What Is The Grinlok But An Inferior Marelok?

[Brimir]

The sad truth in Warframe is this:

 

Unless a Primary rifle is a crit weapon, it is useless.

 

When it comes to anything else, Secondary weapons have the better mods.

 

Hornet Strike>Serration.

 

Barrel Diffusion>Split Chamber.

 

The Grinlok has a measly 15% base critical hit chance with a 2.0x critical multiplier. I don't think it can beat the Marelok if you invest in critical hit mods on it, and it aint beating it in any other aspect.

 

So... What is the Grinlok but an inferior Marelok?

[Kickboxing_Banana]

Unless a Primary rifle is a crit weapon, it is useless.

 

Boltor Prime? Boar Prime? Ogris? Penta?

 

Even if secondary and primary mods had the same numbers, Marelok would still be better because of higher base damage and firerate.

Edited March 9, 2014 by GalliumGD

[TheStag]

Nerf Marelock. Please.

[Brimir]

Boltor Prime? Boar Prime? Ogris? Penta?

 

I haven't tried the Boltor Prime yet.

 

However:

 

Boar Prime is a shotgun, and the Ogris/Penta are launchers, not rifles.

[TheStag]

Braton Prime is a solid, non crit rifle.

[CelticMoss]

I haven't tried the Boltor Prime yet.

 

However:

 

Boar Prime is a shotgun, and the Ogris/Penta are launchers, not rifles.

let's just say i can trash level 50 void heavys with 4 mods

[Brimir]

Nerf Marelock. Please.

 

It is not the Marelok's fault.

 

Its the state of Secondary mods - they are just flat-out better than anything else.

[Kickboxing_Banana]

I haven't tried the Boltor Prime yet.

 

However:

 

Boar Prime is a shotgun, and the Ogris/Penta are launchers, not rifles.

 

Oh crap, I should read more carefully :P

[Shanicus]

Range, Accuracy. Grinlock and Marelok actually have a pretty good synergy with one another, with the Grinlock used for long range Headshots while the Marelok fares better at close-range combat due to it's high spread (seriously, it can miss from mid-range).

Yes, Marelock has higher damage than the Grinlock, but outside the stupidly high defense/survival missions, you're really not going to care. And if you do care about those numbers, there's better weapons to use than BOTH of them.

[Kickboxing_Banana]

It is not the Marelok's fault.

 

Its the state of Secondary mods - they are just flat-out better than anything else.

 

Marelok still has higher base damage and firerate.

[PaperAlien]

The sad truth in Warframe is this:

 

Unless a Primary rifle is a crit weapon, it is useless.

 

When it comes to anything else, Secondary weapons have the better mods.

 

Hornet Strike>Serration.

 

Barrel Diffusion>Split Chamber.

 

The Grinlok has a measly 15% base critical hit chance with a 2.0x critical multiplier. I don't think it can beat the Marelok if you invest in critical hit mods on it, and it aint beating it in any other aspect.

 

So... What is the Grinlok but an inferior Marelok?

Completely agree, this issue has been overlooked waaaaay too long. Pistol mods have always been obnoxiously powerful, but each change is making them more and more and more overpowered compared to the rifle counterparts. Around Update 7, pistol mods were stronger than rifle mods in every area except AP and ice, and then they had the sage idea to buff pistol AP to become better than not only rifles, but shotgun AND melee as well. And now in Damage 2.0, Puncture, Impact and Slash mods are three times as powerufl on pistols WHILE COSTING LESS, FOR NO REASON. Coupled with all the overpowered secondaries in the game (Acrid, then Brakk etc), it really seems like DE wants to follow the stupid age-old trend of "pistols that are stronger than primary weapons" that has appeared, and been thoroughly overdone, in many, many other video games. Seriously, it's not cool, anymore, it's not funny anymore.

[Brimir]

Range, Accuracy. Grinlock and Marelok actually have a pretty good synergy with one another, with the Grinlock used for long range Headshots while the Marelok fares better at close-range combat due to it's high spread (seriously, it can miss from mid-range).

Yes, Marelock has higher damage than the Grinlock, but outside the stupidly high defense/survival missions, you're really not going to care. And if you do care about those numbers, there's better weapons to use than BOTH of them.

 

With Multi-shot you can actually snipe just fine with the Marelok - when firing three bullets at a time, you're bound to hit with one of them. You get sort of a shotgoneqsue spread on it.

 

Most of the time, one bullet is all you need, too.

[LazyKnight]

It is not the Marelok's fault.

 

Its the state of Secondary mods - they are just flat-out better than anything else.

There is no point in using Grinlok for one simple reason, and that is the head shot multiplier for critical damage. There is never a reason to use a low critical hit weapon as a precision weapon because of this. Grinlok needs to have a critical chance between 20-25% for it to be worth using for the head shot multiplier.

