U12 Valkyr Changes Feedback

[ragdollomega]

Just to remark on the animations and why they need fixing. The Corrupted Corpus had figured out Valkyr's weakness with me the other day. Not only did the guy run in circles and ran away from me BUT he went and crouched behind cover. I could not hit him!

 

 

Crouch! Valkyr's only weakness! D:

I though running around in circles was also her weakness. :o

[Redlove108]

I though running around in circles was also her weakness. :o

 

She could use Paralysis to counter that but yea that is another.. shh.

[EinarTheRed]

Ok literally I am kinda getting sick of people complaining that Valkyr, the most OP warframe right now, is weak. Yes, her Warcry and Paralysis can use some more tweaks, but her Hysteria is by far broken. I am currently sitting at about 70 seconds of pure invincibility and one-shotting or two-shotting everything I come by. I ran a 4 man on Hyena and didn't have problems with the fight. Yeah, they were annoying to chase around but in the end, I killed three of four of them personally and the fourth died moments before I got to it. Before you ask, I didn't really have help on the other three, I ended with doing about 80% of the damage. I run with Maximized Duration, Rage, Vitality and of course Steel Fiber. I have high health and take next to no damage, and when I run low on health I have max energy due to Rage. If I want to solo anything, I simply take Valkyr and destroy everything no problem. She isn't "weak". She is broken. Her Paralysis isn't effective because it uses her shields and she has none at all, but  giving her full shields(thus making her like all the other warframes) is not really a fix, its a patch that breaks her a little more. Her being a berserker means she isnt really supposed to care about the coming damage because she can fight through it. The fix should be that she does a bit more damage to make Paralysis a little better, but her  main utility, Hysteria, simply needs to do more damage and not take so much from the weapons or else you find that people only run her with Dual Ichor. You also say that her melee animation is weird. Yeah that's right, but it just takes a little away from her overall strength, and they have already stated that they are redoing the animation. Give a break from the Valkyr sucks posts and actually try some other things out with her because she destroy everything...

[Redlove108]

-snip-

 

 

Then show us the Valkyr you have! Let us see these high damage number she can push out.

 

 

Honestly that duration is too long in my book. I don't even see a need for putting it at 70 secs when your guns can out perform your melee damage. Your just hurting your own dps for an infinite shield protection. At least up until you start facing mobs around lvl 35+. Then your useless in that state.

 

So how is she OP if she can't kill anything but hide in the turtle shell that is her invincibility?

[ragdollomega]

-snip-

Guns do it better. Trinity does it better. Loki and Ash do it better. There are so many things that do one of more aspects of Hysteria better by a landslide. OP? I should think not.

[PsycloneM]

Well I am totally agaisnt melee weapon affecting Hysteria, as I said before this would be the only frame you wouldn't use to rank up your melee weapon meaning another handicap to Valkyr and to her Hysteria.

 

As far as I know, there are few other abilities affected by the weapons you use : Antimatter Drop, Energy Shield, Contagion and Sonar. And the comparison ends here, there is a clear difference in cost, effectiveness and even scaling for each of them. And their efficiency/utility is a base added to the weapon, not the other way around meaning you don't have to mod the weapon in order to make the ability scale more but the ability makes your weapon damage scaling. And none of them are "ultimate" or the core ability of the frame, Sonar excepted but...truly nothing more that's similar to Hysteria.

 

And as I said earlier, newcommers can't manage to get such builds in their early game while Jupiter is low tier planet making Valkyr easily craftable. they will just end up using Valkyr with their Cronus, or even if they bought Dual Zoren or Cleaver, their Hysteria is gonna deal really poor damage. I'm too lazy to use your formula for such a case, but the numbers must be quite ridiculous.

At those low levels, pressing 4 is a high cost in energy so it must have a strong effect. Mag's Crush, Rhino's Stomp, Oberon's Reckoning or Ember's WoF even Excal Radial Javelin have in comparison way more effectiveness as those frames are also easy to get or are starter ones.

 

And whatever the changes they will give to melee weapons, the formula itself limits her to critical builds for a maximum efficiency. That's not what hurts the most but it's a restriction added to a warframe that truly doesn't need it.

 

Edit : Mea Culpa, completely forgot about Molecular prime when speaking about abilities. Actually this one is the center of Nova's gameplay but...well do I have to say anything more ?

 

While I do think there is a problem with the current Hysteria due to the limited number of weapons that actually improve your damage output compared to old values, I do not think the issue that's causing this problem is the fact that Hysteria scales with melee weapon damage. Not being able to gain melee weapon XP has always been the case with Hysteria. It could be a bug, it could be intentional. However, Hysteria wouldn't be the first ability that prevents your warframe from gaining XP in some fashion. Either way, this has nothing to do with Hysteria scaling with weapon damage.

 

There are abilities that enhance your weapon damage via additive or multiplicative bonuses, and there are abilities that draw from your weapon damage. Of the powers that you listed, only Antimatter Drop does the latter. Hysteria and Antimatter Drop's damage calculation are actually very similar in structure.

 

Antimatter Drop:

100 + 4 x ( total weapon damage )

 

Hysteria:

300 + 1.75 x ( normal attack damage )

 

Both powers require input that is drawn directly from the damage that you inflict. Each has constant base damage, and each uses a specific multiplier. These powers obviously have completely different mechanics, so this is essentially where the comparison ends. Melee damage is currently one of the least efficient ways to dispatch enemies, and now you have a power that draws from that: a 100-energy cost power. The problem doesn't lie within the damage calculation in my opinion, but the melee weapons themselves. Most have piddly base damage, which only leaves a handful of weapons with high base damage and high critical damage that work well with Hysteria.

 

Despite Hysteria's limitations, the weapon damage scaling creates a foundation for increased damage potential and viability when melee weapons receive the attention they need. With a 66.7% damage increase for Orthos Prime, I already provided an example of how it would be possible to inflict nearly 10k crits without needing a high critical damage weapon. Yes, a weapon with high base damage and a high critical damage would still be the most effective weapon to use, but it would not necessarily be a requirement. This is why I would rather wait for Melee 2.0 to come into effect to see just how weapon stats are modified.

 

As for newcomers dealing trivial damage, consider that most enemies between level 1-20 are going to have less than 1000 total hitpoints. Let's say a new player only managed to acquire Pressure Point and Organ Shatter before leveling up Valkyr for the first time. With the old Hysteria, the total damage inflicted before resistances would be:

 

100 x 1.75 x 3 = 525 damage ( 1050 / 2100 damage criticals ).

 

 

With the new Hysteria and Cronus, and the common mods I mentioned previously:

 

3 x [ 100 + ( 1.75 / 3 ) x 35 x ( 1 + 1.2 ) ] = 435 damage ( 1239 / 2478 damage criticals).

 

 

Very similar to the old Hysteria, while being sufficient enough to kill most level 1-20 enemies in 1-3 hits. With Dual Cleavers:

 

3 x [ 100 + ( 1.75 / 3 ) x 25 x ( 1 + 1.2 ) ] = 396 damage ( 2259 / 4517 damage criticals).

 

 

Again, this isn't tragic for low-level play. Massive AoE nukes are always going to limit the number of enemies to kill in a room with melee damage: a situation that is not exclusive to new players.

 

If all melee weapons receive an increase in base damage, then Dual Ichor or any other high critical damage weapon might not be a necessity in order to inflict greater damage than before. Of course, high critical damage and high base damage are going to heavily contribute to Hysteria, and players are going to gravitate toward such weapons to maximize their potential. However, this behavior can be observed with Antimatter Drop as players tend to strive for maximum DPS weapons. The significant difference is that it does not take as many resources for Antimatter Drop to deal its magic. This is the kind of flexibility that I want to see with Hysteria, giving the player options to use various weapons and not confining them to a small handful. As Melee 2.0 is several weeks away, we'll just have to wait and see how viable the melee system has become.

Edited February 9, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Cyrionn]

While I do think there is a problem with the current Hysteria due to the limited number of weapons that actually improve your damage output compared to old values, I do not think the issue that's causing this problem is the fact that Hysteria scales with melee weapon damage. Not being able to gain melee weapon XP has always been the case with Hysteria. It could be a bug, it could be intentional. However, Hysteria wouldn't be the first ability that prevents your warframe from gaining XP in some fashion. Either way, this has nothing to do with Hysteria scaling with weapon damage.

