Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[StevesEvilTwin]

I don't think your changes to Nekros are enough, even within the scope of being conservative and respectful of the original design, I think there is still a lot that can be changed. Based on what I've seen from other games, a minion type necromancer by default requires some degree of micromanaging. So, I think that changing Nekros' abilities into something more along the line of Limbo's (requires minions/being in the rift at all times) would be the best option.

 

When it comes down to the very bare bones aspects of a necromancer's abilities, these are essential:

-summon minion (sotd)

-command minion

-weaken enemies (terrify, but not very effectively)

-heal minion/self

-an ability that drains the caster's own health (the despoil augment does this, but the original ability itself doesn't fit a necromancer)

 

Taking your suggestions above, I've modified them to fit the necromancer archetype more closely.

 

- Soul Punch separates the target’s soul from its body; when the main target is ragdolled, they temporarily leave their soul (an attackable, stationary after-image with linked health and reduced shields/armor) behind. If the target is killed by the initial damage or while the 'rip' effect is active, the remainder of the effect jumps to the nearest enemy. Defense reduction is affected by Power Strength, 'soul rip' uptime is affected by Power Duration. All shadows will focus aggression on the soul until it is dead. Enemies will rush within 10m of the soul and gain increased movement speed. This allows Nekros to command his minions to both go places and command them to focus down a heavy unit.

 

- Terrify no longer reduces targets' armor, but staggers all affected targets upon activation, and slows them for an amount based on rank. Applies a corrosive, magnetic, and viral proc to all afflicted enemies. Shadows and Nekros gain health by damaging afflicted enemies. Yep, this is basically a mass Well of Life but for Nekros and his minions only. The enemies are weakened however, to prevent Nekros from farming health off of one heavy unit.

--> In Dark Sectors/Conclave/Dojo, Terrify inverts enemy movement controls for a few seconds (as it cannot simulate AI change on players).

 

- Desecrate replaced with “Siphon Life”: Deals instant Viral damage to enemies in a cone in front of Nekros, then releases a pulse of radial healing from Nekros to allies (including minions and companions) based on accumulated damage dealt. High proc chance. Siphon Life instead siphons Nekros' own life for energy. Does not cost energy, costs 50 health, restores energy to Nekros, scaling with rank. This ability is main micromanaging part of Nekros. Much like how Limbo has to constantly keep track of the enemies in and out of the rift, Nekros has to keep his health and energy constantly in balance, so that he has enough energy to cast, but also doesn't kill himself.

-  Despoil replaced: Corpses in the area of Siphon Life have a X% chance to spawn health orbs. Augment also gives allies energy. I couldn't think of anything better for this, you can change it if you want but it should have a heavily team-based mechanic to make up for Nekros' overall lack of it.

 

- Shadows of the Dead's "Soul Cache" is based on mission-wide kills, not just the Nekros' killing blows. Recasting Shadows while active causes any surviving minions to be instantly called to your side. (See "AI overhaul" under General for further details.) Kills made by Shadows count as kills made by Nekros, for the purposes of affinity gains and challenges. Default duration is doubled. Recasting gives shadows a temporarily greater damage boost and overshields equivalent to Nekros' own shields.

 

 

With these changes in mind, Nekros should be summoning his minions as soon as he has killed a few enemies, and keeping them alive for the whole mission. He will use Soul Punch to summon his minions to key positions, use Terrify to sustain them while also increasing their damage, and use SoTD again to buff them even more. Sustaining all of these of course, comes at a price, Nekros has to hurt himself in order to get enough energy for all these abilities. Terrify costs a hefty 75 energy, while SoTD costs 100 energy, meaning that Nekros has to constantly use Siphon Life in order to keep his minions alive, and even to heal himself through Terrify. Now, hopefully Nekros will be able to storm through levels as commander of his own little army, and even complete missions without actually killing a single enemy himself, which is what a summoner should be doing. His abilities also have very little team benefit without augments, which generally fits the trope of necromancers being selfish and anti-social.

 

 

P.S. Have you seen these threads for Limbo?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/333877-limbo-rift-surge-rework-suggestion-v2/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/384318-limbo-rift-surge-replacement-plus-buffs/

Edited February 17, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Archwizard]

I don't think your changes to Nekros are enough, even within the scope of being conservative and respectful of the original design, I think there is still a lot that can be changed. Based on what I've seen from other games, a minion type necromancer by default requires some degree of micromanaging. So, I think that changing Nekros' abilities into something more along the line of Limbo's (requires minions/being in the rift at all times) would be the best option.

