So, Who Thinks We Should Remove Serration, And Weapons Have More Damage With Level Ups?

[lautalocos]

title

 

like this if you want to remove serration

 

like the comment below if you want to keep it

 

also, yes, i really don´t want to make the effort to explain why we should remove serration, im sleepy.

 

edit: also, i should add that this is considering that DE would refund credits/fusion cores if they removed serration.

Edited February 10, 2014 by lautalocos

[lautalocos]

like this if you want to keep serration

[EnForest]

Only after someone compensates my time, money and effort I spent to forma weapons I liked and to level up Serration/other damage mods.

[Skynin]

This kind of mods should be removed. Base damage would scale with level of weapon (that is reasonable). I'm waiting for this very long already.
But with compensation for those who fused these mods (all credits and some fusion cores - maybe even lvl 10)
Also, i can't understand why we can't customize weapon to make it impact/puncture/slash as we want. Bullet type weapons should be customizable in this way (damage type depends on bullet type, so why we can't just switch from impact bullets to slash?).

Edited February 10, 2014 by Skynin

[Paradoxbomb]

I say the best solution is to make it a 50-50 system between the weapon's innate damage and the damage mods, similar to how Warframes level up but can still accept mods. For example, as you level a weapon from 0 to 30, it gradually gets a +75-100% increase in damage, and then a toned down Serration at max rank provides an additional +75-100% bonus. This way, if you're a more casual player or you're running regular low-mid tier missions, you probably won't need Serration at all, as the innate damage bonus should allow you to dish out decent damage up to a certain point, and gives you an extra space to experiment with utility mods.

 

As an added bonus, this helps new players who aren't lucky enough to find serration from being completely screwed over since their weapons will be capable of at least keeping up with stronger enemies. Hard core players will still need to sacrifice some space for that extra 100% of damage, but at least it's no longer a choice between OP or &!$$ poor on any planet past Mercury.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Paradoxbomb

[Valiant]

I believe DE have already said they won't be doing this.

 

If they do they need to refund everyone with all credits and cores spent on any of the mods. I'd be fine if they did this and then balanced the enemies out a bit more too. 

 

Voted for both     ^-^

Edited February 10, 2014 by Naith

[LoneTonberry]

I'm pretty much in the same boat as EnForest here. I dislike having a sizable chunk of my mod energy taken up by this required mod. But at the same time I've put a lot of time, effort, cores and credits into fusing my Serration and it's only at rank 8. So while I do believe that it probably would be better if Serration was removed, there'd have to be some form of compensation for the people that leveled it.

 

Also, I find it weird how shotguns and melee only have a five level mod for damage, but rifles and pistols have a ten level mod.

[lautalocos]

I believe DE have already said they won't be doing this.

 

If they do they need to refund everyone with all credits and cores spent on any of the mods. I'd be fine if they did this and then balanced the enemies out a bit more too. 

 

Voted for both     ^-^

well, of course they should refun players. they only need to count the amount of credits and fusion cores to level serration to x rank, and give that amount to players with serration rank x

[Cyrionn]

I say the best solution is to make it a 50-50 system between the weapon's innate damage and the damage mods, similar to how Warframes level up but can still accept mods. For example, as you level a weapon from 0 to 30, it gradually gets a +75-100% increase in damage, and then a toned down Serration at max rank provides an additional +75-100% bonus. This way, if you're a more casual player or you're running regular low-mid tier missions, you probably won't need Serration at all, as the innate damage bonus should allow you to dish out decent damage up to a certain point, and gives you an extra space to experiment with utility mods.

 

As an added bonus, this helps new players who aren't lucky enough to find serration from being completely screwed over since their weapons will be capable of at least keeping up with stronger enemies. Hard core players will still need to sacrifice some space for that extra 100% of damage, but at least it's no longer a choice between OP or &!$$ poor on any planet past Mercury.

+1 for this

 

But I agree that we need to do something for our way too powerfull arsenal.

[Althix]

and heavy caliber as well right?

 

anyway what this will give us in the end? two mod slots. which means i will have two slots to augment my weapon with a mods i don't use right now. like a... faster reload for example.

 

i game at least some variety for each weapon.

[Hyunsai]

Well, unless they refund the players of the platinum they may have spent buying those (around 250P for Max Serration, can't even imagine for Max Heavy Caliber), that won't happen.

