De Please Change Ogris Ammo Type Already. Srsly

[Wiegraf]

Well, given the recent discovery that the Drakgoon could use Shotgun mods while having the Rifle ammo pool, it's definitively possible to have a weapon retain a weapon 'type' (like the Ogris, Torid and Penta remaining a 'Rifle' type for the purpose of mods) while having a different ammo pool assigned.

 

So yeah, it's definitively possible that the Ogris, Torid and Penta could have their ammo types swapped to shotgun or sniper ammo while remaining 'rifle' type for mods.

 

Still, I personally believe that each weapon should have their ammo count individually set and associated with an ammo pickup type to restore stocks and that the amount of ammo recovered per pack is also set as a per weapon basis.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Wiegraf

[direcyphre]

How are you not seeing that this is because Rifle Ammo restores 20 Grenades/Rockets? Change it to Sniper Ammo (which restores less, and is far rarer) and you will see a difference.

How are you not seeing that it takes fewer sniper rounds than any sniper rifle or bow to clear an entire room? My reference to people looking at their ammo is that I've rarely been any lower than 20 rounds or so, and that's only in defense before heading outside the globe/bastille to grab ammo. Even if you changed the entire ammo dynamic (new types, smaller pickups, etc) you would only have ammo problems in T3 defense against enemies that take multiple hits... and only if you were running solo.

 

No, ultimately the downside to explosive weapons is self-damage/suicide. Kudos to those of us who have overcome that issue.

[SIDESTRE4M]

If it got nerfed, it will be like: "Oh I don't care." or "Oh, I will just take another weapon to T3 defense."

As if the ammo activates easy mode or something...

[Phoenix86]

Afaik Drakgoon got already fixed.

 

I agree with Direcyphre, changing it to Sniper Ammos wont matter (even if i agree to do it for the sake of consistency) because it is SO MUCH AMMO EFFICIENT that it doesnt care...

 

To feel some urge to conserve ammos on Ogris you would need ridicolously low such as... 20 max ammos, sniper pool and each pickup only restores 2-3 rockets... that's would make me think about taking aim before shooting...

 

Simply switching to Sniper Ammos would do nothing... never saw my Ogris dropping below 520 ammos

Edited January 13, 2014 by Phoenix86

[NikolaiLev]

 

 

To feel some urge to conserve ammos on Ogris you would need ridicolously low such as... 20 max ammos, sniper pool and each pickup only restores 2-3 rockets... that's would make me think about taking aim before shooting...

 

 

This is basically what I've been saying over and over again.

[direcyphre]

This is basically what I've been saying over and over again.

Except that suggestion is essentially forcing a nerf in such a way that would require a change to the overall ammo system (which uses the same ammo pool for each ammo type). And while that doesn't sound like a huge deal, you would then need to balance out the already negative feature of explosive weapons: self damage.

 

While in the end, it still wouldn't change the status quo. It would either be enough to stay topped off, or it wouldn't be enough and the majority of the populous would object. If you want to hamstring a weapon, do it yourself.

[Dalu__Ka]

Give all other weapons infinite ammo, easy fix.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Give all other weapons infinite ammo, easy fix.

 

Then give Penta/Ogris the same flexibility to make it even.

 

To make it clear: No selfhurt, faster fire rate.

 

I guess we need less populism in here...

[LazyKnight]

Except that suggestion is essentially forcing a nerf in such a way that would require a change to the overall ammo system (which uses the same ammo pool for each ammo type). And while that doesn't sound like a huge deal, you would then need to balance out the already negative feature of explosive weapons: self damage.

 

While in the end, it still wouldn't change the status quo. It would either be enough to stay topped off, or it wouldn't be enough and the majority of the populous would object. If you want to hamstring a weapon, do it yourself.

NPC have far more health than players, it wouldn't hurt to change the function of the player inflicted damage to self to be 10% of final mod damage(this would just make mistakes painful not fatal).

