hold my breakfast in. Although i do guess it's a personal issue...

 

I did said Blast is allright, and it seems to be like that anyways. Again, the concept of blasting stuff is pretty cool, explosions should always be an element, Borderlands style. You can't not have fun while blowing stuff up, except in CoD, i guess.

 

Sure plasma would not be better then Radiation in any way, but did the effect HAD to be yet another form of poisoning someone in yet another disgusting cancer-inducing way? Like i said, i have no problem with going around shooting lasers at people, but did that had to relate back to poison as well? It doesn't even have Toxic in the combo! X__X

Space ninja is the catch all for everything in warframe that breaks science. It does not invalidate whatever loosely follows science. And if space ninja then fire+electricity = potato damage because space ninja. If space ninja, then Cold+Toxin = Virus because space ninja. If you're going to ask for an explanation or reason without science or logic(Which will inherently be based off of science) then the answer is "Because space ninja".  

It's pseudo science, Warframe's version of mitochlorians in the bloodstream that determine how well one can manipulate the force. Curse my count for being so low. You can't remove science from the equation. Warframe has the basics of science, and then has advanced civilization tech-powered suits that explain whatever breaks current understandings. 

Toxic deteriorates bodily systems, Corrosive eats everything. Toxic is a poison that slowly deteriorates the foes body from the inside out, attacking specific bodily systems likely blood/muscles/nerves depending, it is precise. Virus damage attacks the immune. And Corrosive just indiscriminately melts, not necessarily melts likely it is a specialized form of corrosive material designed to specifically react with the metals in armor to burn through them, getting it inside a being will not be pleasant, especially if it reacts with the iron in their blood, but it isn't as devastating as a toxin. Which is why Toxin will procc straight to health, and corrosive will procc on the external armor. 

It seems you find most of it ethically wrong though. Which, fair, I have an issue with gassing people. That's starting to get a little morbid for my tastes. But again, we're space-ninjas. Poisons are just tools of the trade.

 

[ReiganCross]

It seems you find most of it ethically wrong though. Which, fair, I have an issue with gassing people. That's starting to get a little morbid for my tastes. But again, we're space-ninjas. Poisons are just tools of the trade.

 

And there in lies the deal with the whole topic... Sure it's a little bit wierd, but i don't expect reality when i slip inside a Warframe to kill aliens. I don't really care if Toxin + Cold makes scientific sense. What i do care is about what it makes me feel, because games are an emotional experienced meant to be experience with the irrational side of your brain. Some cool games sometimes tickle the rational size by including realism, but others do well without even switching nods to the realm of reality.

 

And what i feel here is that i find this part of the game to be kind of ethically wrong, indeed. This is the "Wrong" that the whole spectrum of Toxic brings, not some sort of "it's not real" thing, more like "it feels dirty". The main 2 combinations that i find problem with (Gas and Viral) are fairly scientifically based on real things as people in this topic have pointed out and have some ground in common gaming sense as well. But it does not feel like options we should be comfortable with. That never stopped games from being made, but i would rather not descend into gassing my enemies like a portable concentration camp. I understand that Ninjas should be poisonous guys, but generally the poisons are subtle like, well, cyanide and other very specific stuff, that usually have a very controlled action. Normally only one guy is dead, without any trace of assassination, like a precision strike that targets the a single individual. When we switch over to making the whole battlefield sick with some indescribable biological attack just so their gun have a little less strength then we're just reaching into evil territory and i don't care how all of them are as vile as satan, this is still just plain wrong.

 

Which brings me to the balance of "Efficiency" versus "Morality" that i though was kind of a good thing. Giving us the option of being so morally repulsive in the hopes it gives us an edge over our enemies can be turned into a very good theme should it be called attention to. So, the ethical problems of using toxic weaponry in the battlefield the Tenno bring can become an excellent element unique to Warframe. Now i just hope DE doesn't just ignore it and pretend it's completely innocent to keep on gassing an entire cloud city of enemies just because they happen not to agree with us.

Edited January 3, 2014 by ReiganCross

[rhoenix]

And there in lies the deal with the whole topic... Sure it's a little bit wierd, but i don't expect reality when i slip inside a Warframe to kill aliens. I don't really care if Toxin + Cold makes scientific sense. What i do care is about what it makes me feel, because games are an emotional experienced meant to be experience with the irrational side of your brain. Some cool games sometimes tickle the rational size by including realism, but others do well without even switching nods to the realm of reality.

