KvotheTheArcane1 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 What are you two even arguing about? Mak is trying to make the claim RNG/Grind is fine. Or that DE hasn't claimed they were gonna reduce the grind/RNG. He's trying to say My points are all invalid because I cannot pull up the livestream where they said so (mostly because it's been awhile, and because each are roughly an hour long without time stamps of when they talk about X or Y) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathstroke2000 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) The void is worse than it is, it's overstuffed with possible rewards. And before remember, all grineer could drop any mods assigned to the grineer faction. Do you even know how it worked? But I do know what it comes from, just not where considering how long ago it was (and the fact each LS is over an hour long, you're looking at 5 hours of watching and waiting for them to say it). And at this point, it's common knowledge, and it's been in the hot topics. Again, they want to reduce the RNG/Grind of the game, that's the point. Don't avoid it. Because the adjustments are so minor, or simply shift the RNG, they don't actually make it better (minus the boss drop change). So why won't you admit that they want to lower the grind/RNG? Because you're mak, and you never ever admit you could wrong, so I'm done again. You either thrive on defending DE, or arguing. Or both. Holy crap man. Are you still Arguing with Mak Gohae ? I dont think it's worth the headache arguing with someone like that. He could go on blabbering about this forever. No point in trying to get some common sense into his head. According tho him DE can never make mistakes. This game is perfect and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Edited January 12, 2014 by Deathstroke2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Redwire Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 And why havent you praised them yet? I find it interesting that for the stuff they adjusted you refuse to even mention it. That says a whole lot. Never have I seen such white-knighting as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mak_Gohae Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 What are you two even arguing about? Kov is trying to make the claim RNG/Grind is in the most horrible thing in the world. Or that DE claimed they are going to be less reliant on grind/RNG. He is trying to say that how he remembers events should be how everyone remembers events so there is no need of context when he randomly drops some words in and states that DE said them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) so there is no need of context when he randomly drops some words in and states that DE said them. Literally DE said: "We're gonna be less reliant on RNG, and we're gonna remove some of the grind." How does that need any context? But no, keep on whiteknighting away, you refuse to see basic reason, so whatever, live in your own little world where DE is perfect. Make stuff up, claim I'm saying things I am not, and ignore anything that contradicts your views. Edited January 12, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inberun Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Just ignore and pretend he doesn't exist. Its for your best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iBread Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I think the off-topic posts should be deleted, seriously...also, when is DE going to notice this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground.Zero Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) I think the off-topic posts should be deleted, seriously... also, when is DE going to notice this thread? They noticed it, it was mentioned on the dev livestream on the 10th. When are they going to do something about it? Soon™ Edited January 12, 2014 by Ground.Zero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 They noticed it, it was mentioned on the dev livestream on the 10th. When are they going to do something about it? Soon™ Offhand, do you have a timestamp (exact or near), otherwise I'll just start from the start and listen for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground.Zero Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Offhand, do you have a timestamp (exact or near), otherwise I'll just start from the start and listen for it. Sorry I don't, was watching it live on twitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iBread Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 They noticed it, it was mentioned on the dev livestream on the 10th. When are they going to do something about it? Soon™ Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Sorry I don't, was watching it live on twitch. Darn ok, I'll watch and see if they did, because if they did, I missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auramaru Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) I enjoyed the main point of this thread thoroughly and am glad that the Devs can look at discussions like this and take notes. It seems the discussion has lost it's strength and focus due to some actions from the moderators. Although, I am thankful they condensed multiple topics, I think people who wanted to type an angry post about DE decided to get all angry at the Moderators for no freaking reason. Also... people are complaining about anything and everything they can possibly complain about right now (specifically