Who Is The New Useless Frame?

[Garuger]

You obviously haven't seen a well built Ember.

 

Her animations are slow if you consider 1.5 second casting time slow, cause in my opinion anything around that rate I don't complain about.

Only her 3 is a bit slow to cast in my honest opinion, since unless you use Accelerant (WHICH YOU SHOULD ALMOST ALYWAYS, ESPECIALLY AT HIGHER LEVELS), you can easily get shot down by enemies.

I've taken my Ember Prime to ODs and Tower 3s and survived well over 45 minutes without much problems. The only time I run into problems is when faced against Napalms on Grineer survivals (but one Accelerant and damage is multiplied by around 400%).

I build her to give over 485 power so I can make sure I leave nothing standing. And to respond to complaints about her 2 ability, she had that removed cause they found a fragile frame to have an armor buff to be illogical (I don't really know why) but I guess they were going for a glass cannon kinda deal, except she needs better scaling really.

 

She's ok as is, at least she can clear rooms with relative ease when fitted correctly and with a well rounded team.

On the Valkyr note, I've played her almost as much as I have with Ember and she is also situational because although her ult doesn't scale right, the invincibility frame can be a TEAM SAVER in case S#&$ hits the fan. Normally if you roll with a Trinity, Valkyr doesn't need her ult to rely on at that point but it works as a failsafe.

Ember doesn't scale as much as others but her AoE and Accelerant can still help quite a bit. 2 second stun? Works ok.

Besides I build her glass cannon like. Only shields I focus on, armor is crap and health is meh. 

Learn 2 be tactical. 

Give me your built then 

[Garuger]

his one good for damage ? I don't know where u been playing but its rubbish and as you just said  its a bug and at some point will be fixed

I meant 2 his 1 is more of situation like when a heavy attacks and you  wwant to relaod pop 1 at it rreload easy peasy

Edited January 22, 2014 by Garuger

[GhostWOlf995]

I meant 2 his 1 is indeed useless

his only good skil is snow globe all other skills are nearly useless

[Shyvorix]

Give me your built then 

Fair enough.

Other than the main 4 abilities obviously maxed, I went as a main part, Energy Siphon, Focus, Flow, Stretch, Redirection (not maxed), Streamline, Continuity.

All maxed except Redirec.

I plan on getting rid of Stretch and relacing with Blind Rage to get even more power out of her to really shred high levels but I gotta find a buyer and a ton of cores to max. I may have to forma again too -_-

As is and with Pheonix Helmet I get 487.5 power total. Highest of all my frames at the moment. I'm rank 7 almost 8 so I know mostly how she rolls and all concerning she was my 1st real frame. Maximizing I'm not fond of so I can't say there.

I can hold my own with a Soma/Karak and Avasto/Aklex/Kunai up to the lvl 60 range, which after that is when I really need to spam my accelerant to keep up damage. 

This is oddly enough the same time where I see some Novas have problems with chain triggering MP so I'm guessing it's just the insane leveling enemies have. 

[Kamal965]

Let's clear something up, shall we?

 

Loki isn't the master race because of his invisibility. No, he's the master race because of his speed, scaling, aggro-shifting with Decoy and ranged attack disables with Radial Disarm. The only thing he doesn't have going for him is his low health/shields and 65 armor, which is still higher than some frames. However, Invisibility skyrockets said survivability, making him all but perfect.

[Garuger]

Fair enough.

Other than the main 4 abilities obviously maxed, I went as a main part, Energy Siphon, Focus, Flow, Stretch, Redirection (not maxed), Streamline, Continuity.

All maxed except Redirec.

I plan on getting rid of Stretch and relacing with Blind Rage to get even more power out of her to really shred high levels but I gotta find a buyer and a ton of cores to max. I may have to forma again too -_-

As is and with Pheonix Helmet I get 487.5 power total. Highest of all my frames at the moment. I'm rank 7 almost 8 so I know mostly how she rolls and all concerning she was my 1st real frame. Maximizing I'm not fond of so I can't say there.