 

And what i feel here is that i find this part of the game to be kind of ethically wrong, indeed. This is the "Wrong" that the whole spectrum of Toxic brings, not some sort of "it's not real" thing, more like "it feels dirty". The main 2 combinations that i find problem with (Gas and Viral) are fairly scientifically based on real things as people in this topic have pointed out and have some ground in common gaming sense as well. But it does not feel like options we should be comfortable with. That never stopped games from being made, but i would rather not descend into gassing my enemies like a portable concentration camp. I understand that Ninjas should be poisonous guys, but generally the poisons are subtle like, well, cyanide and other very specific stuff, that usually have a very controlled action. Normally only one guy is dead, without any trace of assassination, like a precision strike that targets the a single individual. When we switch over to making the whole battlefield sick with some indescribable biological attack just so their gun have a little less strength then we're just reaching into evil territory and i don't care how all of them are as vile as satan, this is still just plain wrong.

 

Which brings me to the balance of "Efficiency" versus "Morality" that i though was kind of a good thing. Giving us the option of being so morally repulsive in the hopes it gives us an edge over our enemies can be turned into a very good theme should it be called attention to. So, the ethical problems of using toxic weaponry in the battlefield the Tenno bring can become an excellent element unique to Warframe. Now i just hope DE doesn't just ignore it and pretend it's completely innocent to keep on gassing an entire cloud city of enemies just because they happen not to agree with us.

Let's not get into hyperbole to make your point here.

You have issues with the idea of Toxic damage being an option, because you don't like the idea of the "good guys" using toxins. Okay, fine. But that's a long way from "pretending its completely innocent to keep on gassing an entire cloud city of enemies."

So, I ask again - what would you replace it with that would make sense, given that there have to be a base of four elements from which to make combinations?

[ReiganCross]

Let's not get into hyperbole to make your point here.

You have issues with the idea of Toxic damage being an option, because you don't like the idea of the "good guys" using toxins. Okay, fine. But that's a long way from "pretending its completely innocent to keep on gassing an entire cloud city of enemies."

So, I ask again - what would you replace it with that would make sense, given that there have to be a base of four elements from which to make combinations?

 

All i'm saying is that they react absolutely null to whatever the hell i do with them, no matter how inhumane it is... But i guess i did went a little too far into assuming DE's intention.

 

And i have little idea of what an appropriate alternative would be. Personally i think it should only be the good old 3 from back before 2.0. Maybe if they want Toxic so much, take it away from being an elemental mod and just add the "Toxic" separately without needing to combine with the rest.

 

I'm just saying it feels wrong, i would need like a week of research to attempt to come up with an alternative. Especially because i kind of agree with their stance of not using stupid elements like "Air" and "Earth", which is about as interesting as seeing someone throwing rocks and blowing at them really hard.

[rhoenix]

All i'm saying is that they react absolutely null to whatever the hell i do with them, no matter how inhumane it is... But i guess i did went a little too far into assuming DE's intention.

 

And i have little idea of what an appropriate alternative would be. Personally i think it should only be the good old 3 from back before 2.0. Maybe if they want Toxic so much, take it away from being an elemental mod and just add the "Toxic" separately without needing to combine with the rest.

 

I'm just saying it feels wrong, i would need like a week of research to attempt to come up with an alternative. Especially because i kind of agree with their stance of not using stupid elements like "Air" and "Earth", which is about as interesting as seeing someone throwing rocks and blowing at them really hard.

Alright, I agree with you that Air or Earth shouldn't be options, not only because their roles are already covered (electricity for Air, and Impact damage for Earth), but because they wouldn't add anything within the context of how the universe works.

We all know that the damage mods don't literally add fire, cold, toxins, or electricity to the rounds we fire or weapons we swing. Those titles are just placeholders that show the effects of whatever method was used to apply that extra damage to your weapon.

I think this goes back to how you perceive the Tenno more than anything else. If they are considered "ninjas in space," then toxic damage fits - ninjas assassinated people with poisons pretty often in real history, just because it was easier - and because only samurai could wield proper swords.

