If You're Gonna Nerf Frost, Might As Well Nerf Rhino (Or, An Epiphany On The State Of Warframe).

[8bit_Ghost]

I said it. You're unintentionally making a meta in this game, DE. Making a meta leads to players not expanding their horizons. A meta leads to character shaming. A meta is League of Legends. We don't want that here.

Just recently you unintentionally(?) gave Rhino Prime a speed boost over normal Rhino. This is an incredibly unfair advantage that will make Rhino the most sought-out frame in the game now. I myself am thinking about getting the new Prime Access (to support you, DE, not just for my first prime), but if Rhino Prime ends up being as OP as everyone says he is...then I'm not sure if I'll be willing to use him.

One of the most ridiculous things I've noticed is when players call this game too easy, but then also complain about Frost being nerfed. I thought you guys wanted challenge? And guess what: you got it. "Useless against enemies over level 30!!"--well guess what the first half of the game IS enemies under level 30. You've already beaten a large portion of the game, good job. Just because you can't breeze through 30+ enemies by Snow Globing them all day, doesn't mean he's useless. He can still freeze enemies, deal corridor damage, and trap enemies in Snow Globe as well (they'll break out eventually yeah but bullets shoot slower inside the sphere).

I'm not here to talk about Frost though. I'm here to talk about Rhino. Right now, you'll see many players recommend and agree that Rhino is the way to go if you want to do good in harder levels. Which means they've found their crutch, and are going to abuse Rhino to say that the game is too easy. Maybe it's time for a nerf.

And it's not just Rhino. It's also Trinity, and Loki, and many other exploited frames. Players aren't using these frames because they LIKE them, per say. They're mostly choosing them because they're good. It's like Pokemon: you just can't do good with some.

I'm not asking for nerfs. No-one is asking for nerfs. What I'm saying is that you need to figure out how to make every frame in the game both a desirable option, as well as a viable one. For god's sake, DE, your forerunning frame is Excalibur and almost no-one except new players really likes to play him! He's one of the most dis-recommended frames you have. That should have given you the message already.

Right now difficulty is determined by mods. Mods are useful, and it can be good to have them, but you're forgetting your warframes. Skill is only good for the early stages of the game. Frost using Snow Globe and then Ice-Waving the inner enemies works great early on. Why can't it keep working good? Skill should be what players refer to for the endgame, not the early game. Give any new player an account with a Rhino, all the mods they need, and a Soma, and they'll breeze through 9 waves of T3 survival. That's not how it should work. You need to make an emphasis on skill. Nerf powers but make them work better in conjunction. Emphasize teamwork, allow for combination of powers. Mag's Bullet Attractor and Excalibur's Radial Javelin are a great example of a teamwork move. Do MORE like that. And in the process, make Excalibur better to use but not overpowered. Make Nekros better for than just looting and bad AI Grineer ghosts. Make Ash have a stronger edge on combat than just feeling like a Loki with shooed-in attack powers; make him stand out on his own. You already have frames that can be used with a conjunction of skill and innate power: Banshee, Oberon, Zephyr, Volt, and Valkyr are great examples. Make this game more than Spam 4 to win (or in Loki's case, 2). Emphasize the Co-op. Make the Warframe choose the player for who they are, just like a real one would.

This post continues. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/192696-there-shouldnt-be-an-i-in-team-and-heres-how-to-not-have-one-or-what-to-be-done-about-the-incompatibility-of-warframes/

Edited March 9, 2014 by 8bit_Ghost

[Mythblaze]

I read nothing in this post. Time for me to drag you into the conclave and take my anger out on you.

 

 

After reading the post. Here is what I have to say.

 

The reason people say Rhino is overpowered is because he is well suited for every situation. All of Rhino's abilities can be used in almost every scenario successfully. I been using Rhino over a year now and the only other frames I even like are Nyx, Loki and Zephyr. Everything about Rhino and his abilities are where they should be. Snow Globe was the most over powered defensive ability in the game even when Iron Skin had unlimited damage absorption. As for Avalanche, the ability needs adjusted still. Still think it should freeze enemies in place for a short duration. Did you forget how overpowered Avalanche was? Did you forget that Rhino Stop was rather useless before and in the end the abilities of Radial Blast and Rhino Stomp where combined? You and I are not a developer. I support DE because I stand by their development decisions in Warframe. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by Mythblaze

[8bit_Ghost]

I read nothing in this post. Time for me to drag you into the conclave and take my anger out on you.

