Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

Suddenly I'm inspired to say Iron Skin should gain additional armor proportional to the amount of health it lost.

 

... That'd make it last.

 

That would be really neat but I think Rhino needs more to really be a 'tank' frame. Right now hes got the ways to avoid damage but not much else to draw fire from everyone else.

[Azamagon]

That would be really neat but I think Rhino needs more to really be a 'tank' frame. Right now hes got the ways to avoid damage but not much else to draw fire from everyone else.

Iron Skin doesn't draw extra aggro baseline? If not, or regardless if it does, another way to make him a more redirecting tank: Why not make it so Roar also staggers and taunts them to fight him (stagger is so he has time to apply Iron Skin quickly)? Maybe with the taunted enemies dealing slightly less damage for the duration? *shrugs*

[Archwizard]

Iron Skin doesn't draw extra aggro baseline? If not, or regardless if it does, another way to make him a more redirecting tank: Why not make it so Roar also staggers and taunts them to fight him (stagger is so he has time to apply Iron Skin quickly)? Maybe with the taunted enemies dealing slightly less damage for the duration? *shrugs*

 

Based on the fact that it has a cooldown, that would make it pretty hard to taunt on-demand.

Especially considering even Loki can.

 

What I was considering, actually, was giving Rhino a passive to draw more threat from alerted foes. Less than Absorb, Decoy or Molt but more than most Warframes and perhaps Defense objectives.

 

That whole "Mastery Rank 2" thing would turn into an immediate hint that you shouldn't play him if you're afraid to have everything trying to eat you.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Archwizard

[AlphaHorseman]

I hope they're not looking at this thread and thinking AUGMENTS AUGMENTS AUGMENTS and actually looking at these to re tune the frames for viability, rather than making augments that make their powers viable.

 

Powers should be viable without the need of augments, and scale. Augments should add an interesting dynamic to the power, but not necessitate its scalability, utility, or CC. In other words, the power must be able to achieve its function without the need of the augment, and such augments should be considered for specialization of a power to achieve a new dynamic.

[Azamagon]

Based on the fact that it has a cooldown, that would make it pretty hard to taunt on-demand.

Especially considering even Loki can.

 

What I was considering, actually, was giving Rhino a passive to draw more threat from alerted foes. Less than Absorb, Decoy or Molt but more than most Warframes and perhaps Defense objectives.

 

That whole "Mastery Rank 2" thing would turn into an immediate hint that you shouldn't play him if you're afraid to have everything trying to eat you.

Easily solved: Make Roar refreshable at any time :)

[sappinmahsentry]

I love your changes but one thing, I fear that teleport change will make Ash too awesome, It'll allow you to go in and out of a battle, picking off any lone enemy, I don't want to see tons of Ash frames, then he'll get boring :(. But I agree being able to teleport where you please. Also, Hydroid sounds fun, just "wave" 'em bye and watch 'em "flow" away and "crash" into a wall.

Edited December 28, 2014 by sappinmahsentry

[DesecratedPoop]

I have a suggestion for Super Jump that I think would improve what the devs were trying to do with the new changes. Excalibur turns invisible during Super Jump, allowing him to break enemy aggro and hide behind cover without being chased. It is also extremely useful in boss fights to take the boss's aggro off while Excalibur's shields regenerate. This gives players great control over a boss' aggression, and multiple Excaliburs can coordinate to take turns tanking the boss. Super Jump has turned into a defensive ability. However, the slight defensive buff is so subtle that many players don't even notice it. But, if Super Jump instantly made Excalibur's shields start to regenerate upon cast, cancelling the recharge delay, I think that people will start see its defensive capabilities, and use it as such. Since Super Jump only costs 10 energy, the amount of shields regenerated during the jump should be enough for its cost. If it costed more however, I would say that it needs a 50% buff to max shield capacity and 100% buff to shield regen rate for a short duration. Maybe that could go into another one of his abilities?

[ShardsSuperior]

Bring old Overheat back, but make its damage reduction only for melee attacks.

[Archwizard]

Since Super Jump only costs 10 energy, the amount of shields regenerated during the jump should be enough for its cost. 

 

Fair enough. Added to the OP.

 

Bring old Overheat back

 

Hah! Funny.

No. If Fire Blast was able to do its job properly, Ember wouldn't need any other anti-melee defense.

