Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[Edgedemon]

useless?

 

man this list really makes me sad, i have 15 frames as of now (+3 primes that replaced their originals) and have yet to find a frame that well modded and used can't do the job.

 

they have to be played different, true, some have heavy situation reliant skills, true (i'm looking at you nekros), but useless? no.

 

and these results, low survival chance? 

 

Excalibur, the one that can deny all attacks in a wide area for 15 secs while gaining increased damage without adding any mods? 

 

Ember, with one of the few ultimate attacks that follows you and makes damage and status wherever you go even behind walls, doors and cover?

 

Oberon, the one with high health, self healing, and a knock em all skill that has C.C and damage?

 

seems I've been playing  with different frames from the rest of you.

[Incarmine]

I would never ever sell my Ember Prime, but ember is lacking in higher missions for two reasons:

 

 

1. She is a pure offense frame and combined with accelerant, her ult puts out tremendously more damage by itself than any other ultimate ability. But at harder missions, you'll be at wanting for more utility-based powers or abilities that aren't locked to static damage numbers. They really toned down the bullet sponge nature of harder enemies, but it'll get to the point where world on fire takes three or more seconds to take down one enemy. Accelerant mitigates that, but you'll be spamming this frequently regardless because Ember is quite squishy. She has average health and shield, caster-level armor, and only 1.0 movement speed. Therefore she has to rely almost solely on accelerant to stun-lock crowds of enemies in order to survive but this is pretty problematic because of the second reason:

 

2. With Ember, power strength, power efficiency, AND power duration (plus a little bit of range) are all critical. Many frames can do with just two of the four power areas (efficiency, strength, duration, and range), but because Ember is a damage frame, she needs power strength. She also really needs power duration because her best ability, world on fire, is a damage over time skill. Ember has no utility or defensive skill that can last a significantly long time like iron skin, turbulence, chaos, invisibility, or blessing, so like I mentioned earlier she has to spam accelerant to survive. That takes energy so she needs power efficiency. Range is optional, but if it's too small then she has to run to practically touching range to catch an enemy with world on fire.

 

All this means that she has to go to farther lengths, and require much more creative planning and formas in order to mod her well. Some frames like Mag can totally ignore power duration and just focus on strength+efficiency. Same with Nova, whom for higher levels all you need are efficiency and range. Nyx's abilities have no need for power strength at all, so efficiency and range are the only things required. Zephyr's tornado is primarily great for that CC, so power strength is optional, and the only things you need are efficiency and duration to power her tailwind and turbulence. With Trinity, only things she needs for perma-blessing is duration and some level of efficiency (which you may or may not opt out of fleeting because of its duration negative).

 

The general trend here is that many frames only need to focus on two, or even one area of power modding. Ember has to contend with three.

[Lyxolf]

All I notice about this tier business is that Warframe with offensive abilities that aren't Nova are trash, because due to scaling, all offense becomes useless at higher levels.

If DE would be smart and make warframe abilities offense wise mean something at a higher level this dispute wouldn't take place.

Sure I can solo Ember up to wave 25 thanks to accelerant stopping the field, then spamming WoF (efficiency build, have to spam) and fireball.

But she's really only good at that. If I take her outside higher tier stuff, she stops being effective. And with 15 armour. Her lackluster performance becomes ever apparent. When she can't clear a field instantly, she dies. And because of scaling, she can't clear.

 

Nova can clear well enough, even at a higher level, and because she has the ability to wipe out the field she is less squishy.

(Also she has average armour, why is Ember shoved into the weakling area when... I mean look at Ember, she's a sexy dyke lady while Nova is a chibi atom bomb.)

 

These are your two highest damage output frames, and why one is BETTER THAN THE OTHER.

 

Trinity has very little offense, unless she's being an emo chick and trying to kill her invincible self.

But the utility she has is appreciated even with scaling.

Vauban has utility above defense, and he's loved.

Loki is pure defense which is output as offense (He's a runaway frame.)

Dat cloak is op. Make it like TF2's spy cloak, when he does something he's momentarily visible, or something.

 

Personally I loathe Loki, he has no real value in a team, I don't care about your guaranteed revive, or high damage due to cloak, he's useless, others can deal damage better, and others can revive too.

[Hyunsai]

Personally I loathe Loki, he has no real value in a team, I don't care about your guaranteed revive, or high damage due to cloak, he's useless, others can deal damage better, and others can revive too.