Sad if you didn't read it, it's less about targeting Rhino players than you think. :P

[fatpig84]

Leave my Loki out of this again.

 

He is not even a tier 1 frame like Nyx or Vauban or Trinity.

[luanle21]

anyone else think excal need a bit of a buff for his position to every other frame

[8bit_Ghost]

Leave my Loki out of this again.

 

He is not even a tier 1 frame like Nyx or Vauban or Trinity.

A lot of people would disagree with you, especially in Conclave. Watch as another Loki player smacks you down over and over with your own Loki and you'll understand. Is that skill? Maybe, but the wrong kind of skill.

[Un1337ninj4]

But I love my Excal!

 

That said I agree with everything here. Rhino is wayyy overplayed (Just getting mine to 30 so I can get back to my squishies so I actually have to play the game instead of telling it "Nope, I'm just that much of a boss."), DE seems to acknowledge this in their Devstreams/Livestreams, however it seems the act of nerfing a frame is a tedious process that forces the team to focus on a few aspects at a time. Making sure you get a nerf and not a Karma/Irelia.

 

Perma-Invis Loki is indeed in need of a li'l re-balancing. He IS a Top Tier frame, he will never die, he will always revive, he may not have much presence. However I'll be damned if that isn't a li'l OP.

Edited March 9, 2014 by un1337ninj4

[VoidPunch]

I agree, there was no reason to make Rhino Prime faster. That is stupid, he is a tank and now he is also really fast for one. This makes Frost the only slow frame in the game and his skills do not make up for that when Rhino Prime is a tank as well but a fast one. They need to bring him back down to his original speed.

[(PSN)ToastyFairy01]

What "other exploited frames"? You listed the exploited ones. You aren't saying Nekros is overpowered, are you? That'd be ridiculous.

 

Added note: If you think Shadows of the Dead is only for raising for offense, you're doing it wrong. Summon three Shield Ospreys and then come back to me.

Edited March 9, 2014 by (PS4)ToastyFairy01

[demonaii]

This is very hard decision for DE

[8bit_Ghost]

What "other exploited frames"? You listed the exploited ones. You aren't saying Nekros is overpowered, are you? That'd be ridiculous.

Read and you'll see I think quite the opposite. A good example is Nova: she's the biggest offender of spam 4 to win.

[SpilockT_T]

. For god's sake, DE, your forerunning frame is Excalibur and almost no-one except new players really likes to play him! He's one of the most dis-recommended frames you have. 

 

Excuse me?

 

I love him!! >:(

[(PSN)ToastyFairy01]

Read and you'll see I think quite the opposite. A good example is Nova: she's the biggest offender of spam 4 to win.

Bring that same Nova into a two (or even one) hour survival of Pluto and then come back to me.

Edited March 9, 2014 by (PS4)ToastyFairy01

[AllanIncubi]

Conclave is unbalanced and was put into the game to shut people up who were complaining about pvp same with the trading system so we cannot compare frames in conclaves. I do agree that Rhino Prime is alot better now and we shall be seeing nothing but him but he is not op he is not as useful as other frames in end game content. I am quite fine with how frost is even if his globe doesnt survive very long in 40+ it does an excellent job of shield recovery and helping bleeding out allies. I am quite fine with Primes having a distinct advantage over their non prime version but saying so they need to improve the current Primes they have out there. I just think Rhino Prime should have same speed as non prime version but a little higher on the armor/hp. 

 

I also love excaliber and player him ALOT when going against infested he is still fun and is the overall balanced frame.

Edited March 9, 2014 by AllanIncubi

[DiddlyMcGee]

i have read like 2-3 sentences about rhino. however what i can interpret form this is that what your asking is that DE needs to basically scrap warframe as it is and restart. correct me if im wrong

[bejuizb]

I like Nyx, I use her for metagame much more than Rhino. Also, the problem with Excalibur is that people have not a clue how to mod him. If you do it right, you can keep enemies from ever firing at you. Its not only the fact that frames need balancing. Its a simple matter of learning how to play effectively. People tend to rely too much on their abilities and guns in this game. Mobility and placement are given second precedence. If that issue is resolved amongst players, that should mitigate half the issues that people face.