If the Tenno were created by the Orokin Empire (which I'll remind you made liberal use of mind control) to be semi-autonomous special operations nightmares for their enemies, then toxic damage also makes sense. The Orokin Empire would want its enemies not only dealt with, but made an example of as a warning to others.

Now, I grant you, this is likely why the Tenno struck the Orokin leadership down, if the Stalker's memory after a thousand years is to be believed. I think he is right, but he is also limited by his perspective.

It sounds more like you want to be the hero of this story, and by extension, the Tenno should be as well. The problem with this is that we're already asked to kill diplomats (Councilor Vay Hek). Oh sure, it's said he's assassinated other diplomats, fine, but this is still a politically-motivated assassination. It's nowhere near as morally clean-cut as "go to the Orokin Derelict and kill the old Infested thing that keeps sending us tokens of its esteem."

While I agree with you that I'd want the Tenno to be the good guys of this story, and that while a small amount of moral ambiguity can help make a story more interesting, the Tenno are pretty much the best choice of a bad lot of choices. Observe:

- Grineer. Cloned soldiers, arrogant, thinks everything that's not them deserves to get ground to dust.

- Corpus. Greedy little bastards who'll happily sell out family just to get ahead, and are responsible for Tenno beingcaptured and made into unwilling test subjects.

- Infested. Do I need to say more?

- Tenno. Ancient warriors who were all put to sleep for bringing down the Orokin Empire, a thousand years ago, who are now waking up to cause trouble.

As I said, the Tenno are the best of a bad lot of choices. Moreover, the "hero" characters in many games have used toxins or poison, despite being the "good guys."

It may be best to look at Toxic damage as just a requirement to get Corrosive damage, and leave it at that in your mind.

[Makya]

I am still wondering how setting your targets ablaze, causing them to panic and quickly try to put it out, only to result in them being burned alive and leaving a visibly charred corpse is morally fine but using bio warfare is not.

[DeejayPwny]

You're playing as a space NINJA. The ninja part is very important. The ninjas of old used whatever tools necessary to kill their targets, and in Warframe we're doing the same. Yes, in the real world toxins, gassing, disease, and all these other damage types are highly disgusting, but this is a GAME. If you can't separate a game from real life, maybe you shouldn't be playing said game.

[Makya]

I would also like to note that Toxic was also in Dark Sector, called 'Enferon'.

[Archistopheles]

 

First, there is no place for actual science in a world where flames bursts from a woman's hand because she's using a very funny piece of arm-gear.

 

That was going to be my answer to your opening post, but I thought you wanted to have an actual discussion...

[ReiganCross]

I would also like to note that Toxic was also in Dark Sector, called 'Enferon'.

 

Yeah, i bought Dark Sector, i played it and it wasn't all that good. I understand now why DE doesn't want to implement a chest-high-wall hugging system in the game and in fact, i kind of respect that position for it is more in line with classic FPS (Although this is a TPS... Ah, who cares, it's good not to hug chest-high-walls all the time.)

 

Also, Enferon?... It was kind of an Anti-Toxin to come up against the Technocyte Virus. So, kind of an attempt to make an airborne cure for a virus that completely wrecked your brain on levels so high that you become an un-intelligible creature akin to a zombie. I'm gonna give the anti-zombie gas a pass on the morality check.

 

That was going to be my answer to your opening post, but I thought you wanted to have an actual discussion...

 

A discussion on the morality of spraying a lethal virus to give us an edge in combat instead of a discussion about, well... The science of our aircraft and how it manages to clip into itself every time DE wants to have 4 extraction doors right next to eachother and kind of forgets there's supposed to be a big ship behind said doors.

Edited January 3, 2014 by ReiganCross

[Legionaire_Sprinkles]

Corrosive was certainly my favorite elemental type in Borderlands, even if it was really only amazingly effective against robots. Definitely a prevalent feature in lot of different games though, as we're not doing something silly like earth or air for elemental types. The combinations therein has nothing to do with other games, or even this particular topic you've created. It's one thing to hate on toxin, it's another to hate on my dearest corrosive or viral.

 Borderlands 2 had corrisive reserved for robots, but did you pay Borderlands 1? Persistent Defiler wrecked every enemy in that game, always the trusty Legendary Corrosive Revolver. Corrosive element wrecked like everything in Borderlands 1. As for this post? Meh he can go and be an offended prick about the rules of war being violated in a videogame.