[Brimir]

There is no point in using Grinlok for one simple reason, and that is the head shot multiplier for critical damage. There is never a reason to use a low critical hit weapon as a precision weapon because of this. Grinlok needs to have a critical chance between 20-25% for it to be worth using for the head shot multiplier.

 

Exactly. As I stated in the opening post: for Rifles, it is either Critical hit or useless.

[Ninjamander]

After reading your post...I admit that the grinlok seem useless and to fix it...a buff....30-35% base crit with a bit more base damage maybe?

Edited March 9, 2014 by Ninjamander

[VKhaun]

Can you explain why you're focused on crit? Is there some extra bonus to crit headshots I'm not aware of?

 

If Marelok puts out 2-3 bullets and one is a headshot, but Grinlock splits a dime with two bullets every shot, I don't really see the problem. This is a classic rifle and sawn-off rifle, just as it's advertised. If numbers need tweaking then numbers need tweaking, but that's a much larger can of worms (power creep) than just comparing two weapons. Within the comparison, they are fine as far as I can tell, and I've leveled both to 30 fighting against Grineer.

 

Inside a Galleon I prefer Marelok because I'm still getting lots of headshots at close range.

 

I'm definitely keeping my Grinlock for shipyards, though.

 

Also, lets not forget that we don't have to pick one weapon to do missions with. You can build your primary and secondary vs different targets and using different elements, or for different ranges for the same targets.

Edited March 9, 2014 by VKhaun

[Brimir]

Can you explain why you're focused on crit? Is there some extra bonus to crit headshots I'm not aware of?

 

Because critical hits is the only aspect of modding where Primaries have a distinct advantage. Unless your weapon focuses on it (read: Soma) you're better off using a Secondary.

[Paradoxbomb]

I guess the original intention was for pistol mods to be stronger since. stereotypically, pistols are inferior to rifles and would need an extra boost to stay useful compared to rifles, which are already strong and therefore wouldn't need quite as hefty mods. However, I think they may have gone a bit too far when they gave pistols the ability to shoot 3 bullets in a single shot with no tradeoffs. Not to mention pistols tend to be on par with rifles even without mods, and now the have the Marelok which is even more powerful than it's rifle counterpart, what the Hek?!

 

I wonder what would happen if they made rifle and pistol mods the same?

[CelticMoss]

Because critical hits is the only aspect of modding where Primaries have a distinct advantage. Unless your weapon focuses on it (read: Soma) you're better off using a Secondary.

soma is in 2nd place in rifles under boltor

[VKhaun]

Because critical hits is the only aspect of modding where Primaries have a distinct advantage. Unless your weapon focuses on it (read: Soma) you're better off using a Secondary.

 

But you're talking about two different weapon slots. They are not mutually exclusive. You always get both slots.

 

You mod them to do different things and use them as a pair. If you're approaching a game with three weapons plus frame powers, and all you're doing is running around with your secondary weapon then frankly you're doing it wrong and it only makes sense now because the game is so easy with maxed out gear.

[LazyKnight]

Can you explain why you're focused on crit? Is there some extra bonus to crit headshots I'm not aware of?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/189922-boltor-prime/page-4

Read page 4 in that topic if you want a brief info on head shots and critical hits. The game is weird on headshots and critical damage, and this is why a dread can gets such massive headshot damage.

 

Critical hits do 4x as much damage on the head as they would hitting the same NPC on the body. The damage modifier is huge and this is why critical chance trumps damage.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Brimir]

But you're talking about two different weapon slots. They are not mutually exclusive. You always get both slots.

 

You mod them to do different things and use them as a pair. If you're approaching a game with three weapons plus frame powers, and all you're doing is running around with your secondary weapon then frankly you're doing it wrong and it only makes sense now because the game is so easy with maxed out gear.

 

How exactly does that excuse that all non-crit focused Primaries are utterly gimp in comparison to Secondaries?

 

It doesn't.

[Seldom]

I dont know about crit buffs but maybe changes in a diff way would help, For the Grinlock increased zoom to put it somewhere between a sniper and a rifle (no reticle) and perfect acc with low recoil. For the Marelock shorten the zoom slightly ( who knows maybe that will finally make use of that zoom mod) high recoil and close to mid range acc and even slower rate of fire?.

 

I think some problems with weapons being too samey shouldnt be solved with a re-jig of numbers in damage and crit and stuff but with other more interesting methods that change the feel and gameplay. Weapons on warframe are too occupied with damage atm imo.

[taiiat]

Boltor Prime? Boar Prime? Ogris? Penta?

 

Even if secondary and primary mods had the same numbers, Marelok would still be better because of higher base damage and firerate.

Boltor Prime is still flavor of the week, can't judge it yet.

 

Boar Prime is a Crit Weapon.

 

 

and Ogris / Penta, in terms of 'Deeps' (which so many people consider important) are outclassed by Stug. 