[Mr.ominous]

A lot of people would disagree with you, especially in Conclave. Watch as another Loki player smacks you down over and over with your own Loki and you'll understand. Is that skill? Maybe, but the wrong kind of skill.

Please tell me we aren't about to start balancing everything based on conclave...

[SolidSp33d]

Leave my Loki out of this again.

 

He is not even a tier 1 frame like Nyx or Vauban or Trinity.

 

Ironic with the "Loki Masterrace" crew running around.

 

OT: I agree. Bloody hell, I agree so freaking much. I couldn't even believe they gave Rhino Prime a buff, and a SPEED buff no less. The only Prime frame they gave a stat boost to, which is already bs, and they give it to Rhino? Why the hell are they letting a tanky warframe do crazy amounts of damage AND be one of the fasted frames in the game? I reeeally don't understand it. Ember the squishy caster who is based on running for her ult is still super slow, meanwhile.

 

They really need to all the frames in line and put the emphasis on player skill, as you said. I think they really need to nerf those "top tier" frames a bit, and buff some of the others that are really far behind.

[ayliax]

*Reads Title*

[X3Evanescence]

Loki Master Race.

Nerf our invisibility? Doesn't matter though, that is when the true master race emerges.

[Aggh]

Bring that same Nova into a two (or even one) hour survival of Pluto and then come back to me.

Come back to me when the game should be balanced around no life contests :|

 

 

 

Please tell me we aren't about to start balancing everything based on conclave...

You deal realize conclave balance is entirely separate from PvE, right?

Edited March 9, 2014 by Aggh

[8bit_Ghost]

Edited title so that some people can take it more seriously. I'll be honest; the original title was just supposed to hook you.

[SolidSp33d]

Conclave is unbalanced and was put into the game to shut people up who were complaining about pvp same with the trading system so we cannot compare frames in conclaves. I do agree that Rhino Prime is alot better now and we shall be seeing nothing but him but he is not op he is not as useful as other frames in end game content. I am quite fine with how frost is even if his globe doesnt survive very long in 40+ it does an excellent job of shield recovery and helping bleeding out allies. I am quite fine with Primes having a distinct advantage over their non prime version but saying so they need to improve the current Primes they have out there. I just think Rhino Prime should have same speed as non prime version but a little higher on the armor/hp. 

 

I also love excaliber and player him ALOT when going against infested he is still fun and is the overall balanced frame.

 

Where the bloody hell do you see conclave in his post?

Also no the trading system was not tossed into the game to shut people up. If you've followed streams at all it's something they were seriously considering but worried about rushing into, which is why they are talking it slow. Also conclaives were a quick fix, but there will actually be a proper tackle to pvp at a far off date.Why am I even talking about this? Why bring it up?

 

But anyway. Rhino not OP? Plsplsplsplspls

He is quite literally the joke of "I am tank/dps/caster/etc." And not being as op doesn't stop making him op. He's just ridiculously easy mode.

*turns around to see a bunch of angry Rhinos*

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Great post, 8bit. I fully agree with you. I'm certain DE will correct him and will consider balancing the other frames as well.

In general, I prefer to play the game based on my tactical awareness and skill, not simply firepower and mindless running about all the time.

I think I'd like to run some missions with you, 8bit. We'd probably jive together pretty well.

Edited March 9, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Master_Marmot_Prime]

For god's sake, DE, your forerunning frame is Excalibur and almost no-one except new players really likes to play him! He's one of the most dis-recommended frames you have. That should have given you the message already.

 

 

Uh I'm nowhere near a new player and I love my excal. I'm sorry if I offend any of the players, but Rhino is for noobs. He is easy to use and is for lazy people. though I have to admit that I use him to level up new weapons :P. Low and mid levels he's go(o)d but high levels he's just sh!t. Iron skin doesn't last long enough, how many times can you spam Rhino Stomp? Excal on the other hand with his Radial Blind can stun and blind almost 30 seconds with the right build. By that time his energy cost for that skill has already replenished. People need to learn to play the game. I rather have 3 other Excals in high level defense/ survival than 3 Rhinos.

 

So nerf Rhino? No, make the game more balanced so people don't pick Rhino 9 out of 10 times. Add new enemy leaders who cast DE-iron skin. Oh wait no, people will cry about that then...