I have been leveling melee weapons with Valkyr (damn heat dagger...) and before U12 using Hysteria in such a situation had the same efficiency and damage output than using it with my four forma Orthos P.

Now you just can't expect Hysteria to deal damage while leveling the Pangolin sword you had on alert, and not everyone has reached mastery 14 yet so this is an handicap. You wanna go in ODS to level up some gear including your melee weapon, you can forget about Valkyr.

This is what I meant, did she deserved an handicap added to her kit (as peculiar as it can seem) for just a small improvement in damage and armor ? I prefered the older version.

 

Now I must say that your post makes sense and you proved me wrong, I have to admit that the damage didn't fell down as I thought.

 

That said, sorry for the pessimistic attitude but DE has already enough problems making abilities and kits relevant when they depend on nothing but their own values, now they want to balance an ability that already relies on the fact that melee weapons will be balanced.

This is just taking a harder path for the sake of trying to please the ones asking "make our melee affect Hysteria". And this was reclaimed by player as an easy alternative to "fix Hysteria right now", a complete rework would have make much more sense, not a semi-buff waiting for another coming soon update and its hotfixes to be completely relevant.

 

And now on a roleplay side of the thing, Hysteria is meant to be a state of berserk rage in which Valkyr throws away her weapons to use her claws, therefore fully enjoying the thrill of battle by soaking her hands with deep red blood.

Does it sounds normal that the weapon you threw away and its mods affects this state ? I'd say not at all.

 

Sorry for being stubborn I just can't see this as the solution for Hysteria for the moment.

Maybe you guys are right, the animation rework and the melee 2.0 will make it finally fun and powerfull. But I really feel like even DE don't really know where they are going with her, making clear announce that melee 2.0 has nothing to do with Hysteria and doing the opposite, the lack of clear values or announce of what they really plan for her...this feels akward.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Cyrionn

[LoopStricken]

And I'm just sitting here in the forums tossing out one-liners about Hysteria being too slow and floaty.

 

Credit due to these players really digging deep into Valkyr. Peeling away her layers, so to speak. Fiddling with her innards.

[Redlove108]

I bet when people said to make our melee weapons affect Valkyr's Hysteria I'm sure everyone thought "ADD" our melee weapon's stats to Hysteria's damage.

[Redlove108]

And I'm just sitting here in the forums tossing out one-liners about Hysteria being too slow and floaty.

 

Credit due to these players really digging deep into Valkyr. Peeling away her layers, so to speak. Fiddling with her innards.

 

 

Oi now. We are not Alad V!

[Cyrionn]

To be honest I always said she's so sexy, I wouldn't mind taking away few more layers... :O

 

 

I bet when people said to make our melee weapons affect Valkyr's Hysteria I'm sure everyone thought "ADD" our melee weapon's stats to Hysteria's damage.

Exactly, but between what as been asked and what has been understood/filtered...there is a world of comprehension !

[PsycloneM]

I have been leveling melee weapons with Valkyr (damn heat dagger...) and before U12 using Hysteria in such a situation had the same efficiency and damage output than using it with my four forma Orthos P.

Now you just can't expect Hysteria to deal damage while leveling the Pangolin sword you had on alert, and not everyone has reached mastery 14 yet so this is an handicap. You wanna go in ODS to level up some gear including your melee weapon, you can forget about Valkyr.

This is what I meant, did she deserved an handicap added to her kit (as peculiar as it can seem) for just a small improvement in damage and armor ? I prefered the older version.

 

Ah, I understand your point now. I agree with you on that. Then again, Valkyr is not the best frame to use in order to level up your melee weapon as Hysteria kills do not contribute to your melee XP gain, unless you stock up on armor and use Warcry outside of Hysteria. That might have been changed with U12, but I can't verify that at the moment since I have no new melee weapons to level up.

