Detron Is Not Op, Please Don't Nerf.

[.Talia.]

Recently a similar topic was closed by a DE due to disrespectful comments, so lets keep this discussion healthy and be polite, so this topic don't get closed too.

 

I'm gona start by saying that i have a Detron and have been using it for a few days, mine has 3 formas so i'm not just some guy that got his Detron yesterday and rushed to the forums to talk about something he didn't even properly tested. I've done ODD, ODS, T3 Defense and T3 Survival with it so i know how it behaves on higher levels. I'm talking about the regular high levels, what most players face daily.

 

For those interested, you can see how my Detron is coming out right here:

 

Some nerf herder (what's wrong with those guys anyway? this game is not even PvP) already asked for a Detron nerf, claiming its OP and his argument was that the Detron don't have damage fall-off so it should be nerfed. He was comparing it to Brakk and his exact words were "It has slightly less damage, but its more accurate and has no damage fall-off" So i'm gonna talk about each of these arguments below.

 

To start with, let's get something clear, i'm just talking about the Brakk because he was using it as a reason to his argument for nerfing the Detron, so let's follow his reason and do some logic comparisions. A fully modded Brakk has the highest DPS in the game and not just on secondaries, its 35% higher than the second highest DPS that happens to be a primary, the Synapse, and almost 40% higher than the third highest DPS, the Soma. Now slightly is a word that implies a little, a small amout, and i'm gona demonstrate that the Detron is not slightly less powerful than the Brakk. I have some damage-per-second calculations, and also damage-per-shot of the highest DPS secondary weapons below on the spoiler code. I'm not going to use fully modded builds, for a better picture i'll be using just 3 maxed mods for balancing reasons: Hornet Strike, Lethal Torrent, and Barrel Diffusion. But the results scales are the same using any build with elemental mods and you can check if you want, just go to dpsframe.com and compare the numbers.

 

- Brakk 4756 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Piercing 386
Slashing 464
Impact 696
Total per shot 1546

 

Stats
Fire Rate 8.00
Reload Speed 1.00
Magazine Capacity 5.00
Crit Chance 15.00%
Crit Damage 200%
Status Chance 10.00%

 

- Stug 3886 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Corrosive 672
Corrosive (DoT) 81
Total per shot 753

 

Stats
Fire Rate 10.67
Reload Speed 2.00
Magazine Capacity 20.00
Crit Chance 0.00%
Crit Damage 200%
Status Chance 2.00%

 

- Akbolto 2771 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Piercing 372
Impact 41
Total per shot 413

 

Stats
Fire Rate 16.00
Reload Speed 2.60
Magazine Capacity 30.00
Crit Chance 2.50%
Crit Damage 200%
Status Chance 7.50%

 

- Wraith Twin Vipers 2537 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Piercing 19
Slashing 19
Impact 152
Total per shot 190

 

Stats
Fire Rate 40.00
Reload Speed 2.00
Magazine Capacity 40.00
Crit Chance 18.00%
Crit Damage 200%
Status Chance 5.00%

 

- Detron 2537 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Radiation 988
Total per shot 988

 

Stats
Fire Rate 5.28
Reload Speed 1.00
Magazine Capacity 5.00
Crit Chance 10.00%
Crit Damage 150%
Status Chance 10.00%

 

- Acrid 2089 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Toxic 181
Toxic (DoT) 181
Total per shot 363

 

Stats
Fire Rate 10.67
Reload Speed 1.20
Magazine Capacity 15.00
Crit Chance 2.50%
Crit Damage 150%
Status Chance 10.00%

 

- Bronco Prime 1958 DPS

 

Shot Damage
Piercing 127
Slashing 127
Impact 1016
Total per shot 1270

 

Stats
Fire Rate 6.72
Reload Speed 2.00
Magazine Capacity 4.00
Crit Chance 2.50%
Crit Damage 150%
Status Chance 2.50%

    

 

As you all can see, the Detron is tied with the Wraith Twin Vipers as the fourth highest DPS, comparing only secondaries and not primaries. The Brakk has almost double the amount of raw damage per second the Detron can inflict. I would not call that "slightly less". I would call that a lot more. Also note its slower fire rate than the Brakk. Also note Brakk's higher crit chance and crit damage. Not only that, but Detron has no polarities, as opposed to the Brakk that starts with two. So its a bit silly to try to compare these two weapons, there is na abyss of power separating those two.