 

Please.

 

Radial Disarm Loki is one of the best group defense frame of the game. Don't judge a frame useless to the group if you obviously never used it or played with a good one.

[Nkomo-Sama]

As we all remember as old user, we had a tier system that ranked all frames from god to useless/trash.

Vauban being the top of his class while mag being the useless one. But since we went through quite a update since then.

Who the top now? Am not suggesting these are the must have, anyone has the right to play what ever frame they want, I am merely asking who need's the most reworked Cough*Ember,Valkyr *Cough.

Updated tier system, based on the community opinion *new version thanks to SquirmyBurrito

*The new ranking system should be based on how useful each ability is, and the frame survivability, no mods, just their abilities.

As of right now the poll from our "Who Useless" show:

Ash 67 vote

Banshee 19 vote

Ember 11 votes

Excalibur 6 vote

Frost 40 vote

Loki 17 vote

Mag 1 vote

Nekros 19 vote

Nova 2 vote

Nyx 2 vote

Oberon 18 vote

Rhino 2 vote

Saryn 19 vote

Trinity 24 vote

Valkyr 89 vote

Vauban 1 vote

Volt 8 vote

Poll is closed now, since we got a general idea

 

New Tier system *Thanks goes to MushrooMars

Low survivability:

Excalibro

Ember

Volt

Oberon

Mid-range survivability:

Booben

Ash

Nova

Banshee

Saryn

Nekros

Mag

High survivability:

Nyx

Rhino

Frost

Loki

God-tier survivability:

Trinity lulz

Valkyr I guess

Now skill ceilings

High skill ceiling:

Loki

Booben

Mid-range skill ceiling:

Nova

Ash

Excalibro

Valkyr

Mag

Ember

Oberon

Volt

Banshee

Saryn

Low skill ceiling:

Nekros

Rhino

Trinity

Frost

Nyx

And finally power ceilings:

God tier:

Nova

Nyx

High tier:

Rhino

Trinity

Ember

Mid tier:

Excalibro

Loki

Booben

Saryn

Mag

Oberon

Volt

Valkyr

Low tier:

Banshee

Ash

Frost

Nekros

 

Survivability defines how resistant a frame is to being incapped, and how independent it is.

Skill Ceiling defines how much a frame benefits from its user's ability to intelligently cast abilities and avoid unfavorable situations.

Power Ceiling defines how much a frame is capable of doing with its powers alone, and how much it benefits from good modding. Also how dominant it is in the early game and how well it scales into the lategame.

Old tier system

Man I couldn't disagree more with this list....

[kietvan]

The new useless frame?

 

My personal idea is Frost. This is reason:

 

1 He is the most slowest frame. Movement speed is 0,9. And please dont tell me rhino have the same speed, he have the helmet to increase he speed.

 

2 Snow Globe. Frost can play as the warrior with high armor, health and shield, as mage with Avalanche or guadian with Snow Globe. But Snow Globe is the only skill make him different and special with other frame. He can take up melee and kill all enemy in his place, Snow Global. After Snow Globe fix, can taking damage. Frost are be kill after that. Really! Im no kidding. Except newbie, who dont know that fix, i have not seen any old player use Frost now.

 

3 Avalanche animation. Mag is the fist frame i pick when i start play game, but the warframe make me impression is Frost. And i buy him Bp just in the second day i play game even i dont know must find the part and build him. He have the cool armor and the most beautiful animation of all warframe in last skill, slowly call up the ice then frezee all target around, very powerful and very cool. The new animation, my idea, so ugly and more, most ugly animation in all warframe last skill now.

 

Finally, Frost have slow movement speed, Snow Global can be break (I spam 2 Snow Globe at T3 defend, at 20 wave, they are break down just after i build them 2 second). And Avalanche, arrr so... I have no word to say. Frost is the most useless War... No! Useless not true. He is no use now.

 

Finish.

[Edgedemon]

Snow Global can be break 

 

Snow Globe gets:

4sec inmunity (so if you spammed 2 globes a) it lasted at least over 4 secs cuz is not instacast b) you wasted the second globe inmunity inside the first or c) youre talking BS) , 3500+ hp  ( changes with power strength), 5x your armour as hp  (with steel fiber you get almost 2000 hp and your frame will get 60% less damage) which  makes it a decent skill. (is not valkyr cheap inmortality but spammable over 5k extra health is something)

Edited April 1, 2014 by Edgedemon

[Old-Blue]

Yeah, its almost sad that Ash is utterly useless in the late game :( He's my personal favorite frame when it comes to astectics to say the least.

