Rhino Is Not A Tank But A Juggernaut

[Zarozian]

So this is what this "rhino prime is fine" garbage is really about.

 

Just because there is a major inbalance in favor of yourself, you think it's fine.

 

-1 for you (and the rhinoe prime is fine crowd)

 

EDIT: i'm done arguing with you, i know that you are not willing to make a compromise, all you care about is your favorite frame. have a nice day

I see your point. But the fact that it is arguable and counter-able with similar statements that could be said about other frames, only proves your point to be wrong.

 

And for the last time. It's IMBALANCE not inbalance.

[Zarozian]

Rhino Prime and Vanguard Helmets are fine as they are, and I will argue with you and you will lose if you have silly stereotypes about what a tank should be like, or assume Rhino to be a counter part of any warframe based on an outdated description that isn't even valid anymore.

[GrosslyIncandescent1709]

Zarozian: Why are you defending Rhino Prime's runspeed that much? Why are you not able to understand that Rhino is classified as a Tank? Why are you not understand that a warframe with so great tools like Rhino should need a drawback?

I really cant understand your opinion - really.

rhino prime still wouldn't be slow with vanguard and 0.9 basespeed. the sad thing is, bringing rhino prime in line with rhino would fix the vanguard+rhino prime problem but would punish the people using the prime helmet or thrak. 

[Monster-T]

Zarozian: So please, could you be so kind to tell me, why Rhino isnt a tank?

MortalSin: Yeah, there is some dilemma... but for the healthyness of the game; they should change Prime's runspeed.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Monster-T

[SoulEchelon]

This kind of thread is not discussion. Just an off-topic thread to bum around. But if you wish,

Rhino Prime's speed... Seriously. How does.. Why, argh.

Disadvantages? There's none.

 

This. DE kind of shat the bed with Rhino. He has no real disadvantages anymore; even without being a Prime. Just throw on his speed enhancing alt helm and bam.

[HolidayPi3]

The fact that the argument is going in circles and the fact that you are able to argue back and forth with me, is proof that everything is balanced since you have started contradicting things in your statements.

 

Don't argue that other frames aren't as fast as Rhino Prime with Vanguard helmet.

 

Don't argue that other frames abilities can't deal damage like Nova's abilities.

 

Don't argue that other frames don't have as much armor as Frost and Rhino.

 

Don't argue that Rhino isn't as tanky as Trinity or Valkyr.

 

Accept everything as it is, Holiday. 

 

Being as fast as Loki isn't game breaking. It's not like we're taking away Loki's speed.

 

This doesn't affect any other warframe other than Rhino. So unless you main or play a Rhino, this doesn't really concern you.

Quite the opposite. The fact that it's being argued is an indicator that it's a point of controversy. Things that are balanced generally don't get brought up with this frequency. Also, point out where I've contradicted myself. I'm under the impression that I've really just been repeating everything over and over because you keep bringing up the same things over and over. (X specialized frame does his one specialized role better than Rhino, so x specialized frame's drawbacks are warranted. But it's okay to take away Rhino's main drawback because specialized frames do specialized roles better than Rhino can even though Rhino can very sufficiently do everything.)

Accepting a problem (power creep) does not eliminate the problem.

[Scheifen]

Zephyr is more of a juggernaut imo...

 

faster, more agile, shield-esque skill, and solid hp and shields... 

[Zarozian]

Zarozian: So please, could you be so kind to tell me, why Rhino isnt a tank?

MortalSin: Yeah, there is some dilemma... but for the healthyness of the game; they should change Prime's runspeed.

He has more utility rather thank tankiness like Valkyr and Trinity.

 

Hes good in all areas stat wise, and his skills provide perfect utility but no damage based skills at all.

 

Hence he shouldn't be tied down to the stereotype of being a slow tank. Warframe is a completely unique game and it will have completely unique frames and content things will not go the way you think it should.

 

You need to ask yourself; Why is this a problem? How does this affect me or anything? Becore you go about calling it a problem that needs to be eliminated.

[taiiat]

Rhino can't

instead, let's talk about what he can do. he does all of them at an above average level. 

 

far above average.

 

if that was mediocre at everything, a jack of all trades is always acceptable. but when that's instead somewhere between queen and king, it's overreaching.

 

Because speed is useless

Loki has speed but he is dependent on his invisibility more so than his speed am I right?

and that's why you think Rhino has drawbacks. you completely misunderstand mobility in Warframe.

and that is incorrect. the Invisibility is useful but you can achieve the same result using Mobility, and it costs no Energy.