 

Now let's think about the other two arguments used on the demand to nerf the Detron, the accuracy, and no damage fall-off. Detron has two specific characteristics to compensate the fact that it does not have damage fall-off: a very wide spread, and projectile travel time. Also, for being a Laser weapon, it makes perfectly sense the lack of damage fall-off, also remember this weapon is not hit-scan.

 

Lets analyze the spread first. Detron has very wide spread, possibly the widest spread of all hand shotguns in the game, so the argument about it having high accuracy simply is not true. I've done some testings playing solo using a vauban and deploying waypoints to see the exact distance of the targets, and on 30 meters you will miss close to half of the pellets due to the spread, and on only 50 meters away you will actually hit only 1 pellet most of the time, dealing insignificant damage. To hit all the pellets and do full damage you have to be standing right in front of the target, just like the other hand-shotguns.

 

Now lets analyze the pellet travel speed. Projectile travel time makes it really hard to hit moving targets far away, any player who owns a Bolt weapon or any Corpus laser weapon like the Dera, Supra, or Tetra, knows that. Now add the travel time to the wide spread and you don't even have to see it in-game to imagine that its not viable to hit moving targets at a distance.

 

/ tl;dr

 

The Detron is far from the "Corpus version of the Brakk" we all dream of, its a good weapon, very versatile for having innate elemental damage, its good at very close-range and bad at long-range as you would expect a hand-shotgun to be. It don't have damage fall-off because it compensates with a wide spread and projectile travel time. Its balanced as it is. Its not an Overpowered weapon, and don't need to be nerfed.

Edited January 25, 2014 by RexSol

[Kracken]

detron is a elemental shotgun- pistol (which elemental weapon have a falloff !?) - a lot of people is forgetting that, and since its a radiation its most effective against most bosses and some heavy Grineer units- and that's it.

brakk is considered its counterpart - but this weapon is not only more balanced but can be used effectively on any enemy.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Cracken

[Magmahunter]

Drakgoon also doesn't have falloff dmg, and a variable accuracy (depending on charge time), but why would we nerf it Hek-style?

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

mmm, this smells like a "buff detron" post in disguise....

 

jk

[Tali]

i read it all and i must say, i agree with you with 100%

[Tulzscha]

I wish more weapon feedback threads were like this, solid points backed up by extensive testing.

[VKhaun]

Like Cracken said. Being elemental and being on par with the best physical damage is basically saying it's OP since it is both more flexible and will have larger increases in damage vs the correct targets.

Radiation is also a VERY flexible damage type that's effective on many bosses, stalker, harvester, and even Ancient Healers. Radiation is also a special consideration because it uses electric which is needed for other core combos. That means you can do things with Detron that aren't possible with any other weapon such as Magnetic + Radiation.

I have no feelings about it being nerfed or not. Haven't gotten it yet. Just food for thought.

Edited January 24, 2014 by VKhaun

[Earz]

It's like that one guy that complained he couldn't snipe with a Supra.

Who would snipe with a gun that has ridiculous spread in the first place? You just don't do such things.

[IIJetfireII]

Nah, theres no need to nerf this weapon, its a good weapon and has its own advantage, against mainly grineer heavies and other types on other factions too. I like the way the weapon is, although yet to use it more often yet, but i do hope they really don't bother on nerf or buff comments cuz this weapon's good as enjoyable as it should be. I am keeping this weapon for permanent basis with my other secondaries, since its one of the weapon i wanted since gradivus event, so yeah, this weapons totally worth it.

 

Its radiation damage is what i really wanted on to use those napalms and bombards, pretty much to make them turn back on their teammates while they do the same on them too :D ( and gonna see to use separate combo to be effective against grineer completely after i start formaing it cuz its potatoed already :D ). +1 on your post :D

Edited January 24, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII

[Trowicia]

Detron does NOT need a nerf. 100% agree with OP, very well-constructed analysis on the weapon as well!