 

But on a lighter note, I made another edit to the OP regarding Ember. There's some light supportive functionality tied in, not quite cauterizing wounds but enough to make Ember thoroughly anti-Infested; I displaced an idea I'd had for some time about Ember melting goo and setting gases ablaze that Oberon couldn't deal with off of Fire Blast (like I was saying, I'd been overloading it lately) and onto World on Fire (which otherwise had very little utility). This gave me room to add one minor buff to the Blast - since up until that point, it was only doing as much as the original iteration of it, which had always been somewhat lacking.

 

TL;DR: Strong anti-Infested. Itty bit of anti-ballistic too.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Archwizard

[nekrojiji]

Bring old Overheat back, but make its damage reduction only for melee attacks.

 

Why do you need anti melee when you have World on Fire + Accelerant? 

 

A better target selection for WoF (always target the nearest and this goes for Mesa's Peacemaker too) it's enough, giving that Fire Blast is now usefull with the augment.

 

That's my point of view ... 

Edited December 30, 2014 by nekrojiji

[AlphaHorseman]

Why do you need anti melee when you have World on Fire + Accelerant? 

 

A better target selection for WoF (always target the nearest and this goes for Mesa's Peacemaker too) it's enough, giving that Fire Blast is now usefull with the augment.

 

That's my point of view ... 

I would concur, but what still irritates me is the bold. The power is only now useful, with the addition of an augment. These augments should not fix powers to make them useful, they should augment them to add a dynamic to a power, not make them viable. I hate that this is what they're doing with the augments.

[TESTAMENTEXE]

I'm not going to lie, But "Bullet hell seems like one hell of a time to have some fun with? Imagine the machinamas you can make

[Archwizard]

I would concur, but what still irritates me is the bold. The power is only now useful, with the addition of an augment. These augments should not fix powers to make them useful, they should augment them to add a dynamic to a power, not make them viable. I hate that this is what they're doing with the augments.

 

With some.

 

Fire Frenzy, in particular, is essentially the poster child for the worst thing you can do to an ability.

- It affects an ability that has zero utility, on a frame with the barest minimum.

- It returns a function that Ember already had but lost in an unrelated change to gameplay.

- It adds nothing new to how the skill is used; it's a pure buff to doing exactly the same thing you would always do with it.

 

On the other hand, there are several very good augments as well. Antimatter Absorb, Smoke Shadow, Curative Undertow, Regenerative Molt, Irradiating Disarm... all add an extra utility to a skill that had some scaling effect. The elemental infusions, Swing Line, Resonance, Hall of Malevolence and Rift Torrent give an increase in potency as a reward for using the same effect in a very specific way.

 

We have to avoid generalizations. Not all augments are badly designed, just... more than any of us are comfortable with.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Archwizard

[AlphaHorseman]

 

With some.

 

Fire Frenzy, in particular, is essentially the poster child for the worst thing you can do to an ability.

- It affects an ability that has zero utility, on a frame with the barest minimum.

- It returns a function that Ember already had but lost in an unrelated change to gameplay.

- It adds nothing new to how the skill is used; it's a pure buff to doing exactly the same thing you would always do with it.

 

On the other hand, there are several very good augments as well. Antimatter Absorb, Smoke Shadow, Curative Undertow, Regenerative Molt, Irradiating Disarm... all add an extra utility to a skill that had some scaling effect. The elemental infusions, Swing Line, Resonance, Hall of Malevolence and Rift Torrent give an increase in potency as a reward for using the same effect in a very specific way.

 

We have to avoid generalizations. Not all augments are badly designed, just... more than any of us are comfortable with.

You're very right, haha, I didn't see your other post. And thank you again for posting this for me to realize how angry I was at some of the augments, not all of them.

 

I agree with you, some of them are good, they add to a power, not make it viable. Some..are not, and patch where they should be integrated outright.

 

I hope they realize this with augments, as they should add, not make viable. Some have done the job, as Irradiated Disarm does, Antimatter Absorb, and others. Others, are things that these powers should have outright.

[DesecratedPoop]

@ Archwizard. You speak as if Zephyr should be the absolute master of the air just like the concept stated, but I don't think the changes you wrote down are enough to make that happen. This is especially because we have another "master" of a medium to compare her to: Limbo. Limbo is a true master of the Rift, with his abilities expanding upon what he can do in the Rift, he can control everything that happens in the Rift. I think this is probably the first time in a while that DE designed a frame around an ability concept rather than an aesthetic theme (the last time they did this was Valkyr), which is why he seems so fresh and different from all the other frames. The surest sign of this design is self-synergy. Limbo and Valkyr both have lots of it. If Zephyr is to become a true master of the air, then I feel that her abilities need to be reworked from the ground up.