 

we could have a frame that was faster than the existing ones... and Rhino would still be the same problem. because then he'd still have no drawbacks and one-up the other frames in all of their roles in the general sense of things, other than that one theoretical frame.

but we balance a game around what we have, not what we might have in a year. because hypotheticals are just that.

 

Energy Pool makes little difference when just about every Rhino is going to equip Fleeting Expertise, because there's no significant drawbacks. Roar still lasts plenty long enough as a medium duration boost against large groups of Heavy Units, the only time you'd need it anyways.

 

 

i don't need to be invisible to not get hit. i can take my pick of any frame, and as long as i can move quickly, i can avoid 99% of incoming Damage.

 

 

we're not arguing with you, we're giving undeniable proof, and you deny it and argue to us the same completely out of context statements that aren't objective balance.

as it's been pointed out in multiple posts, Rhino is far above average at doing everything (especially now). all of those other frames that do something better, specialize in it, and they have drawbacks in most other situations because of it.

 

being a jack of all trades is fine. but being almost as good as the specialized options in every possible situation, is not. specializing means you are far above the rest, because that's what you're specifically good at. and you should absolutely be the best at that thing. but you'll suffer in other factors because of focusing on one thing so much.

[Zarozian]

Zephyr is more of a juggernaut imo...

 

faster, more agile, shield-esque skill, and solid hp and shields... 

That is very true. Which is why Rhino has Iron Skin, that extra layer and faster sprint speed is why Rhino Prime is more suited for Juggernaut than Zephyr. Especially his Rhino Stomp, while Zephyr's Tornado does continuous damage and follows enemies on its own.

[Zarozian]

rhino prime still wouldn't be slow with vanguard and 0.9 basespeed. the sad thing is, bringing rhino prime in line with rhino would fix the vanguard+rhino prime problem but would punish the people using the prime helmet or thrak. 

 

The nerf in its speed isn't necessary. There is always a trade off.  

 

Whether it be appearance or power.

 

Quite the opposite. The fact that it's being argued is an indicator that it's a point of controversy. Things that are balanced generally don't get brought up with this frequency. Also, point out where I've contradicted myself. I'm under the impression that I've really just been repeating everything over and over because you keep bringing up the same things over and over. (X specialized frame does his one specialized role better than Rhino, so x specialized frame's drawbacks are warranted. But it's okay to take away Rhino's main drawback because specialized frames do specialized roles better than Rhino can even though Rhino can very sufficiently do everything.)

Accepting a problem (power creep) does not eliminate the problem.

The fact that I can argue with you is the fact that I can use similar statements that you used with another frame in a sense and it would still hold very true.

 

You could say that Rhino Prime's lack of drawbacks is his "strengths" and by giving him a drawback, you would be taking away his "strengths".

 

Which will result in a larger argument and debate of equal scale.

 

I trust in DE and I believe they know what they are doing as professionals.

[Zarozian]

instead, let's talk about what he can do. he does all of them at an above average level.

far above average.

if that was mediocre at everything, a jack of all trades is always acceptable. but when that's instead somewhere between queen and king, it's overreaching.

and that's why you think Rhino has drawbacks. you completely misunderstand mobility in Warframe.

and that is incorrect. the Invisibility is useful but you can achieve the same result using Mobility, and it costs no Energy.

we could have a frame that was faster than the existing ones... and Rhino would still be the same problem. because then he'd still have no drawbacks and one-up the other frames in all of their roles in the general sense of things, other than that one theoretical frame.

but we balance a game around what we have, not what we might have in a year. because hypotheticals are just that.

Energy Pool makes little difference when just about every Rhino is going to equip Fleeting Expertise, because there's no significant drawbacks. Roar still lasts plenty long enough as a medium duration boost against large groups of Heavy Units, the only time you'd need it anyways.

i don't need to be invisible to not get hit. i can take my pick of any frame, and as long as i can move quickly, i can avoid 99% of incoming Damage.

we're not arguing with you, we're giving undeniable proof, and you deny it and argue to us the same completely out of context statements that aren't objective balance.

as it's been pointed out in multiple posts, Rhino is far above average at doing everything (especially now). all of those other frames that do something better, specialize in it, and they have drawbacks in most other situations because of it.

being a jack of all trades is fine. but being almost as good as the specialized options in every possible situation, is not. specializing means you are far above the rest, because that's what you're specifically good at. and you should absolutely be the best at that thing. but you'll suffer in other factors because of focusing on one thing so much.

But really though. If we talk about all that he can do, people will hardly notice the things that he can't do, and automatically assume hes unbalanced or overpowered like many people are doing now.

Hes far above average in the beginning and mid-game, but hes perfectly fine end-game.