 

Ammo needs to be redone for many weapons, twin Wraiths vipers can burn up all their ammo in a matter of seconds, it would require giving them pick-ups of 60-100 ammo, per ammo pick-up to even remotely balance them. Most problems with ammo can be solved by setting both max ammo for weapons and ammo per pick-ups for weapons on an individual basis, instead of by genre

Edited January 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Dalu__Ka]

Then give Penta/Ogris the same flexibility to make it even.

 

To make it clear: No selfhurt, faster fire rate.

 

I guess we need less populism in here...

 

Ok, i dont care, give it all of that.

[SIDESTRE4M]

NPC have far more health than players, it wouldn't hurt to change the function of the player inflicted damage to self to be 10% of final mod damage(this would just make mistakes painful not fatal).

 

Ammo needs to be redone for many weapons, twin Wraiths vipers can burn up all their ammo in a matter of seconds, it would require giving them pick-ups of 60-100 ammo, per ammo pick-up to even remotely balance them. Most problems with ammo can be solved by setting both max ammo for weapons and ammo per pick-ups for weapons on an individual basis, instead of by genre

 

Didn't they do that with Grakata already? I'm sure they could raise the capacity for many other rifles too... including Ogris (haha, just kidding about that.^^)

 

Ok, i dont care, give it all of that.

 

:D

[Pure]

I don't think i've every used more than 100 ammo on it.  Why the ammo hate all the sudden?  We could just use ammo kits.  Is it because the inferior drakgoon weapon got its ammo switched to shotgun ammo even though its a shotgun.

[LazyKnight]

  Is it because the inferior drakgoon weapon got its ammo switched to shotgun ammo even though its a shotgun.

The changes to Drakgoon, does not bother me. Twin Wraiths type weapons are more likely my issue, and DE lack of consistence on whether or not players should even be concerned with ammo management and that has been bothering me since April.

Edited January 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[NikolaiLev]

Except that suggestion is essentially forcing a nerf in such a way that would require a change to the overall ammo system (which uses the same ammo pool for each ammo type). And while that doesn't sound like a huge deal, you would then need to balance out the already negative feature of explosive weapons: self damage.

 

While in the end, it still wouldn't change the status quo. It would either be enough to stay topped off, or it wouldn't be enough and the majority of the populous would object. If you want to hamstring a weapon, do it yourself.

 

No, it really wouldn't need a change to the ammo system.  Self-damage isn't a terribly big drawback either.

 

And it would change the status quo.  You'd actually run the risk of running out of ammo with careless shooting, just like most other weapons.  It's just a matter of doing it right.

Edited January 13, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[BlueIstari]

You have any argument, it will have an impact at all?

 

Truth to be told, it makes more "sense" for the nature of it having sniper ammo, but the people in this thread for the most part are hoping for another thing to happen and that won't just happen with switching the ammo pools.

 

You can switch the ammo pools, but people won't shoot less with Penta, they won't care more for ammo as before, the game experience won't be more "immersive", any right direction is just a paper tiger, so what is the goal of this change aside from wasting efforts until something on a broader scale will be done?

 

I would be pro sniper ammo, but at this rate I'm against it, because I don't agree with the reasoning most people have here not granting others something they don't have with their favorite weapon. It's just ridiculous to think that having 460 rockets less will change something if you never needed even as much as the sniper ammo pool would provide. Even if the ammo drops are less because you will need sniper ammo... it will still do quite as well as before.

 

It's just that people demand something with no real substance behind it, that I can't agree with it. That's all. I dislike aimless actionism.

 

I agree, many people aren't elaborating exactly what they expect from ammo changes, and there's a lot of speculation on the part of those for and against that can't be verified without testing. However, I also think I see why we're disagreeing on whether it will do anything or not. If I were to propose these results of changing the launchers to sniper ammo...

 

- Launchers now run the risk of running low on ammo when used haphazardly, like other sniper-class weapons.

- Players must spend a mod slot on Sniper Scavenger/Sniper Ammo Mutation to offset ammo concerns at the cost of other functionality.