 

No need to apologize for your attitude; I understand where you're coming from. I figure why people were not happy with Hysteria's damage output pre-U12 was due to the fact that it did not scale well. To go from fixed damage to a power that depends on weapon damage is a significant change in my opinion. Of course, I think this change has also made the issues regarding melee weapon viability much more apparent. Most weapons have less than 40 base damage with 1.5x criticals, which translates to a damage loss when used with Hysteria. This is not what players had in mind at all when they asked for Hysteria to be affected by weapon damage.

 

Anyway, this isn't about proving who's right or wrong. Your opinions and concerns are just as valid as mine. I'm just here to share my thoughts. Now, whether they implemented this change with U12 or when Melee 2.0 is released, the difference is the amount of downtime between updates. In hindsight, it would ease the conscience of most players if the Hysteria rework and Melee 2.0 were released simultaneously. However, there's nothing we can do about that other than patiently wait. Even if things don't work out, I really don't think it would be that difficult to change the value of the multiplier, and/or integrate elemental damage into the equation in order to make multiple weapons useful for Hysteria. Hang in there; we'll all get through this together.

 

Also, Megan mentioned before the release of U12 that Hysteria would not be affected by Melee 2.0. It's possible she was not aware of Hysteria's upcoming changes. As Hysteria has been modified to account for weapon damage, to me it would not make any sense if Hysteria wasn't affected by Melee 2.0 as all melee weapons are to receive a damage buff according to Geoff. Given that, I understand your skepticism (I'm a little skeptical too), but let's not lose hope.

 

This is all great stuff. So thanks for making this topic and giving us an opportunity to discuss these issues. Hopefully Scott will see and understand our perspectives on the matter.

 

I bet when people said to make our melee weapons affect Valkyr's Hysteria I'm sure everyone thought "ADD" our melee weapon's stats to Hysteria's damage.

 

It does that though. It even multiplies the base damage of your melee weapon by 1.75 before adding to Hysteria's base.

 

The base normal attack damage is just far too low for most weapons. Looking at the list of melee weapons, only one has sufficient base damage that would allow Hysteria to inflict slightly more damage than before: the Jat Kittag. Even with the three high critical damage weapons, your standard attacks will inflict less damage than before. Their saving grace is the 3x damage multiplier that allows them to outperform the old Hysteria when combined with Organ Shatter.

Edited February 9, 2014 by PsycloneM

[HappyFrisbees]

Question: Has anybody tried the Glaive weapon mod that allows punch through on Hysteria? Curious if it'll allow you to hit more than one person at a time.

[thejingle]

Multiplying your weapons base damage is all well and good but it's still silly that when it comes down to it, you generally do less damage in hysteria than you would do out of it. I really dislike the way the current scaling on hysteria works because it's sort of the worst of both worlds. I think it would be much better and more intuitive if it was just non scaling and they buffed the damage, or if they made it actually FULLY SCALE instead of this "only a few mods actually affect it" crap because it makes only a handful of melee weapons worth using. I luckily have a maxed out Dual Ichor so for the time being I can use that, but I dislike the weapon for actually meleeing when compared to stuff like the Scoliac.

 

If I use the Scoliac however, it actually does worse damage than it did before this patch because the 1.75 multiplier is only applied to the weapons base damage instead of the raw damage of the ability. If they just made it use your full melee stats, even stuff like the charge/attack speed, then people would be able to just use the weapons that they enjoy using and find effective as normal melee instead of having to use your melee weapon as a "stat stick" for Hysteria. They could still keep the clumsy and slow hysteria "form" since they seem intent on keeping that despite all the complaints about how bad it feels, and really, the actual form you go into for hysteria is just as  big a problem as the damage, because it makes it useless for 90% of most missions because it slows you down and makes it even harder to be in melee range of mobs than it is normally.

[Cyrionn]

We all agree on this mate and apparently it's being worked on, you know coming soon stuff. :)

[Mysterious_Anon]

I had a few ideas about the abilities, mainly ripline.

 

RIPLINE:

(LMB = left mouse button)

 

so we all know about the shotgun tigris right? hold lmb and it fires one shot, let go of lmb and it fires another.