[Lyxolf]

Please.

 

Radial Disarm Loki is one of the best group defense frame of the game. Don't judge a frame useless to the group if you obviously never used it or played with a good one.

 

He was my first frame, and I used him extensively, radial sucks.

[SquirmyBurrito]

He was my first frame, and I used him extensively, radial sucks.

 

Radial Disarm doesn't suck. It permanently removes an enemy's ranged capabilities, and synergizes well with Decoy (and Vortex).

 

My credentials:

Loki was my first frame.

Loki is my Main frame.

I have two Lokis.

I have leveled Loki from zero four times (not counting forma).

I have used him extensively.

Edited April 1, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Edgedemon]

I have two Lokis.

I have leveled Loki from zero four times (not counting forma).

 

wait why 2 loki?

[SquirmyBurrito]

wait why 2 loki?

 

Because I wanted to forma them in completely different directions.

[LukeAura]

"Useless" Very specifically is an interesting way of judging frames more than simply underpowered, balanced, overpowered.

It's more to say what frames don't have a Niche or aren't even competitive in their Niche.

Frost may be underpowered right now, but Snowglobe is still a very competitive defensive tool.

The Same with Excalibur and Radial Blind.

Both are rather lacking currently, but at least have a defining skill that keeps them competing in their niches.

Initial Suspects I would put in the Useless category are

Ash - Loki is a better invis frame, and Rush frame, is outdone in terms of damage/dps/AoE strength by other damage dealers who can maintain similar and respectable defenses and mobility.

Banshee - High damage buff looks like a Niche, but generally it's overkill and requires more time spent aiming and luck of the weak point being somewhere large, thus losing out to simple buffs like M prime. CC is very standard on frames, and even then hers is fairly weak, although spammable. Not really enough to call competitive compared to CC giants.

Oberon - Low CC, Low damage output, low procc/utility chances, is out performed by trinity in terms of healing and tanking.

Edited April 1, 2014 by LukeAura

[kietvan]

Snow Globe gets:

4sec inmunity (so if you spammed 2 globes a) it lasted at least over 4 secs cuz is not instacast b) you wasted the second globe inmunity inside the first or c) youre talking BS) , 3500+ hp  ( changes with power strength), 5x your armour as hp  (with steel fiber you get almost 2000 hp and your frame will get 60% less damage) which  makes it a decent skill. (is not valkyr cheap inmortality but spammable over 5k extra health is something)

Ah, i dont know about that chance. I have gone to wiki and check, so may be frost not so useless now.

 

But i still hate last skill animation. So Urly.

[kietvan]

Now about Ash. May be mess some person but i still say this. Ash have nice animation at his skill but it no use at hight level.

 

1 Shuriken. Realy! 500 damage at max when i just can shot 1 target only. I never use to this skill, so weak and so waste mana. Kunai with max mod built even stronger than this skill.

 

2 Smoke Screen. If finding a steel assasin. Loki still better, he have 12 second invisible when Ash have 8 second only.

 

3 Teleport. I have no idie with this skill, i just use it to move quickly to my teammate in front of me.

 

4 Blade storm. Good animation, good damage, good show, bla bla bla...If anyone think about that skill so good, so they wrong. This skill take long time to finish enemy. At hight level, you cant kill them right the way because limit damage. Even that, when use this skill, Ash will become invunerable. Yaaa, so good. No, if Ash become invulnerable, enemy will turn their target to Ash Sentinel. My sentinel have been destroy a lot of time when i use this skill.

 

So if you want to show up your skill, Ash is the good choise. But if you want to survival, Ash is the bad choise.

[Kashiki]

Valkyr? Useless? Yeah, I'm going to keep making face cake out of the enemies with my kitty claws.

[RealPandemonium]

wtf did I read here

Snow globe still works fine; it's no longer exploitable.  Avalanche is 3rd best aoe spam skill atm.  1 and 2 still suck but 3 and 4 are good skills.

 

Yeah, its almost sad that Ash is utterly useless in the late game :( He's my personal favorite frame when it comes to astectics to say the least.

Yeah, being able to one-shot kill heavy Grineer through their armor is useless. 

