FrissonSeeker Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) Forumites have been arguing over what constitutes content and a good patch for months on end now. My opinion can be summed up by my friend and 1k+ hour Warframe player: "The amount of content per week is pitiful. The work put into these could be redirected towards actually balancing or visually improving older weapons, and more importantly, could be put towards completing any actual lore content, like what we're hoping Vor's prize will be.In fact, these Tenno Reinforcements are more of a hindrance now that I think about it. If they weren't made to make more and more guns or frames, the creative teams could easily focus down more dynamic or set missions to create a more immersive experience, rather than what many people now look at as a literal grindfest.The real content we want is instead withheld for these large updates they put so much hype behind, but then immediately sell the rewards for real money. More money than what the game is actually worth.For one weapon in Warframe, these Tenno Reinforcements, you can buy a cheap game that'll take more time than what that weapon will provide. To buy a whole Update Bundle to get all the new content immediately, you are basically spending the amount of a full game, one that would take many, many more hours to beat than the weapons and frame would provide." This is a fairly common opinion on the forums and the usual responses tend to follow these few lines of logic: "Digital Extremes has only so many employees" or "Different employees do different things" or"DE can only do so much"I completely agree with these points. However, I am going to invite the comparison of Digital Extremes versus other comparable studios.Digital Extremes has roughly 200 employees. As evidenced by their website:"With over 200 of the industry’s most talented artists, designers and programmers, Digital Extremes works hard to make its employees the best they can be by providing a positive, purpose-filled work atmosphere that, in turn, drives creativity, innovation, and passion into our games."http://www.digitalextremes.com/about As much as 38 million dollars has gone towards the engine that powers Warframe(and Star Trek)."Digital Extremes is investing nearly $36 million in the project, including a $2.5-million grant from the province." http://news.ontario.ca/medt/en/2011/04/digital-extremes-plays-to-win-in-ontario.html Going as back as far as 2011, Digital Extremes had over 120 employees "Ontario is turning the corner and helping a London-based video game studio create 30 new jobs and protect 53 existing jobs, with more than 120 people currently working at the studio." http://news.ontario.ca/medt/en/2011/04/digital-extremes-plays-to-win-in-ontario.html Now, development of Warframe began in March of 2012."Development on Warframe started in earnest in March 2012, and a closed beta launched in October."http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/closing-digital-extreme-s-psychic-wound/1100-4555/ Steve Sinclair offhandedly mentioned that development started with roughly 50 people on Warframe while the rest of the studio was working on Star Trek which released April 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_%282013_video_game%29 This means between that for roughly 1 full year 120+ employees have been working on this game up too 200+ now. Now that all of this has been established how does this compare to other studios?Fallout 3 was developed by 70 people"Todd Howard stated that while Fallout 3 had around 70 people working on it" http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Development_Team http://www.gamespot.com/articles/fallout-3-360-bound/1100-6236061/ Development for Fallout 3 started in late 2004 with just 10 devs and only started to ramp up after the release of Oblivion in March 2006. Fallout 3 would come out in October 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_3#Developmenthttp://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_3_developersSkyrim was only developed by 100 people. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Development_Team Work on Skyrim began in 2008."Full development begun following the release of Fallout 3 in 2008" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim#cite_ref-podcast_6_25-0 Skyrim was made by 100 people in 3 years. The Witcher 2 was developed on a 10.3 million dollar budget and made by roughly 70 employees in 4 years. http://www.dsogaming.com/news/the-witcher-2-cost-1036-million-the-witcher-3-and-cyberpunk-2077-will-cost-282-million-in-h1-2013/ http://www.linkedin.com/company/cd-projekt-red http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Witcher_II_Interview/ The Witcher 2 was developed on a shoestring budget with under 100 employees. Note: They also made their own engine with that money. 1/10th the money DE had for their own engine which is based off of UE3. Metro Last Light was developed by... just read this story. http://www.polygon.com/2013/5/15/4333828/4a-games-overcame-poor-conditions-hurdles-in-obtaining-hardware or this one http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-05-15-jason-rubin-metro-last-light-is-the-triumph-of-an-underdog These games are all heavily lauded in many areas such as: content, graphics, immersion, gameplay, and AI.Compared to the other developers, why does Digital Extremes not reach those same heights? EDIT: To further add, let us look at the development of Path of Exile a F2P action rpg that is very comparable to Warframe in terms of scope. EDIT 2: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/183359-digital-extremes-could-deliver-so-much-more/?p=2136581 Noble_Cactus' opinion on the matter regarding PoE. http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/733852 "Grinding Gear Games expanded from 20 people to 55! While our core development team doubled in size (to 35) we also scaled up our customer support department by a factor of ten." "We hit a peak of almost 70,000 people playing Path of Exile at the same time. We expect to beat this record as we localise the game to more countries next year!" Note: Steam's concurrent player record for Warframe is 30k. "Path of Exile won numerous awards" Path of Exile was developed with a smaller team, in less time and with a small a budget. Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexus730 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) If you had played games like I've played, you would be grateful that they put out content at all. You can't really compare DE to other Devs just like that. Edited February 21, 2014 by Nexus730 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIJetfireII Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) I only see that patience is counted in this game thats all and it's not that bad actually, except for RNG that is. Edited February 21, 2014 by IIRodimusprimeII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvang Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 If I had to guess, I'd say focus. None of those games were extended open beta MMOs, and were developed accordingly: design and development under a budget and schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrissonSeeker Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 If you had played games like I've played, you would be grateful that they put out content at all. You can't really compare DE to other Devs just like that. Don't assume what kinds of games I have played. I'm not going to compare DE to the flappy bird dev or Candy Crush Saga devs. Also, I can, and I did compare them. Budget, time, and dev team size are all quantifiable as is commercial success and critic reviews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeere Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 If you had played games like I've played, you would be grateful that they put out content at all. You can't really compare DE to other Devs just like that. Actually, he has every right to do just that. DEs pace is abysmally slow, lets not hide the facts here. I love Warframe to pieces. But when it comes down to it, he's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones7056 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Sir, this post deserves some of highest respect this forums can give. i only wish more people could open there eyes and see this instead of make excuses for DE. the one problem i have noticed with this is the audience you are speaking to. you compared this to real games. skrim and such are finished games. more then not, more players here have manly focused their attention on games like this. MMO beta games. the whole "PC master race" is a common happening when ever i start to get to know other players here. simple games like Mass Effect 3, Dead Space, and such, most people have never played them. OP is you havnt already watch Steam Dev days video on FTP games, if your like me at all keep a tally of how often DE breaks the trend of other FTB on steam, that number will never leave your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones7056 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Don't assume what kinds of games I have played. I'm not going to compare DE to the flappy bird dev or Candy Crush Saga devs. Also, I can, and I did compare them. Budget, time, and dev team size are all quantifiable as is commercial success and critic reviews. i see you dont follow the critic thread that give bad reviews to warframe, mostly because they always get locked for flaming. the answer is always "oh they didn't put enough time into the game to see how good it is" if you really need to be a minimum 100 hours in a game to even start seeing the good in it, its not a good game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrissonSeeker Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 OP is you havnt already watch Steam Dev days video on FTP games, if your like me at all keep a tally of how often DE breaks the trend of other FTB on steam, that number will never leave your mind. I've been meaning to watch that, thanks for reminding me. Also this is coming out soon http://store.steampowered.com/app/245550/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 DE is beautiful <3 Warframe is beautiful <3 Kiwi's are beautiful, and shouldn't be eatten! You should just hold it in your hand, and stare! And fall in love! Warframe is the greatest game, other than the darkness 2 which they are tied with cause I love them both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeere Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Warframe is a beautiful, incredible game. But the pace could improve, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I thought the guys who creates weapons are different from the people who creates lore etc. But if thats the case this comes to mind. What are those Lore guys doing? I thought Vors Prize would come in U12 but nah u12 is just another meh patch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bones7056 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 DE is beautiful <3 Warframe is beautiful <3 Kiwi's are beautiful, and shouldn't be eatten! You should just hold it in your hand, and stare! And fall in love! Warframe is the greatest game, other than the darkness 2 which they are tied with cause I love them both! Warframe is a beautiful, incredible game. But the pace could improve, is this really the amount of thought people put into the game they spend 250+ hours on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiralmenace Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 DE is beautiful <3 Warframe is beautiful <3 Kiwi's are beautiful, and shouldn't be eatten! You should just hold it in your hand, and stare! And fall in love! Warframe