Why The Penta/ogris Does Not Need An Ammo Nerf...

[Ratiasu]

Real life is a bad argument. So yeah, you work more, so you get more money than people who don't. Win some, lose some. I'm not complaining I'm not getting the pay of a full-time employee either.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Ratiasu

[Nox-Lamina]

Have any of you guys even used a bow/special weapon? It takes heavy sustained fire in order for me to run out of arrows. And as pointed out, people will just switch to an ammo mutation mod if the ammo type is changed(if that affects it at all). Changing the ammo type is moot.

[CrazyaZy]

Talking to a buddy who have played Halo series and Battlefield series:

 

me: Dude stop using that rifle, spam that Rocket launcher

friend: Nah man, I got like 6 shots with it, gotta use it sparingly

me: the f, that's bs, the game that I played, all the rocket and grenade launchers got 550 ammo size

friend: ..... What's the point of playing that game then? It's like playing Halo with infinite rocket launcher hack

me: yea, people talked about it, but some noobs  still think it's the right amount of ammo for a rocket launcher to have.

friend: LOL what a noob

 

TLDR: Learn to play, you got 2 weapons, not one.

[BlueIstari]

And as pointed out, people will just switch to an ammo mutation mod if the ammo type is changed(if that affects it at all). Changing the ammo type is moot.

 

But something DID just change in your example. An ammo mutation mod was swapped in. You pretty much nullified your own point.

Edited January 12, 2014 by BlueIstari

[CeePee]

OP is clearly a Penta/Ogris user with multiple formas.

 

The weapons wouldn't get nerfed at all even if the ammo type got changed to sniper ammo. Tell me, what's the lowest ammo count you've really gone with these weapons?

 

I don't think it's more than 100 ammo from max, which leads to nothing bad happening if the ammo type got changed. And if you're running out of ammo, add an ammo mutator and you never run out of ammo, it's not like the weapons didn't have enough damage.

[Nox-Lamina]

But something DID just change in your example. An ammo mutation mod was swapped in. You pretty much nullified your own point.

 

The point is to make it so that people have a less easy time with penta/ogris. My first point was that when using something that draws from the sniper pool it is still not that easy to run out.

 

Next and separate point is that assuming switching to the sniper pool does affect maintaining ammo people will simply add on a mutation mod, so they will still be better able to deal with ammo scarcity. My point is that there are ways around limited ammo so changing it will not suddenly stop people from modding them to do massive damage

[BlueIstari]

The point is to make it so that people have a less easy time with penta/ogris. My first point was that when using something that draws from the sniper pool it is still not that easy to run out.

 

Granted, but that's a flaw of Warframe's ammo system. Given that DE doesn't show any signs of improving it, switching the launchers to sniper ammo would be the only other possible step as far as design consistency is concerned. As well, the fact that the possibility of running out would even just begin to exist would be a plus, as those who habitually fire rockets at single targets will find themselves at risk of running dry. Even if it's not a perfect solution, it's at least good as a first step until DE decides to fix the ammo system.

 

Next and separate point is that assuming switching to the sniper pool does affect maintaining ammo people will simply add on a mutation mod, so they will still be better able to deal with ammo scarcity. My point is that there are ways around limited ammo so changing it will not suddenly stop people from modding them to do massive damage

 

Your point is actually more effective at demonstrating how big a mistake ammo mutation mods were, but I digress. Damage doesn't really concern me, and I'd wager damage isn't a concern for anyone else either, as I've not seen any requests for damage nerfs, just changes to the ammo pool, which for some reason has a few up in arms over a change that they allege will do absolutely nothing. But the fact is, if you're equipping a mutation mod to get around a limited ammo pool, then the ammo switch has done its job because you're making a decision to fix a weapon's inadequacy rather than building on its strengths.

 

As I mentioned previously, ideally weapons like the Ogris, Penta, and Torid (and any future explosive, or otherwise highly effective AoE weapon) would have their own specialist ammo pool to draw from, but lacking any developments with the ammo system, giving them sniper ammo is the best that can and should be done, even if the effects are less than desired.

[Davoodoo]

I love OP logic, if something is high ranked it must be best. So everyone bow before me cause im mr14 and i can stomp you all like a bugs cause you wont be able to use such powerful weapons as i do...Have i mentioned that none of my favorite weapons require any mastery ranks.

Another thing. 540 ammo capacity is just ridiculous. Even shotgun ammo capacity would mean that it can never run out. With sniper ammo reserves it probably could run out, but even then its highly improbable. 

