Nerf Ammo Capacity

[notionphil]

Reward people for playing 'weak' weapons. Buff that ammo, by all means. But there's no real justification for nerfing strong weapons, at least not with the severity you suggest.

 

But buffing ammo is useless at current; all weapons have more than enough ammo.

 

Ammo would have to matter for an ammo buff to count. Which requires less drop rates, and less ammo cap.

[Varzy]

Well you can give weak weapons infinite ammo but if I'm never in danger of running out of ammo with my Strong Weapons then is the ammo I gave to the weak weapon any balancing factor? 

 

 

 

But buffing ammo is useless at current; all weapons have more than enough ammo.

 

Ammo would have to matter for an ammo buff to count. Which requires less drop rates, and less ammo cap.

I edited my comment, my reply is basically there. I don't think seriously nerfing things and telling us to compensate with mods counts for skilled use of weapons.

[Boondorl]

But cutting a strong but hard to get weapon like Boltor Prime's ammo to 180 and telling us to bandaid it with mods is not encouraging skilled use, it's punishing people for using the weapon.

 

>hard to get weapon like Boltor Prime

>Trading chat

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Boondorl

[HansJurgen]

Ammo becomes a serious issue regardless of weapon, mastery rank or mission level when you play solo.

 

If anything, ammo reserves could be nerfed when playing coop. Nerfing ammo is crippling when playing solo.

 

Do you have any statistical data to support this claim?

 

Powerful weapons like the Soma, clantech like the Penta, Phage and Stug, and direct upgrade Primes like the Boltor and Latron dominate the entire landscape of Warframe

 

I am calling you out on it.

[notionphil]

Er, hate to break it to you, but it wouldn't make "choice a thing". It would mean people would bring the most efficient weapon they own every time, then. So it might change what weapons people rely on, but it wouldn't change the "I'm picking one and sticking with it."

 

That, and team ammo restores are kinda cheap, so this would end up being somewhat irrelevant.

 

The one interesting thought on this, though, is that melee weapons, by default, become the most desirable, as they don't consume ammo at all.

 

I'm not sure how it would affect their damage, if at all, but they're always going to be the most efficient with ammo capacity being irrelevant.

 

+

 

I still don't get where you're trying to go with this...

 

You think nerfing ammo count will make people use high damage weapons less?  Really?  I mean really?

 

Because a regular braton can totally dominate Lvl 30+ guys, you just need to try it out?  /s.  Really?

 

All this will do is inconvenience players.  I would be VERY surprised if actual use dropped.  And Llyssa ninja'd me.  Tenno skoom.

 

thanks for the feedback guys.

 

Of course it won't make you bring a Bratton to Outer Terminus. That's not my goal.

 

This change will make some people mod high damage weapons for ammo, on endless content. Other will still mod for pure damage. With Team restore filling your cap in one use, it will be viable either way.

 

And on lowbie content, some people will use lowbie weapons even if they have access to stronger weapons simply bc of the flexibility and dependability.

 

And of course, people may still use their damage modded Boltor Prime but offset it with a lpwer damage secondary modded for ammo. That is also a choice, and a change that would occur.

Edited March 13, 2014 by notionphil

[Leorion]

Powerful weapons like the Soma, clantech like the Penta, Phage and Stug, and direct upgrade Primes like the Boltor and Latron dominate the entire landscape of Warframe by simply being better at killing than their competition.

 

The solution is not making all weapons equally good at killing. The obvious answer has been staring at us forever. Make weaker weapons 'easier' to use, and strong weapons harder. But how?

 

Nerf Ammo Capacity on Powerful Weapons

 

Ammo capacity needs a major reduction on many high DPS or TTK weapons. And a boost on weaker ones.

EX: Boltor Prime, max ammo 180. Boltor, max ammo 700.

 

This change would allow ammo to be a mitigating balance factor, making those more powerful weapons require more skill or maintenance to use. A user could rely on accuracy, and not waste shots. Or, a user who wants more ease of use could equip ammo mods (which would now need a buff) which mitigates DPS as well.