 

What are your thoughts on the matter?

[DesecratedPoop]

@ Archwizard

 

This is just an inquiry about your design philosophy when it comes to Warframe. I don't mean to be rude or anything.

 

Looking at your suggestions for ability reworks, it seems that you are rather conservative towards changing abilities completely and would rather have most Warframes fill a generalist type of role as opposed to being heavily specialized. It seems that you are trying to lean more towards the LoL style of balance between classes, where each class accomplishes the same things different ways. I personally think that this leads to stagnation in Warframe's gameplay, with there only being a small set number of purposes an ability can have. DE seems to be following this path as well, although Limbo was a major deviation, his abilities couldn't really be described the same way as those of any other warframe. I think that this way would lead to more fun and diverse gameplay in Warframe, however care must be taken so that the Warframe can still at least function in all situations. Obviously, this heavily specialized design would be harder to balance for as we have to take care to avoid the class conflict (only want x class for y mission) in most MMORPG's.

 

Not all frames need to be heavily specialized but I think that one frame that really needs this the most is Frost. If he is truly a defensive frame, then why does he have 3 abilities that are mainly about damage? Avalanche can be forgiven, since a defensive frame still might need a nuke when the times get tough, but Freeze and Ice Wave lack anything effective to do area defense and lockdown as they are currently. What if Frost were reworked to be master of area lockdown, much like how Limbo is master of his rift. All of Frost's abilities would then be about controlling what is inside the area that he is in, inside his Snow Globe. He would be able to control who goes in, who stays out. Affect the enemies/allies within his area with different debuffs/buffs, and of course, nuke everything inside his globe. Just something to think about.

 

On the other hand, I would like to ask what you think about complete total overhaul reworks in general. You seem hesitant to do them, which I presume is because you want to increase the chances of your suggestions are implemented and avoid insulting the designers of the abilities. But are there any frames that you think need so much work to be good/fit their niche that it would be easier to start over?

 

Lastly, I would like to ask you about Nekros. You and many others want Desecrate to be removed, but what do you think should happen after? What should Nekros become? It seems that you want a minion master type Warframe, but that is so far from Nekros is right now, he would have to be completely reworked for that to happen. On the other hand, if we are just adjusting Nekros' powers slightly, then we would end up with a generalist type Warframe like Oberon. Below I have posted two full reworks of Nekros follwing these two different themes. I would like to know what you think about them. Please note that these are not suggestions for what should be implemented into Nekros' abilities, they are merely extreme examples of two opposite design theories: super-generalist and hyper-specialist.

 

Darth Oberon* (generalist support frame):

 

1. Incorporate 25 energy

Nekros absorbs the corpse of an enemy unit, restoring 50/100/150/200 health and gaining 300% armor if the corpse is Grineer, 150% shields if Corpus, 150% health if Infested, and halved bonuses of all others if it is Corrupted. There is also a 3/40/50/60% chance for Nekros to gain 50 energy from each cast. The buff lasts 9/12/15/18 seconds and the ability cannot be recast until the buff wears off.

 

2. Eternal Rest 50 energy

Nekros projects the image of an angel onto himself for 10/15/20/25 seconds, beckoning enemies to the afterlife. All enemies in a 18/21/24/27m radius around Nekros gain 20/25/30/35% reduced movement speed and fire rate/attack speed (for melee), 40/50/60/70% reduced accuracy, 5/10/15/20% reduced damage and are attracted to Nekros, walking out in the open around him (incapable of hiding behind cover). All affected enemies can be finished from any direction like Paralysis. Nekros is immune to knockdown/stagger/status while this ability is active.

 

3. Exorcise 75 energy

Nekros pushes the souls out of all enemies around him in a 12/15/18/21m radius, permanently ragdolling them and imprisoning them like the G3. The enemies release souls, which float stationary above their bodies and have the base health of their respective owners. The souls have no damage resistances or weaknesses and act like decoys to all other enemies, drawing their fire. If a soul takes enough damage, its linked owner also dies. All enemies not killed at the end of this ability they are dealt 90/180/270/360 damage split between IPS with a high chance to proc and can get up. The ability lasts 12/15/18/21 seconds. If the ability is toggled off before it runs half of its duration, all exorcised enemies are dealt half damage and ragdolled away from Nekros with tremendous force.

