An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Mak_Gohae]

So what? If all other F2P games are P2W, should warframe become P2W? Just because some other game(s) do something doesn't mean WF needs to.

 

Not some ALL.

Its a standard like pressing W to move forward.

 

Conjecture/guesses maybe, but there is no solid info on drop rates (for example).

 

Knowing the percentage of a rare item isnt going to make it less or more rare.

[Beheader87]

You have earned this Mastery 8's +1. This post is very much of what I've been dealing with in this game lately

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Not some ALL.

Its a standard like pressing W to move forward.

Not all games do that, some games reveal the drop tables, some do not. I.E. WoW tells you exactly what has a chance to drop, and what loot you can get from an area.

 

And again, so what if other games do X or Y? Why should WF do that? Because other games do it?

 

Knowing the percentage of a rare item isnt going to make it less or more rare.

I'm sorry, are we talking about the same DE that #*($%%@ the drop tables up multiple times? It's not about making something less rare because you know the chance, it's about knowing the chance to give feedback on things are obviously unfair (i.e. 0.67% chance for Lprime receiver).

[Hades1977]

I agree with these topics,developers are working hard and it's not easy to achieve balance as they want.

just have to see and hear the comments of players who dedicate so much time to this game,do not have to do all that is asked,only things you really need a change.and there are many to change!!

Add a game mode for veteran players,because they want to balance the game the wrong way!!

is the same as being a rookie and a veteran,there is no difference in both the game and the weapons,only some weapons require some level.

Many novice players only playing with the latest weapons added,and only complain about this and that and blah blah blah.

the veterans  even not have characters and new weapons to increase our level,but we keep playing this game and give our support.

are many issues to improve,  just look more feedback from players and you will notice some important things to improve.

pardon my english.

thank you very much

[Mak_Gohae]

Not all games do that, some games reveal the drop tables, some do not. I.E. WoW tells you exactly what has a chance to drop, and what loot you can get from an area.

 

And again, so what if other games do X or Y? Why should WF do that? Because other games do it?

 

Huh?  I was taking about items that are rare.

Some one mention going the "Korean MMO" route.

 

 

I'm sorry, are we talking about the same DE that #*($%%@ the drop tables up multiple times? It's not about making something less rare because you know the chance, it's about knowing the chance to give feedback on things are obviously unfair (i.e. 0.67% chance for Lprime receiver).

 

And in every single occasion data mining came AFTER questions where brought up form playing.

It was NEVER the other way around.

Data mining came at the very end of the trip.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Huh?  I was taking about items that are rare.

Some one mention going the "Korean MMO" route.

It also had stuff about data mining, which I assumed you were talking about.

 

And in every single occasion data mining came AFTER questions where brought up form playing.

It was NEVER the other way around.

Data mining came at the very end of the trip.

And in every single case it was data mining that confirmed it beyond any doubt. You cannot argue that point, because solid data beats guessing if they have or have not messed up the drop table, and the numbers confirmed what players had been asking.

 

(And I never said data mining brought up the questons, although it did a few times, i.e. bronco prime barrel has been replaced with braton prime barrel, and I think it was the LP barrel that was not even in the tables for awhile).

Edited January 10, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Mak_Gohae]

 

 

And in every single case it was data mining that confirmed it beyond any doubt. You cannot argue that point, because solid data beats guessing if they have or have not messed up the drop table, and the numbers confirmed what players had been asking.

 

(And I never said data mining brought up the questons, although it did a few times, i.e. bronco prime barrel has been replaced with braton prime barrel, and I think it was the LP barrel that was not even in the tables for awhile).

 

 

Only thing data mining did was rile up people that didnt care to start.

Which shows how little people actually care about those numbers.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Only thing data mining did was rile up people that didnt care to start.

Which shows how little people actually care about those numbers.

HAHAHAHA, knew you'd say something like this.

 

No, data mining was the hard info straight from the game that people were able to use to show the devs when something was wrong with the drop tables. Did it make more people mad? Sure, rightfully so.

[--collstro--]

This thread was intended to be an open letter to DE addressing the broader concerns of the veteran players; not the finer points of data mining.

[luanle21]

+999999999999 by the Stalker (http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198045056304)

[Loveshack]

Some drop-table / RNG oversight would be good as DE seems to fuxx it up consistently - the justified lack of trust is causing much ill will.

[SpFinX]

Today's fix of Drakgoon just shown it one more time: DE don't even have ONE person that'll look at new content before release.

 

Oh come on! Just how could NOT A SINGLE PERSON notice a shotgun using rifle ammo?

[Althix]

+1 from me.