 

An amended version of my quote from another thread:

 

 

Ammo Needs an Overhaul

 

First, lets all acknowledge: ammo cap mods are nearly useless because current ammo pools and drop rates are too generous. If you're running out of ammo, you're doing something wrong.

 

High level content should drop LESS ammo than currently, low level the same.

 

If ammo pools were significantly reduced, we'd need to greatly increase max ammo cap mods, up to +200% at rank 6. This makes an ammo pool mod a viable option, compared to a mutator mod, or both in the cases of very low ammo cap weapons or high level missions.

 

*Note that no weapon would be reduced more than 200% of current, so a single ammo mod would bring it back to standard cap, or above.

 

Team Ammo restore also needs to restore a 20% of ammo cap per tick - thus it also scales with the cap of your weapon and how you've chosen to offset it.

 

Why Nerf Ammo Cap? Because it Makes Choice A Thing

 

Right now, there is literally no reason to not bring your highest DPS weapon into every situation. It's always the best choice.

 

With my proposed changes, weapon choice is meaningful. Weaker weapons now have a role; they are more flexible and dependable. Your Braton with the 1520 ammo cap is all-of-a-sudden is viable compared to Soma with the 360 cap. It depends on how you'd like to play that mission.

 

Actually, the solution is exactly making every weapon good at killing. What else is the purpose of a weapon if it's not to kill? Weapons have little to no utility and the only reason we use them is to kill enemies. Damage 2.0 added a bit more variety in terms of what you can use but it's still the same thing; All weapons should be good at killing.

 

/sigh The "powerful" weapons are already hard to get. They are either clan tech or require a rank 6 (like the Soma). The difficulty to get them has already been evened out and nerfing ammo would just make them all reach a new low of useless.

 

Next sigh...

HIGH LEVEL DROPS TOO MUCH AMMO?! What missions are you freaking doing?! You need so much ammo to fight higher level enemies and there is almost NEVER enough ammo. This is a ludicrous suggestion. 

 

There are various ways to improve weapons that don't include nerfing the good one's. For one, BUFF THE DAMN WEAK WEAPONS. The Braton will never be a viable choice, it's that bad.

[notionphil]

Ammo becomes a serious issue regardless of weapon, mastery rank or mission level when you play solo.

 

If anything, ammo reserves could be nerfed when playing coop. Nerfing ammo is crippling when playing solo.

 

Do you have any statistical data to support this claim?

 

 

 

 

I am calling you out on it.

 

Ammo restores would now fill you to 100% in one use. I solo all the time.

 

Choose ammo efficiency when picking your loadout.

[Varzy]

>hard to get weapon like Boltor Prime

>Trading chat

>plays videogame

>uses money to skip gameplay

 

Edited March 13, 2014 by Varzy

[Paradoxbomb]

Although some of these numbers are a bit ludicrous (180 max ammo for the Boltor Prime?) I think people are missing the main point that ammo capacity does play a big role in weapon balance, only beaten by the actual DPS of the weapon itself. Why use a single target sniper with 72 shots and rare ammo drops when I can just use a Grenade launcher with no damage mitigation, immense damage per shot, AND uses the largest and most common ammo pool?

 

Don't get me wrong, even a Penta with 30-40 shots would still be OP and the actual damage system is in need of a balance more so than ammo capacity, but that doesn't mean that this shouldn't go ignored. Ammo should definitely play a bigger role in balancing out weapons.

[notionphil]

/sigh The "powerful" weapons are already hard to get. They are either clan tech or require a rank 6 (like the Soma). The difficulty to get them has already been evened out and nerfing ammo would just make them all reach a new low of useless.

 

 

I'm guessing you are new here so I'll be gentle :D

 

There is nearly no relationship in WF between how difficult something is to obtain and how powerful it is. Especially now with plat buying primes.

 

Some of the most powerful weapons in the game are accessible from the moment you create an account, like the Latron Prime, Burston Prime and presumably Boltor Prime. You can also now plat buy most/all new clantech.