 

... would you say that the change did nothing, because launchers still found a way to avoid ammo restrictions via mods? Because the way I see it, the change was effective, because it created a choice where there previously was none. No more free lunch, as far as ammo is concerned, as the launchers need to make the same mod choices that other sniper-type weapons do to achieve maximum ammo efficiency.

 

In other words, there seems to be a clear disconnect between what you and I expect of this sort of change. However, I'm also supporting the ammo swap proposal with Warframe's current faulty ammo and mod system in mind. Any changes of the scope you'd consider worthy would likely require an (long overdue) overhaul. At the very least we can hope that the fact that this discussion is even happening in the first place gets DE's attention, as unlikely as that may be.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Yeah, but people may forget an important part of this mindset. In order to run dry, you have to literally spam rockets...

 

well you see, we've got the charge mechanic and stuff... at least Ogris.

Penta needs to launch a grenade which is slow and has to be triggered (And it's not like you can shoot grenades spammy as well because of low fire rate...)

 

So the launchers actually already sacrifices a slot for fire rate to make it worthwile using them, (maybe Penta not), so we would have to sacrifice two mod slots (with mutation mods) instead to have the same effectivity as before and I don't think many people would have enough room in their somas for a lone fire rate mod to add... it would lead to more ammo waste anyways...

 

So is it really that unfair, that an Ogris user doesn't have to equip a mutation mod?

 

One rocket may kill 5 enemies at once, but in the same time I could have taken them out many other guns, so like one guy said: It is really a nonissue.

 

It won't just reach peoples heads. They are so focused on the lone thing labeled infinite ammo. There is always more to it than just one aspect, but this buzzword is cycling arround and hounts every thread.

 

If just looking at that, one would immediately agree... but taking some more points into account, it doesn't look so bad anymore.

 

Strangely though, these arguments always get burried as if they were a nonissue. Oh well...

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

#1 The damage per shot of Ogris and penta are only remotely matched by a sniper weapons.

#2 The fire rate of penta doesn't off-set the fact it can kill multiple NPC with each pull of the trigger.

#3 Reloads time for ogris/penta are no where near great enough to pose any hindrance.

#4 Infinite ammo, might as well be given to all weapons since it clearly is offset by base issues of the weapon.

#5 Your claim that you can kill a room quicker with a non aoe weapon quicker is dubious.

#6 Your last part would be a better argument to remove ammo from the game because its a meaningless thing.

[SIDESTRE4M]

1# Yeah, because Miter and Vulkar don't match up to a rank 6 (dojo-) weapon...

2# Oh come on, Nova triggers once for 20 enemies...

3# Hindrance? Yeah, it's not a hindrance... thanks god...

4# No, because it's not infinite ammo. Your efficiency for one rocket is just that great compared to a tiny bullet... surprise.

5# Depends on the room, but I can be quite quick with my Synapse... And I didn't exactly say quicker. I said at the same time. I might have added depeneding on situation, but this weapon is a trash clearer... so what else does it have to do?

6# didn't get it, sry.

 

Just what? If you guys want others to shoot less, you could also just decrease fire rate to oblivion... but then there would still be evil infinite ammo...

If I shoot only once during a mission with my Vipers I can have infinite ammo too. This term is just ridiculous. Sry.

Edited January 13, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[LazyKnight]

-snipe-

Try Vectis and lanka as the only competition with ogris/penta, other than weapons such as stug.

 

Evil infinite ammo can be inferred as: "inexhaustible ammo regardless of way in which it is used in".

 

You're being deliberately obtuse with your last paragraph. Even when ammo mutation mods are used twin vipers they will quickly outstrip the availability of ammo when used as a primary weapon.

Edited January 14, 2014 by LazyKnight

[NikolaiLev]

I agree, many people aren't elaborating exactly what they expect from ammo changes, and there's a lot of speculation on the part of those for and against that can't be verified without testing.

 

I don't know what "many" you're talking about, but I know I and a couple others have said precisely what we expect; users of these weapons being required to manage their ammo wisely much like they are with most weapons, to the point where their raw damage and AoE have sufficient drawbacks to them.