Like I said before. The DE intends to make all warframes as viable or with improved utility end-game.

The fact that Loki is still playable end-game thanks to his utility is proof of that. Same with Vauban despite his lower stats, he has amazing abilities.

So I believe energy pool makes as little difference as speed does.

Therefore the speed on Rhino Prime should not be nerfed, and neither should the Vanguard.

I only hope you see things from my perspective.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[Rakosta_Kai]

Sigh, we're arguing in circles here. Rhino has a good portion of every frame's STRENGTHS. That is to say he has very good damage, CC, durability, and now speed. Most frames are balanced by being good at 1 or 2 of those things at the detriment of another. Rhino is good at ALL of those things. And that's what I've been saying. >snip<

 

Rhino is balanced.

His skill damage and defensive abilities are all hardcapped. His only scaling abilities are his primary damage buff and the 8 second slow from Stomp.

That's it...

The only deviance to that is Stomp Spam (which is relevant to run speed in what way exactly?), which is functionally no different from Bastille Spam, Link /Blessing Spam, M. Prime, etc.

 

Loki, Valkyr,Trinity,Vauban, Nova all scale and do so with more than the bulk of their skills. 

 

For what it's worth... And you can go look this up...

Movement Speed was determined by armor. The frames with the highest armor got the slowest run speeds. Lighter armor got higher run speeds. it was a design choice to argue the added armor.

 

That concept is dead at this point... Rhino's Iron Skin changes and Vanguard Helmet crippled it, Valkyr killed it.

 

Now the only slow frames in the game are slow, "just cuz" That's what needs fixing!

 

Please stop trying to shoe-horn a discussion about speed into a discussion about balance. The two are mutually non-exclusive at this point.

 

If you and others really want to talk balance... That would be a meaningful conversation.

If the argument is going to continue to be speed as it relates to balance in PVE Co-op play I have only one question.

 

What real leverage does moderate/high movement speed afford a player in missions?

By this I mean:

How does it help them do extra damage?

How does it help them avoid extra damage?

Does it have an effect on other players?  If so, what effect does it have?

What effect does it have other than allowing a player to traverse a mission area faster?

 

I asked another question in this thread and it got largely ignored to be followed by some players uttering and then screaming something about balance which makes no objective sense (no disrespect intended).

Run speed affords you no extra defense nor offense.

 

Personally, for my part, I couldn't care less if they nerf Vanguard. It's a fairly ugly helmet (The chrome-ish bits). But let's not make the argument about balance.  Because balance concerns don't actually apply.

[Otaiken]

I certainly hope that DE gives Loki prime 150 base shields. If we're gonna have power creep, might as well go all the way. Wouldn't even make Loki that OP, he still doesn't have any damage skills. 

[Monster-T]

He has more utility rather thank tankiness like Valkyr and Trinity.

 

Hes good in all areas stat wise, and his skills provide perfect utility but no damage based skills at all.

 

Hence he shouldn't be tied down to the stereotype of being a slow tank. Warframe is a completely unique game and it will have completely unique frames and content things will not go the way you think it should.

 

You need to ask yourself; Why is this a problem? How does this affect me or anything? Becore you go about calling it a problem that needs to be eliminated.

Okay your answer is: Hes not a tank because Valkyr and Trinity are better tanks? As far as I know both of them cant pull aggro, right? Rhino can. So long (not arguing about that Trinity's skill will be nerfed in the future - because its stupid op).

"You need to ask yourself; Why is this a problem? How does this affect me or anything?     

Because a bad balanced game will not have a long life.                  

[AfroGamerNinja]

 

[Zarozian]

Okay your answer is: Hes not a tank because Valkyr and Trinity are better tanks? As far as I know both of them cant pull aggro, right? Rhino can. So long (not arguing about that Trinity's skill will be nerfed in the future - because its stupid op).

"You need to ask yourself; Why is this a problem? How does this affect me or anything?     

Because a bad balanced game will not have a long life.                  

It's necessary to make Rhino viable end-game.

 

Think about it, Rhino is one of the early frames that you get in the beginning, no one would want to use him anymore if he wasn't good enough against levels 80-140.

 

They gave him speed so that shots that take out his Iron Skin within a few shots, so that he can avoid them and get enough energy to put them back up again and get back on the offensive.

 

Despite not being able to pull aggro Trinity can still do this:

Trinity can stay invincible and with link, she only needs to shoot herself and all enemies with a tentacle linked to them would die, or if they attacked her the damage would go to them, while blessing makes her invincible.

 

And Valkyr has the same ability that Rhino's Iron Skin gave back then, giving total immunity, only it can last for 2 minutes and longer.

