An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[matto]

If we let this thread die out, then all those pages and upvotes has been for nothing.

 

Isn't that already the case?

 

How many pages were kind of off-topic? How many pages for whining about things we're not talking about?

 

This thread became a mega complaining thread. It had such potential...

[helix.hex]

Isn't that already the case?

 

How many pages were kind of off-topic? How many pages for whining about things we're not talking about?

 

This thread became a mega complaining thread. It had such potential...

derailing happens all the time;  case-in-point this:

 

Now back on topic: this mini tread seems like just another bite they thrown out there for us to get off their back with a booster. seems they are listening to something.

[Althix]

Will this thread ever end?

it will.

but then again there will be another thread like this, just as those that were before this one.

 

as it now, waiting on:

Scott for new game mode

Sheldon and dev team to see what "end game" actually is by DE.

[matto]

The problem guys is always the same : we make big threads that are supposed to point Warframe's flaws out.

 

Thread becomes "Hot", popular.

 

We get an indirect answer from the devs in an Update, a Livestream, a Hot topic thread saying they are working on something, and next update is huge.

 

We decide to wait until next update.

 

What I am saying is that, we should, at some point, stop waiting. Even if indeed U12 is awesome, even if U12 brings us "endgame" etc., it is maybe time to make something. We need a few leaders, some guys that have influence on this forum (yes, you Ced23Ric, VegetableBasket, --collstro--, Nugget_, General_Krull, Althix, Sixty5 and many others in this thread or others), and launch something. A community inside the community, a thinktank as I said before, defending players' interests, bringing ideas, asking things to the community.

 

A group that could make some kind of pressure, a group talking to the devs, sending reports to Rebecca or any community manager or Warframe's developpers.

 

Maybe, with a good organization, we could find people acting like representatives in each specific language section. But it takes time, we don't all have time for this. However, with a good organization it could be easy to launch this kind of initiative. We just need the right guys, a good communication with this community and the devs.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

The problem guys is always the same : we make big threads that are supposed to point Warframe's flaws out.

 

Thread becomes "Hot", popular.

 

We get an indirect answer from the devs in an Update, a Livestream, a Hot topic thread saying they are working on something, and next update is huge.

 

We decide to wait until next update.

 

What I am saying is that, we should, at some point, stop waiting. Even if indeed U12 is awesome, even if U12 brings us "endgame" etc., it is maybe time to make something. We need a few leaders, some guys that have influence on this forum (yes, you Ced23Ric, VegetableBasket, --collstro--, Nugget_, General_Krull, Althix, Sixty5 and many others in this thread or others), and launch something. A community inside the community, a thinktank as I said before, defending players' interests, bringing ideas, asking things to the community.

 

A group that could make some kind of pressure, a group talking to the devs, sending reports to Rebecca or any community manager or Warframe's developpers.

 

Maybe, with a good organization, we could find people acting like representatives in each specific language section. But it takes time, we don't all have time for this. However, with a good organization it could be easy to launch this kind of initiative. We just need the right guys, a good communication with this community and the devs.

 

That was supossed to be the design council.

 

Look, as hard as it sounds, we can leave or stay, is DE game at the end (they make sure to make this point understandable for all of us).

 

At this point some choice DE takes cant be undone (infested in derelicts, to name one)

 

At least they are developing a new tenno lab to avoid some RGN, AT LEAST.

 

All we can do is make our voice be heard, and wait, there is not much left.

[matto]

Design council can't work that way.

 

Because the best group will be the one that decides by itself to work all together.

 

When I first wrote my previous post, I thought "that was DE's role, to organize this community as I said". Fact is, they're not really doing it.

 

Any choice they made can be undone (except for the core of the game). It just needs a good sense of logic, a right situation and time (and lore is the best way to do this).

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Design council can't work that way.

 

Because the best group will be the one that decides by itself to work all together.

 

When I first wrote my previous post, I thought "that was DE's role, to organize this community as I said". Fact is, they're not really doing it.

 

Any choice they made can be undone (except for the core of the game). It just needs a good sense of logic, a right situation and time (and lore is the best way to do this).

 

maybe i was not clear, let me start again.

 

the purpose for design council was to do what you claim these "leaders" has to do, the case is DE does not care.