 

For a pve game, this product is actually lacking pve content to play.

 

This game is looking nice for first two weeks, and all latest changes are aimed to make it look even better. But this game is hollow, empty and repetitive. It's lacking challenge, goal and purpose to play it.

[Mak_Gohae]

HAHAHAHA, knew you'd say something like this.

 

 

You knew i was going to say something like this because that's what actually happened.

I was there in all occasions, a couple threads talking about the drop rate about X thing that the majority of people in this board didnt care about and it only became a thing when when the numbers came out.

 

 

 

No, data mining was the hard info straight from the game that people were able to use to show the devs when something was wrong with the drop tables. Did it make more people mad? Sure, rightfully so.

 

Not denying this, im denying that the number play any part in gameplay for the general population. 

The people that care that much about numbers are min/maxers that just do math and when they cant they become confused.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Mak_Gohae

[KvotheTheArcane1]

You knew i was going to say something like this because that's what actually happened.

No, because that's your classic line you always pull out.

 

I was there in all occasions, a couple threads talking about the drop rate about X thing that the majority of people in this board didnt care about and it only became a thing when when the numbers came out.

Because before it was attributed to "RNG is RNG", then the numbers came out so people had proof that something was wrong. Hell, you don't remember any of the posts saying "wait until the data miners get the evidence, then get mad."?

 

Not denying this, im denying that the number play any part in gameplay for the general population.

You're denying the very evidence that proved something was wrong, and it wasn't just RNG being RNG. Really?

 

The people that care that much about numbers are min/maxers that just do math and when they cant they become confused.

There is nothing wrong with min/maxing, it's a playstyle just like people who want to use heavy impact have a playstyle. And there was nothing to be confused about when Lprime receiver had a 0.67% drop rate.

 

You want to continue, PM me, or start a thread, but:

This thread was intended to be an open letter to DE addressing the broader concerns of the veteran players; not the finer points of data mining.

to keep the thread from going to far offtopic I'll stop replying to you (Gohae) then, you don't have anything to support your position anyways.

Edited January 10, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Mak_Gohae]

No, because that's your classic line you always pull out.

 

 

Yes FACTUAL EVENTS is what i always bring up.

Imagine that.... USING FACTS!

What a thought

 

Because before it was attributed to "RNG is RNG", then the numbers came out so people had proof that something was wrong. Hell, you don't remember any of the posts saying "wait until the data miners get the evidence, then get mad."?

 

Correct, most of the people on this board didnt care, most of the people on this board just kept playing. It wasnt until numbers came out that we got all this fake outrage.

 

You're denying the very evidence that proved something was wrong, and it wasn't just RNG being RNG. Really?

 

Im stating that only a few people on this board had this discussion before numbers were out.

People notice and people brought it up. Numbers were just icing on the cake, the problem was known.

The only thing the numbers did is provoke fake outrage.

 

There is nothing wrong with min/maxing, it's a playstyle just like people who want to use heavy impact have a playstyle. And there was nothing to be confused about when Lprime receiver had a 0.67% drop rate.

 

Yeah, there is nothing wrong with it but saying the game is doing something wrong because it doesnt cater to X playstyle is, in fact, what is wrong.

 

I dont play this game that much which means that i have less of a chance at getting the Dreton. This doesnt mean that i will complain that i am not getting a better chance, this means that this is the result of my playstyle and nothing more.

[--collstro--]

After watching the stream, I have to say I'm rather disappointed with the responses. Since it seems to be an issue that has as close to a consensus that any subject can have in a group as large and diverse as our player base, I'll just focus on what was said on the live stream about that for a moment.

 

 

Harvester

 

As Steve said, "I gotta be honest with that. We cluster F'd the Harvester so bad on the probabilities and the, like how it all works; that I don't know, I feel that we owe them an explanation on it. The problem is; the secrecy we think is interesting, but it has that same kinda; that double edged sword that Scott was talking about. Where people want that stuff as soon as they figure out there's something interesting there, and it's keyed off of a secret, then they get irate, and then we totally sucked a$$, and the probabilities were wrong, and it was like broken, then we fixed it and it still wasn't good enough....."

 

Followed by Scott later saying, " So the Harvester seeks you if you're pro Grineer and continue to be pro Grineer. That's the hint we'll give today."

 

 

If they acknowledge they 'F'd up' Harvester as Steve put it, and that the secrecy makes the player base 'irate,' then why continue with the secrecy? This gave them the perfect opportunity after they admitted to failing with the Harvester and it's drop rates to show their community that they listen, and give us some real information for a change. Like exactly what needs to be done to proc it, what exactly is the spawn rate after being proc'd, what exactly are the drop rates for the components after it spawns. They acknowledge that secrecy made and makes, the player base irate, so what to do they do? Follow up with more secrecy. This was a perfect opportunity to address one of the major concerns of the player base and give us real information in the patch notes since they acknowledge they completely 'F'd it up.'