[NeroUmbra]

I say the best solution is to make it a 50-50 system between the weapon's innate damage and the damage mods, similar to how Warframes level up but can still accept mods. For example, as you level a weapon from 0 to 30, it gradually gets a +75-100% increase in damage, and then a toned down Serration at max rank provides an additional +75-100% bonus. This way, if you're a more casual player or you're running regular low-mid tier missions, you probably won't need Serration at all, as the innate damage bonus should allow you to dish out decent damage up to a certain point, and gives you an extra space to experiment with utility mods.

 

As an added bonus, this helps new players who aren't lucky enough to find serration from being completely screwed over since their weapons will be capable of at least keeping up with stronger enemies. Hard core players will still need to sacrifice some space for that extra 100% of damage, but at least it's no longer a choice between OP or &!$$ poor on any planet past Mercury.

 

I could support this.

 

Reduce serration/hornet strike/whatever the shotgun mod is to half their current bonus then apply that as a level up bonus to weapons so that the total at 25 is the current max serration and at 30 the weapon is a little better than the current max.

 

Why?  right now you can cap out a weapon's base damage by applying a maxed serration at level 7 on any rifle with a V slot.  With this modification you could seriously boost the same weapon but it would still continue to improve, eventually getting better than what our current max is.  

 

Heavy Caliber should remain as is as it has a serious trade-off on it's own.

 

This would also open up the possibility of even better weapons with an improved level-up bonus that start off weaker but due to the improved bonus end up stronger in the end...

[LoneTonberry]

and heavy caliber as well right?

 

anyway what this will give us in the end? two mod slots. which means i will have two slots to augment my weapon with a mods i don't use right now. like a... faster reload for example.

 

i game at least some variety for each weapon.

 

I don't know if I'd say Heavy Caliber too, it has a drawback and is nowhere near as required as Serration is for rifles. As it stands right now you absolutely must have Serration in order to do higher level content and have your guns be effective. That's the problem, especially when Serration is an uncommon that feels more like a rare.

[Axterix13]

I'd say the likes of +dmg and the elemental mods all need to have their percentage reduced.  Probably the multishot ones as well.  Of course, that's because weapons overall scale too much when you stack all that stuff currently.  Switching it over to gaining power with levels though?  No point to that.  Levels gets you mod slots.  Mod slots increase your power.  Nothing changes, because you're still not going to use a reload mod or magazine size one unless you don't have something that boosts damage to stick in the slot.

[Axterix13]

I don't know if I'd say Heavy Caliber too, it has a drawback and is nowhere near as required as Serration is for rifles. As it stands right now you absolutely must have Serration in order to do higher level content and have your guns be effective. That's the problem, especially when Serration is an uncommon that feels more like a rare.

I find Serration pretty easy to get.  Pick it up often enough from infestations, thanks to two variations of crawlers dropping it, as well as it being a reward from survivals and T2 defense.

[Paradox52525]

While in general I'm in favor of getting rid of Serration/Hornet Strike/ect, I don't think it's as simple as just removing them and adding base damage scaling by rank to the weapon.

 

The problem with that approach is that acquiring and leveling mods are the only form of cross-weapon progression the game currently has.  We're encouraged to switch weapons frequently to improve our mastery, to the point where man weapons are just used as throwaways. Acquiring and leveling the mods required for good endgame builds is a big piece of the game's overall progression system (and the damage mods, being so hard/expensive to level, are a big piece of that). 

 

On the flip side, is it good for the game if every weapon reaches near maximum potential just by ranking to 30 once?  You can run a handful of survival missions and get something to rank 40... does that level or effort warrant a 220% damage increase?  I think players should have to put in a little more effort for such a large boost.

 

Where I do agree with you is that the necessity and high mod cost of these damage mods really restricts player freedom and build variety.  They are absolutely required in every single build, and if fully ranked, take up almost half of the capacity of an un-patatoed weapon. 

 

I have two thoughts on things that might work better:

 

1. Have an aura type slots for weapons that accepts *only* the base-damage mod for that weapon type (Serration, Hornet Strike, ect).  Putting a damage mod in that slot does not cost nor grant any points.  This keeps the mods mechanically intact, but removes them from the build and point equation. 

2. Remove them from the game, and introduce a "weapon mastery" system similar to the current mastery rank system. For instance, you'd have a "pistol mastery" rank that you increase by leveling pistols.  As your pistol mastery rank increases, you get a tiered damage boost that applies to any pistol you use (regardless of its rank), eventually becoming equivalent to having a maxed Serration, ect.    

[Axterix13]

Where I do agree with you is that the necessity and high mod cost of these damage mods really restricts player freedom and build variety.  They are absolutely required in every single build, and if fully ranked, take up almost half of the capacity of an un-patatoed weapon. 