I can hold my own with a Soma/Karak and Avasto/Aklex/Kunai up to the lvl 60 range, which after that is when I really need to spam my accelerant to keep up damage. 

This is oddly enough the same time where I see some Novas have problems with chain triggering MP so I'm guessing it's just the insane leveling enemies have. 

Oh you forma her?Because my built is all of he abilities maxed /blind rage 2 from top / streamline maxed / max redirection / max continuity / max constitution and max fleeting expertise that is with 0 forma is it bad?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Garuger

[Kamal965]

Loki ? Masterrace ?

This frame has absolutely nothing that makes him outstanding - the only thing he does is looking nice.

 

I really can´t stand the fact that he is pushed to heavens and other frames that do basically the same are being bashed - and the damn sound while being invisible makes Loki annoying as hell by the way - and to all complainng about Ash compared to Loki - learn to use Ash properly and he can do almost the same...

 

Loki cannot, in any way, be compared to Ash. I've yet to see an Ash make any Napalm in the vicinity an oversized charger carrying a Prova. Sure, he's fanboyed over, but that's because he is the only frame that doesn't rely on any way in particular, to use overpowered nukes to clear rooms, and it gives a unique play style that we all crave for. He may not clear rooms with Nova, but he gets his damage from his invisible state and melee damage, something Valkyr, a melee oriented frame, still can't 

 

Yet, he is weaker. Loki is the fastest, weakest, frame with no nuking abilities, yet when you get into higher levels the only thing that prevents you from being wiped out is either an invisible Loki, or a Trinity spamming Blessing.

[Garuger]

 

Loki cannot, in any way, be compared to Ash. I've yet to see an Ash make any Napalm in the vicinity an oversized charger carrying a Prova. Sure, he's fanboyed over, but that's because he is the only frame that doesn't rely on any way in particular, to use overpowered nukes to clear rooms, and it gives a unique play style that we all crave for. He may not clear rooms with Nova, but he gets his damage from his invisible state and melee damage, something Valkyr, a melee oriented frame, still can't 

 

Yet, he is weaker. Loki is the fastest, weakest, frame with no nuking abilities, yet when you get into higher levels the only thing that prevents you from being wiped out is either an invisible Loki, or a Trinity spamming Blessing.

 

Loki works quite mysteriously . Even though he is as you said "weak" in lot of sector when you go to high end missions you literally loose Loki (if the player using him is good ) you never know were he is or what he is doing but you know that when you fall he will be the first to heal you and that is quite unique.First time i saw that was at a t2 70 min survival all the time and i mean ALL you never able to track down were he was when i asked my team they only respond: he is doing his thing .And that is why most call him god like because he literally is he always :

 

1) works in mysterious ways because you never know what a Loki is doing 

 

2)he is always next to you when he is needed 

 

3) Almost never becomes a burden to the others

Edited January 22, 2014 by Garuger

[ZT0100]

Fair enough.

Other than the main 4 abilities obviously maxed, I went as a main part, Energy Siphon, Focus, Flow, Stretch, Redirection (not maxed), Streamline, Continuity.

All maxed except Redirec.

I plan on getting rid of Stretch and relacing with Blind Rage to get even more power out of her to really shred high levels but I gotta find a buyer and a ton of cores to max. I may have to forma again too -_-

As is and with Pheonix Helmet I get 487.5 power total. Highest of all my frames at the moment. I'm rank 7 almost 8 so I know mostly how she rolls and all concerning she was my 1st real frame. Maximizing I'm not fond of so I can't say there.

I can hold my own with a Soma/Karak and Avasto/Aklex/Kunai up to the lvl 60 range, which after that is when I really need to spam my accelerant to keep up damage. 

This is oddly enough the same time where I see some Novas have problems with chain triggering MP so I'm guessing it's just the insane leveling enemies have. 

I don't like it. Not energy efficient enough. Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, Narrow Minded, Stretch, Focus, Redirection. Take out Fireball and Ring of Fire for other mods if needed.  You don't need Flow when you have maxed efficiency.

 

I have trouble finding a balance with Ember. It's hard finding the balance when she depends on everything; range, duration, strength, and efficiency. I haven't really tried with her since no potato on.