[NyghttheClassy]

My god, someone actually made an argument with research and evidence over straight screaming... well done sir.

 

And these threads trying to swing it for nerfs/buffs make me wonder what it will be like when Harvy actually manages to hunt me for a bit

[DiabolusUrsus]

As convincing as your feedback is at first, I am less inclined to believe that the Detron is "not OP" and more inclined to believe that the Brakk is simply much much more OP than the Detron. I have a Brakk, but don't have a Detron, so this is coming from the persepective of someone who has not extensively tested the Detron, but is taking the overall feel of most of Warframe's other weapons into account.

Looking at your list of caclulations, I'm inclined to believe that the Akbolto and Bronco Prime are the most "balanced" weapons there, with the Brakk, Detron, Wipers and Stug being individual variations of "OP." The Wipers and Stug deal some insane damage, but suffer from terrible ammo economy. The Akbolto suffer from a rather restrictive base damage multiplier, and projectile travel time compounded by the need to consistently land shots. Without doubt, the Brakk is off-the-charts. Excellent ammo economy, staggeringly high damage output, and hitscan projectiles. With Polarities to top it off. The point here is that "the Detron is not OP because all these other weapons are more OP" is a poor argument, in spite of the fact that it is a well-reasoned argument. The Detron may indeed need a bit of a nerf. At the same time, the other mentioned weapons probably need nerfs too.

However, I'd like to introduce a bit of a new concept here. People have a tendency to gravitate towards buffs and shun nerfs, but at the end of the day, both types of changes are for the sole purpose of adjusting how a weapon functions. DE has set a precedent of shotgun-styled weapons having damage falloff. The Detron needs to have some damage falloff past a given range. I have no problem with its minimum falloff distance being set twice as far out as the Brakk's and reducing the Detron's spread, but the falloff needs to be there. On the Drakgoon, too. Technically a nerf, but probably not a change that would alter how you use the weapon in any significant way.

 

On a side note, I am of the opinion that all projectile weapons should feature various damage falloff ranges and that there should be mods that increase those ranges (or reduce them in exchange for some other benefit). You know, so that mods serve the purpose of actually customizing how a weapon works, rather than filling the role of making it viable. You want a Detron that fires over longer ranges? Sure! You can mod for that. You want a Detron that has higher proc chances and staggers, but can't shoot more than 20 feet? Sure, you can mod for that! However, that's another conversation entirely.

Ultimately, I'm not going to say that the Detron "needs a nerf." The Detron "needs an adjustment." DE needs to keep up a level of uniformity when distinguishing what can be expected from various weapon archetypes. They need that basic level of uniformity so that they can build less superficial differences between various weapons within said archetypes. (This needs to happen to all weapons, not just the Detron.) The Soma, Ogris, Synapse, Flux Rifle, Ignis, Torid, Despair, etc. all need different adjustments. I'd go as far as saying that every weapon in the game needs to be "adjusted" to some extent. DE needs to empty the cabinets and start organizing them, so to speak. Giving the Detron some sort of damage falloff just like every other shotgun is part of that process. It doesn't need to be executed in the method its supporters are dreading, but it needs to happen.

[Yastin]

This times infinity. I'm sorry, but hardly anyone even HAS the Detron yet. To call for it's nerf based on speculation and bias (IE no fall-off = better despite lower damage to start and travel-time.) I thank you whole-heartedly for making a real comparison, and even, y'know, proving you actually have the weapon. Thank you, OP. I sincerely hope your Detron's radiation does not give you cancer.

[Garuger]

As convincing as your feedback is at first, I am less inclined to believe that the Detron is "not OP" and more inclined to believe that the Brakk is simply much much more OP than the Detron. I have a Brakk, but don't have a Detron, so this is coming from the persepective of someone who has not extensively tested the Detron, but is taking the overall feel of most of Warframe's other weapons into account.