 

He was my first frame, and I used him extensively, radial sucks.

What's with all the trolls?

 

 

"Useless" Very specifically is an interesting way of judging frames more than simply underpowered, balanced, overpowered.

It's more to say what frames don't have a Niche or aren't even competitive in their Niche.

Frost may be underpowered right now, but Snowglobe is still a very competitive defensive tool.

The Same with Excalibur and Radial Blind.

Both are rather lacking currently, but at least have a defining skill that keeps them competing in their niches.

Initial Suspects I would put in the Useless category are

Ash - Loki is a better invis frame, and Rush frame, is outdone in terms of damage/dps/AoE strength by other damage dealers who can maintain similar and respectable defenses and mobility.

Banshee - High damage buff looks like a Niche, but generally it's overkill and requires more time spent aiming and luck of the weak point being somewhere large, thus losing out to simple buffs like M prime. CC is very standard on frames, and even then hers is fairly weak, although spammable. Not really enough to call competitive compared to CC giants.

Oberon - Low CC, Low damage output, low procc/utility chances, is out performed by trinity in terms of healing and tanking.

Frost - Not underpowered.  Just needs 1 and 2 skills to work.

 

Ash - Ash's 4 is one of the best skills in the game and his invis is serviceable.  He needs changes to 1 (useless) and 3 (difficut to aim) but is a fine frame nonetheless.

 

Banshee - The damage buff is good, jesus christ do we not even want to aim our guns anymore?  Nova is cancer, we shouldn't compare frames to Nova and Rhino. Silence needs to have an additional effect to make it fun and attractive to players.

 

Oberon - Needs impact damage to be removed from his skills, needs a slow or other effect on Hallowed Ground, needs Renewal to apply to sentinels and keep healing even after max health is reached.  Some additional armor wouldn't hurt (100 vs 65.)

Edited April 2, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[kietvan]

Valkyr? Useless? Yeah, I'm going to keep making face cake out of the enemies with my kitty claws.

I agree with you. I dont understand why people think Valkyr is useless. If any one want to see her power, use her and Loki. You guy will see the borning of 2 destroyer god in the battle war.

[ExplodingStars]

Someone counted the "No frame is useless" statements yet?

[Darkjackal_2031]

I personally think that there are few frames that are entirely useless. Some may have an irritatingly useless power or two, but all have at least one thing decent about them.

[Archont2014]

Rhino is low tier? What dimension do you live in?

I'm questioning if you have developed any capabilities of reading. He has low skill ceiling which means you can pretty much just faceroll the keyboard/rush right into the enemy legions and be fine. This is true. He is one of the easiest frames to play and master.

[LukeAura]

Frost - Not underpowered.  Just needs 1 and 2 skills to work.

Half a balanced kit, half that doesn't work, that's underpowered.

 

 

Ash - Ash's 4 is one of the best skills in the game and his invis is serviceable.  He needs changes to 1 (useless) and 3 (difficut to aim) but is a fine frame nonetheless.

 

Banshee - The damage buff is good, jesus christ do we not even want to aim our guns anymore?  Nova is cancer, we shouldn't compare frames to Nova and Rhino. Silence needs to have an additional effect to make it fun and attractive to players.

 

Oberon - Needs impact damage to be removed from his skills, needs a slow or other effect on Hallowed Ground, needs Renewal to apply to sentinels and keep healing even after max health is reached.  Some additional armor wouldn't hurt (100 vs 65.)

 

I'm defining 'useless' as 'nicheless' or uncompetitive in that niche. Simply because it works, doesn't mean it isn't useless by this definition.

 

Loki's Invisibility is more flexible, you can use it during anything, and it keeps momentum, It also lasts longer. His 4 might be strong for an ult but at its speed I can hit a similar performance with a gun, it has a limited target count, wonky targetting, and tends to be wasted more often than not in a squad.

Banshee's damage buff is more than good, It's overkill. It faces diminishing returns of value in terms of time saved dealing damage, but a linear exchange in skill, with an increase in time spent aiming for weak points. And just because we all know Silence needs fixed, doesn't mean it isn't useless right now.

You say nothing that is an argument for Oberon being not useless, but what he needs to be not useless.

[RealPandemonium]

Half a balanced kit, half that doesn't work, that's underpowered.

 

 

 

I'm defining 'useless' as 'nicheless' or uncompetitive in that niche. Simply because it works, doesn't mean it isn't useless by this definition.