 

Both of these make them viable in end-game.

 

Same thing with Rhino. Despite not being tank, that can tank damage head on, he has speed and greater suitability, without the need of invincibility.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[HolidayPi3]

The nerf in its speed isn't necessary. There is always a trade off.  

 

Whether it be appearance or power.

 

The fact that I can argue with you is the fact that I can use similar statements that you used with another frame in a sense and it would still hold very true.

 

You could say that Rhino Prime's lack of drawbacks is his "strengths" and by giving him a drawback, you would be taking away his "strengths".

 

Which will result in a larger argument and debate of equal scale.

 

I trust in DE and I believe they know what they are doing as professionals.

If Rhino's lack of drawbacks IE perfection is a strength, and that he shouldn't be given a drawback because his strength is not having a drawback IE he's perfect... Where's the balance?

Your "similar statements" still have holes in them. I've even pointed out that the frames you've listed as counterpoints have drawbacks that do indeed limit them. Rhino isn't, and that is a HUGE balance issue. 

The fact that you have to use frames like Nova and Trinity as a point of reference in regard to Rhino when they themselves are points of controversy is a testament to the fact that this state of balance is NOT okay.

Edited March 12, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Zarozian]

"You need to ask yourself; Why is this a problem? How does this affect me or anything?     

Because a bad balanced game will not have a long life.                  

Also for this part specifically. You don't directly answer the question on how Rhino Prime having more speed effects game balance and result in game not having a long life.

[Otaiken]

Rhino is balanced.

His skill damage and defensive abilities are all hardcapped. His only scaling abilities are his primary damage buff and the 8 second slow from Stomp.

That's it...

The only deviance to that is Stomp Spam (which is relevant to run speed in what way exactly?), which is functionally no different from Bastille Spam, Link /Blessing Spam, M. Prime, etc.

 

Loki, Valkyr,Trinity,Vauban, Nova all scale and do so with more than the bulk of their skills. 

 

For what it's worth... And you can go look this up...

Movement Speed was determined by armor. The frames with the highest armor got the slowest run speeds. Lighter armor got higher run speeds. it was a design choice to argue the added armor.

 

That concept is dead at this point... Rhino's Iron Skin changes and Vanguard Helmet crippled it, Valkyr killed it.

 

Now the only slow frames in the game are slow, "just cuz" That's what needs fixing!

 

Please stop trying to shoe-horn a discussion about speed into a discussion about balance. The two are mutually non-exclusive at this point.

 

If you and others really want to talk balance... That would be a meaningful conversation.

If the argument is going to continue to be speed as it relates to balance in PVE Co-op play I have only one question.

 

What real leverage does moderate/high movement speed afford a player in missions?

By this I mean:

How does it help them do extra damage?

How does it help them avoid extra damage?

Does it have an effect on other players?  If so, what effect does it have?

What effect does it have other than allowing a player to traverse a mission area faster?

 

I asked another question in this thread and it got largely ignored to be followed by some players uttering and then screaming something about balance which makes no objective sense (no disrespect intended).

Run speed affords you no extra defense nor offense.

 

Personally, for my part, I couldn't care less if they nerf Vanguard. It's a fairly ugly helmet (The chrome-ish bits). But let's not make the argument about balance.  Because balance concerns don't actually apply.

 

Excuse me? Speed doesn't affect defence or offence? I must be playing completely different game then. Speed makes absolutely HUGE difference. Especially against Grineer and their hitscan weapons. You can run from cover to cover much faster hence taking less fire, it's very important for melee too as you take less fire and can move from target to target quicker.. there is your offence aspect. There's such a thing as gap closing when it comes to melee weapons.. and it's pretty important.

 

Take Frost which is pretty tanky but very sluggish. Every Grineer in the room and their cat will unload two clips into you before you cross some of the bigger rooms... not much of a point in having more shields if you are gonna take more hits. There lies the problem with Rhino... he's tanky AND very fast. So he's gonna eat considerably less fire than Frost for example.

 

I don't know what's your playstyle like, but speed is more important to me than energy on most frames and there's a considerable increase in survivability whenever I switch from slow frame to fast frame.. even without abilities factoring in (I often forget to use abilities for the entire mission lol). Speed not being balancing factor is ridiculous notion to me. Now whether it should be one is another thing.. but that's whole other discussion.

[Tyranness]

Fun fact: All frames are actually ninjas.

 

I honestly don't use Rhino or his Prime for anything beyond heavy speedfarming. Being faster only really helps with speed running. I get the point Loki is currently the fastest. But. . .even with Vanguard, they're only equal. Loki Prime may get the same boost.