  

They are hardly exclusive on that front though.  Even elemental mods at 11 max suck down space.  That is due to the design though.  You have catalysts and formas, with which one can effectively turn 30 into 120.  In that situation, with only eight mod slots, mods have to be costly.  Furthermore, the worst efficiency on a mod is at rank 0.  If you look at Serration, for example, you start at 4 for 15%.  That's a point for each 3.75%.  At rank 6, you're looking at 105% for 10 points, for 10.5% per mod point.  You've almost tripled the return.

 

They'd need to revamp the system big time to address those issues.  The type of things they could do that would let them reduce the costs:

1.  Reduce catalysts to a 50% increase, rather than double.

2.  Add diminishing returns to the ranking of mods, so that the first two ranks of Serration might get you 15% each, but the last two are only good for 5% each.  Basically, a mod should be most efficient on the low end, not the high.

3.  Add a way to add extra slots (and possibly start a weapon out with six instead of eight).

4.  Start many mods with a lower base cost.  Right now, rifle elemental mods mostly start at 6.  That makes them very inefficient to start with, and yes, I'll go with Serration or the cold elemental mod, both of which start at 4.  But imagine a world where those elemental mods started at 2, with 8 ranks and 10% per rank, and a suitably adjusted Serration as well.  That would drastically increase the rank 0 efficiency, and combined with the multiplicative damage factor, make mixing and maxing damage mods much more efficient rather than going with as many maxed ones as possible.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Axterix13

[Verryn]

Gather those Serrations cause this threads gonna happen! Yeah, free cred/cores/plats for everyone!

[Gigaus]

Only after someone compensates my time, money and effort I spent to forma weapons I liked and to level up Serration/other damage mods.

 

First, this.

 

And second, This is not a good idea. While I hate the notion of Serration , I also recognize taking it away and giving DE reasonable cause to nerf more weapons, and OP others is a bad idea. Serration is a universal Rifle Mod-- And I assume you extend this idea to Hornet Strike, Point Blank, and Point Strike as well-- meaning it will always change the damage between guns the same percentile amount. If we change it to a level system now, we'll end up seeing a case where more weapons become utterly useless, as they get so little per level compared to the system now, and others get such a boost that we're back to the situation where 'why would you ever use a gun other than X?'

 

Consider this; I have the Ignus, a great weapon for mowing down Infested. as it stands now, I can double and a half the damage on it with just serration, and this in turn effects elemental mods...Same thing with something like...The Bolter, Tetra, Kraken-- Low damage, medium fire guns. Their collective numbers get boosted, not just the primary one, and that adds up when you consider Elemental damage, which has become the 'real' damage types in the game now. Now if we change over to level based, who's to say these low and medium 'tiers' won't get shafted, while the 'top' tier ones-- Like the Soma-- will get buffed into insanity. DE has already made it clear, they do not want weapons to be balanced nor equal-- They want a Tiered system where there's only one right choice. Who's to say that it won't be a case of the lower weapons get less than a 50% boost at max level, while guns at the top level get more than the 300% boost that we see with the extreme maximized damage builds we have now?

 

Sorry, it would have been a nice notion if this was done early on, before DE showed they cant' balance guns worth a damn. As it stands, I'm gonna need to give this idea a miss.

[lautalocos]

First, this.

 

And second, This is not a good idea. While I hate the notion of Serration , I also recognize taking it away and giving DE reasonable cause to nerf more weapons, and OP others is a bad idea. Serration is a universal Rifle Mod-- And I assume you extend this idea to Hornet Strike, Point Blank, and Point Strike as well-- meaning it will always change the damage between guns the same percentile amount. If we change it to a level system now, we'll end up seeing a case where more weapons become utterly useless, as they get so little per level compared to the system now, and others get such a boost that we're back to the situation where 'why would you ever use a gun other than X?'

 

Consider this; I have the Ignus, a great weapon for mowing down Infested. as it stands now, I can double and a half the damage on it with just serration, and this in turn effects elemental mods...Same thing with something like...The Bolter, Tetra, Kraken-- Low damage, medium fire guns. Their collective numbers get boosted, not just the primary one, and that adds up when you consider Elemental damage, which has become the 'real' damage types in the game now. Now if we change over to level based, who's to say these low and medium 'tiers' won't get shafted, while the 'top' tier ones-- Like the Soma-- will get buffed into insanity. DE has already made it clear, they do not want weapons to be balanced nor equal-- They want a Tiered system where there's only one right choice. Who's to say that it won't be a case of the lower weapons get less than a 50% boost at max level, while guns at the top level get more than the 300% boost that we see with the extreme maximized damage builds we have now?