 

4. Haunt 75 energy

For 45/60/75/90 seconds, all enemies that spawn into the game (I think it should work in Exterminate as long as you are not in the last room, not sure on how spawning in Exterm missions happens) will also be cloned and spawn around Nekros as shadows. If the maximum number of shadows, 6/9/12/18, is reached, each new spawned enemy will replace the oldest one. Shadows have higher priority than players and are 10 levels higher.

 

Geppetto* (specialized summoner):

 

1. Flash clone 35 energy

Nekros sends a swarm of nanobots to scan a target, marking it for reconstruction and inflicting a viral, corrosive, and magnetic proc. The target is marked for 9/11/13/15 seconds. Upon death, the target rises as an Eximus of the same unit but 10 levels higher. The unit has Tenno Specter AI and is called a Shadow Specter. A maximum of 1/2/3/4 clones may be created like this with no set duration.

 

2. Life blast 50 energy

A radial blast emanating from Nekros, and each of his Shadow Specters that deals 100/200/300/400 viral damage with a high chance to proc and ragdolls the enemies away like the Jat Kittag. Any enemies killed by this ability have their total base health restored to Nekros and all of his Shadow Specters.

 

3. Overclock 75 energy

Nekros sends his nanobots into overdrive and buffs his Shadow Specters greatly for 10/14/17/20 seconds. All Shadow Specters gain 70/80/90/100% movement speed, 100/200/300/400% damage (including from their individual Life Blasts), 10/20/30/40% fire rate/attack speed, and are immune to knockdown/stagger while losing 40% of their health. Each kill a Shadow Specter makes while this is active restores 5/7/9/13 energy to Nekros. Shadow Specters cannot die while this is active and instead share health with Nekros if their own health falls below 0.

 

4. Nano-swarm 100 energy

A 15/20/25/30m aura activates around Nekros that constantly heals his Shadow Specters for 1/2/3/4 health per second and lasts 15/20/25/30 seconds. All enemies that enter the aura are inflicted with viral, corrosive, and magnetic proc. Any enemy that dies within this aura is raised as a regular shadow of the dead around Nekros up to a maximum of 6/8/10/12 shadows. If an enemy is killed when the aura is filled, it instead restores 10/15/20/25 energy to Nekros. At the end of the ability, all the shadows explode for 200 viral damage each, with high proc chance. The ability can be toggled off prematurely to make the shadows explode.

 

*I like witty names.

Edited January 1, 2015 by DesecratedPoop

[Archwizard]

-Zephyr-

 

In this case, this actual parameters come down to one's own definition of what makes an Air Support.

 

In my eyes, an Air Support should be someone who can attack enemies from above and use their distance as a natural defense; the jet who drops bombs as she flies overhead. Zephyr has parts of it already in place - Tail Wind for creating that distance and Turbulence for exploiting it - but in spite of her passive making her ever so slightly lighter, I agree that she still has trouble in this department. Dive Bomb synergizes with Tail Wind, but it goes against what makes an air support by removing her from her element; I attempted to instead adapt this to further emphasize being the lone master of the air, as it should be easier for her to strike grounded foes who are... well... grounded. In fairness to Dive Bomb, it does loosely fit the parameters of 'attacking from above'.

But then there's Tornado. It's neat, but it's pretty worthless in either case. It could maybe work in the same sense that Limbo's skills work by bringing foes close for her to use the actual damage element of Tail Wind, but even I think that's a stretch. But, when you think "wind elemental", it is the quintessential skill...

 

The trouble is, there's not really an explicit definition of what an air support needs beyond "be in the air". The more input that is given on this matter, the better idea we can have toward molding Zephyr into perfection.

 

For the record, no, I wouldn't say what's written up for Zephyr is anywhere near finished. There's a goal, and as with all goals, we need to work towards it.

 

-Design Philosophy/Specialization, Overhauls, Frost, Nekros-

 

As the argument above is somewhat connected...

 

The design philosophy in the OP is conservative because, while it's always fun to imagine and write up complete reworks, it's not as simple for the devs to actually deploy. If we want what we say to be taken seriously, we have to try to adapt and improve upon existing elements, or they just won't bother. There's a difference between "readjusting an existing frame to fit a specific role" - even if this includes replacing an ability or two that doesn't function in the kit, as they were willing to do with Overheat - and "creating an entirely new frame, but recycling older art assets".

Plus, if the first thought was always "scrap everything, start over", you wouldn't ever think outside the box. Just look at how far we've come with the Saryn notes!