 

When it comes down to the very bare bones aspects of a necromancer's abilities, these are essential:

-summon minion (sotd)

-command minion

-weaken enemies (terrify, but not very effectively)

-heal minion/self

-an ability that drains the caster's own health (the despoil augment does this, but the original ability itself doesn't fit a necromancer)

 

The issue is, the perception that the minion-master is synonymous with micromanaging is the exact reason why many players are opposed to Nekros being reworked into such. Warframe is far too fast-paced of a game to simply sit around during the action, whether it's conducting an army or mopping up the corpses; it's one thing to give a class elements loosely inspired by Real Time Strategy (provided they work within the medium they're brought into), it's another to outright genre shift.

 

In addition, there's actually nothing that says the caster's own health need be used for any of their abilities. It's a common occurrence for black mages and the like to use health as a resource, but in no way a necessity. The list of staples, as I interpretted it, are:

- Minion raising and control

- Methods to support minion output (both in terms of damage and sustainability)

- Methods to increase personal survivability

By that (very loose) definition, Nekros could fit as he is now if you squint, which lends some credence to how he ended up the way he did in the first place. The issue is that his execution flopped, leading to some elements (loot) being emphasized while others (minions) were diluted into aesthetic gimmicks.

 

As a final note, extreme specialization such as this would be moot until you reached the max level of effectiveness with Shadows. Which you don't even pick up until level 10.

 

- Soul Punch separates the target’s soul from its body; when the main target is ragdolled, they temporarily leave their soul (an attackable, stationary after-image with linked health and reduced shields/armor) behind. If the target is killed by the initial damage or while the 'rip' effect is active, the remainder of the effect jumps to the nearest enemy. Defense reduction is affected by Power Strength, 'soul rip' uptime is affected by Power Duration. All shadows will focus aggression on the soul until it is dead. Enemies will rush within 10m of the soul and gain increased movement speed. This allows Nekros to command his minions to both go places and command them to focus down a heavy unit.

 

While the idea of Soul Punch being used to direct minions is a classic since Nekros' release, it's not necessarily the best one.

Why should you have to spend energy to direct your army? Why should you have to bother with Soul Punch's targeting for such a mundane utility?

I feel a much more on-the-fly system (such as the zoom-based selection) would be equally as rewarding in terms of output, while less frustrating to the player.

 

- Terrify no longer reduces targets' armor, but staggers all affected targets upon activation, and slows them for an amount based on rank. Applies a corrosive, magnetic, and viral proc to all afflicted enemies. Shadows and Nekros gain health by damaging afflicted enemies. Yep, this is basically a mass Well of Life but for Nekros and his minions only. The enemies are weakened however, to prevent Nekros from farming health off of one heavy unit.

 

No. I don't shy away from what many would consider the "extreme" solution, but that's too much. It's the main functions of Chaos, Well of Life and Molecular Prime (ESPECIALLY Molecular Prime) rolled into one, when Terrify should at its core just be a way to stop incoming damage for a little while.

 

- Desecrate replaced with “Siphon Life”: Deals instant Viral damage to enemies in a cone in front of Nekros, then releases a pulse of radial healing from Nekros to allies (including minions and companions) based on accumulated damage dealt. High proc chance. Siphon Life instead siphons Nekros' own life for energy. Does not cost energy, costs 50 health, restores energy to Nekros, scaling with rank. This ability is main micromanaging part of Nekros. Much like how Limbo has to constantly keep track of the enemies in and out of the rift, Nekros has to keep his health and energy constantly in balance, so that he has enough energy to cast, but also doesn't kill himself.

-  Despoil replaced: Corpses in the area of Siphon Life have a X% chance to spawn health orbs. Augment also gives allies energy. I couldn't think of anything better for this, you can change it if you want but it should have a heavily team-based mechanic to make up for Nekros' overall lack of it.

 

Why not just increase your health and add Rage for the same effect.

The point of removing Desecrate is to create less frustration for the player, not replace it with something equally as time-consuming and barely half as practical. Why complicate the minion-managing with another baseline resource?

[StevesEvilTwin]

Very well, if you are adamant that Nekros' balanced spot among the warframes is in the pit of mediocrity (by this I mean having powers that do a little bit of everything as opposed to promoting a focused specialized style of play, not that Excalibur etc. are bad frames) along with Excalibur, Volt, Saryn and Oberon, instead of being unique enough to occupy its own space outside the plane of power balance that most other Warframes are in, then I'll take your word for it. You seem to have been the most successful out of everyone who has made frame reworks so far.

 

Now, let's turn our attention to Zephyr. I thought a bit about your suggestions, and took a look at Volkovyi's original powers, and I think I've figured out a way to turn Zephyr into a true birdframe. Gale Force was originally supposed to lift Zephyr in the air, and essentially allow her to fly for a set duration while boosting her abilities. That seems completely different from the play style Zephyr we now have, but we need to think about why it is so important to be in the air: it's to avoid getting hit. And we have an ability that does that too, it's Turbulence. I think that it would help encourage players to use Zephyr's aerial finesse if it were merged into Turbulence, as Zephyr players pretty much have Turbulence on all the time anyway.

 

Looking at your new ability Typhoon, it appears to be Volkovyi's original Gust Kick, with mobility added into it. You went on to explain in detail why you wanted the ability to push Zephyr backwards instead of forwards, and I thought, why not expand that idea further? We make it just straight up push Zephyr away from whatever surface it is aimed at, also preserving and redirecting any momentum that Zephyr had originally. Essentially, I'm talking about turning Typhoon into a rocket jump. (Search TF2 Jump Movies to get an idea of what I'm talking about) Now players will be able to use Tail Wind to increase their momentum, and then preserve it by using Typhon to bounce across the level. Not only would this increase Zephyr's skill ceiling to the highest of any Warframe currently in the game, it would also make her the most mobile anything in the game, making up for aerial melee stealing some of her thunder. You might think that having two mobility abilities is redundant, but in actuality these two abilities work perfectly in tandem with each other. The reason is simple: you can't turn in the middle of Tail Wind, and you can't cast Typhoon in the air. Right now, if you want to circle back where you came from after a Tail Wind, you have to land, turn, and then use Tail Wind again, losing your momentum in the process. With the new Typhoon, you would blast yourself back away from the wall or floor, and keep your momentum, going faster than a Loki with max Rush under the effects of max strength Speed..

 

I also thought about giving Zephyr an offensive advantage against airborne enemies, so as to keep the feel of Gale Force making Zephyr a super powerful wind elemental. However, I wasn't sure whether to stick it onto the new Turbulence or not as it feels kind of awkward to have one ability do so many things. Ultimately I settled on adding the damage and CC to both Tail Wind and Typhoon, so that they would be useful for things other than mobility. This would also hopefully allow skilled to players to use Dive Bomb to knock enemies into the air, and then shoot them down like skeet with Typhoon.

 

Without further ado, here are my suggested additions for Zephyr's abilities:

 

Tail Wind: Knocks down and deals increased damage to airborne enemies. When used as Dive Bomb, enemies are ragdolled near vertically into the air, instead of being knocked down.

 

Typhoon: Deals greatly increased damage against airborne enemies (including those inside Tornado). When cast against a solid surface, Zephyr is pushed away as if an explosive detonated against the surface (the further away from the surface, the less push force you receive; casting at an angle will push you away at that angle). If Zephyr was airborne when the push force detonated, any of her momentum at the time of detonation is converted and added to the force of the the explosion.

 

Turbulence:

Thematically, it makes more sense for Turbulence to go back to greatly reducing enemy accuracy in a large area instead of reflecting bullets now. While Turbulence is active, Zephyr's personal gravity is reduced even more, and she gains increased movement speed and control while in the air (basically the same as Archwing if you were only capable of gliding downwards). When Zephyr is in the air while Turbulence is active, her priority is lowered, and enemies have their accuracy reduced even further if targeting Zephyr. Enemies that are ragdolled within the area of effect of Turbulence also experience the lowered gravity.

 

Tornado:

The rotation speed of enemies inside the Tornados is decreased so they would be easier to target.