in this thread) Can we either get this back on track...? (Or let this thing die...?) As a sidenote: I find it annoying that everyone points out DE's mistakes, tells them to fix them... And when DE says they are going to fix them, everyone disrespects the devs and the company.... For @*#$'s sake people... The game is in development, give the Dev's some room to breathe. /shrugJust my thoughts. Edited January 12, 2014 by Auramau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganpot Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) While I don't disagree with everything in the OP, I feel compelled to offer up some counter-points. Mastery Rank Warframe is essentially an MMO. Content will be added continuously for as long as the game remains profitable. The dev team has been very open about this. The fact that they are planning for at least 3-4 years of content is a good thing: short-term thinking has killed a lot of MMOs. Additionally, the presence of such high mastery levels is an indicator that they are actively thinking about their most hard-core players. People would complain if they ran out of mastery ranks, because then they wouldn't feel like all of their accomplishments were accurately represented. To complain about mastery level grind and then suggest giving out stronger weapons for high mastery users is to completely miss the point. Mastery rank isn't supposed to be a grind, it's supposed to be a natural measure of the time and effort invested into the game. Mastery rank weapons also shouldn't be markedly more powerful than regular ones. It leads to a massive reduction in variety. There are a LOT of examples of this in Warframe's short history: the acrid, soma, galatine, gorgon, brakk, strun wraith, orthos. All of those weapons (and more) were once (or still are) top in their class, eliminating any practical reason to use competing weapons. Do you not remember how boring it was when seemingly everyone was running around with an acrid? End Game While I like the idea of a tough raid mode, Warframe just doesn't have the underlying mechanics to support a true end-game right now. That's harsh, but it's true. DE are currently working on making melee useful and crafting better AI (which will hopefully be a good start), but there's a lot of other stuff that needs to be fixed up as well. Armor is still not fixed (and quite frankly, it needs a complete overhaul). Ammo economies make some weapons impossible to use for sustained periods. Outside of class-specific abilities, there is no reliable way of avoiding damage (dodge is near-useless in this regard). Enemy damage scales with level (meaning everything will eventually 1-hit you). A lot of warframes feel sluggish and slow for being ninjas (the stamina system exacerbates this). The elemental resistance system is an over-complicated mess. Stealth is bare-bones. Health is near-impossible for most frames to recover. Most frames lack intricate team-play potential or a high skill-ceiling (auto-targeting, prevalence of pure damage abilities, etc.). If a raid mode was added right now, it still wouldn't be challenging. It would just be easy for end-game players, and impossible for everyone else. Lore I absolutely love well-done lore. I can spend hours talking about some of the obscure stuff within some of my favorite games. That being said, DE needs to be very careful with Warframe's story and lore. The problem with creating a traditional story for an MMO is that it can't ever end. In fact, most of the time there can't even be notable changes to the world at all. Another problem is that (at least in more traditional MMORPGs), players need to constantly be given bits of story (aka quests) as busy-work, inevitably spreading any potentially interesting story paper-thin and stuffing it with filler. What percentage of the player base actually enjoys reading all of the quest text in, say, WoW? Five percent? One percent? To me, there's a clear difference between lore and story. A story is basically told to the players outright, through anything from cut-scenes to text screens or gameplay itself. Lore is the bits of information given to the players, which they need to piece together for themselves. I find lore infinitely more satisfying than story, because it shows that the authors trust their audience to be smart enough to figure things out for themselves. To put it bluntly, a traditional story would not benefit Warframe. DE could hire the most talented writers in the world, and the story would still be a disappointment to a large percent of the community. Each player has their own idea of how their Tenno think and behave, and if the story contradicts that personal idea, players will naturally be upset. Personal player-driven choices seem like a great way to get around that at first, but the players expect choices to have consequences, and those become unsustainable quickly as the number of choices multiply. The actual story of Warframe should be told through public events, and nothing else. What we need is more lore, not more story. From what I've seen, the existing lore is already what fascinates players. What are the Sentients? What drove the Tenno to do certain things in the distant past? Who is the Lotus? What are the culture and inner workings of the Grineer and Corpus? How did these factions arise in the first place? These are all incredibly interesting questions, but half the reason they are interesting is because we haven't been given straightforward answers to them. They