[LukeAura]

 

A discussion on the morality of spraying a lethal virus to give us an edge in combat instead of a discussion about, well...

It's not just us using poisons. Corpus do use Radiation damage in their detron, Acrid, Torid, Stug are all technically poison associated grineer weapons, although they seem to never use them.  

Not to mention we are, at least if you believe it so, the righteous and the few, against the many, the mighty, the corrupt, and the oppressive. We should be using every tactic at our disposal. Our enemies will have no mercy on us given the chance so why should we on them?

 

[ReiganCross]

It's not just us using poisons. Corpus do use Radiation damage in their detron, Acrid, Torid, Stug are all technically poison associated grineer weapons, although they seem to never use them.  

Not to mention we are, at least if you believe it so, the righteous and the few, against the many, the mighty, the corrupt, and the oppressive. We should be using every tactic at our disposal. Our enemies will have no mercy on us given the chance so why should we on them?

 

Well, i'll just mention that the argument actually goes a little beyond that. You can immerse yourself in a discussion about whether or not we have a chance at war if we don't use every possible dirty trick we have at our disposal. If we start going that far ahead, we might need a little bit more world to discuss about. Right now every faction in this game is a little bit vague, and rhoenix's depiction of them is the only real thing we know for sure about this world.

 

I think this can generate a really unique thing to Warframe in the way the elements are positioned to be the methods of killing. Maybe they can flesh it out a bit more and drive home the fact that we can draw our own line of what's a humane form of killing and what's just unacceptable psychosis. It's essentially the difference between killing a man by decapitation and killing the same man by decapitation but violating his body in the process. And i mean flesh out the question in a way as to not diminish the fun of clearing out an entire battalion of enemies a day. Just a very cool possible sidenote that i really think should not be ignored.

 

@rhoenix by the way, i read your post, i just got nothing. It's a wrap, you said all that needs to be said about this.

Edited January 4, 2014 by ReiganCross

[rhoenix]

Well, i'll just mention that the argument actually goes a little beyond that. You can immerse yourself in a discussion about whether or not we have a chance at war if we don't use every possible dirty trick we have at our disposal. If we start going that far ahead, we might need a little bit more world to discuss about. Right now every faction in this game is a little bit vague, and rhoenix's depiction of them is the only real thing we know for sure about this world.

 

I think this can generate a really unique thing to Warframe in the way the elements are positioned to be the methods of killing. Maybe they can flesh it out a bit more and drive home the fact that we can draw our own line of what's a humane form of killing and what's just unacceptable psychosis. It's essentially the difference between killing a man by decapitation and killing the same man by decapitation but violating his body in the process. And i mean flesh out the question in a way as to not diminish the fun of clearing out an entire battalion of enemies a day. Just a very cool possible sidenote that i really think should not be ignored.

 

@rhoenix by the way, i read your post, i just got nothing. It's a wrap, you said all that needs to be said about this.

All of those things are well and good if all sides are equal.

They are most definitely not equal in Warframe. As I said above, story-wise, there are maybe a thousand Tenno or so, versus millions (at least) each of Grineer, Corpus, and Infested. At this point, efficiency has to come into play.

Now, this isn't to say that you should necessarily compromise your sense of ethics in such a situation, but consider that:

a) all Grineer are clones. After the dust settles of the inter-faction war for the Sol system in Warframe, very few Grineer are likely to be genetically viable to rebuild any population.

b) nearly all Corpus crew you encounter are indoctrinated and remotely controlled normal humans, from what I've been able to infer. Options aren't really given for how to deal with their indoctrination - but they are baseline humans, at least. Though reversing this indoctrination may not be possible now, they at least could contribute proper genetics toward rebuilding the solar system.

c) all Infested desire to devour, being driven by insatiable hunger. It's quite possible all the Ancients you see are actually Tenno that got eaten by the rampant virus, which makes them something of a tragedy. Nonetheless, there would be no place for Infested after the dust settles.

The true horror of war comes from finding that your enemy has the same face, same eyes, same hopes, and same fears that you do. That cannot be said to be the case here. The Tenno have to simultaneously demolish a very large military junta run by dim-witted and arrogant badly-cloned soldiers, a ruthless megacorporation that considers slavery to be a valid method for recruitment, and a large Infestation.