 

of course anything can be undone, DE does not want to change some things, like the derelict / infested fiasco (they already stated this).

 

and your idea that we all together can be a force of change is delusional  naive, you could do something like that only if everyone who disagree with something left the game for at least 2 days, and came back, just to show his discontent.

 

actions like these will never happen.

 

so, the best we can do is talk, and hope that DE gives a crap about our opinion (sometimes they do), nothing else.

Edited February 2, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[AvinJingzu]

I just spent an hour in Derelict Survival farming for the Burston Prime stock... 1 hour. That's not multiple runs adding up to an hour that is a solid hour in 1 run... and not a single piece of the Burston dropped. What is with the drop tables... could we remove the tier one drops after a while please?

[sewens]

I'll be impressed if someone at DE reads this entire thread and replies.

[LukeAura]

maybe i was not clear, let me start again.

 

the purpose for design council was to do what you claim these "leaders" has to do, the case is DE does not care.

 

of course anything can be undone, DE does not want to change some things, like the derelict / infested fiasco (they already stated this).

 

and your idea that we all together can be a force of change is delusional  naive, you could do something like that only if everyone who disagree with something left the game for at least 2 days, and came back, just to show his discontent.

 

actions like these will never happen.

You were clear. 

You've misunderstood him I think though. 

Design Council is technically what he's talking about, a group of people passionate about the game that make feedback on it. But it's a poor implementation of a such a council, and isn't as cohesive or collaborative as a tight knit group of players who come together themselves to drive this change. Voices speak loudest not just as a mass, disorganized, group but in unison with each other. 

And attitudes like that are exactly those kinds of actions don't happen. You give up on the idea as impossible before even attempting to succeed at it. 

 

[FuryEnder]

All of my +1's to this thread, good sirs.

[Tesseract_The_Pariah]

1-Year-Veteran, co-founder of the Children of the Rising Moon shadow clan, agreeing with this.

 

Edited February 2, 2014 by Gaminus

[HeadQuarters]

I have been a part of this game since May of 2013. And though I know that is not terribly long, I have 345 hours of game play time (and growing), hold a Mastery Rank of 11 going on 12, and have collected all of the Warframes and maxed all of them forma'd several of them, and have collected a large number of weapons, maxed all of them and forma'd several of them. So I like to think of myself as a vet.

 

I am here to address an issue that is close to my heart. Bare with me I am not going to simply complain I will make an effort to give decent suggestions.

 

Lore:

 

When I started the game there were a great many mysteries that kept me interested.

 

Who is the Lotus?

What does she want?

Who are the Orokin?

When will I meet a Jackal in the field?

What did we steal from all those ships?

 

Leaving me much to discovered I invested time and effort into this game. I felt the game was worth my time and effort and I believed the project was worth paying for the Founder's status. 

 

Here I stand, three months short of a year latter and some of the things I still do not know bug me.

Who is the Lotus?

What does she want? 

Who are the Orokin? 

When will I run into the/a Jackal in the field?

What the hell did we steal from all those ships, and did we take enough to just stop caring about it?

 

After a great deal of time DE has given us 29835793 more questions and 0 answers, they provide us broken bits of lore that mean nothing and have no context. 

 

Why did I question when I will run into the Jackal in the field? Obviously he is a boss. Well the Lotus tells us that it is a problem for Tenno in the field. So . . . where is this field? Can I go to some battle where there are Jackals, Hyenas, and Raptors fighting us? If not then why even tell us it is in the field, just tell us to kill it.

 

That brings me to the Lotus. Only the smallest hints of fragments of ideas have been released about everyone's favorite eyeless scag. There is so much room for lore and improvements for her. But what have we gotten, we have gotten her to shut up more often, and some guy to made offhanded remarks about her. AWESOME! But really she feeds us our opinions, "You feel obligated to fight for the Corpus today" I do? Great thanks Lotus I was not sure. They have worked up an in game model for her. Awesome, when will you put her in? "Not any time soon." Uhhh ok you are working on concepts for stuff we may not see for another year rather than adding content to your game? Sure. 