Edited January 22, 2014 by ZT0100

[Shyvorix]

Oh you forma her?Because my built is all of he abilities maxed /blind rage 2 from top / streamline maxed / max redirection / max continuity / max constitution and max fleeting expertise that is with 0 forma is it bad?

I'm probably wrong on the forma. I think I forma'd the aura slot to fit an energy siphon but I don't remember. I have to recheck and make sure cause I can't recall accurately. Cause one mod was giving me problems I think. I'll get back to ya when I can.

[Shyvorix]

I don't like it. Not energy efficient enough. Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, Narrow Minded, Stretch, Focus, Redirection. Take out Fireball and Ring of Fire for other mods if needed.  You don't need Flow when you have maxed efficiency.

 

I have trouble finding a balance with Ember. It's hard finding the balance when she depends on everything; range, duration, strength, and efficiency. I haven't really tried with her since no potato on.

Well knowing she doesn't scale that well to very high levels I'd sacrifice RANGE for overall power. But I'm not sure if I'd sacrifice for energy efficiency. I normally don't have any problems with energy UNLESS I'm spamming abilities constantly, which is really not often. I'd just accelerant then WoF, Fireball and Fire Blast atr situational, FB I use for choke points, Fireball just focused fire. I don't have a thing for taking out skill slots (I have a little peeve for that), but I'll look into that setup, do some calc and I'll see which works for what.

[DraikoHunter]

I for one believe that all frames have a use, one way or another. Despite their faults (and they all have them) they can useful in certain situations. Play around with the frames and you'll find a use for all of them. 

 

My two cents don't react angrily please.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I for one believe that all frames have a use, one way or another. Despite their faults (and they all have them) they can useful in certain situations. Play around with the frames and you'll find a use for all of them. 

 

My two cents don't react angrily please.

 

I don't think anyone is denying that every frame has at least one area where they are useful, the problem is when that area is rare and/or their abilities in that area are massively overshadowed by one or more of the other frames. I have a version of every frame (i.e- I have Excal, but not excal prime).

[TrashSpider]

I for one believe that all frames have a use, one way or another. Despite their faults (and they all have them) they can useful in certain situations. Play around with the frames and you'll find a use for all of them. 

 

My two cents don't react angrily please.

No worries on the angry mob part man. I honestly agree with you. For the most part though each frame has a certain niche to fill in, some can be the jack of all trades, while other excel at doing one or more things. I feel however you have to also think outside the box to make each frame more viable as well, and install certain mods that would take a certain X amount of time to grind (RNG...), and most of us don't have that time. From what I seen in this thread so far, people have already given their thoughts and have given good support (like Valkyr for example is actually useful, and have in fact found effective means to use her). Its really the learning curve of this game, some frames forcing you to peddle up a hill to actually see its actually better than what you thought. I however have not peddle up this hill enough to see who useful or in need of rework though. My two cents.

[ThePresident777]

LOL, nerfers complaining about Frost and he's tied for 5th useless. BWHAHAHAHAH  Let's all watch Extra Credits BWHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Edited January 23, 2014 by ThePresident777

[K_Shiro]

Frost is fine because his role is fine too. Her globeis strong but with an overextend  a glitch occurs were his ult frozes pretty much everything in a huge radious his 1 is also good for damage same goes for ult.Built him towards damage and enjoy :D

 

So you need a glitch to make it viable... that really redeems it. First skill for damage? Seriously? I purposedly mentioned that a skill that effectively is useless then it's not considered using it. Frosts 1st skill having about half the damage of Volt's while that ability even arcing to other enemies and actually not needing the tedious precise aiming which Freeze does... well you can guess. Freeze would be fine if you could at least use it for more than creating a breather - by the way, does it still make bosses invulnerable in some cases?

 

And seriously, for 4th ability how many nuke AoEs do we have? Half of the frames or more and they have no significant difference. Hell no.

 

I'm starting to think you are just trolling - even if you accept his abilities as they are at least look around and see how inbalanced they are compared to each other (in terms of usefulness) and if you want damage so much, compared to other frames' abilities.