 

Sadly they did not do so, they followed the acknowledgment (apology?) with a slightly less cryptic 'hint,' but absolutely no real information. This does not sit well with me, or cause me to be optimistic for the ways they intend to address our other concerns, if they choose to address them at all.

 

 

Thanks again for your time,

collstro

[lucio1019]

It takes gut for people to admit they made mistakes, they are wrong.

It seems clear to me: DE don't want to admit it.

 

If there are some secrets, give players tools to figure out the secret, hints in lores, in missions.

Not just state "there are secrets" and claim the job is done. It is purely unprofessional and irresponsible.

Edited January 10, 2014 by lucio1019

[Kinjeto]

This letter is in no means speaking on behalf of all veteran players and not even all the veterans who I have been actively discussing these issues with over the past weeks. In time more of them will post their own letters outlying their concerns, but I assure you that many of the concerns listed below are shared by all.

 

 

Grind and Drop Rates

 

Beginning with Update 8 and the dojo resources, through the grind associated with obtaining the Burston Prime, (10 hours 50 minutes in my case,) and the yet too be obtained Detron, the grind in this game has increased to the point where even people such as myself who aren't opposed to grinding have already; or are very close to throwing in the towel. Your justification for encrypting the drop tables was that the codex would provide, in game what the data mined drop tables provided to players through third party websites. Sadly this is not the case.

 

The codex does not tell us which mods drop from which survival or defense  mission or from which tier or faction. Data mined information did. The codex does not tell us which void mission type and tier requires to be played to get each Prime component. Data mined information did. The codex does not provide drop rates for anything. Data mined information did.

 

We require that you do as you said you would and have the codex provide us with the same information that was previously available to us. This way we can determine by the drop rates whether or not the item(s) we seek are worth the grind involved, and would permit the player base to give you feedback if it overwhelmingly believes the drop rates are too low. If you instist on maintaining that this game is still in Beta after you have over 4.5 million user accounts on PC alone, and have inked contracts with Sony, then treat us like Beta testers and give us enough information so we can give you informed feedback.

 

 

Systemic Changes

 

Systemic changes like those to the damage and stamina systems need to be announced in detail prior to them being put into the game. This would have saved you from having to scramble to undo most of the changes to the stamina system when it was changed in ways no one in the player base expected and virtually no one liked.

 

When introducing systemic changes like those to mods, damage, stamina, credits and the upcoming melee system, please do not release them too early. Please wait until Q&A has had adequate time to test them to be certain that they function better than the existing systems they are to replace. Continued tweaking of new systems is to be expected, but having the new system not functioning at least as well as the one it replaces does not benefit anyone.

 

 

 

Lore

 

You have been talking about adding lore into the game for nearly a year now. In the minds of most I've spoken to, "lore" does not consist of stringing together a number of event descriptions and a couple of codex entries. Lore consists of a detailed and compelling story, whether it be a written story or a story campain; of how the Tenno and their enemies (allies?) came to where we are now, and character development, so we are able to relate in some fashion the the characters we play as, and those who we fight against.

 

 

 

Communication

 

For a studio who claims to want listen and talk to their players, evidenced by 1 to 2 livestreams per week; we feel extremely underinformed when it comes to things like when the upcoming event will start and what the objectives of that event will be when it does. Cicero began at Midnight EST without any prior notice. For competitive players and clans this kind of lack of communication only fosters frustration and resentment towards DE when none need exist.

 

Before you make sweeping changes to the game like removing Infested from the Star Chart or putting Mutagen Samples only in the Derelict Void, you need to communicate your plans to the player base in some detail before doing so.

 

Patch notes need to be complete. At best they only contain 75% of the changes in each major patch.

 

When discussing or previewing new additions to the game on the forums or on a Live Stream, please only discuss things that are going to be added to the game in a timely manner, (e.g. within the next two updates,) otherwise don't discuss or preview them publicly until they are. It only fosters frustration and resentment by the player base when you preview something and 6, 8, 10 months later it has yet to be added to the game.

 

 

 

Events

 

Competitive events (i.e. those with leaderboards,) need to be announced and thoroughly described several days before they start, so competitive clans and players can be prepared.

 

Competitive events need to last no longer than 3-4 days so the players who are competing don't risk their health by grinding too long. Individual rewards should require no more than 3 hours of game play during the event to qualify for, so that non-competitive players have ample time over the course of the event to play enough to receive them.