 

Next up on the lore chopping block. Who is the Stalker? Yes yes yes, I know DE and all those inevitable "What Stalker?" posts, it is a concept for the game to spice things up. But let's be honest. As it stands the Stalker is just some enemy who is obviously crazy because he spouts a bunch of contextless nonsense that means nothing to players before showing up to get shot at like everything else. There is no weight in his appearance, just someone who doesn't like us here to try to kill us, just like everything else. 

 

Carrying on. Earth is completely overgrown with Orokin forests. Cool we went nearly a year without knowing anything about this at all, but I can dig it. But wait, we are defending the forests? Didn't we oppose the Orokin? Or did we work for them? If the Orokin were our enemies then why are we fighting to uphold their work? If they were our friends then why are we around and they are not? 

 

We are Tenno, we fight for Balance or something like that. Only one problem. We are rarely treated to any source of balance. DE you add mechanics that directly encourage us to violate this balance. While we are on that are you priming us to remove the Corpus? First you introduce Invasions, cool beans, it gives us a great opportunity to impress our individual tastes into the game by supporting whoever we like better. (assuming rewards are equal) Then you slap us in the face by almost forcing us to completely destroy the balance the invasions play with by reintroducing a weapon that may only be attained by getting the Harvester (who actually makes plenty of sense lore wise) to attack you, how do we do that? Support the Grineer exclusively! I have not forgotten being told that our status can be in deficit by supporting the Corpus.

 

Bosses spout a bunch of contextless nonsense just like the Stalker. Occasionally they mean something, but other times they reference things we can not understand because the material is either not there or too far dispersed to make any meaningful connections. 

 

Help Fix It:

 

DE, did you see what happened in the Gradivus Dilemma? Your fans picked sides. They snatched up every ounce of lore you shot out at them and the savored it. There were strong opinions on all sides. Take a look at the "Eris Has Fallen." Thread it is filled with people who feel strongly about both sides. People who have formed ideas of the Grineer as Liberators or Subjugators, or the Corpus as Greed Driven Monsters or The Everyman's Hero. 

 

You have a player base that has put more work into your lore than you have. There are writers (myself included) out there who would write beautiful lore for you with little to no charge. Your fans are hungry for lore and in this respect you are letting them starve. You are focusing so much on putting content out there, guns, frames, tilesets, that you are forgetting that when all the frames are collected, all the guns shot, and all the tilesets ran, there is nothing else for players to consume. I have forma'd guns I despise because there is nothing else to do. Logging on to this game is a ritual right now for two reasons; maybe I will get a decent login reward (unlikely) or I might see friends online. 

 

I really respect a lot of what DE does. I was irritated that I finished the Cicero Crisis within three hours then had to wait several days before I got a reward. In this Oxium Espionage you fixed that by awarding the prizes upon completion. All you need to do to band-aid this lore issue is to add some decent text, add a lore section in the codex and scatter things to scan across your tilesets. Then sit back and figure out a way to really add real lore to your game. 

 

There is so much potential that is going so sour here that it is depressing. Hire a decent writer, tell them exactly what you need, and then find a way to include it, please, for the love of Warframe!

 

 

Headquarters, The Warmaster of Krov.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Letter13
Please keep grievances with moderators to PMs, reports and/or support tickets. Thank you.

[nobucketrequired]

I'm a warlord of BARNYARD (the most prestigious and swaggy clan in existince) and my opinion matters more than some regular joe-schmo player. I demand recognition on top of the list and I strongly suggest that my name be put in bold print.

 

As per the OP, I did not read a single word of it as I'm too busy being important.

[KTribute]

50 Pages of mostly construct criticism.

 

If something important doesn't get addressed next livestream in a professional manner, then I'm done. The artwork is the only category I can give this game honest praise in anymore.

 

It's not worth the struggle to watch DE become the next Firefall Devs. I almost feel like just donating to Grinding Gear Games for their good work with their game.

[Kato-san]

Turn the game into a FPS competitive pvp DOTA game there yah go, theres your end game.

 

How do you make a end game any ways? Add more farming? PvP is the only end game in most games. Or can some one give me a game where end game has nothing to do with pvp competition? And explain why it works as a end game?

[Mak_Gohae]

Turn the game into a FPS competitive pvp DOTA game there yah go, theres your end game.