 

Iunno, if he had a natural 10% more power I'd see something but. . .he can keep up now so he's overpowered? Zorencoptering is still faster.

 

All I can really see from trying not to skim this is Rhino mains vs Loki mains arguing. I never saw this argument with Volt's Speed buff was himself only making him the outright fastest.

[Zarozian]

If Rhino's lack of drawbacks IE perfection is a strength, and that he shouldn't be given a drawback because his strength is not having a drawback IE he's perfect... Where's the balance?

Your similar statements still have holes in them. I've even pointed out that the frames you've listed as counterpoints have drawbacks that do indeed limit them. Rhino isn't, and that is a HUGE balance issue. 

The fact that you have to use frames like Nova and Trinity as a point of balancing when they themselves are points of controversy us a testament to the fact that this state of balance is NOT okay.

What difference would having a drawback make?

 

You are simply disliking the fact that Rhino is as fast as Loki are you not?

 

If you truly consider adding 0.1 speed to Rhino removing his drawback, then you don't know what Rhino's drawback is, and you are simply arguing about because you simply wish to make people who play Rhino or has Rhino Prime very unhappy.

 

But having more speed makes no difference at all, it's having less speed that does make a difference.

[Otaiken]

What difference would having a drawback make?

 

You are simply disliking the fact that Rhino is as fast as Loki are you not?

 

If you truly consider adding 0.1 speed to Rhino removing his drawback, then you don't know what Rhino's drawback is, and you are simply arguing about because you simply wish to make people who play Rhino or has Rhino Prime very unhappy.

 

But having more speed makes no difference at all, it's having less speed that does make a difference.

 

It's the helmet that is the problem... the best alt helmet in the game. The helmet that is so ridiculously good it was part of the reason why DE removed helmet stats in the first place. The helmet that offsets one of the biggest drawbacks of this frame. DE left the stats on the old helmets pretty much solely because of the S#&$storm Rhino players would cause if they did take their precious bacon helmet stats away.

 

It's as if Loki had a helmet that boosted his shields by 30% while lowering his speed by 5%. And to add insult to injury Loki Prime came out with buffed base shields. Removing his biggest weakness altogether. Though in this case Loki would still do 0 damage and would have bad health and armor values.

 

I remember the livestream where they announced the removal of the stats from future helmets. They said that they would keep the stats on the old ones though. At that point most people.. if not everybody thought "Vanguard"... I knew that this helmet would be haunting DE for a long time to come and I was right... but they were too cowardly and this is the result. Should've removed ALL stats from ALL helmets and put this whole imbalance in the system behind us for good.

 

If the helmet didn't exist all would be fine. Give Rhino Prime 1.1 speed for all I care.. it would actually make the prime variant somewhat worth it and you wouldn't feel forced to equip anything. Want more speed? Use mods. It's the stacking that's the problem...

Edited March 12, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Pure]

Rhino will discard his title as a tank due to too many stereotypes about tanks being slow and due to how Trinity and Valkyr can tank better than them, so we will now be known as the Juggernaut Warframe.

 

We are not tanks. 

 

WE ARE JUGGERNAUTS!

 

Why does iron skin draw aggro then? Learn to tank.

[Zarozian]

It's the helmet that is the problem... the best alt helmet in the game. The helmet that is so ridiculously good it was part of the reason why DE removed helmet stats in the first place. The helmet that offsets one of the biggest drawbacks of this frame. DE left the stats on the old helmets pretty much solely because of the S#&$storm Rhino players would cause if they did take their precious bacon helmet stats away.

 

It's as if Loki had a helmet that boosted his shields by 30% while lowering his speed by 5%. And to add insult to injury Loki Prime came out with buffed base shields. Removing his biggest weakness altogether. Though in this case Loki would still do 0 damage and would have bad health and armor values.

I agree.

 

Which is another reason why they shouldn't touch anything.

 

If you think the Loki Master Race crew is bad or the current heat that's in these forums right now.

 

Wait till you piss off the whole horde.

 

Besides a little extra speed on the Rhino Prime was to appease the Rhino users, if you take their helmet or that 0.1 speed away from Rhino Prime.

 

You can expect a Titan-Burning-S#&amp;&#036;Storm of Rhino fanatics, players, and fans, as well as the egotic guys, the cocky arrogant guys, the logistics, the cognistics, the soloers, the hardcore players, the saviors, and 40% of the Warframe population.

 

Not only is arguing to keep Rhino Prime's speed and Vanguard helmet easy, there is hardly a good reason to take it away.

 

And it it does get taken away. 

 

Expect Something To Happen.