[MushrooMars]

Loki works quite mysteriously . Even though he is as you said "weak" in lot of sector when you go to high end missions you literally loose Loki (if the player using him is good ) you never know were he is or what he is doing but you know that when you fall he will be the first to heal you and that is quite unique.First time i saw that was at a t2 70 min survival all the time and i mean ALL you never able to track down were he was when i asked my team they only respond: he is doing his thing .And that is why most call him god like because he literally is he always :

 

1) works in mysterious ways because you never know what a Loki is doing 

 

2)he is always next to you when he is needed 

 

3) Almost never becomes a burden to the others

I really like that explanation of Loki. Is that how others see him or is he just a troll? I have no idea as I'm a member of the Master Race.

Edited January 23, 2014 by MushrooMars

[Archwizard]

Yeah, the general usefulness of a frame is very much so subjective, so we instead need to talk about the potential usefulness of a Frame. Potential means ability to be modded and ability to be played for maximum effect. To this end, we have to take power ceilings, skill ceilings and survivability into effect.

 

Low survivability:

Saryn

Excalibro

Ember

Volt

Nekros

Oberon

Mag

 

Now skill ceilings

 

Low skill ceiling:

Nekros

Rhino

Trinity

Frost

Nyx

 

And finally power ceilings:

 

Low tier:

Banshee

Ash

Frost

Nekros

 

Banshee, Ash, Nekros are all good examples of Frames who are average or &#! all the way across the board. I don't really count Nekros' Desecrate into power ceiling, as Desecrate is an ability which affects the meta and only the meta, and nothing else. Well, aside from dropping Health Orbs, which is actually pretty useful.

 

But I ramble. My point is that Warframes that have low or average power ceiling and survivability need to compensate for it with a high skill ceiling, just like Loki. Frames that could benefit from this include Banshee, Valkyr, Ash and Nekros. 

 

Thank you, yes, finally. A point I've been trying to make about Nekros for ages: His skills are too restrictive.

Useful, even lifesaving? Perhaps, but so are root canals and ipecac; they're also painful to experience and totally avoidable.

Versatile? No; three of his skills are used as CCs when only one of them is supposed to be- the other two are just picking up its unfortunate slack- and the last relies on gimmicks for maximum effectiveness.

Fun? Definitely not, especially when your single most-cast skill expends more energy than most Ultimates to... loot. With more RNG behind its success than any other skill in the game, and zero base effect.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Archwizard

[TrashSpider]

*tier system has been updated, thanks goes to mushrooMars

Edited January 23, 2014 by cryotech9020

[TrashSpider]

*updated poll

Same ranking as before, however 3rd place is taken by Frost, Banshee is no longer in 3rd.

[Shanicus]

Yeah, the general usefulness of a frame is very much so subjective, so we instead need to talk about the potential usefulness of a Frame. Potential means ability to be modded and ability to be played for maximum effect. To this end, we have to take power ceilings, skill ceilings and survivability into effect.

 

Low survivability:

Saryn

Excalibro

Ember

Volt

Nekros

Oberon

Mag

 

Mid-range survivability:

Loki

Booben

Ash

Nova

Valkyr

Banshee

 

High survivability:

Nyx

Rhino

Frost

 

God-tier survivability:

Trinity lulz

 

Now skill ceilings

 

High skill ceiling:

Loki

Booben

 

Mid-range skill ceiling:

Nova

Ash

Excalibro

Valkyr

Mag

Ember

Oberon

Volt

Banshee

Saryn

 

Low skill ceiling:

Nekros

Rhino

Trinity

Frost

Nyx

 

And finally power ceilings:

 

God tier:

Nova

Nyx

 

High tier:

Rhino

Trinity

Ember

 

Mid tier:

Excalibro

Loki

Booben

Mag

Oberon

Volt

Valkyr

 

Low tier:

Banshee

Ash

Frost

Nekros

 

Survivability defines how resistant a frame is to being incapped, and how independent it is.