Its isnt asking for nerf cause it wouldnt be a nerf at all. More like giving it a reason to stop spamming this for whole day without even going to pick up ammo,

Rarity also doesnt seem affected by lvl of enemies(which is a shame i know). And theres really no reason to fight anything over 80lvl unless you do it just for the sake of fighting such enemies.

 

So lets sum it up:

1. I dont even know how have you thought of that, i cant imagine that someone who plays 2 hour a day would ever want to be on top and idk either how could unreasonably high ammo pool help him with this.

2. Even if drop rates are affected by lvl of enemies then still even 500lvl enemies doesnt have it high enough to justify fighting them.

3. Thats what consensus is about. We argue till we get answer which satisfies everyone. Go at it and give us your arguments but we will also give ours.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Davoodoo

[bobafetthotmail]

OP never used Ogris/Penta. You won't need ammo mutation mods.

 

Oh get the f**k out with realism. There's a fine line between sticking to the gun archetype and hiding behind a sh*tty argument to keep your crutch. 

If you want a realistic game play Arma or something, DO NOT come to A GAME WITH SPACE NINJAS FIGHTING MEGA CORPORATIONS AND ALIEN ZOMBIES and cry about breaking the "realism" of a gun.

The entire point of having an ammo pool is for the challenge. This limit should be adjusted with the in-game weapon characteristics, so that it's still a challenge or removed alltogether.

 

Also, Team fortress 2 is not known for its realism, but lo and behold, its rocket launchers and bazookas don't have more than 40 ammo total. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Rocket_Launcher

Where is your argument about realism and logic not applying to Warframe now?

[DHKany]

OP never used Ogris/Penta. You won't need ammo mutation mods.

 

The entire point of having an ammo pool is for the challenge. This limit should be adjusted with the in-game weapon characteristics, so that it's still a challenge or removed alltogether.

 

Also, Team fortress 2 is not known for its realism, but lo and behold, its rocket launchers and bazookas don't have more than 40 ammo total. http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Rocket_Launcher

Where is your argument about realism and logic not applying to Warframe now?

I don't even know what to make of this post. 

I am for nerfing the penta and ogris, and I was saying that realism is a S#&$ty argument to hide behind to keep them at their current loliwin status. 

 

Also, TF2 rocket launchers don't deal 16k damage in an 8 meter radius killing every enemy up to around level 100 in 1 rocket. 

It's a PvP game so it has to be balanced differently. 

 

Realism should NOT be a factor for determining any gun stat tweaks EVER. 

THAT DOES NOT MEAN IM SAYING TO KEEP THE PENTA AND OGRIS AT THEIR CURRENT 540 AMMO POOL. 

I'm saying that one should apply logic and in game context to BALANCE GUNS. 

 

Also, we're still playing a space ninja game, where a fat guy stomps his foot and stops time. Do you seriously want to argue with realism applying to warframe any further? 

[Killerdude8]

Useful=/=16k damage per shot in a relatively gigantic AOE 

No, that is just stupidly overpowered. 

 

Oh get the f**k out with realism. There's a fine line between sticking to the gun archetype and hiding behind a sh*tty argument to keep your crutch. 

If you want a realistic game play Arma or something, DO NOT come to A GAME WITH SPACE NINJAS FIGHTING MEGA CORPORATIONS AND ALIEN ZOMBIES and cry about breaking the "realism" of a gun. 

 

If you want to take the realism argument even further, realistically speaking you shouldn't be able to slug around 540 rockets. 

realistically speaking you wouldn't be able to fire a rocket launcher while diving to side from a 30 foot fall. 

realistically speaking you wouldn't use rocket launchers unless against something that really needs blasting (i.e A tank, fortified settlements, etc.) 

etc. etc. etc.

 

Think before slapping on "hurr durr realism" to ANY argument in a VIDEO GAME. 

Y'know, Your Anti-realism helps our side more than yours, It's not realistic, Know what else isn't either?

A super Rocket launch with 540 rockets, 16k damage and a large AoE.

 

It's an Endgame gun that requires a lot to get, Nerf it? Nobody will use it, You literally remove the Reward from Ranking up to these ranks.

 

"You hit rank 6? Congratulations, Here's a bunch of new weapons, but they all SUCK! Have fun!"