Edited February 18, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[taiiat]

i haven't fully explored all of the features it could bring, it's just a basic thought at the moment, but if Contagion gave Saryn the capability for having 'release the plague' ala Swarm MOA, that would be great.

debuffing Enemies, buffing Allies, and spreading... well, like a plague. fits the theme very well.

and the best part, is i'd actually use the damn Ability then.

some things i have in mind...

is it being a self buff, which also helps fit the theme and reinforce what Saryn is all about.

the 'Swarms' would help out Allies as well. surely having some form of Armor Bonus since the Infested Swarms do that too, but wait! there's more.

Damage reduction for Allies, Slowing for Enemies, a little bit of all kinds of things.

really, the idea being, empowering Allies, and supressing Enemies.

so, what i see Contagion doing then. you cast it, this means Saryn is enveloped in a Swarm. anything that comes near becomes 'infected'. the Swarm will freely spread to anything, friendly or foe.

this buffs Allies, debuffs Enemies - and therefore fills some of that teamwork aspect that Saryn could use some more of.

Allies being empowered with bonus Damage (dear god this needs to be more than just Melee), Damage Resistance(lowish amount), an Armor Bonus, and perhaps a Sprint Speed increase (just Sprinting, thanks).

i know what you're saying, why Damage Resistance and Armor? both help different Warframes in a different manner. so a lowish Damage Reduction factor, and a moderate Armor Bonus. this helps ensure that less durable Warframes do still get something out of the Ability in this regard, and allowing more durable ones to capitalize on it.

Enemies being supressed with a movement speed reduction (a moderate speed reduction), left in a weakened state (Armor debuff, as well as taking increased Damage from all sources - both being a moderate amount), a moderate DoT (thinking Slash Damage with a moderate Status Chance that can create either Slash or Gas Effects(either meaning flip a coin on Status Effect as to which it chooses, capable of both)), and an Accuracy Debuff.

this should result in an Ability that has 'a little of everything'. i'm highly considering it being something of a Toggle Ability, draining at a flat number regardless of the Enemies affected due to the plague-like nature. perhaps a drain of 5E per second.

spreading Range would be shortish. enough so that you don't need to hug your Allies or Enemies, but not exactly a long Range. therefore requiring Saryn to get fairly close to the Enemies to use the Ability effectively - as well as Enemies needing to be fairly close to each other to spread between each other. also allowing other Warframes with the capability of grouping Enemies to synergize with this Ability.

since all of the effects of the Ability are not highly powerful to start with, having all of them being affected by Mods is just fine.

[Archwizard]

Very well, if you are adamant that Nekros' balanced spot among the warframes is in the pit of mediocrity (by this I mean having powers that do a little bit of everything as opposed to promoting a focused specialized style of play, not that Excalibur etc. are bad frames) along with Excalibur, Volt, Saryn and Oberon, instead of being unique enough to occupy its own space outside the plane of power balance that most other Warframes are in, then I'll take your word for it. You seem to have been the most successful out of everyone who has made frame reworks so far.

 

Wow, really laying it on thick there. Initially couldn't tell if that "pit of mediocrity" crack was a thinly-veiled insult or poorly-phrased agreement. Judging by the tone of your edit, it seems you never thought the two mutually exclusive.

 

I think you mistake versatility for lack of focus though.

 

Consider Loki: I don't think anybody could even say what his kit is, because it's basically all over the place. However, he's indisputably the best-designed Warframe in the game; that no space in his kit is wasted on redundancy allows him to adapt to a number of dynamic scenarios, while he loses no function to scaling either.

The beauty of Warframe's design is that each Warframe is capable of taking on multiple functions, and can be modded for more or less. Trinity, for instance, can be either a tank or a support without needing to focus or lose any functionality in either one, while Mag can be just as damaging as she is supportive without ever having to trade off her control. Presently Nekros' design encourages most players to just spam Desecrate, while explicitly pidgeonholing him into minion-raising would be little better; if you're going to remove a role from his arsenal, at least give players another (the lack therein was why players were mad after Ember 2.0...).

 

Just because not all of Nekros' skills would have explicit overlap in the OP does not mean he loses any functionality; the powers would still combine well to reach the same conclusion. Soul Punch and Siphon Life to build the soul cache, Siphon Life and Terrify to keep himself and his allies (both living and risen) alive, all three to give his minions a field day, cycling into being able to cast Shadows again. He's plenty unique - every one of his skills (save for maybe Terrify) would actually be pretty unique for what Warframe has to offer, if you can believe it, and Nekros would be the first frame who legitimately scales well with Power Strength. (As in, doesn't just Max Power Strength for ult-spam against level 40s.)

Flat damage or no, dealing (as an example) 200 damage each to a half dozen enemies and healing for every point is gonna insta-cap your health every time. 

 

... Although... your post does revive an interest in seeing Nekros gain a higher energy pool at the cost of lower shields.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Archwizard

[ZearingGaming]

+1

[Elydir]

i haven't fully explored all of the features it could bring, it's just a basic thought at the moment, but if Contagion gave Saryn the capability for having 'release the plague' ala Swarm MOA, that would be great.

debuffing Enemies, buffing Allies, and spreading... well, like a plague. fits the theme very well.

 

Could that work with Allure though? Lik, give some temporary protection to allies in range and a high proc chance.

[taiiat]

Could that work with Allure though? Like, give some temporary protection to allies in range and a high proc chance.

i think having Saryn have her own 'Infested Swarms' fits the theme better than something vaguely based off of Overheat.

'Allure' is nice as well (and i'm sure i've expressed my interest in it on previous pages of the thread), but i think Infested Swarms fits the theme better as well as providing some of everything so that it's always useful.

Edited February 19, 2015 by taiiat

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

It's an interesting idea. Swap the Contagion effect to Viral damage (befitting the name), make Venom deal Gas damage instead (wherein popping a pod would inflict the status and add additional pods to pop, bringing back some of the original Venom flavor).

 

The question is, don't you think it does WAY too much? You're suggesting accuracy, armor and movement reduction to enemies and damage, speed, mitigation and armor buffs to allies, on top of incidental damage to enemies from the raw effect. And it spreads.

That's ((Molecular Prime * periodic damage + Total Eclipse / lighting conditions + Jet Stream + Warcry * self-spread) - (deflection + projectile speed + attack speed)). It's one thing to make an ability you'll use often, but it's another to make an ability that's almost literally every ability.

 

something vaguely based off of Overheat.

 

Oh no, blatantly. "Vaguely" would be effects like Eclipse and Shatter Shield; I make no secret of my belief that raw Overheat fits better in Saryn's hands.

 

But I'm not entirely certain it fits her theme, really. From what we can tell with Saryn, all of her abilities are based off of volatile biochemical compounds; nanites like the Swarm Moa's are a serious stretch, in no small part because they're a corruption of Corpus technology rather than an extension of Infested physiology.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Archwizard

[StevesEvilTwin]

So what do you think of bounce as an ability? I can see how they might have intended it to function as a barrier, but then were afraid of trolling (not that that's stopped it from being used as such), so they changed it to a contact based movement trap, but also ended up making it completely useless against flying enemies. However, I think there's a way to make it usable as originally intended and as a mobility tool now that we had the whole Limbo deal to figure out how to counter trolling.

 

So, Vauban's an engineer right? Then why don't we make him build bridges? The bridges will take the forum of a square prism of solid light (approximate side length of 2 m) that extends out from Vauban's feet and up to as far away as Power Range allows. The bridge will extend towards any direction that Vauban points at, which means that Vauban can also use them as ramps if pointed diagonally, or as pillars to perch on if aimed straight up. The bridges can block enemy units, bullets, and explosions (the attacks will hit players "inside" the bridge however to prevent exploitation) so Vauban can also use them as barricades, but will only block players' attacks. Players can walk through the bridge while crouched or sliding, so there's no trolling. When the bridge is cast, all enemies in the space that the bridge will occupy will be ragdolled away and dealt light damage. Vauban can create up to 2 bridges by default.

 

What do you think of the bridge ability? Or do you think that Bounce is fine right now?

[taiiat]

The question is, don't you think it does WAY too much?

It's one thing to make an ability you'll use often, but it's another to make an ability that's almost literally every ability.

But I'm not entirely certain it fits her theme, really. From what we can tell with Saryn, all of her abilities are based off of volatile biochemical compounds; nanites like the Swarm Moa's are a serious stretch, in no small part because they're a corruption of Corpus technology rather than an extension of Infested physiology.

the point, was that it would have a bit of everything. no single thing would be superb, but it would be flexible.

so it would indeed have a lot of layers to it, but most humans are fond of layered pastries, right? each layer on it's own isn't that great, but all together it's much tastier.

it lets it be useful in most of the situations you might be in. elsewise, it's possible to end up with something that's so niche that you end up generally not using it.

Saryn clearly has some control over organic ailments ala Venom and probably Molt (Miasma is plausible as well). i wasn't necessarily suggesting that it needs to be exactly like a Swarm MOA, that was what spurred the idea.

[Elydir]

the point, was that it would have a bit of everything. no single thing would be superb, but it would be flexible.

so it would indeed have a lot of layers to it, but most humans are fond of layered pastries, right? each layer on it's own isn't that great, but all together it's much tastier.

it lets it be useful in most of the situations you might be in. elsewise, it's possible to end up with something that's so niche that you end up generally not using it.

 

I think I'd still rather use something thats great at one or two common things over something thats mediocre at 7 or 8 situational ones.

 

Things like Contagion and Rift Walk are already boring stat boosts I forget to keep up as it is.

[taiiat]

I think I'd still rather use something thats great at one or two common things over something thats mediocre at 7 or 8 situational ones.

it wouldn't be meh at a bunch of things, it would be somewehat useful at a bunch of things. they aren't situational though, they're always useful.

Warframe isn't a game played in a vacuum. there's a lot of things that you may want, or whatever.

Stomp is an Ability that does just one thing fairly well, so does that mean that you'd always greatly desire it in the game? probably not.

if an Ability is useful, but flexible, then you will be using it far more.

[AlphaHorseman]

Well with the DevStream over we all now know that Mag's Crush is getting some much deserved buffs, ah it'll now be a very useful tool! 3 damage instances and a CC Ragdoll/Stun at the end! Hooray!

 

I'm hoping Scott gives the same treatment to Frost's Avalanche.

[XToxinator]

Well with the DevStream over we all now know that Mag's Crush is getting some much deserved buffs, ah it'll now be a very useful tool! 3 damage instances and a CC Ragdoll/Stun at the end! Hooray!

 

I'm hoping Scott gives the same treatment to Frost's Avalanche.

Me too!

[StevesEvilTwin]

Well, sorry to bombard you with ideas once again, but I just had to say this about Limbo's Rift Surge. I think he's almost perfect (on Loki level) with the exception of this one ability.

 

There have been suggestions on making Rift Surge a sort of reset nuke (as I linked in my previous post), dealing heavy damage and emptying the rift. I don't think this is necesary now however, as Cataclysm can be disabled, which was the main reason why such a change was suggested. Apart from Cataclysm, there aren't really going to be so many enemies that Limbo can't deal with them considering that he can only banish them one at a time, meaning that a nuke affecting only enemies in the Rift is going to require tedious setup in getting the enemies in the rift before hand, running counterintuitive to Warframe's play style. Additionally, giving Limbo a damage nuke seems as out of place as giving one to Loki (*cough* Radial Disarm vs Infested *cough*). But it is clear that as a plain damage boost, Rift Surge is not enough.

 

The rift is Limbo's domain, he should be all powerful there. Enemies should feel completely helpless against him, and his abilities should be extended to that of near godhood, as many players agree. His dominance over the rift should be undisputed, and even his allies will fear him as all of the suppressed megalomaniacal dreams of that weird kid in the corner of the classroom are realized. He should be able to manipulate reality itself to his will. None of his abilities give that feel as of now, but Rift Surge would be a perfect fit.

 

I think that Rift Surge should still remain a buffing ability, and grant additional bonuses such as run speed, reload speed, and jump height to allies along with the damage boost. Limbo himself however, should get special bonuses. As I said before, Limbo should be able to manipulate reality itself inside the rift to his benefit. First of all, he would drive all of his enemies mad as everything their minds are familiar with falls apart. Enemies would have movement speed and accuracy reduced while also having their senses dulled (completely deaf and field of vision sharply reduced in both width and length) whenever Limbo has a line of sight to them. Limbo will be able to manipulate gravity, letting enemies float up into the air and making them immobile whenever he jumps. Likewise, when Limbo crouches, enemies are slammed into the ground by suddenly increased gravity, reducing their movement speed to a crawl. Next up, the electromagnetic force, any spot that Limbo points at while reloading repels enemies via ragdolling, while any spot that Limbo attacks at pulls enemies towards it. The third force, is the weak nuclear force, all substances around Limbo while he is channeling lose the atomic bonds holding them together and start emitting radiation, dealing a weak DoT. Furthermore, they also start forming extremely volatile compounds, rendering enemy equipment (grenades and eximus powers) useless, while inflicting random physical and elemental procs with the DoT. Finally, Limbo disables the strong nuclear force, causing everything that touches him to fall apart on a quantum level, crashing the game and bluescreening your computer.