[Boondorl]

>plays videogame

>uses money to skip gameplay

 

If by gameplay you mean more mindless grinding.

 

Also, I haven't bought a single weapon in this game with actual money. But the fact that you pretend this weapon is hard to get is hilarious. I might believe that if it were locked at MR 8 or something very high.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

But buffing ammo is useless at current; all weapons have more than enough ammo.

 

Ammo would have to matter for an ammo buff to count. Which requires less drop rates, and less ammo cap.

 

Really? Because even with ammo mutation and trick mag, Vipers will burn through the entire ammo pool in a matter of minutes, the same to a lesser extent with AkStilletos if you want to try using them as anything other than your sidearm, while the Ak Magnus and AkLato, I can happily get away with no pistol ammo mutation and no trick mags.

 

If you'd want to increase the corresponding ammo store of weaker weapons to encourage use, have at it, but given most of the higher lvl weapons will be used against higher lvl enemies with the corresponding HP and armour reduction values, nerfing the ammo to the lvl you suggest would push everyone towards damage buff frames such as Nova, or enemy specific frames such as Volt, Mag and Saryn (who have issues even against their respective factions) for their powers.

 

Yet, your point is more, the Braton should have greater use, therefore the ammo rate on the Soma should be dropped... wut? Then why is the Soma xp locked at rank 6 or the Braton Prime limited to the void and requires a stack of materials to craft? They should be specifically better given the associated cost of securing and crafting them, the ammo capacity needn't be dropped to the extent you're suggesting. 

 

On a similar note, should the Penta have that much ammo? No, it's a grenade launcher, ammo lvls should be weapon specific not buffed and nerfed universally by weapon lvl and types. 

[avinity8]

I disagree with OP.

 

Not to mention the fact we have ammo packs. Nerfing ammo cap will just lead people to spamming more ammo pack which in turn leads to more farming for mats for the ammo pack.... is OP a secret operative for DE?!

 

Don't be fool guys!  Lol

[notionphil]

Although some of these numbers are a bit ludicrous (180 max ammo for the Boltor Prime?) I think people are missing the main point that ammo capacity does play a big role in weapon balance, only beaten by the actual DPS of the weapon itself. Why use a single target sniper with 72 shots and rare ammo drops when I can just use a Grenade launcher with no damage mitigation, immense damage per shot, AND uses the largest and most common ammo pool?

 

Don't get me wrong, even a Penta with 30-40 shots would still be OP and the actual damage system is in need of a balance more so than ammo capacity, but that doesn't mean that this shouldn't go ignored. Ammo should definitely play a bigger role in balancing out weapons.

 

Obviously I had to use big numbers and an attn grabbing title to get my point across :D

 

But yes, some of these changes are logical even at a smaller scale.

[-Krux-]

this would be terrible. ammo is already not enough when dealing in high level defense and survival

[LukeAura]

Ammo becomes a serious issue regardless of weapon, mastery rank or mission level when you play solo.

I play solo all the time and never have a problem with Boltor Prime ammo, or Strun Wraith, most shotguns in general. 

No ammo mutation either. 

I would say though, ammo drops would need to become more deterministic than they are with this idea. Risks need to be accurately calculable, no emergency I needed to spray ammo down the hall but don't get back a single piece. 

Some weapons have more ammo than they'll ever need. Some don't have enough(Afuris for example absolutely chew ammo to achieve their dps levels, and it's no way sustainable, even with mutations)

 

[direcyphre]

So in other words, nerf ammo capacity to make ammo mods useful? Make it so every gun needs ammo mods to stay relevant? I'm still not seeing a solution to any possible problem with this idea.

[notionphil]

Really? Because even with ammo mutation and trick mag, Vipers will burn through the entire ammo pool in a matter of minutes, the same to a lesser extent with AkStilletos if you want to try using them as anything other than your sidearm, while the Ak Magnus and AkLato, I can happily get away with no pistol ammo mutation and no trick mags.