[YBD215]

Honestly, Rockets and Grenade launchers need to have their own ammo type. 500+ rockets/grenades is just stupid... And yes the Penta is one of my favorite weapons

[Ourobor]

My personal objection to having overpowered weapons like that is that it actually detracts from my experience just by existing. I love that in warframe you have the flexibility to pick whatever weapon suits you the best and learn to use it effectively.  I use my weapons and have a good time, but because of things like the soma and ogris it feels like my accomplishments of skill and such are useless. Every time I use my weapons and feel a little good, I have a feeling that I will never be as effective unless I build one and I HATE that. I want to be allowed to use whatever I want and not feel like I'll never be good because I didn't make the op rocket launcher. From my point of view, the amount of damage is fine, but if you want to bring a giant rocket launcher to cause indiscriminate murder, you should have to sacrifice for it. This game is all about tradeoff. Limiting the ammo supply is a great way to do this. You can still use it and feel like a total badass when you kill a giant group of people, but you don't get to do it all the time. A rocket launcher is supposed to be a special weapon to be used tactically, not something you can just pewpew around the map with. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just the way I feel. To be clear, I do not want the ogris and such to be garbage or changed so they do less damage or whatever. I want it so you actually have to think before you use it. You should feel awesome when you use it. It's a freaking rocket launcher. Anything it hits should die. The reason they're behind mastery walls is because you're expected to be competent and intelligent enough to use it effectively.

[DHKany]

Y'know, Your Anti-realism helps our side more than yours, It's not realistic, Know what else isn't either?

A super Rocket launch with 540 rockets, 16k damage and a large AoE.

 

It's an Endgame gun that requires a lot to get, Nerf it? Nobody will use it, You literally remove the Reward from Ranking up to these ranks.

 

"You hit rank 6? Congratulations, Here's a bunch of new weapons, but they all SUCK! Have fun!"

I'm saying realism shouldn't be a balancing factor

not that the Ogris shouldn't be untouched. 

 

It should be nerfed because it is brain dead end game win sauce, not because "IRL rocket launchers are gud." etc. etc.

 

Nerf it? How will you know nobody will use it? Hmm? How do you know how they'll nerf it? 

Lowering base damage by 50 and reducing the blast radius while lowering ammo count would be more than a justifiable nerf, making the Ogris just an incy wincy less powerful, while still retaining its huge upfront AOE damage. 

Will it be useless then too? Or are you just gonna jump the "ermagerd, some stats got changed, nerf babies"  etc. etc. bandwagon like when the Soma's Crit Chance got nerfed? 

[Justin_Case001]

...When it gets changed, use an Ammo Mutation, there, infinite ammo again.

Because I don't want to have to give up an important damage mod.

[Makya]

Because I don't want to have to give up an important damage mod.

Then use it with actual aim and not blind fire? Even using Sniper Ammunition you will bank and should never drop below 40 unless you are reckless and wasteful. If you wish to be wasteful ammo mutation. Not all Sniper builds use sniper mutation either.

[Brimir]

Because I don't want to have to give up an important damage mod.

 

Yeah well though buttons, mate. That is how it works for all other weapons.

[Cwierz]

Here's the thing about that...you say "balance" but what that means is making weapons all too equal and making no real distinction between weaps, Definitely not that great for a F2p game, Some people want to have an awesome weapon and the Penta is one of them as well as the Ogris. 

That isn't what balance is at all. Balance has way more depth than just what you said, and it is utterly stupid to generalize and dumb it down like that.

 

People have, and still do. The point is, those who cling to their "I win" weapons and frames are the very ones that make it difficult for balance to play out and end game to ACTUALLY be end game.

I <3 You.

On the subject of endgame in this thread.

 

We have no endgame, high levels are dumb. 

 

If we want an endgame we should create a level cap in the way that we can actually fine tune some of the smaller details, and make AI scaling exist. I like endless defense and survival, but I personally think going past 30 minutes is a waste of time. I will get ground out of the game, and typically go play some pvp to recuperate.

[nekrojiji]

I'm correcting you because you're wrong!

 

The people that want different ammo for this weapon are right because of the potential damage storred in that ammo.

 

I understand that you use a Penta, but that is not a reason for it to be better than other types of weapons. 

 

If you are a veteran player and need lots of ammo to stay in defenses and survivals use ammo rechargers.

 

So yes!... you are wrong when you say that launchers NEED their large stock of ammo.

 

I coudn't care less of launchers, I don't use them, I like tactical shots not AoE madness.

 

I'm sure you would be irritated if snipers would have a 540 ammo stock.

[birdei]

I'm correcting you because you're wrong!

The people that want different ammo for this weapon are right because of the potential damage storred in that ammo.