 

I believe above all that all frames need synergy within their own kits, but that doesn't always mean that a frame needs to be specialized - simply that they need the proper tools for whatever role they're being pushed toward.

Consider Loki, long hailed by these forums as the "master race" of Warframes. His kit is very broad, not particularly specialized; personal stealth, crowd control, mobility. Each tool is okay on its own, but he doesn't survive well, and we all know that stealth isn't all that rewarding, rarely even executed in group play. What attracted people to this peculiar fellow? Truth could be any number of things, but it's particularly that the vague specialties of his skills which allow him grand swaths of flexibility when they're used together, with potential for several different strategies and payouts.

You were saying that, to be a completed area-defense frame, Frost needs more control over who can enter or who must exit his sphere of effect. If you get right down to the heart of the matter, you're saying he needs something to lock enemies down and something to control enemy positioning. In the OP, I went straight for the obvious for the former (expanding his existing first skill) and the simplest solution to the latter (knockback to get foes out of the sphere), but he could still be considered an area-defense master if you swapped elements around; for example, getting some kind of pulling effect at range and a way to paralyze everyone nearby for a notable duration.

If you based the entire kit on having Snow Globe up, you'd be rather screwed leveling him until you picked up Snow Globe, or if you put on a build that damaged Snow Globe in any way.

 

The thing about developing a directly-specialized frame is that you tell players "this is how you play it". This gives very little room for exploration or deviation; it's like creating a maze or crossword puzzle with only one solution, rather than a dynamic game with risk and reward elements. Something about Limbo that I've taken umbrage with is that he lacks on-the-spot fluidity, and requires quite a bit of setup and micromanaging. Perhaps there are players that have been seeking out this type of playstyle, but when your 'toolkit' includes literally 3 different variants on the exact same effect, it can be hard to find something exciting. The most dynamic you can get with it is spending the match dancing in and out of Rift Walk for the intangibility and movement speed.

There are players who detest Dive Bomb for merely being a downward Tail Wind, but are perfectly fine with Rift Walk being quite literally a self-cast Banish ("For 10 less energy!" Oh, that makes a world of difference.) designed to overcome yet another of the game's convoluted targeting limitations; Dive Bomb at least has approaching-infinite travel distance and a knockdown.

Valkyr is actually a contrast to this, given that each of her skills are - as I said - just tools, not limitations. Rip Line as much a gap-closer as it is a gap-creator, which can make her excellent for positioning herself as a sniper or generally running away; Warcry and Paralysis are still all-purpose CCs; Hysteria is still death-immunity, which you can jump into to raise fallen allies or reach a Life Support capsule unscathed. She works best as a melee, but she can go without at any time without too much penalty, and in the interests of player customization, that gameplay should be supported. If you wanna minimize Duration so as not to be locked out of your rifle for too long on Hysteria, that preference is entirely up to you.

Doesn't need to be anywhere near optimal, but should be supported the same as anything else.

 

As for Nekros, a minion master really wouldn't be that far off if minions were actually useful, which is primarily an AI trouble above all else.

Again, just consider the tools needed: Something to create minions (present!), something to sustain them and/or improve their effectiveness (and if you have room, something for yourself if minions are not immediately available). You can sustain them through preventing (through CC or mitigation) or undoing (through healing) the damage they receive; you can improve their effectiveness by buffing them, debuffing enemies to be more receptive to their attacks, or even just making enemies unable to flee or fight back. It's a very flexible definition, but the problem is that Desecrate actively takes away from it, while Soul Punch and Terrify (while nominally fitting both) have some kinks of their own.

I might be able to see Scott wanting to avoid a minion-spawning necromancer, if I could tell what direction he even meant for Nekros between the self-lockouts, redundant CCs, and obligatory 'dark magic' skills. Nekros' design seems to value appearance over function, aside from Desecrate.

 

The thing that amuses me about both of your reworks, I'm fairly certain I've written up approximately those skills for Nekros at some time or other. (There've been several iterations over the past 16 months, if you include those I wrote right after he was announced.)

Edited January 2, 2015 by Archwizard

[DeusXmakina]

I like a lot of these ideas! Especially a rework to Nekros's shadow of the dead. A nekros with a hoard of undead would make him the true king of the dead.

I have some ideas for passives abilities if they will be available in the future, small gimmicks that work with character lore and customization

Excalibur: passive that increase Reset timer on melee counter, or increased channeling damage, making excalibur a more viable melee frame. I feel this would effectively encourage a melee playstyle with excalibur, without giving him overpowering abilities. I'd like excalibur to live up to his name. Also, a rework to slashdash that allows directional control while moving.