 

Sorry, it would have been a nice notion if this was done early on, before DE showed they cant' balance guns worth a damn. As it stands, I'm gonna need to give this idea a miss.

well, the idea would be that every gun gets  the same % on each level. it would be the same as serration, but without making players depend on RNG.

[LordofTibera]

Been saying this since the Mod2.0 change in U7. I hope this happens someday.

[Axterix13]

well, the idea would be that every gun gets  the same % on each level. it would be the same as serration, but without making players depend on RNG.

Serration is hardly an RNG issue.  There's almost always an Infestion active.  That's two different mobs right there that drop it.  It also makes for some of the easier survivals, and Serration is on the loot table there for tiers 1, 2, and 3.  Lastly, those invasions are often in tier 2 zones, which means tier 2 defense... which also can reward Serration.  Now, sure, I can see people having a problem getting them if they leave the Survivals at the five minute mark and jump out of the Defenses after wave 5... but hey, maybe they should stick around a little longer?

 

Me, I've got six of things, and that's after using a bunch for fusion reasons.  Plenty of Hornet Strikes as well.  And shotgun ones, well... that's the most common of the three.  Overall, it is far more of a pain to get a stormbringer, the poison pistol mod, the shotgun poison mod, or the pistol ice mod.  And it being that common, well, if someone were to offer to trade an R5 core for one, I'm sure someone would bite on that.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Axterix13

[lautalocos]

Serration is hardly an RNG issue.  There's almost always an Infestion active.  That's two different mobs right there that drop it.  It also makes for some of the easier survivals, and Serration is on the loot table there for tiers 1, 2, and 3.  Lastly, those invasions are often in tier 2 zones, which means tier 2 defense... which also can reward Serration.  Now, sure, I can see people having a problem getting them if they leave the Survivals at the five minute mark and jump out of the Defenses after wave 5... but hey, maybe they should stick around a little longer?

 

Me, I've got six of things, and that's after using a bunch for fusion reasons.  Plenty of Hornet Strikes as well.  And shotgun ones, well... that's the most common of the three.  Overall, it is far more of a pain to get a stormbringer, the poison pistol mod, the shotgun poison mod, or the pistol ice mod.  And it being that common, well, if someone were to offer to trade an R5 core for one, I'm sure someone would bite on that.

but what about the new player?

if you are on earth, you need that serration.

seriously, try using a gun in earth with no damage mods. thats how new players feel

[Zardust]

The biggest problem with Serration (and the equivalent mods for shotgun, pistol, whatever) is that they're basically essential, but getting one isn't guaranteed since it's a mod drop.

 

I think a good compromise would be to give all weapons an additional slot that comes pre-installed with a Serration/Hornet Strike/whatever, and that's the only mod that could go in that extra slot, but if you have a max rank Serration or whatever then you can put it there if you want.  It would fix the "one slot is always gonna be wasted on Serration" problem as well as the "not everybody has Serration" problem, without actually getting rid of Serration and making everyone mad.  A little bit like an Aura slot for weapons but functionally different.

Edited February 11, 2014 by BLOODGAZMS

[Axterix13]

but what about the new player?

if you are on earth, you need that serration.

seriously, try using a gun in earth with no damage mods. thats how new players feel

Well, first off, that has nothing to do with the RNG, because it isn't the RNG that would deny the player the mod at that point, but rather a straight up design decision.  The post I replied to whined about the RNG making it hard to get a Serration, which is not true.  That said...

 

There's plenty of threads about the difficulty of the Frontier mobs on Earth.  That is not a Serration issue.  With the Grineer that were there before, well, I wasn't a newbie that long ago.  Fought my way past 'em with a Braton (the 6/6/6 one, not the Mk-1) and no Serration.  Wasn't a big deal.  Pretty sure I had the fire rifle mod at that point, so I had something.  The Corpus on the previous planet were actually a bigger issue, due to how poorly conceived the Mk-1 is as a starting weapon.  The Mk-1 is also an issue DE needs to address someday.

 

On top of the Mk-1 being crap, there is a general lack of primary and secondary weapon mods in the early levels.  I'll give you that.  That lack is an issue, one whose solution could include Serration, but not a Serration specific one.  It could just as easily be resolved by something that includes Cryo Rounds (also starts at 4, 15% per rank, and handy against Corpus, offsetting the crap that is the Mk-1).  Or by adding Stormbringer to another low level mob besides Ballistas.  It could use something that is more common, to increase the frequency of it dropping.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Axterix13