I understand that you use a Penta, but that is not a reason for it to be better than other types of weapons.

If you are a veteran player and need lots of ammo to stay in defenses and survivals use ammo rechargers.

So yes!... you are wrong when you say that launchers NEED their large stock of ammo.

I coudn't care less of launchers, I don't use them, I like tactical shots not AoE madness.

I'm sure you would be irritated if snipers would have a 540 ammo stock.

I could careless how much ammo snipers have. I am not one of them passive aggressive people that like to bog down everything cause they want to enforce something. If you couldn't careless for launchers then what the hell you want it change for?

Edited January 15, 2014 by birdei

[bobafetthotmail]

DHKany, on 14 Jan 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

I don't even know what to make of this post.

I am for nerfing the penta and ogris, and I was saying that realism is a S#&$ty argument to hide behind to keep them at their current loliwin status.

Also, TF2 rocket launchers don't deal 16k damage in an 8 meter radius killing every enemy up to around level 100 in 1 rocket.

It's a PvP game so it has to be balanced differently.

Realism should NOT be a factor for determining any gun stat tweaks EVER.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN IM SAYING TO KEEP THE PENTA AND OGRIS AT THEIR CURRENT 540 AMMO POOL.

I'm saying that one should apply logic and in game context to BALANCE GUNS.

Also, we're still playing a space ninja game, where a fat guy stomps his foot and stops time. Do you seriously want to argue with realism applying to warframe any further?

It's generally better to turn the argument against the poster. In the case of the guy you were responding to, you should have just said that applying realism the ammo pool should be reduced because rocket launchers don't usually carry 500+ rockets in dimensional pockets, so using realism as a nerf shield is not gonna work, and applying double standards makes you look desperate.

In any case, the game has some elements that are indeed (relatively) realistic, like guns or the acrobatics (mainly for inertia issues like zorencoptering or similar bs when wallrunning). You can't say that because there is space magic then everything is bunk.

The weapons we use in-game have a name based on a relatively realistic transposition of what a weapon of the same kind is in real life. If we were using Wizard Sticks and throwing spells then it's ok to not apply realism, but when you ahve a weapon that tries to depict what a rocket launcher is in real life (within game limitations and still trying to be fun), then the more realism you can apply to it without making it less fun, the better.

Edited January 15, 2014 by bobafetthotmail

[Pro3Display]

well, guys.

the point of this ammo type changing wars is missed in action

regardless of ammo type launchers wont run out of ammo - almost everyone in this thread agreed with that

yes they could use sniper ammo and we could change it to be so, BUT

every touch to the code have a probability to cause tons of bugs 

so lets leave it like that and wont do stuff that wont change anything but may cause tons of problems?

[TwoCrabs]

people complain about the ammocapasity of penta and ogris, so what does DE do? nerf the ammocapasity....of the drakgoon....wat

-Maine

[bobafetthotmail]

well, guys.

the point of this ammo type changing wars is missed in action

regardless of ammo type launchers wont run out of ammo - almost everyone in this thread agreed with that

yes they could use sniper ammo and we could change it to be so, BUT

every touch to the code have a probability to cause tons of bugs 

so lets leave it like that and wont do stuff that wont change anything but may cause tons of problems?

Nonsense. Weapon stats are in a table, what kind of ammo a weapon uses is controlled by a ID number. If they don't know how to write numbers in a table without causing bugs they have bigger issues.

 

 

people complain about the ammocapasity of penta and ogris, so what does DE do? nerf the ammocapasity....of the drakgoon....wat

-Maine

Drakgoon is a shotgun, using shotgun mods. It was supposed to use shotgun ammo and ammo capacity too.

[Replacement]

OP is ridiculous and makes a series of nonsequitor points.  

 

Lack of balance results in lack of choice.  There's no rule that says "only casual players can use this gun."  So people will use what's best and the divide between casual and hardcore will be shunted off to some other aspect of the game.  Net loss: everyone is using the same gun, but the situation for casuals hasn't changed.  Rifle ammo for Ogris is a dumb choice. 

 

As for actual issues stated for why to leave their ammo type as it is: These are game problems, not Ogris/Penta problems.  Don't band-aid them by allowing explosives to make no sense in comparison to other weapons in class.  This ruins game health, ensures it will drive itself into the ground within a year or 3.

 

Also, it's insulting to ramble on making not-actual-points all the while bashing the opposition as "whiny players".  I don't want to use a rocket/grenade launcher.  Don't force me to through numeric superiority.

 

Good day.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Replacement