are perpetual mysteries to be slowly deciphered. Something More While there are a lot of fantastic ideas given by the community, there are also a lot of bad ideas (pessimists would say these make up the majority). No company can be expected to find every idea presented on their forums and be able to filter good ones from bad ones with 100% accuracy. Even if DE could do that, ideas take a lot of time to implement (some larger ideas can take months or even years to fully realize). Game developers have very limited resources, so they need to prioritize different things. You could argue that they've been prioritizing the wrong things, but one of the most consistent complaints about Warframe when it originally launched was that there weren't enough weapons, frames, enemies, or levels. It's true that the devs might be a bit hard-headed in some aspects (change the ****ing armor system already!), but at the end of the day they are clearly trying their best to make the game better. They've added a staggeringly massive amount of content in one year, and they've seemingly got a decent idea of where to take the game from here. They also care about their community (or at the absolute minimum, spend a lot of time and effort pretending to), which is more than can apparently be said about certain other teams http://www.gamefront.com/mechwarrior-online-forum-ragesplosion/ . Of course, none of this guarantees that Warframe will succeed, and I do sometimes worry that DE is too inexperienced to handle such a massive project. I suppose the community just has to keep making suggestions and hope for the best. Edited January 12, 2014 by Ganpot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blatantfool Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Well said Ganpot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodorick Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) Sorry to budge in but when you mentioned Payday2 to inquire. Especially the second sentence made me wonder. Overkill, Payday's developer, ruined their sequel completely. Now what could have been improved over the first game were technicalities. Things like Weapon handling, smoother and tighter controls. Maybe a bit more cleverer AI with more diversity. From then on they only would have to add annual new heists and maybe a new weapon/gadget. With Payday2, they did in fact improve on the former. The Perk Trees were also an interesting choice. But from then on they went completely downhill in a way i believe they are much worse than DE. Storywise a catastrophe. From amazing heisters robbing metropolis banks and even ripping out whole blastrooms out of buildings to steal the content, they fell down to robbing local jewelry stores and smashing windows in a mall. There's nothing big about the heists. And new content? Well, apart from skill trees that you level up, everything except weapons are RNG based drops after a mission. so you can easily become max rank and still not get that silencer or scope for the weapon you want. To convolute the drop table they added the Masks and even exp/money bonus to them. They added DLC weapons and addons, but those again are just added to the "payday droptable". Oh yeah, the only new heist that wasn't a blatant recycle of an already existing one was that Train DLC. which had unthrowable bags to transport half a mile... 40 of them. hope you like bags! When asked to import the old heists and maybe fix em up for the new stuff introduced in PD2, they said "technically not possible lol." even though it's the same engine, and they damn ported a counterstrike/left4dead map for christmas. Actually, now that i mention all these things... does sound something familiar? Reusing resources (various weapons), RNG based progress, convoluted drop tables, massive grind as content. The only thing that sets DE apart from Overkill is that they still deliver actual content, like new tilesets, and aren't disgustingly lazy farts who are just in it for the quick buck. But considering how much of all the actual good feedback that gets thrown at them they ignore, I'm not sure they will be better than them for much longer. TL;DR Overkill is almost worse than EA This is not true at all. Overkill made a profit from their pre-order alone. You should also listen to Jim Sterling's opinion on this if mine isn't enough. Overkill made a huge profit with a very small budget. They barely had any ressources compared to Dice and made the right choices and it resulted in a great game for its worth that sold very well and for good reasons. And this is why I still stand by my sentence and hope that DE will be more like Overkill than Dice. You may not have liked the game and wished they had taken a different approach, that is your prerogative. However, just because you didn't like a game doesn't mean you can start to invent lies to suits your argument about Warframe here. No wall of text will change that. Also Overkill software is a developper and EA is a publisher. Two very different things. Saying one is almost worse than the other is based on nothing at all, except maybe on your frustration the game didn't turned out how you wanted it to be. Edited January 12, 2014 by Theodorick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Pretty nice excuse, considering that the whole market system is fully functioning. I'm not trying to start a war here, but it is safe to say that the Open beta title is just that, a title. And a title doesn't warrant flaws. Honestly this is