Rhino: passive knockback on touch when sprinting through enemies. This passive would be lore friendly, and would be a small gimmick to a already powerful warframe.

Ashe: passive that increases timeframe in which finisher melee attacks happen, "fastest finishing hits". An increase in damage with daggers and throwing weapons. Stealth play in warframe is very inefficient, so a extremely quick animation would encourage stealth play for this particular frame. With ashe, finishers are easier to execute due to teleport so this passive would help. Ashe seems to be a assasin type frame, so this seems lore friendly.

Trinity:passive that increases reviving speeds when reviving allies.

Nekros: passive that adds a specter(or syndicate spawn) to shadows of the dead cache after set time, so that nekros can actually summon stuff even without killing things.

Mesa: already has a passive, good as is.

Hydroid: passive that allows for about double slide length. With water as his specialty, it makes sense if he is the master of slip n' slides.

Ember: passive that gives innate resistance to fire damage, health/power regen upon contact with environmental elements. She can shoot fireballs but still gets burnt as badly as anyone else? This would be a nice addition.

Saryn: passive with toxic resistance. Health/power regen

Volt: passive with electrical resistance. Health/power regen

Loki: passive with slight increased damage when attacking from behind enemies. A trickster stabs people in the back right.

Limbo: needs more than just a passive, rework is needed, agreed with op ideas. Another idea would be a knockdown with cataclysm on enterting and leaving of space ball, and a toggleable cataclysm would cure most problems with cataclysm.

Frost: passive that resists ice slowing effects.

Banshee: passive that decreases line of sight of enemies to a frontal cone while banshee is crouching. She's suppose to be good with sounds right?

Mag: passive with innate vacuum, that way she doesn't have to use carrier and because she has a magnetic personality.

Nova: passive that increases damage with particle/lazer guns. flux, gammacor, etc.

Nyx: passive that adds health regen while nyx doesn't move. This would synergize well with nyx's meditation.

Valkyr: passive that increase damage to fist and sparring weapons.

Oberon: passive that increase speed for heavy weapons melee weapons.

These are all simply small gimmicks, some more than others, but i feel they would contrubute to each warframes uniqueness. And I feel like im forgetting someone?

Edited January 1, 2015 by DeusXmakina

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Most of these are pretty fair.

I feel Nekros' is very limited, since that's not a 'passive' so much as an effect of the ability. No ultimate, no passive; sucks even more to be underleveled. You may as well just write in for Shadows that if you don't have enough kills, generic soldiers are created.

I've been considering similar for Hydroid, but he's already got Tidal Surge for mobility. He definitely should swim faster in the Water tileset, though.

Mag's seems highly redundant, considering that they plan to eventually add a Vacuum mod for all Sentinels (or just increase pickup range for Warframes...).

I also believe that Valkyr's should probably be expanded to the level of Excalibur's, since she's more melee-focused than he is. Worst case, perhaps some Channeling-related passives?

Likewise, perhaps just a passive for a specific weapon type is also too limited for Oberon. He's technically an elemental, perhaps something to do with Radiation damage or Knockback resistance?

 

Couple other passives I might recommend would be displacing Mesa's old Primary passives onto Banshee, threat generation for Rhino, and Disruption immunity for Mag. Perhaps status immunity for Ember, Saryn, and Volt rather than regen.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Archwizard

[RCOAS]

I @(*()$ LOVE THIS.

[AlphaHorseman]

@Archwizard

 

I see that others have commented on the states of augments within this post. I myself made a topic about this, and it garnered some positive feedback from the community. I'd like your thoughts on the topic, as I think you could add some interesting points and help me critique the post itself. Please, tell me what you think:

 

 

Augments are an interesting new aspect that has been added to WarFrame. On the one hand, they represent a way for players to tailor their powers in a way we have not seen before, allowing for customization that we haven’t seen before with our abilities. On the other hand, some have been used to band aid powers that the community would see reworked/buffed, rather than given an augment as a band aid. Some of these augments called into question were Surging Dash, Ice Wave Impedance, and Pacifying Bolts.

 

Patch Up Augments:

 

 

Why are these augments receiving scrutiny? Well, because they have traits that should have been built into the powers they apply to. Why? Because these augments apply a dynamic that allows these powers some type of CC, Utility, or something others would call common sense to be included with this ability that they do not have outright.