 

 

 

End Game Content

 

At this time the only end game content that exists in the game are Survival and Defense endurance missions lasting multiple hours where lag and drop in frame rate renders the game nearly unplayable. We need more challenging end game content that doesn't require sitting around for hours until it becomes challenging. I will leave it to others to outline what it could be, because I've heard many good ideas. But whatever it ends up being, something is desperately needed.

 

Whatever that content may be, it must be rewarding, but not in a way that you have to complete it in order to obtain a reward that can only be obtained by completing it. (i.e. Don't make it yet another excruciating grind.)

 

 

 

 

I write this letter because, I and many other veterans; some of whom have direct and regular contact with DE developers have repeatedly voiced our concerns on these issues, yet nothing has ever come of it. In fact, things have gotten worse than they were before.

 

Many veteran players have already left, and many, many more are on the verge of leaving if these issues aren't finally addressed. And if you read this and are thinking 'good riddance, we don't need them anyway,' then you're sorely mistaken. It's the veterans who run prominent clans, and teach the newer players about game mechanics like mod fusion, (nothing in game does,) how to play and proper etiquette while playing, and a host of other things. And if you intend to keep this game alive you want to retain all the veterans you can, and have as many new players in this game play long enough that they too become veterans, since the longer someone plays, the more chances you have to get them to spend money.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration,

collstro

Carrying the torch of liberty all the same way :D

Edited January 10, 2014 by Kinjeto

[Kinjeto]

After watching the stream, I have to say I'm rather disappointed with the responses. Since it seems to be an issue that has as close to a consensus that any subject can have in a group as large and diverse as our player base, I'll just focus on what was said on the live stream about that for a moment.

 

 

Harvester

 

As Steve said, "I gotta be honest with that. We cluster F'd the Harvester so bad on the probabilities and the, like how it all works; that I don't know, I feel that we owe them an explanation on it. The problem is; the secrecy we think is interesting, but it has that same kinda; that double edged sword that Scott was talking about. Where people want that stuff as soon as they figure out there's something interesting there, and it's keyed off of a secret, then they get irate, and then we totally sucked a$$, and the probabilities were wrong, and it was like broken, then we fixed it and it still wasn't good enough....."

 

Followed by Scott later saying, " So the Harvester seeks you if you're pro Grineer and continue to be pro Grineer. That's the hint we'll give today."

 

 

If they acknowledge they 'F'd up' Harvester as Steve put it, and that the secrecy makes the player base 'irate,' then why continue with the secrecy? This gave them the perfect opportunity after they admitted to failing with the Harvester and it's drop rates to show their community that they listen, and give us some real information for a change. Like exactly what needs to be done to proc it, what exactly is the spawn rate after being proc'd, what exactly are the drop rates for the components after it spawns. They acknowledge that secrecy made and makes, the player base irate, so what to do they do? Follow up with more secrecy. This was a perfect opportunity to address one of the major concerns of the player base and give us real information in the patch notes since they acknowledge they completely 'F'd it up.'

 

Sadly they did not do so, they followed the acknowledgment (apology?) with a slightly less cryptic 'hint,' but absolutely no real information. This does not sit well with me, or cause me to be optimistic for the ways they intend to address our other concerns, if they choose to address them at all.

 

 

Thanks again for your time,

collstro

It's the same old thing Steve did with the Codex. Where he said "Oh well there is a problem there. But once again, he hid the statistics." When people go and bet on horses, they have some idea of the stats on the horse from past races, if, the horse has been in that race.

So they can make an educated guess as to whether the horse is probably going to be second or third. Just like how the UI used to be when we had three stats and then the UI changed and we had BETTER status with the critical chance, damage and everything.

Therefore with the new Arsenal system we could make better judgements about what we were actually seeing and how much damage we were doing. Which is very in gaming. If you aren't communicating with your players in your user interface and the systems in-game then how do you logically and rationally expect you're players to:

1. Enjoy their gameplay experience

2. Operate as a consumer of your product.

3. Enjoy their time with the systems and the tools you've provided.

Digital Extremes has a VERY NASTY HABIT (until we picked them up about it -- and they still do it) of hiding statistics in the systems.

It is one thing. To hide information and make it fun for the player to find. It is another thing to go all cryptic and deny access to the player for that information. Because players also fall into 4 different categories. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test)

Systems could additionally be expanded to include scanning Grineer, Infested and Corpus (et all) in different planets. This could also expand the existing system.

Additionally I'd like to (sorry about bold and caps in advance but I am trying to make a very DAMN good point.)