Looking at your list of caclulations, I'm inclined to believe that the Akbolto and Bronco Prime are the most "balanced" weapons there, with the Brakk, Detron, Wipers and Stug being individual variations of "OP." The Wipers and Stug deal some insane damage, but suffer from terrible ammo economy. The Akbolto suffer from a rather restrictive base damage multiplier, and projectile travel time compounded by the need to consistently land shots. Without doubt, the Brakk is off-the-charts. Excellent ammo economy, staggeringly high damage output, and hitscan projectiles. With Polarities to top it off. The point here is that "the Detron is not OP because all these other weapons are more OP" is a poor argument, in spite of the fact that it is a well-reasoned argument. The Detron may indeed need a bit of a nerf. At the same time, the other mentioned weapons probably need nerfs too.

However, I'd like to introduce a bit of a new concept here. People have a tendency to gravitate towards buffs and shun nerfs, but at the end of the day, both types of changes are for the sole purpose of adjusting how a weapon functions. DE has set a precedent of shotgun-styled weapons having damage falloff. The Detron needs to have some damage falloff past a given range. I have no problem with its minimum falloff distance being set twice as far out as the Brakk's and reducing the Detron's spread, but the falloff needs to be there. On the Drakgoon, too. Technically a nerf, but probably not a change that would alter how you use the weapon in any significant way.

 

On a side note, I am of the opinion that all projectile weapons should feature various damage falloff ranges and that there should be mods that increase those ranges (or reduce them in exchange for some other benefit). You know, so that mods serve the purpose of actually customizing how a weapon works, rather than filling the role of making it viable. You want a Detron that fires over longer ranges? Sure! You can mod for that. You want a Detron that has higher proc chances and staggers, but can't shoot more than 20 feet? Sure, you can mod for that! However, that's another conversation entirely.

Ultimately, I'm not going to say that the Detron "needs a nerf." The Detron "needs an adjustment." DE needs to keep up a level of uniformity when distinguishing what can be expected from various weapon archetypes. They need that basic level of uniformity so that they can build less superficial differences between various weapons within said archetypes. (This needs to happen to all weapons, not just the Detron.) The Soma, Ogris, Synapse, Flux Rifle, Ignis, Torid, Despair, etc. all need different adjustments. I'd go as far as saying that every weapon in the game needs to be "adjusted" to some extent. DE needs to empty the cabinets and start organizing them, so to speak. Giving the Detron some sort of damage falloff just like every other shotgun is part of that process. It doesn't need to be executed in the method its supporters are dreading, but it needs to happen.

No to everything 

[Garuger]

I just got Detron after so much farming why there are people who want to nerf everything?D:

Besides it is a laser shotgun.Laser cant have drop off since it is light .Not to mention you are

the only one that did a proper research and thank you for that. Why people cant be like you?

Edited January 24, 2014 by Garuger

[Garuger]

I wish more weapon feedback threads were like this, solid points backed up by extensive testing.

You know something is wrong when a moderator comment  like that 

Edited January 24, 2014 by Garuger

[SALE94]

Detron is awesome for general use, all factions that is all it matters.

 

Also pew pew pew Bzz.

Edited January 24, 2014 by SALE94

[Trowicia]

Besides it is a laser shotgun.Laser cant have drop off since it is light.

This is also to be considered. If Detron fires light/energy projectiles I don't necessarily see why it needs the type of falloff damage that some people have been requesting. Don't get me wrong, they could still very much add falloff damage to it, but I can't see them adding it to the extent where it's up/down to par with Brakk or whatever else is being compared.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Trowicia

[Ratiasu]

This and the Drakgoon are the only shotgun type weapons in the game that have projectile travel time. This also counts for something. Another reason for them not to have damage fall-off. The coffee machine prime doesn't have either, though. I'd say the Detron is a nice end-game weapon which requires a lot of luck on the RNG side of things to get, and as such automatically has an artificial minimum time invested requirement. It's good the way it is.

[notionphil]

detron seems fine. Also 'raw' dps of detron is higher than Bronco Prime mostly bc of the reload speed, and the critical rate. EG: it's not reliable DPS.

 

Gut feeling? Bronco Prime will equal or outdamage Detron in burst DPS (taking down one heavy), and win in Single Shot Kills most of the time.