the last game using Open Beta as a title. The market is fully functioning an such because they do have to support themselves after all. They don't have a publisher behind. You're ignoring the fact of the unique situation they are in to have to sustain the development of the game with an active playerbase while it is indeed in beta. And as far as the place the game is in development it is most definitely in beta. You can see it with the vast iterations the game has gone through and the many more things on the menu. The lack of end-game, etc. is obviously on the pipeline and while we have a right to grill them about it and current problems, which is important, but we can't expect it all to just be there yet let we are with finished games that are just lacking. Welcome to a game in development, it's a wild ride. Granted we still need things to get better sooner since we are here and playing it since it's live all the time. Just know the different of asking for and suggesting some more challenging content for veterans, for example, and demanding the full suite of end-game pve (and possible pvp-pvevp content) due for later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolidSp33d Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 It seems that you guys, didn't watched last livestream... DE dont give a cr*p about everything that community asks... All they do, is creating goats =/ I was chuckling at the sarcasm until that last line. You seriously think that? It was a bloody Q&A. That was nothing but responding to what the community asks. They gave great responses we and address a lot if not everything OP mentioned. (which is why I was surprised to find this thread today) They listen like crazy aaaall the time. Seriously. u crazy if you are just really good at being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) They gave great responses No, they gave "Soon" and "Right around the corner" with next to no details. Edited January 12, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrium Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Open Beta is not a beta, especially one that's been in "Open Beta" for close to a year. They aren't in "release" because beta is a comfortable excuse for any shortcoming. However if you have a working cash shop you are not in beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudPies Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I don't understand why you think DE cares about the opinions of veterans. They've already got our money, they're after the new bloods that might consider buying shekels. How about: "An Open Letter to DE from your Potential Costumers"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venzire Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 (edited) What DE needs to do is read all of these open letters and all the tid bits of GOOD and VALUABLE feedback, list it all, yes every bit. Then have a Livestream and an AMA/Q&A in a forum environment where they can discuss and solute these problems bit by bit. I have a few ideas for how we can have this AMA/Q&A, but I'll refine them before I post, I'll PM any other Vet players if they would like to have a read over. I'm a Vet, started very early Closed Beta. I've seen the game grow immensely since the start to now, 2014. It's going through a rough patch, DE needs to listen to their community veterans and any other players with their head screwed on right... All in all, lets hope they read these open letters, all the good and valuable feedback and this thread especially. If DE listens to the Veterans, the ones with the most experience of Warframe then they'll most likely get the most open and valuabe feedback to improve and fix the current problems and the game as a whole. +1 for OP and all the Vets that helped with these informative letters. Keep it going till we're being admittedly and openly listened to. Edited January 12, 2014 by Venzire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrium Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 I don't understand why you think DE cares about the opinions of veterans. They've already got our money, they're after the new bloods that might consider buying shekels. How about: "An Open Letter to DE from your Potential Costumers"? You remember how unbearably boring and dull being new to the game is? They don't care about the new bloods either :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrium Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Anyone catch the FB page directing people to pencil in Warframe as 2013's GOTY? Does that seem odd to anyone else? Yea I saw it. As much as I *do* like Warframe even if I feel strongly against it's direction it's definitely nowhere near GOTY status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitaiikan Posted January 12, 2014 Share Posted January 12, 2014 Open Beta is not a beta, especially one that's been in "Open Beta" for close to a year. They aren't in "release" because beta is a comfortable excuse for any shortcoming. That could be still a Beta, if they get some project, and i'm afraid they don't Just look after more than 1 year, when you talk about end-game, DE seems to have never thought about it, Open Beta could be an excuse, any dev' think one day, some player will tuch the top of the game and they probably will need more to stay in. But yai... Cooming soon, like they saids since months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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