Given what's at stake, and what I'm up against as a Tenno every time I play this game, I have no ethical qualms about burning my enemies to ash, or corroding them into a small mass of bioplasm, if doing so allows me to effectively do my job.

I would immediately have a large problem if the Tenno ever were asked to attack and kill innocents. I do have some ethical qualms with some of the actions Tenno are asked to take right now, but as I said, it's by far the best of a bad set of choices.

[MageMeat]

Sorry, quick question.

How did we go from the realism of toxins and their elemental combinations to the morality of our weaponry?

 

 

Also, while I don't have any suggestions as to where it should be, I don't think this should be in Weapons Feedback.

[Nyxem]

Sorry, quick question.

How did we go from the realism of toxins and their elemental combinations to the morality of our weaponry?

Morality was one of OP's actual points, people just didn't interpret it that way at first.

Historically, ninjas were mercenaries. Poison and explosives were acceptable.

That said, I think they didn't have enough elements to do these combinations. But like how different things can fit under the idea of combustion (fire, heat, explosions) there is a vast variety of "chemical" weapons. Toxins, corrosive acids, biological weapons, with different means of delivery.

The idea of poisons is immoral in our world because it's dishonorable. Chemical weapons can have long-term impacts on the surrounding environment, and unintended collateral damage is much harder to prevent. Chemical and biological weapons are banned because of the effects they have on the victims, killing them slowly and painfully.

I don't think this is a huge issue in our world. Every faction is morally "dark," with the Tenno being the least of the evils. But we exterminate ships, frontier camps, and fight on both sides of a conflict that more resembles total war. In this world, morality is truly lacking. Whatever reasons the Lotus has when we support the Grineer/Corpus in Invasions just cements that. In terms of collateral damage, the reason our weapons don't destroy the environment is because the game engine doesn't support it.

Lethal injections are considered more humane than the electric chair, and certainly better than death by fire/freezing. Gas is more deadly chemicals, though not in the amount that we've used in battle. The area of effect is fairly small, and it dissipates quickly. Viral makes the least sense, factoring incubation time and whatnot. But if it programmed the body to create such an effective, lethal toxin that it would kill the victim quickly, you'd have a fairly fleeting death. Radiation kills VERY quickly in high doses, as your body just stops working.

My argument is this: Physical damage is arguably more humane, with quick executions.  Elemental damage can cause lingering effects. But isn't physical damage without killing essentially torture?

In the timespan that we're talking about, there isn't really a long period of time for the victim to feel pain. And elemental damage in general does more damage than physical.

I also have an issue with toxins and the idea of the status effects that they inflict, but that goes with all elemental effects as well. They are not what we would consider as normal effects of war, besides fire. And for that reason I'm okay with the system as it is. There's no collateral damage to speak of, because as far as we know, everyone who opposes us is exterminated.

[Kempeck]

It fits in just fine if you ask me. And the Corrosive combo melts Grineers. 

I use Blast and Acid in my Ignis with a boost from Armor Pierce.  I have thoroghly enjoyed the combinations.

[KittyDarkling]

    So to understand this,

 

1: The OP takes moral issue with some of the options that he doesn't have to use and wants them removed so those who dont have such moral objections cant use them.

 

2: There's a large discussion over the realism of a game mechanic that fits remarkably close to reality. Especially considering it grew from "Fire, Electricity, Ice, and what was already in the game just not accessible to the player 'toxic".

 

        is that about right?

 

    At the end of the day people need to understand that if a game was completely realistic it would be boring an unoriginal. Video games NEED a balance between realism and fun gameplay, and this is quite well balanced. They also need to understand that if there's an option in the game that they don't like, they dont have to use it. it wont hurt them, it wont ruin their lives, and they dont need to demand it's removal.

[ReiganCross]

    At the end of the day people need to understand that if a game was completely realistic it would be boring an unoriginal. Video games NEED a balance between realism and fun gameplay, and this is quite well balanced. They also need to understand that if there's an option in the game that they don't like, they dont have to use it. it wont hurt them, it wont ruin their lives, and they dont need to demand it's removal.

 

I found out during the progression of this Post that maybe i don't want it removed, just acknowledged as pretty darn evil methods of delivering death. I don't care how "Dark" our enemies are, we should be ashamed to be using such inhuman methods of killing. But honestly, what should be done in the game by that point? Eh, maybe not changing it at all might be a good call... I don't know, i have no idea what to do with the dilemma it poses the assassin as he chooses the method of killing, i just know it's something cool that Warframe have.