 

I also thought of some ability augments that take advantage of Limbo's reality manipulating powers.

 

Entagled Banish: When an enemy is banished, it is linked to another enemy outside the rift, and everything (damage, procs, knockdown, ragdoll) done to one will be done to the other. When an ally is banished, their energy pool (and regen) is shared with Limbo's, making the total energy pool the sum of that of all the players in the rift and Limbo's, while all players also drain energy from the same pool. This means that you absolutely should only use Entangled Banish on players you trust as they can troll you just as well as you can troll them.

 

Schrodinger's Surge: When Rift Surge is active, a radial pulse of energy is emitted from Limbo every second, toggling enemies between life and death. All enemies in range of the radial pulse either have their health and shields restored to full, or depleted to 1.

 

Causality Cataclysm: Within Cataclysm, Limbo reverses time itself. The event horizon prevents enemies from both exiting and entering the Cataclysm, even if the enemies are in the rift. Within the Cataclysm, everything is reversed and friendly fire is turned on. All damage dealt to both players and enemies instead heals for the base damage. All healing instead deals damage. (watch out for Trinity trolls) Ammo is gained by reloading. Shields constantly drain until they are depleted. Any hits made while channeling intead restore energy. Rage and Quick Thinking have their functions reversed.

 

 

Hope you consider it.

Edited February 22, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Archwizard]

-Booben snip-

 

Short version is, I think Bounce was intended as a way to direct enemies (why else make a Super Jump they can activate) - a way to create restricted areas, while Vortex pulls them toward an area and Bastille holds them there.

At least, they would be in theory, if they weren't all outdone by Vortex.

Trouble is, the Bastille augment basically obsoletes Bounce for this purpose (no finite number of charges for the same effect). Having it be any sort of mobility tool is obsoleted by aerial attacks.

 

I don't feel the bridging skill fits Vauban though. He does all of his effects through grenades and traps, which your Portal-esque light bridge wouldn't do. He's intended to be a trapper as much as an engineer, which the bridge also couldn't do.

 

Having an ability that physically shapes the battlefield would be awesome, but I think that's a gimmick for another frame.

 

-Limbo snip-

 

I suspect the reason why DE went with the convoluted "Rift Plane" mechanic instead of just giving him intangibility is because they explicitly wanted him not to have godmode (given their effort to strip it from Trinity, Nyx, Rhino, etc), which is what you're saying the Rift should be turned into.

 

Personally, I feel that if they went so far as to make Rift Surge and Rift Walk so similar in duration (and limited Rift Surge to when Rift Walk or Cataclysm are active anyway), the two could stand to be merged into one another - I just haven't thought of something that could replace it. I agree that having Limbo manipulate reality on some level within the Rift could be an interesting fit.

 

Entangled Banish could be interesting. Schrodinger's Surge is too powerful. Causalty Cataclysm would be a nightmare to both players and enemies; trolling with Cataclysm is something we're trying to avoid.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Archwizard

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I've been doing some more experimenting, and I'm happy to say I now have exact numbers on just how bulls*** Turbulence's mechanics v.s. hitscan weapons actually are!

 

Warframe builder lists Turbulence's outer radius for my Zephyr build at 35.5m. I decided to test that. I placed a waypoint on a level 30 Grineer elite lancer, moved 5m away from him, and continuously backed up 1m at a time. At about 15m and onwards, I was being hit by every single one of his shots.

 

Turbulence's outer radius: 35.5m

 

Actual effective range: about 15m

 

On top of all the bulls*** that revolves around Turbulence's mechanics, I have proof that enemy accuracy actually overpowers Turbulence's debuff, making it nearly worthless against all hitscan weapons.

 

I submitted a bug report and added these statistics to my Turbulence thread, but not a single person looked at either of them.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

The trouble with the outer-radius mechanic is that it reduces their accuracy, but doesn't elaborate on how.

 

A recent dev workshop detailed how enemy accuracy is supposed to work - enemies become extremely accurate at a specific range, then dip off at given rates prior to and after that point. It's entirely possible that your backing off actually improved the Elite Lancer's accuracy, by stepping into its optimal range.