[Cwierz]

I just want it because of aesthetics. It is just dumb to have 540 rockets and looks pretty $&*&*#(%&. But I guess just ruling it out as a minor problem instead of sitting down and fixing it is just way to complicated for some people to comprehend.

[NikolaiLev]

I just want it because of aesthetics. It is just dumb to have 540 rockets and looks pretty $&*&*#(%&. But I guess just ruling it out as a minor problem instead of sitting down and fixing it is just way to complicated for some people to comprehend.

 

Wanting it for aesthetics is a silly reason.  There are actual, valid reasons to make this change.

[Brimir]

I just want it because of aesthetics. It is just dumb to have 540 rockets and looks pretty $&*&*#(%&. But I guess just ruling it out as a minor problem instead of sitting down and fixing it is just way to complicated for some people to comprehend.

 

There are no aesthetics to speak of. Regardless of weapon, the Tenno pull the ammo out of thin air, lol.

[BlueIstari]

I don't know what "many" you're talking about, but I know I and a couple others have said precisely what we expect; users of these weapons being required to manage their ammo wisely much like they are with most weapons, to the point where their raw damage and AoE have sufficient drawbacks to them.

 

"Many", not "most". These ammo change threads have been popping up every now and then for a while, and quite a few posts cite nitpicky reasons rather than ones actually concerned with gameplay and design. Apologies if my choice of words made it sound like I was just lumping everyone in; I assumed that anyone who made an actual arguement would know that I wasn't refering to them.

[Otaiken]

Try Vectis and lanka as the only competition with ogris/penta, other than weapons such as stug.

 

Evil infinite ammo can be inferred as: "inexhaustible ammo regardless of way in which it is used in".

 

You're being deliberately obtuse with your last paragraph. Even when ammo mutation mods are used twin vipers they will quickly outstrip the availability of ammo when used as a primary weapon.

 

The sniper rifles are inherently bad weapons in Warframe. There's a lot of enemies that you have to kill, since they still do pretty nasty damage, but you have slow weapon with high damage weapon that is meant to kill heavy units in a single shot. Snipers won't work in Warframe... ever.. the concept itself.. the thing that makes sniper rifle a sniper rifle simply doesn't fit into this game. You can't kill groups fast with sniper but you can kill heavies easily and from safe distance... with high firerate DPS weapon you can do both... well, maybe except for the distance.

 

So the only way you can make slow hard hitting weapon good in Warframe is to give it an AoE. Penta or Ogris are not OP compared to sniper rifles.. sniper rifles are UP compared to any other weapon type and that is by their very design.

 

You know how you can make sniper rifle viable in this game? Put Shred on it, learn to line up your enemies and give up on sniping spots. Funny thing is that once you learn how to do this snipers make for a pretty effective weapons.. though still not as effective as something DPS based like Soma or Synapse. But you can certainly rival Penta on Ogris this way. In a smaller hallway you can clear entire group of enemies with few shots and on huge distance... since on distance the travel time makes quite a difference and you retain your ability to quickly and safely kill heavies, something that is not so easy with Penta or Ogris.. believe me. So yes, in corrent situation you can outperform Penta or Ogris with a sniper rifle.. though you'll need semi-automatic one. Your ammo efficeincy also goes through the roof once you do this btw.

 

My point is that the ammo efficiency is born from the design of the weapon and lowering it makes no difference. Until you lower it so much that it's essentially a direct nerf. But those weapons are also situational.. hard hitting slow weapon are not very effective in this game. Penta and Ogris both have their niche and that's why I consider them balanced. There are great at what they do, but not very versatile... on short as well as long range there are better weapon and there are better weapons in general imho.

 

And I agree that you could give all weapons infinite ammo and the game wouldn't suffer much from it. Unfortunately you would buff fast high DPS weapons this way... which are incidentally already the best weapon in the game, since Warframe synergises so well with them. Penta having infinite ammo or not makes no difference, Wipers or Soma with infinite ammo on the other hand...

Edited January 14, 2014 by LocoWithGun