 

Detron will be better than some of these weapons in certain situations, and worse in others. That is balance. Good job DE.

Edited January 24, 2014 by notionphil

[LukeAura]

Looking at your list of caclulations, I'm inclined to believe that the Akbolto and Bronco Prime are the most "balanced" weapons there, with the Brakk, Detron, Wipers and Stug being individual variations of "OP." The Wipers and Stug deal some insane damage, but suffer from terrible ammo economy. The Akbolto suffer from a rather restrictive base damage multiplier, and projectile travel time compounded by the need to consistently land shots. Without doubt, the Brakk is off-the-charts. Excellent ammo economy, staggeringly high damage output, and hitscan projectiles. With Polarities to top it off.

DE has set a precedent of shotgun-styled weapons having damage falloff. The Detron needs to have some damage falloff past a given range.

I don't think you can say they deal insane damage, but suffer form terrible ammo economy and be Op. That seems more than a reasonable tradeoff. 

Nor can you really say the Akbolto is hindered by its need to land consistent shots over travel time makes it balanced, and that the same effect along with spread making it even more difficult to deal consistent and decent damage doesn't make the Detron balanced, which does less damage per second. 

They've introduced two Projectile Shotguns now, it seems that this is a new precedent they are setting. Travel time or fall off. 

 

[Marthrym]

ONE thing that makes me cringe... DPS. STOP talking about that damn thing. DPS is good on paper. Not the same in-game. You point out the ridiculous DPS of the Brakk... My counterpoint. INCLUDE the fall-off. OMG damage goes down!  Who'd have thought of that? Oh right, DE DID! We should give them more credit for that decision, I was pissed at first, not anymore because I understand where that decision came from now. The Brakk is a monster AT CLOSE RANGE. Past the 10m mark? Not so great. Past the 20m mark? Spitting at your enemy is more effective. Which is actually GOOD for gameplay! Makes it necessary to use your main weapon or powers too. Synergy people, SYNERGY.

 

Now the Detron? RADIATION. Just that. The current damage table makes this simple elemental combination VERY potent. Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT WANT the Detron to be nerfed. Hell no. I have one, and it's good at what it is supposed to do, which is killing heavily armored targets that would otherwise make you cry because you spent half your ammo on them with other weapons. The Detron is a niche weapon. Imagine the elemental combinations one could make with that thing!

 

As for damage fall-off on Detron :  Well technically, lasers DO lose power over distance. They do. But not the same way shotgun pellets do. So putting fall-off on the Detron would be a bit silly, unless we put it at long range. Which is kinda pointless. And it has travel time, which for lasers is also kinda silly. Lasers are light, and light is supposed to be faster than bullets, right?

 

But let's be frank here. WHY are there people crying for a Detron damage fall-off? Because among the people that asked for a Brakk nerf a few months ago, there were angry Corpus fanboys (sorry guys^^'), pissed because they didn't get their little pewpewpew gun. It's that simple. And whether that nerf was justified or not (it was, really) does not matter here. Now we have the exact same thing happening, the other way around this time. Brakk fanboys (sorry too guys^^') seeking vengeance. And maybe some not fanboys too. Maybe. I don't know why there would be any but hey, why not.

[Makya]

Counting the 50% brakk fall off, doesn't the Brakk at long range do the same DPS as a Detron? So.. the Brakk at its worse is a Detron at its best is a god?

[LukeAura]

Counting the 50% brakk fall off, doesn't the Brakk at long range do the same DPS as a Detron? So.. the Brakk at its worse is a Detron at its best is a god?

Fall off is a little more than 50%, but essentially yes if you consider travel time vs. hit scan as an equalizer.  

[.Talia.]

Counting the 50% brakk fall off, doesn't the Brakk at long range do the same DPS as a Detron? So.. the Brakk at its worse is a Detron at its best is a god?

I'm glad that you asked that, actually the Detron spread is so wide, that its damage in long range is insignificant, even without damage fall off. The Brakk has a damage penality but at least it can land shots. Either way, people forget these category of weapons are supposed to be used at very close range, 20m for the Brakk (50% damage reduction) and 30m for the Detron (will miss 50% of the pellets)