 

If you'd want to increase the corresponding ammo store of weaker weapons to encourage use, have at it, but given most of the higher lvl weapons will be used against higher lvl enemies with the corresponding HP and armour reduction values, nerfing the ammo to the lvl you suggest would push everyone towards damage buff frames such as Nova, or enemy specific frames such as Volt, Mag and Saryn (who have issues even against their respective factions) for their powers.

 

Yet, your point is more, the Braton should have greater use, therefore the ammo rate on the Soma should be dropped... wut? Then why is the Soma xp locked at rank 6 or the Braton Prime limited to the void and requires a stack of materials to craft? They should be specifically better given the associated cost of securing and crafting them, the ammo capacity needn't be dropped to the extent you're suggesting. 

 

On a similar note, should the Penta have that much ammo? No, it's a grenade launcher, ammo lvls should be weapon specific not buffed and nerfed universally by weapon lvl and types. 

 

 

I disagree with OP.

 

Not to mention the fact we have ammo packs. Nerfing ammo cap will just lead people to spamming more ammo pack which in turn leads to more farming for mats for the ammo pack.... is OP a secret operative for DE?!

 

Don't be fool guys!  Lol

 

OP is a secret operative for not wanting the game to funnel all players into the same 10 weapons and 4 frames bc they are better in every way.

[Leorion]

I'm guessing you are new here so I'll be gentle :D

 

There is nearly no relationship in WF between how difficult something is to obtain and how powerful it is. Especially now with plat buying primes.

 

Some of the most powerful weapons in the game are accessible from the moment you create an account, like the Latron Prime, Burston Prime and presumably Boltor Prime. You can also now plat buy most/all new clantech.

 

Warframe needs the money, can't do anything about that. I'm talking about gameplay earned with 0$ put in. That being put into consideration, no new player will ever be able to get all of those for free alone. 

[notionphil]

So in other words, nerf ammo capacity to make ammo mods useful? Make it so every gun needs ammo mods to stay relevant? I'm still not seeing a solution to any possible problem with this idea.

 

Ammo cap would relate to weapon power, and if it has any other tradeoffs.

 

Some guns would get more cap. Supra might get 700 ammo. Grakata 1200. Guns which have no tradeoffs and are better in every way would have reduced ammo caps.

 

EX: soma, penta, boltor prime.

[Varzy]

If by gameplay you mean more mindless grinding.

 

Also, I haven't bought a single weapon in this game with actual money. But the fact that you pretend this weapon is hard to get is hilarious. I might believe that if it were locked at MR 8 or something very high.

Grind isn't a grind if you've got friends to run it with. Fact of the matter is, with no real endgame or lore, the only way Warframe works right now is to set your own goals -- decide what you want to do and get it done. With the Void runs and Orokin Cells needed, Prime Weapons are intended to be one such project unless you're going to shell out platinum for them -- and since you said yourself you don't, why are you even using clan trading as a rebuttal? :/

[Leorion]

OP is a secret operative for not wanting the game to funnel all players into the same 10 weapons and 4 frames bc they are better in every way.

 

How about suggesting a way to improve the bad frames and mods instead of making the good one's bad. 

[notionphil]

Warframe needs the money, can't do anything about that. I'm talking about gameplay earned with 0$ put in. That being put into consideration, no new player will ever be able to get all of those for free alone. 

 

that's not the reality here. the reality is rank 0's with somas from the nekros bundle and rank 1's rhino prime access and boltor.

[avinity8]

OP is a secret operative for not wanting the game to funnel all players into the same 10 weapons and 4 frames bc they are better in every way.

 

It's your choice to utilize the same 10 weapons or so and same 4 frames or so.

 

I always see people using other frames that are generally shun on. Because they prefer that frame.

 

Again, the idea is bad. Ammo packs and ammo mutation... Unless you want DE to get rid of those, then your suggestion is nothing more than a nuisance imo.

[Varzy]

that's not the reality here. the reality is rank 0's with somas from the nekros bundle and rank 1's rhino prime access and boltor.

Wait, so is this actually about you not liking people with plat getting good weapons?