 

I was thinking we work this into ripline, you press the button to use ripline and hold it down, it will not pull (either you or the enemy) until you let go of the button, and we simply have a way to cancel ripline before pulling the line, this will make it less likely for a player to kill themselves by pulling themselves into a group of evicerators (ask me how I know). also I would reduce the cost, down to 15. this will give it more use and less costly to use in hysteria (since it seems to be for pulling a heavy to you for a finisher) and more mobility for an otherwise lacking mobility melee fighter. reduce the damage if you see it to be fit.

 

 Paralysis

this ability is easy to spam and allows for a little crowd control but overall I just don't find it worth the slots, simply put, it has little range, weaksauce damage and CC, and damages your sheilds (it resets recharge delay). and it seems to get its damage from your current shield as well, 50% *2/2.5/3/3.5 (around there not sure if wiki is correct on numbers) now assuming you are 

 

a) close enough to use it

b) FULL shields

c) not being damaged enough to lose said shields

 

it still is just not worth it, I find my self using warcry and just going all Jill The Ripper hero of justice on everything in the general vicinity instead. very very bad men who are bad.

 

WARCRY:

 

Honestly I have no problem with this ability whatsoever, I love popping this and going all Jill The Ripper hero of great justice on everything in the general vicinity very very bad men.  

 

good ability, viable and increases dps signifigantly with basic attack based weapons.

 

HYSTERIA

well... where do I start

 

I like this ability, even with it's flaws it's FUN TO TEAR PEOPLE APART AHAHAHAHAHAHA  entertaining to see valkyr... incapcitate those evil-doers.

 

(some sentimental music starts*)

 

this latest change was what alot of people wanted (sorta) but not the one valkyr needed.

 

it improves damage with specific setups but it's too specfic, I think claws should be their own "state". having the claws linked to melee weapons means that only specific set ups will be used. 

 

might be interesting if (not sure how this would work) the claws had their own mod page, so we could do what we wanted with them

 

HYSTERIA PART 2: THE RECKONING (sorry had to do it)

 

they need charge attacks, no really they lack something that all other melee options have and it seems a little... odd to me. 

 

maybe have them (only suggestions) always crit or have a high multiplier, or better yet... (this is gonna be good)

 

have the charge attacks lock onto the closest enemy in front of valkyr and charge at them, THEN TEAR THEM APART WITH PREJUDICE  ...

cleave them in half ... umm... give me a moment. Ah-ha! depart from them the burly weight from their poor shoulders and relive from them their burdens (valkyr is a saint) 

 

gives valkyr more mobility and more power and variety on how to build her even if the melee weapon link stays.

 

edit: fogot the mention the animations my bad.

 

so what you all have been waiting for (5 seconds): hysteria part 3 the return!

 

I think that the animations are to floaty and... well elegant. 

 

I was hoping her animations would reflect her description: 

 scarred, angry and frighteningly adept at killing.

 so I was thinking either more smooth... more precise animations (no floating bad DE, bad... jk) think more like a panther, smooth and precise and elagance in form.  

 

Or go the other route

 

AS BRUTAL AS HUMANLY POSSABLE AHAHAHAHA 

more bestial and simply fierce looking attacks, more power but slower maybe a wind up, just to clarify we should be able to keep FULL mobility while swinging in hysteria 

 

also enhable extra zoren coptering on hysteria (because why not)

maybe just make valkyr faster in general.

.//end edit

 

those were my ideas 

 

I'm not crazy I swear

My clearly sane ideas. 

Edited February 10, 2014 by Mysterious_Anon

[Bibliothekar]

I took my Valkyr out of the closet for a few invasion runs yesterday and I was more than underwhelmed ... With your ideas for Ripline and Hysteria I'd actually see me using her again.

Ripling a Lancer out of the landing pod? Well, yes, at best he loses 1/3 of his health. Are you kidding me, DE? Hysteria with Hate equipped, feckin' slow and somewhere around 200 damage per hit. No, thanks, I'll take the usual (Saryn/Nyx/Trinity).

[Zakmonster]

I outlined some ideas I had for Valkyr in another thread.

[Monolake]

....