 

Since Turbulence doesn't say precisely what it does, it may only affect the range at which enemies are accurate without actually affecting their accuracy; or, you stepped into an area where they have 90% accuracy and the reduction only brings it down by a minor amount. In either case, it would work precisely as the devs intended it to - it's just badly designed.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

The trouble with the outer-radius mechanic is that it reduces their accuracy, but doesn't elaborate on how.

QFT

that is what we know about Turbulence. doing testing on it is prohibitively difficult because we don't know how it does what it says it does, and ruling out margin of error is nigh impossible.

therefore, jumping to conclusions and deciding what Turbulence really does for RayTrace Weapons is vague at best.

we don't really have a lick of definite information about the Ability. however, if Turbulence vs RayTrace Weapons can feel wrong (i.e. almost entirely ineffective), that is something that can be identified that something might be wrong.

(Edit: that being said, i'm not really a fan of any of the Invulnerability Abilities we have in the game, there's no call for them. yeah yeah, some of them don't block all possible sources of Damage, but they're still generally invulnerability to one or another mechanic, making you invulnerable to about 50% of the Enemies attacking you).

Edited February 23, 2015 by taiiat

[RealPandemonium]

QFT

that is what we know about Turbulence. doing testing on it is prohibitively difficult because we don't know how it does what it says it does, and ruling out margin of error is nigh impossible.

therefore, jumping to conclusions and deciding what Turbulence really does for RayTrace Weapons is vague at best.

we don't really have a lick of definite information about the Ability. however, if Turbulence vs RayTrace Weapons can feel wrong (i.e. almost entirely ineffective), that is something that can be identified that something might be wrong.

(Edit: that being said, i'm not really a fan of any of the Invulnerability Abilities we have in the game, there's no call for them. yeah yeah, some of them don't block all possible sources of Damage, but they're still generally invulnerability to one or another mechanic, making you invulnerable to about 50% of the Enemies attacking you).

It's pretty observable that when it works, enemies are extremely unlikely if not unable to hit you.  In its current incarnation it has no effect beyond 15 meters.  There is little dispute about these observations.  

[taiiat]

It's pretty observable that when it works, enemies are extremely unlikely if not unable to hit you.

In its current incarnation it has no effect beyond 15 meters.

whether that's actually true or not (as with most things i hear from Players, it's often only true in certain circumstances, rather than all of them like people say with their blanket statements - i'll evaluate against a variety of Enemy Types in the morning) - the point remains that we don't even know what the Ability really does.

it makes it very difficult for the Community to help, because we don't really know what's going on. :|

[RealPandemonium]

whether that's actually true or not (as with most things i hear from Players, it's often only true in certain circumstances, rather than all of them like people say with their blanket statements - i'll evaluate against a variety of Enemy Types in the morning) - the point remains that we don't even know what the Ability really does.

it makes it very difficult for the Community to help, because we don't really know what's going on. :|

To clarify, I was talking about its behavior vs hitscan weapons and not projectiles.  I'm pretty certain that your findings will support our claims.  

[(XBOX)SkinnyANOINTED1]

I would like to see Excalibur's third ability become two fold to help make him a better Sword frame. I call this idea adrenaline. First, super jump costs 10 energy to use when you tap the button. If you hold the button down for 1 second (on the ground or after you jump) adrenaline kicks in (and costs 65 more energy). Excalibur receives a 5/10/15/20% melee speed increase (fixed) for 5/6/7/8 seconds (affected by duration mods). Excalibur also has unlimited stamina and no channelling cost for the duration.

[Archwizard]

I would like to see Excalibur's third ability become two fold to help make him a better Sword frame. I call this idea adrenaline. First, super jump costs 10 energy to use when you tap the button. If you hold the button down for 1 second (on the ground or after you jump) adrenaline kicks in (and costs 65 more energy). Excalibur receives a 5/10/15/20% melee speed increase (fixed) for 5/6/7/8 seconds (affected by duration mods). Excalibur also has unlimited stamina and no channelling cost for the duration.

 

Not sure - if you're gonna hold the button, it should increase the immediate effect; could come off as a penalty if you hold the button for a second longer than you meant to and spent 7x the energy.

Could be interesting as a toggle though.