Skill Ceiling defines how much a frame benefits from its user's ability to intelligently cast abilities and avoid unfavorable situations.

Power Ceiling defines how much a frame is capable of doing with its powers alone, and how much it benefits from good modding. Also how dominant it is in the early game and how well it scales into the lategame.

There is a fourth attribute, Team Interplay, but I can't really judge this one because it depends heavily on the team you have.

 

To this end, we can determine that the "best" 'Frames are the ones with high survivability, high power ceiling, and either a lack of skill requirements, or a skill ceiling high enough to compensate for its otherwise lacklustre features.

 

There are a few exemplar frames to this end. Rhino, Trinity, both of whom have ridiculously high survival potential, low skill requirements and a high power ceiling. Loki, who has average power potential and survivability, though makes up for it by how skillful the player can be. Nova and Nyx, who have such high power ceilings that player skill and survivability don't even matter. Banshee, Ash, Nekros are all good examples of Frames who are average or &#! all the way across the board. I don't really count Nekros' Desecrate into power ceiling, as Desecrate is an ability which affects the meta and only the meta, and nothing else. Well, aside from dropping Health Orbs, which is actually pretty useful.

 

But I ramble. My point is that Warframes that have low or average power ceiling and survivability need to compensate for it with a high skill ceiling, just like Loki. Frames that could benefit from this include Banshee, Valkyr, Ash and Nekros. Warframes that have a high or god-tier power ceiling and survivability level need to be redesigned so that their raw, ugly power is devalued by poor playing, and amplified by good playing. Frames that need this retooling include Rhino, Nova, Frost and Nyx.

That's a pretty good list, though I'd argue that Saryn has at least mid-tier survivability - unlike Ash she's got the armour to successfully HP tank, so she can take a solid hit even at the higher levels where everyone else is getting one-hit killed. While her abilities don't really benefit her survivability (Molt is the only one, but that is very skill related in how it benefits you), just running off stats should give her a bigger survivability rating alone. Likewise with Mag, who can rather successfully shield-tank thanks to Shield Polarize regenerating a massive chunk of her HP with every use.

Outside those two, general agreement with all the other frames positions.

[Sollet]

These lists are based on individuals playing ability. You can make arguments about different ability stats all you want, but it's up to the player.

Just going to say, pointless.

 

 

Not really, some of the frames do really need some rework. 

You are missing the point of this thread.

[GhostWOlf995]

So the ranking

1.Vauban/mag

2.Rhino/nyx/nova

3.Volt/excalibur/ember

4.Banshee/nekros/oberon/saryn/loki

5.Trinity

6.Frost/ash

7.Valkyr

Intresting. This is totaly different from what i expected,and there mistakes for sure. I dont think mag is that high,she is a good frame but not one of the bests.. Vauban is very good , he have the most cc.. i think that the 2 group is preatty accurate,all of them are good frames, all of them can hold their ground.3 group,i wouldnt rank volt and excal that high,thay just cant to a lot to the team,their damage is not impprtant past lv50.4 i would agree but all of them need rework,some of their skill are just there because they need to have 4 skills.5 totaly wrong,trinity is way to good,she should be in group 1 or 2. She has everything,cc,buffs,can tank,inffinite energy,etc..6 i would agree,ash is uselles unles you play alone,expect the only thing that he can do is revive a team mate when needed nothing else. Frost is my main frame,but i need to agree he is only usefull in defenses just because of globe,you can take out all others skill and you didnt lossed a thing,you dont even have to mod him right,just have energy for globe and you are good to go..7 valkyr is uselles,she cannot do a thing in high lv, she need her ult to survive,later every mob can 1 shoot her,and whit ult she cannot do enought damage..

Sry for english

[Shradnown]

Agree to most of the "new tier system", but how is valkyrs 30 sec INVINCINBILITY (without duration mods) a mid tier survivability?

[GhostWOlf995]

Agree to most of the "new tier system", but how is valkyrs 30 sec INVINCINBILITY (without duration mods) a mid tier survivability?

Because w/o that she is crap,she need her ult to survive high lv enemies while dont dealing damage