is the greatest game, other than the darkness 2 which they are tied with cause I love them both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonz Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Another long-time player who shares the same sentiment as the OP. Have been very unsatisfied with DE as of late, especially after hearing about how they had actively tried to destroy one of the largest and greatest clans in their own game. This, coupled with the constant pumping out of content locked behind massive grind walls and the sudden introduction of what seems to be future "pay to win" content has turned this experience very sour. As it stands to be, melee 2.0 and how it will unfold seems like it will be the breaking point for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeere Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) is this really the amount of thought people put into the game they spend 250+ hours on? Look, I'm not drooling all over DE or Warframe, it isn't the best game I've played by a long shot, a lot of things could improve, and if you want me to go into detail I'm more then happy too, but this isn't the forum to do so. DE needs to step up their game, big time Edited February 21, 2014 by Emeere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dispute Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 These games are all heavily lauded in many areas such as: content, graphics, immersion, gameplay, and AI. Compared to the other developers, why does Digital Extremes not reach those same heights? Because DE is like the Grineer.. throw 120 in a room, give them all a tool they know how to use and they still can't take down the one obstacle between them and domination: a 4 year old button mashing the keyboard. Figuratively related to the inability to LISTEN the players. instead they see and notice us 'chattering' like a bunch of mindless squirrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazools Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Atm i don't even speculate about the future... it as been some rough weeks since U12 besides this thread will end up being shut down like everything else in these forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIJetfireII Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 is this really the amount of thought people put into the game they spend 250+ hours on? My suspicions too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakmonster Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Another long-time player who shares the same sentiment as the OP. Have been very unsatisfied with DE as of late, especially after hearing about how they had actively tried to destroy one of the largest and greatest clans in their own game. This, coupled with the constant pumping out of content locked behind massive grind walls and the sudden introduction of what seems to be future "pay to win" content has turned this experience very sour. As it stands to be, melee 2.0 and how it will unfold seems like it will be the breaking point for this game. I haven't really experienced 'massive grind walls' in this game, Zephyr aside. But I'm not really interested in Zephyr, so I don't know. Also, exactly what 'pay-to-win' content are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KvotheTheArcane1 Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 (edited) All I can say is +1. If 70 people can make one of my all time favorite games (FO3), or something as wonderful and graphically amazing as Metro: Last light in the conditions they did, DE has to step up their game not just a few notches, but a few levels. Edited February 21, 2014 by KvotheTheArcane1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dispute Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Atm i don't even speculate about the future... it as been some rough weeks since U12 besides this thread will end up being shut down like everything else in these forums You SEE that DE? We know you don't like it when we're upset. Address our issues. WORK. There's a lot of money in your pocket, i doubt your 100k a week only goes into developing a grinlok or castanas or the occasional hotfix. Melee 2.0? Took you long enough. Whats next? and after that? We're worried about new content because the game play is stale after 50 hours. And your prices in the market? HAHA it's a GAME not an ebay auction for a life size wall mount replica. Pull your S#&$ together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentCynic Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 You make a very valid point, OP. Your sources are well laid-out and paint an intriguing picture. If you had played games like I've played, you would be grateful that they put out content at all. You can't really compare DE to other Devs just like that. But... but... you just did that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IIJetfireII Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Another long-time player who shares the same sentiment as the OP. Have been very unsatisfied with DE as of late, especially after hearing about how they had actively tried to destroy one of the largest and greatest clans in their own game. This, coupled with the constant pumping out of content locked behind massive grind walls and the sudden introduction of what seems to be future "pay to win" content has turned this experience very sour. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serpitus Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 if you want me to go into detail I'm more then happy too, but this isn't the forum to do so. I would think this would be the forum to do so. How can someone fix a problem if no one tells them it exists, or in this case reiterates it enough until the thought sinks in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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