 

How do you make a end game any ways? Add more farming? PvP is the only end game in most games. Or can some one give me a game where end game has nothing to do with pvp competition? And explain why it works as a end game?

 

End game in a pve game is some dungeon that is super duper hard and has an extremely low drop rate for rare items.

With all the complaining now about low drop rates it means that probably the same people complaining about end game are asking for something they are not going to like.

[skynexus]

only time will tell........

[KvotheTheArcane1]

End game in a pve game is some dungeon that is super duper hard and has an extremely low drop rate for rare items.

With all the complaining now about low drop rates it means that probably the same people complaining about end game are asking for something they are not going to like.

Just because other games do end game in X way does not mean Warframe has to do it that way too.

 

Instead of low drop rates, they could actually make the game require skill, i.e. force players to use that parkour system that's not mandatory outside of what, a couple mastery tests? Or they could have moving weakpoints, blocking/parrying, etc required.

 

Point is, low drop rates don't have to be "end game".

[Mak_Gohae]

Just because other games do end game in X way does not mean Warframe has to do it that way too.

 

Instead of low drop rates, they could actually make the game require skill, i.e. force players to use that parkour system that's not mandatory outside of what, a couple mastery tests? Or they could have moving weakpoints, blocking/parrying, etc required.

 

Point is, low drop rates don't have to be "end game".

 

That would be cool but skill test cuts off the population that could access the content and DE has clearly shown that they are not going to reach a level of difficulty that only a certain group may enjoy.

[Kaian-a-coel]

That would be cool but skill test cuts off the population that could access the content and DE has clearly shown that they are not going to reach a level of difficulty that only a certain group may enjoy.

The very purpose of endgame is that it's hard to get to. It's elitist by nature. You need to acquire skill and gear in the previous areas before heading to it.

Endgame CANNOT rely on cheap pseudo-difficulty like bullet sponges, or on very low drop rates. Endgame is something for people to strive for when they have nothing else left.

It's a goal you can work for, because you can increase your own skill rather than farming with finger crossed like RNG makes you do.

[The_Dogg_73]

You got my thumbs up man, best thread I've seen so far on changes needed in the game. Spot on!

Edited February 3, 2014 by -Sick-

[Archwizard]

Generally I don't read these kinds of threads (they all tend to say the same thing, frankly), but in light of some recent announcements, I must say I agree with most of this letter.

 

Primarily in terms of communication.

 

They announced that a change would be coming to obtaining several Warframes, the addition of a Tenno Lab for dojos. Several players have voiced concerns about obtaining these seemingly lab-exclusive frames through clanless/solo play, but personally I'm more perturbed that they did so partway through an event that released a new resource type, while vaguely hinting that said resource would be used in the dojos- but saying nothing about its rarity once the event ends (which in essence could be a direct repeat of Mutagen Mass dilemma), in what quantities it would be required, or how long the Research system will delay obtainment of frames moved into its jurisdiction.

 

This isn't the first time I've felt their communication was incomplete or misleading. I'd run enough of Xini to not really be bothered by the removal of Mutagen Masses from the star chart, but even I was dismayed by the removal of Infested. As the OP stated, patch notes tend to be 75% accurate at best; "stealth nerfs" generally are euphemised (such as the case of Venom-stacking in 9.8) or go completely unrecorded (such as the more recent line-of-sight change to Pull, inability to cast abilities in the air or back to back, etc). Warframe and equipment feedback is frequently mentioned in the Community Hot Topics or asked about in Pre-stream Q&As, but the devs keep such plans very close to their chests and several Warframes go unchanged for months as a result.

Just as another example: before Nekros was released, a megathread was made announcing his abilities, and most of the feedback was negative towards "Search the Dead" (and positive towards its predecessor "Life Drain"). This was explictly noted by Megan in a following CHT with something along the lines of "It may not even make it to release"- only for players to be silently overruled by the devs and Desecrate to be released anyway completely unchanged, along with unannounced changes to two other abilities in the same arsenal that much of the playerbase didn't catch onto for weeks. I've actually talked to players who refused to slot several of these abilities as a silent protest to this violation of communicated feedback, and most of us Nekros supporters still await his review.