OPEN LETTER ABOUT THE CONCLAVE SYSTEM, IF IT WERE USEABLE

Also known as: How I'd like to be able to use the conclave system, but it doesn't work cause you need multiple copies of mods for the warframe and weapons

If you're going to do a game that has %'s and the like. Be up front with your players. This brings me to another point with the conclave index and I discussed this on Steam with Collstro that if you want to make the conclave index effective. Once players already have the mods then they've got that content and the Codex encourages players to max out their mods which is awesome. But the $#*(@ of the thing is the conclave rating system (Yes, Ok we aren't a PvP dueling game but it's all good anyway) relies on the players having multiple copies of mods with all these different CXX values.

There MUST be a way to delevel/depower mods in the conclave system to match the conclave rating instead of having multiple mods for doing just that just makes the whole mod system kind Arsenal system kind of sloppy have lots and lots of different mods. Which means you have to build in an equip section to your conclave system not just a number check.

- - - -

Finally the other reasonable stupid problem I see and observe is the player stats screen is a giant cluster F*** of data. Why doesn't Steve / Scott move the player stats into the Codex as well.

At the moment. Sure it is nice to click on the Warframe and see the panorama of powers and fight stances, the descriptions. But What about including how much experience you've earnt, Warframe level and the like they have in the Codex status screen as well. NOW THAT is a GOOD DAMN USE OF INGAME ASSETS TO IMPROVE THE USER EXPERIENCE!

So the user has more incentive to go back to the Codex and utilize it and not try to scroll down the list of stats that are kind of raw but don't have any context towards what they are linked to.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Kinjeto

[TunaMayo]

Only thing data mining did was rile up people that didnt care to start.

Which shows how little people actually care about those numbers.

 

[Brontolith]

Hes less of a white knight and more just a contrarian. He just like to argue.

[Mak_Gohae]

After watching the stream, I have to say I'm rather disappointed with the responses. Since it seems to be an issue that has as close to a consensus that any subject can have in a group as large and diverse as our player base, I'll just focus on what was said on the live stream about that for a moment.

 

 

Harvester

 

As Steve said, "I gotta be honest with that. We cluster F'd the Harvester so bad on the probabilities and the, like how it all works; that I don't know, I feel that we owe them an explanation on it. The problem is; the secrecy we think is interesting, but it has that same kinda; that double edged sword that Scott was talking about. Where people want that stuff as soon as they figure out there's something interesting there, and it's keyed off of a secret, then they get irate, and then we totally sucked a$$, and the probabilities were wrong, and it was like broken, then we fixed it and it still wasn't good enough....."

 

Followed by Scott later saying, " So the Harvester seeks you if you're pro Grineer and continue to be pro Grineer. That's the hint we'll give today."

 

 

If they acknowledge they 'F'd up' Harvester as Steve put it, and that the secrecy makes the player base 'irate,' then why continue with the secrecy? This gave them the perfect opportunity after they admitted to failing with the Harvester and it's drop rates to show their community that they listen, and give us some real information for a change. Like exactly what needs to be done to proc it, what exactly is the spawn rate after being proc'd, what exactly are the drop rates for the components after it spawns. They acknowledge that secrecy made and makes, the player base irate, so what to do they do? Follow up with more secrecy. This was a perfect opportunity to address one of the major concerns of the player base and give us real information in the patch notes since they acknowledge they completely 'F'd it up.'

 

Sadly they did not do so, they followed the acknowledgment (apology?) with a slightly less cryptic 'hint,' but absolutely no real information. This does not sit well with me, or cause me to be optimistic for the ways they intend to address our other concerns, if they choose to address them at all.

 

 

Thanks again for your time,

collstro

 

Because of the other edge of the sword.

Some folks find it fun figuring it out, some folks like grouping together and sharing ideas.

The next time i guess they will balance it a bit better and just give a bit more info.

[Althix]

you do undestand that "next time" will be the same right?

 

because in case of DE you can see the very same pattern of behavior over and over again.
-Oh shhh, we did that. sorry won't happen again.

month later.

- daaaaamn boys. we did it again, sorry for that.

another month later.

- oh... well... we did it. again. sorry folks.

 

Folks: right DE, we don't need your sorry. We need you to stop doing same crap over and over again. In that case there is no need to apologize for you.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Althix

[Kartumterek]

instead of getting irate at stuff not working "correctly" in a game still in beta, mayhaps just calmly make a post in bugs asking about drop rates etc?

 

we ARE supposed to help DE by providing feedback in a constructive manner not excessively laying all of the blame on RNG.