 

Ice Wave Impedance adds a trait to Ice Wave that allows it to scale through its utility, where Ice Wave had very little without it.

 

Pacifying Bolts gives Psychic Bolts some CC, whereas without it, the skill has no scalability and is a very mitigated damage power.

 

Surging Dash allows Slash Dash to add its melee hits to Excaliburs’ melee hit counter, where many would say that the skill should have done so without the augment, clearly because Excal is hitting enemy units with his melee weapon, and such hits should already count to the melee counter.

 

What these augments all have in common is that the skills they are applied to were in need of reworks or added mechanics innately, to make them viable. There are others as well that add to this list.

 

 

I hope that we all can agree that we would like our entire abilities kits being viable, not just one power or the other. Such mentality of one power being the go-to, or only useful, is what can help spread the mentality of “Press [insert power key here] to win”. But, I must digress that these augments should not be the thing that makes our entire kit viable, they should add a dynamic to a power, making them more interesting to use, but they should not make the power viable to use outright.

 

Rules to Follow:

 

So, as a general guideline to augments, I would propose these following aspects for DE to consider when they’re looking at augments and abilities:

 

1. If a power is only viable as a damage output, meaning that it has little to no Crowd Control, Utility, or Scalability, it does not need an augment, the skill in question needs to be reworked/buffed to have these traits added to them.

 

2. If a power completes its function, whatever that may be, with some sense of Crowd Control, Utility, or Scalability, then an augment that ADDS something to the ability, or ALTERS it to NOT hinder its Crowd Control, Utility, or Scalability, then said augment would be a viable choice for addition to the game.

a. If the augment in question to which alters and/or takes away from the Crowd Control, Utility, Scalability, or functionality of a power [i.e. casting cost of Despoil when compared to its regular counterpart], it would be important to strengthen those areas of Crowd Control, Utility, Scalability or functionality that have not been hindered.

 

3. Augments should not add CC, Utility, or Scalability that a power should have outright, or a mechanic that makes sense to be built within the power.

 

4. An Augment should not be the defining factor that creates synergy with the powers of a WarFrame. If a WarFrames kit does not have some semblance of synergy between powers, then powers may be looked at for reworking/buffing, but not use an augment to create such synergy.

a. Synergy between the augments of a frame would be viable, but these augments should not create said synergy themselves.

 

An example of a good augment is Irradiated Disarm. Radial Disarm completes its function well enough, it can scale, has good crowd control, and the utility is evident. Irradiated Disarm adds a dynamic to the power that, although makes for interesting game play, is not necessary for the power to function, scale, have utility, or crowd control, Radial Disarm has that outright.

 

 

I believe all of us would like the entirety of our kit to be reliable. When damage won’t do it, ensuring that our powers have some sort of Utility, CC, or scalability helps to keep all our powers viable, not just one. This would help with the mentality of “Press [insert power key here] to win.” Though it wouldn’t solve that mindset, having some diversity on the field when it comes to pressing power keys would be a better alternative than to what we have now.

 

Having all powers be useful, even when damage doesn’t do the trick, is a great level of competence and usability that I think we all can agree is where we want all our frames to be. This should be achievable without augments, not necessitated for some skills through them.

 

As it stands, some augments are good, they add a dynamic to a power that it doesn’t need to scale, Irradiated Disarm is a good example. Yet, others add a mechanic that actually makes the power viable for more than its damage output, Pacifying Bolts and Ice Wave Impedance for examples. The Surging Dash mod, well, that too doesn’t scale well when enemies are too far and you’re up close and personal with high level enemies.

 

Augments should not “fix” these powers’ lack of Scalability, CC, or Utility, they should be meant to add interesting mechanics to powers that, although are fun to have, do not outright add needed mechanics to these powers.

 

Should a power be lacking in these fields, it makes sense for these powers to get reworked/buffed, rather than patched with an augment.

 

[Archwizard]

Why are these augments receiving scrutiny? Well, because they have traits that should have been built into the powers they apply to.

 

While true, you don't really go into why those traits were necessary for the abilities in the first place. It's one thing to say that Slash Dash should have a combo boost because he's hitting with his melee weapon, it's quite another to say that Slash Dash has no scaling ability or utility to it (which a combo boost would cover). You mention the lack of scaling function later in the post, but it comes off as an afterthought; you should get to that point immediately so there's no doubt as to what you're asking.