Similar examples can probably be found in each of the latest frames to go under the knife, most especially Valkyr- who actually received limited review very soon after her release, but it was unsatisfactory to her supporters due to complaints only being bandaged in the area of her survival, and not receiving any changes toward her damage, utility or general effectiveness in or outside of Hysteria. Communication has already failed with the recent statement that she would not be receiving any further changes upon Melee 2.0's release.

 

We understand wanting to avoid Molyneuxing the game by overhyping changes (barring the fact that they absolutely do- Armor 2.0, Damage 2.0, even Melee 2.0 and the HUD now), and wanting to actually surprise players with positive changes and lore updates (like the Harvester)- but in places where communication stagnates, either the playerbase falls to desperation, despondency, and grim acceptance that necessary change isn't coming, or we're simply shocked by how devastating and painful the unforeseen transition is (the stamina changes, for example).

 

Second thing I agree with in this letter: the stance against grinding.

 

My personal favorite event was the Survival Weekend. It was a bit short, but it did one thing that no other event thus far has done: Rewarded players for skill, not for staring at their computer screen for several hours and panicking that they won't get enough points before the event ends. It was able to be finished within one run, and players could repeatedly playtest it for as long as they wanted to after finishing. They didn't need a gimmick like scanning flowers (that often did not even show up) or competing to land the killing blow on a new enemy to keep them coming back- they just did because they found it legitimately interesting.

 

I was thinking about it the other night, and I was able to boil down all of Warframe into three categories: grinding, microtransactions, and mindless aversion of boredom. Before you get to "end game" territory, you're either grinding for XP for your current gear, grinding through missions to unlock the solar map, or grinding for parts of the next Frame to replace your current gear. End game itself is composed almost entirely of people running Defenses and Survivals. Why? Some want to get a load of resources or scans (grinding), some want to get a new record (grinding), some want keys to go to MORE defenses and survivals for gear they'll eventually keep for aesthetics and a small upgrade over the standard version (grinding)- but most just do it because they're bored. You're not motivated by a sense of adventure (partially because every mission is just a load of different-colored enemies constantly trying to kill you) or curiosity (due to the steep lack of lore, and most important figures either trying to kill you or already being dead) or exploration (primarily due to the very stringent lobby system and solar map discouraging travel, but also because every mission barring some Assassinations is composed of maps made via scrapbooking techniques which you'll see a dozen times per planet); you're generally motivated by your psychotic tendencies or your empty Foundry. 

 

Simply put, there needs to be a new motivator.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Archwizard

[NikolaiLev]

 The mistake you're making is in bold.

 

 You'd be right to say that most players wont be mad about a well deserved nerf. But there are a great many who would be upset if DE tries to solve every problem that comes up by doing that sort of thing. There are more options when dealing with game balance then just buffing or nerfing existing items.

 

 For instance, Nova would be a good bit less dangerous if an enemy type existed capable of buffing its allies and preventing status effects.

 

 It is possible and is valuable to create balance by adding to what is there. You are not always stuck trying to buff or nerf things.

 

The problem with that is the fact it affects other frames, not just Nova.  So no, that's not always the right answer.

 

There's nothing wrong with nerfs as long as they're deserved.  People who depend on overpowered weapons to succeed ought not to be listened to.  If the difficulty of the game is that much of a problem, then an easier game mode is an option, but the game is already extremely easy, especially after all the nerfs to enemies like the Toxic Ancient and Runners.

Edited February 3, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[matto]

With all the complaining now about low drop rates it means that probably the same people complaining about end game are asking for something they are not going to like.

I have to agree with this. Just look at what happened with Detron for example.

I know that most of you want everything in the game, but at some point, we will need content that is harder to get.

You can't do it with prime items as they are not that hard to get, and releasing a prime item with a low drop rate (ex. Ember Prime) will results in large and relevant complaints.

So we need some endgame weapons (fitting with the endgame content that we are waiting for), maybe even upgrades for frames, that are way harder to get. Low drop rates is the easy solution, quests are a better one. Problem is, DE has now history in messing the droptables up, and every attempt in releasing new content that way will end up in flame wars.

Quests, multiple events, new Orokin zone... so many possibilities.

Edited February 3, 2014 by matto