 

So just to be sure, I'm not demanding the removal of Toxic anymore! (It's still morally repulsive, but something so wrong has a place in the game if that's the discussion the game wishes to engage.)

Edited January 5, 2014 by ReiganCross

[DeejayPwny]

 

 

So just to be sure, I'm not demanding the removal of Toxic anymore! (It's still morally repulsive, but something so wrong has a place in the game if that's the discussion the game wishes to engage.)

The problem with that is that it's NOT a part of the (little) narrative (we have). We're ninjas, it's to be expected we use dirty, morally repugnant methods of assault. But, as I said in my last post; it is just a game. Don't take it too seriously. Tbh, to say that a game shouldn't have a certain thing that fits within the world of the game for real world moral reasons is just silly. It's common sense that it's a vile thing to do IN REAL LIFE

Edited January 5, 2014 by DeejayPwny

[Azamagon]

Avoiding the morality questions, going into more about Toxic:

 

First, I think the addition of Toxic fits kinda neatly with the classical 4 elements (Fire, Water, Earth, Air).

* Fire = Heat

* Water = Cold (Frozen water)

* Air = Lightning (Storms and stuff, you know?)

* Earth = Poison (Poisonous plants etc)

 

About Toxic itself, I would consider it more a mix of many things. It's a poison, it's an acid AND it's a virus. Toxic could simply just be the undefined mix of all of them. Combine it with another element, and then one of its parts becomes more prelavent:

* Cold brings out the Virus better (explained better by others, common cold etc)

* Heat makes it, kinda literally, expand into (Poisonous) Gas

* Electricity brings out the acid (explained better by others, car battery etc)

 

Personally, the only one I'd change of those 3 would be Heat+Toxic maybe turning into Radiation or Napalm instead, while Heat+Electricity could turn into Plasma (Plasma is pretty much superheated matter, swarming with electrons around them...).

That in turn would make many Plasmaweapons able to turn into using, quite logically, the Plasma Element (Supra, Dera, Cestra, Plasma Sword, possibly also Seer and Lanka?), as I still can't see how Plasmatic weapons causes enemies to BLEED! (Same with Flux Rifle & Spectra, why aren't they Heat element? Lasers can't really make you bleed either, right?)

 

And your question about Radiation (the proc being a confusion-effect). Well, if the Radiation is supposed to be more laser/plasma-oriented, can't one assume that they are simply BLINDED, rather than receiving radiation poisoning?

Edited January 6, 2014 by Azamagon

[Cwierz]

I think this is amusing, and brings up some valid points. But I don't agree with it, this isn't chemistry, we can afford to have some sort of fiction here.

[ReiganCross]

The problem with that is that it's NOT a part of the (little) narrative (we have). We're ninjas, it's to be expected we use dirty, morally repugnant methods of assault. But, as I said in my last post; it is just a game. Don't take it too seriously. Tbh, to say that a game shouldn't have a certain thing that fits within the world of the game for real world moral reasons is just silly. It's common sense that it's a vile thing to do IN REAL LIFE

 

Well, i DID say that morally repugnant things in games are not exactly prohibited to be there. Just don't let it sit idly by while you do nothing with it, y'know? Address that thing, use it in some sort of gameplay driven narrative (Kind of like Missile Command). There is no topic Games should not be allowed to use to make content, i just think that just letting it sit there and pretending it's a non-issue is kind of sad...

 

Also, people didn't seem to understand... When i say that using Virus weapons makes me sick, i'm talking about literally sick, like when you imagine your own insides being eaten by flesh-eating virus. I'm not using parables to talk about the morality (Although it SHOULD be talked about), i'm talking about really getting me unsettled. It's kind of a powerful feeling of uncomfortable that could be very useful to make content as well (since the gore in this game is kind of silly.)

[Makya]

I have a question Cross, without poison, how would a Ninja be a Ninja? Ninja's used poisons/toxins coated weapons as well as drug over doses to kill their target/target groups. They did not set them on fire(fire kills because it literally cooks the target from the inside out), not any other combination really. The one of the only 'kind' way to kill someone would be would be electrical(electric chair) as it doesn't always need to torture to kill, though even that often does.