 

Are you on DEs' salary yet? Seriously your posts are more useful than all the minimal info DE bothers to provide, and without knowing how to build for it new Hysteria is a nerf.  How logical is that "we buffed the skill, but we are not telling you how to get that buff, so enjoy weaker damage until you figure it out" 

[Cyrionn]

Are you on DEs' salary yet? Seriously your posts are more useful than all the minimal info DE bothers to provide, and without knowing how to build for it new Hysteria is a nerf.  How logical is that "we buffed the skill, but we are not telling you how to get that buff, so enjoy weaker damage until you figure it out" 

+12

I said it earlier but this is a very akward communication done by DE. This change was awaited by many players with really high attention and expectations. Not giving a single value when changing the very deep core of Valkyr's gameplay feels like they simply don't care about her.

 

When I watched Devstream #22 I was waiting for something about the U12 fixes. There have been a discussion about Frost but not a single word on Valkyr.

 

Ok there are ten times more posts on this forum talking about Frost's nerf, but I don't feel like any of those is more complete or more thouroughly stating on their subject as this post is. Does this means that to be heard we have to repeat this process on twenty Valkyr posts, and whine harder ?

 

If any DE staff member read this, which I now highly doubt, first make this thread sticky.

I don't care that you copy and paste it under your name so there is no regular players getting his thread sticked but please do it, people made some very good job here relating their impressions after extended tests and I think this deserves as much attention as the commons whining threads, please note I don't say more because every feedback as a value.

 

Then give us maybe a little word like "we noted what you said" just so it feels usefull to post in this section with seriousness as after all we are volunteer testers.

 

And why would you not give us the true values, this would be much appreciated and helpfull to give you some more accurate feedback, it took three pages of this thread just to know what you exactly changed once again by the amazing work of dedicated testers.

 

 

All that said I know it must be tough to come and post on such a topic when you know by advance that tons of whining will follow your post, yet it is your work. You guys doesn't seem to have many testers or time to proceed to those tests before launching. So I guess we do this job for you, and it's a pleasure, but if you could give us the tools for this you could gather some more quality feedback !

Edited February 10, 2014 by Cyrionn

[Monolake]

Another little discovery: Paralysis-staggered enemies are open to stealth-like attack dealing 4x more damage, so Paralysis is not useless afterall!

http://i.imgur.com/CZTVQhc.jpg

and it looks very badass

 

video of a test run on t3-ext Edited February 10, 2014 by Monolake

[ragdollomega]

Another little discovery: Paralysis-staggered enemies are open to stealth-like attack dealing 4x more damage, so Paralysis is not useless afterall!

http://i.imgur.com/CZTVQhc.jpg

and it looks very badass

 

 

video of a test run on t3-ext

Problem is, this happens outside of Hysteria as well and you can get at most two of these in. So when your fighting a whole group of enemies in melee at once and your using Paralysis for its stagger, you can't slash at the 3-5 guys right in front of you. To me, this actually made Paralysis useless. :/

Edit: As a note, this didn't used to happen and I hope they fix it.

Edited February 10, 2014 by ragdollomega

[Cyrionn]

The sneaky berserker would be a very unique concept though...

[Monolake]

Problem is, this happens outside of Hysteria as well and you can get at most two of these in. So when your fighting a whole group of enemies in melee at once and your using Paralysis for its stagger, you can't slash at the 3-5 guys right in front of you. To me, this actually made Paralysis useless. :/

Edit: As a note, this didn't used to happen and I hope they fix it.

You mean you don't want to waste time on a pretty animation of stealth kill? I hate when it happens on Loki, it seem twice slower. Would be good if it was a choice, like alt-attack option. Also I never had that happen in Hysterla before u12 either.

[ragdollomega]

You mean you don't want to waste time on a pretty animation of stealth kill? I hate when it happens on Loki, it seem twice slower. Would be good if it was a choice, like alt-attack option. Also I never had that happen in Hysterla before u12 either.

I think it would be fine as long as it was optional or on Hysteria only (maybe put some use to that charge attack button). I could see why it would be nice if you are fighting, say, a lone bombard and you feel like meleeing that sucka to death, but not when your fighting 5 normal enemies or a horde of infested.