 

Loki's Invisibility is more flexible, you can use it during anything, and it keeps momentum, It also lasts longer. His 4 might be strong for an ult but at its speed I can hit a similar performance with a gun, it has a limited target count, wonky targetting, and tends to be wasted more often than not in a squad.

Banshee's damage buff is more than good, It's overkill. It faces diminishing returns of value in terms of time saved dealing damage, but a linear exchange in skill, with an increase in time spent aiming for weak points. And just because we all know Silence needs fixed, doesn't mean it isn't useless right now.

You say nothing that is an argument for Oberon being not useless, but what he needs to be not useless.

Frost is a good frame because of his 3 and 4 skills currently.  He is not underpowered.  Underpowered means he is not a good frame to use, which is not the case. 

 

Ash is useful, period.  He can do something that no other frame can do, and it works.  The fact that you personally don't appreciate its utilty doesn't mean it's a bad skill.  Warframe is not a race for kills, and shouldn't be most game modes (worth noting that I can rush ahead of most teams and grab 90% of the kills from most teams using Blade Storm alone, so it's not like you can't do that with Ash.)  Loki's invis also has a casting animation and does not keep momentum.  The added duration is a boon but it costs more energy and does not have a stun.  Loki is also fragile while Ash is relatively healthy among warframes.  This is an apples to oranges comparison and the fact that people continue to make it shows that they do not appreciate the intricacies of the two frames. 

 

Banshee's damage buff is a great way to level up new weapons and helps the whole team kill heavy units.  Are you suggesting we replace it with a room-killing 4? (Banshee already has one of those but she has to make a sacrifice to use it.)  Silence is also hardly worth equipping unless you do stealth runs.  Giving it some other effect could make it a fun and rewarding ability for all team members and perhaps help compensate for Banshee's fragility in some way. 

 

Oberon needs work; no one denies that.  He does not need to be gutted and remade, as most people suggest, to be a good frame.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Ash is useful, period.  He can do something that no other frame can do, and it works.  The fact that you personally don't appreciate its utilty doesn't mean it's a bad skill.  Warframe is not a race for kills, and shouldn't be most game modes (worth noting that I can rush ahead of most teams and grab 90% of the kills from most teams using Blade Storm alone, so it's not like you can't do that with Ash.)  Loki's invis also has a casting animation and does not keep momentum.  The added duration is a boon but it costs more energy and does not have a stun.  Loki is also fragile while Ash is relatively healthy among warframes.  This is an apples to oranges comparison and the fact that people continue to make it shows that they do not appreciate the intricacies of the two frames. 

 

TL;DR- Wrong.

 

What is it exactly that only Ash can do?

 

Blade Storm is inefficient as far as the time-kills ratio goes. Sure, if those enemies aren't really higher leveled, that team doesn't include some of the most common damage frames, and those players aren't playing a Loki with a good weapon.

 

I went and double checked before replying to this bit. Here are my findings:

 

Invisibility:

Can be cast while in the air. You maintain some/all of your forward momentum.

Casting while sliding maintains some/all of your forward momentum.

Casting while sprinting stops you.

Casting while wallrunning also stops you.

 

Smoke Screen:

Cannot be cast while in the air.

Casting while sliding stops you.

Same goes for casting while sprinting.

Same goes for casting while wallrunning.

 

Invisibility is far more flexible and does not hinder a player who is on the move.

 

I'm not going to go into which frame I think is better because I don't like it when people compare Loki and Ash.

[RealPandemonium]

TL;DR- Wrong.

 

What is it exactly that only Ash can do?

 

Blade Storm is inefficient as far as the time-kills ratio goes. Sure, if those enemies aren't really higher leveled, that team doesn't include some of the most common damage frames, and those players aren't playing a Loki with a good weapon.

Blade Storm is instant cast, ignores armor, has high damage, and can be cast at remote enemies.  No other frame can cast their room-clearing 4 at enemies in another room, become invincible for the duration while restoring shield, and then come back to the starting location ready to attack a third room.  Ash is not weak; Nova, Saryn, etc. are overpowered and trivialize gameplay.  If the only criterion for a good skill is time/kill then every frame but Nova and maybe Saryn has bad skills.  Smoke Screen's radial stagger is also underrated and reaches quite far with Stretch equipped.  Making it able to be cast in the air is a good idea IMO.