You should also cover exactly why a scaling function is necessary: if an ability is purely a damaging effect, then the damage will fall off and become less significant as level increases, and simply giving a stagger to every damage skill does not provide any sort of unique identity to a skill once reduced to it; in cases like Ice Wave, the function it does retain can also be overshadowed by the rest of the kit.

(It's funny how people accuse me of trying to give the same kit to everyone when Scott literally said "We'll add staggers to all of those abilities" on a devstream when posed with this question.)

You need to answer the question, "Why is it wrong for these functions to come in augment form?"

 

Also, less use of the word 'viable'. The problem isn't whether or not augments are viable, it's whether or not abilities are without them; you blur the distinction in your rules. Just calling something 'not viable' is a quick way to get written off, since someone somewhere has a maximum Power Strength build and boy howdy it works until Wave 40 on Kiliken.

 

You could also cover that simply because the augment provides a function the skill needs to scale, does not necessarily mean the augment needs to be baked into the skill. For example, giving Ice Wave a knockback (as in the OP of this thread) would give a scaling function that synergizes well with Frost's toolkit, which would then make the Ice Wave Impedance an excellent augment for the skill.

 

Not sure why you're mentioning Despoil at all, honestly. I understand that many players probably see it as a grey area, but I personally feel like it's an example of what I always imagined augments to be, a way to alter the function of a skill. Too bad it's on an ability that shouldn't exist.

 

Finally, perhaps it would be a good idea to use Fire Fright as a prime example of exactly what's wrong with augments. We as players know there's something innately wrong with it, but the fact that it is in the game at all shows that the flaw has gone right over the developers' heads and they need someone to spell it out to them.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Archwizard

[AlphaHorseman]

While true, you don't really go into why those traits were necessary for the abilities in the first place. It's one thing to say that Slash Dash should have a combo boost because he's hitting with his melee weapon, it's quite another to say that Slash Dash has no scaling ability or utility to it (which a combo boost would cover). You mention the lack of scaling function later in the post, but it comes off as an afterthought; you should get to that point immediately so there's no doubt as to what you're asking.

You should also cover exactly why a scaling function is necessary: if an ability is purely a damaging effect, then the damage will fall off and become less significant as level increases, and simply giving a stagger to every damage skill does not provide any sort of unique identity to a skill once reduced to it; in cases like Ice Wave, the function it does retain can also be overshadowed by the rest of the kit.

(It's funny how people accuse me of trying to give the same kit to everyone when Scott literally said "We'll add staggers to all of those abilities" on a devstream when posed with this question.)

You need to answer the question, "Why is it wrong for these functions to come in augment form?"

 

Also, less use of the word 'viable'. The problem isn't whether or not augments are viable, it's whether or not abilities are without them; you blur the distinction in your rules. Just calling something 'not viable' is a quick way to get written off, since someone somewhere has a maximum Power Strength build and boy howdy it works until Wave 40 on Kiliken.

 

You could also cover that simply because the augment provides a function the skill needs to scale, does not necessarily mean the augment needs to be baked into the skill. For example, giving Ice Wave a knockback (as in the OP of this thread) would give a scaling function that synergizes well with Frost's toolkit, which would then make the Ice Wave Impedance an excellent augment for the skill.

 

Not sure why you're mentioning Despoil at all, honestly. I understand that many players probably see it as a grey area, but I personally feel like it's an example of what I always imagined augments to be, a way to alter the function of a skill. Too bad it's on an ability that shouldn't exist.

 

Finally, perhaps it would be a good idea to use Fire Fright as a prime example of exactly what's wrong with augments. We as players know there's something innately wrong with it, but the fact that it is in the game at all shows that the flaw has gone right over the developers' heads and they need someone to spell it out to them.

You rock! Haha, this will help me frame my topic in a much better light! Thank you so much!

[Elydir]

Excalibur: passive that increase Reset timer on melee counter, or increased channeling damage, making excalibur a more viable melee frame. I feel this would effectively encourage a melee playstyle with excalibur, without giving him overpowering abilities. I'd like excalibur to live up to his name. Also, a rework to slashdash that allows directional control while moving.

 

Definitely the reset timer thing, it works much better with the slash dash augment. Maybe channeling stuff for Valkyr, since she can channel in Histeria?

[Nox-Lamina]

2 things. Love the rant about augments, you're spot on!

 

Second thing: If your Limbo fix were to be implemented tomorrow I'd actually pick up and enjoy using Limbo.  (He'd still need work IMO, but I'd at least have reason to pick him up.)