 

Range, Accuracy. Grinlock and Marelok actually have a pretty good synergy with one another, with the Grinlock used for long range Headshots while the Marelok fares better at close-range combat due to it's high spread (seriously, it can miss from mid-range).

Yes, Marelock has higher damage than the Grinlock, but outside the stupidly high defense/survival missions, you're really not going to care. And if you do care about those numbers, there's better weapons to use than BOTH of them.

no offense, but i think you just said balance doesn't matter because you won't see a difference outside of long Defenses and Survivals.

which, you will, though. your Sidearm will oneshot whatever is in front of you, while your Primary struggles in comparison.

 

 

But you're talking about two different weapon slots. They are not mutually exclusive. You always get both slots.

alright. i'll equip my Sniper Rifle to shoot trash mobs at long range, and then never use it because my Secondary Weapon is simultaneously the best:

- shotgun

- pistol

- assault rifle

- machine gun

- sniper rifle

- marksman rifle

 

the only things Rifles have that is even remotely comparable to Sidearms to compete, is the extra Crit and Status boosts available.

sure, 'but Heavy Caliber'. i hear players saying all the time they can't stand using it on almost any Weapon, because then they can't hit the side of a barn. 

 

i fail to see how it's balanced if your backup Weapon does:

- more damage

- reloads faster

- puts more on-target lead downrange faster

 

now, i don't expect Secondaries to be a 'backup' Weapon. that would be uncool. but they should be about equal to Primaries. that's only fair.

 

 

here's a short story.

my Gremlins always have the same loadout. i never. ever. change it. always Corrosive(double Toxin) and Fire + Pistol Gambit. my Gremlins are my backup Weapon. in what way do you say? when Enemies get too high level for my Primary to handle them, i switch to my Gremlins. regardless of faction, my Gremlins do better than my Primary once it's unable to kill Enemies at it's most efficient manner. yes, even if i'm using the wrong Elementals against a faction, it's still better. 

why? my Sidearm does more Damage than most Rifles do (aside from Sniper Rifles and other Specials) per shot. 

 

 

here's some food for thought - why is Split Chamber still not 100%? Shotguns and Pistols are one hundred twenty percent, with Pistols even having another Mod to make Triplex shot at a high commonality, which instantly makes it better than even an Elemental that gave 150% more Damage of any type. adding another shot per shot tops pretty much anything.

 

as we have it now, Rifles are a gamble as to whether they'll be effective or not. some shots they will be, others, not. 

all other Weapon Classes, are guaranteed to be reliable, with Sidearms taking a gamble as to whether they'll be effective, or freaking crazy.

 

 

i. can. not. agree. with saying this crap is balanced when Sidearms have more Damage(base stats AND Mods), more Multishot, and are only 'lacking' in Crit Stats and in Ammunition Capacity.

you might say Accuracy is lacking - but use something like AkLex, and compare it to Lex. Lex fires exactly where you aimed. great. now use AkLex, and fire in the same way, a well aimed shot. just one. wow, it landed exactly where you aimed, despite having a lower Accuracy Stat. 

Accuracy is usually so insignificant, it isn't funny. higher or lower stats mean nothing to actual performance of Weapons. Throwns having 100 Accuracy means they should fly perfectly straight, right? since the Accuracy is the highest possible in the game? well, they don't. they fall over distance after their initial hop-up. and with Multishot, the projectiles don't follow the exact same trajectory even, they spread out. what gives? the Accuracy stat says 100. 

 

so Accuracy means little to nothing. if you took a well aimed shot with Marelok, i'd bet $5 that all 3 projectiles hit near each other. 

 

edit:

 

 

The damage modifier is huge and this is why critical chance trumps damage.

holy flapjacks, someone that actually understands that. that's the first time (literally) that i've seen anyone saying something good about Crits since U11. because of those super weird numbers on Crits on Weakpoints. 

the Disparity between my Weapon say, dealing 700 Damage on the body and 5500 on a Weakpoint Crit, is huge!

(unfortunately we all know what resident problem childs takes best advantage of this, and it rhymes with Soma and Synapse. oh, wait.)

Edited March 9, 2014 by taiiat

[LazyKnight]

Weapons on warframe are too occupied with damage atm imo.

Grinlok's damage per hit is bad and so is its DPS. There is a cut-off point when a weapon is too weak to be justifiably for the sake of variety. Grinlok is a 6 shot rifle that has less DPS than a Magnus and that is pushing the limit. Its damage per hit is bad because it lacks the critical to maximize the head shot multiplier.

 

It serves no function beyond looks, and I am not insulting people that like Grinlok. It is just the wrong mix of stats combined with too many other alternatives that are not mastery rank 5.

 

 

Boltor Prime is still flavor of the week, can't judge it yet.

It's a bodyshot weapon that does a very good job. Other weapons are better for getting headshots.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight