Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

Well with the DevStream over we all now know that Mag's Crush is getting some much deserved buffs, ah it'll now be a very useful tool! 3 damage instances and a CC Ragdoll/Stun at the end! Hooray!

 

I'm hoping Scott gives the same treatment to Frost's Avalanche.

Me too!

 

But Avalanche deals more damage baseline, is relatively quick, and only has 2 animation beats.

 

I dont think that treatment will help Avalanche much. I dont even think the damage buff will help Crush much.

[taiiat]

But Avalanche deals more damage baseline, is relatively quick, and only has 2 animation beats.

 

I dont think that treatment will help Avalanche much. I dont even think the damage buff will help Crush much.

Avalanche's shortcomings as of currently, mainly reside in that it does nothing other than Damage.

meaning it's useless.

i also think both the first and second (current) versions of the Abilities's visuals look absolutely gross and... not good.

the current one even looks significantly lower quality than the rest of the game, which disrupts the visual consistency.

[Archwizard]

You might think that having two mobility abilities is redundant, but in actuality these two abilities work perfectly in tandem with each other. The reason is simple: you can't turn in the middle of Tail Wind, and you can't cast Typhoon in the air. 

 

That would ruin the entire point of Typhoon - it has a projectile effect to reward you for using it to rain down fire (or hurricane-force winds, anyway) on enemies.

 

Turbulence:

Thematically, it makes more sense for Turbulence to go back to greatly reducing enemy accuracy in a large area instead of reflecting bullets now. While Turbulence is active, Zephyr's personal gravity is reduced even more, and she gains increased movement speed and control while in the air (basically the same as Archwing if you were only capable of gliding downwards). When Zephyr is in the air while Turbulence is active, her priority is lowered, and enemies have their accuracy reduced even further if targeting Zephyr. Enemies that are ragdolled within the area of effect of Turbulence also experience the lowered gravity.

 

Except that the accuracy reduction has a range limit (it's a debuff on enemies that follows Zephyr, like Silence), meaning you can't use it to air-snipe. Further, 4G3NT_0R4NG3 has already commented on the accuracy reduction's (in)effectiveness.

Again, part of the issue with Zephyr is that there was more focus on her mobility than what she does once she's in the air.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Archwizard

[StevesEvilTwin]

That would ruin the entire point of Typhoon - it has a projectile effect to reward you for using it to rain down fire (or hurricane-force winds, anyway) on enemies.

 

 

Except that the accuracy reduction has a range limit (it's a debuff on enemies that follows Zephyr, like Silence), meaning you can't use it to air-snipe. Further, 4G3NT_0R4NG3 has already commented on the accuracy reduction's (in)effectiveness.

Again, part of the issue with Zephyr is that there was more focus on her mobility than what she does once she's in the air.

I never said to remove the projectile effect of Typhoon. It's a rocket jump, which means that it still shoots a rocket which in fact deals heavily increased damage to airborne enemies.

 

I realize after reading some of the other players' research into Turbulence that accuracy reduction might not be the way to go. The intention was that Turbulence allow Zephyr to both avoid damage from enemies by being in the air (somehow, even though enemies have perfect aim), and be able to bring enemies into the air with her (either with Tornado or using Divebomb's new ragdoll effect) so as to deal more damage to them with Typhoon's rocket (Typhoon should be as powerful as Antimatter Drop on airborne enemies). It's basically an attempt at bringing back Gale Force on less OP terms.

Edited February 26, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Pbrandon1]

Looking from an old Pre-Alpha trailer, I saw an ability that Excalibur performed but never seemed to get incorporated into the main game.

 

It would be fantastic to see this replace his third ability but do a bit more so it doesn't seem like it is just radial blind but knocking down enemies instead of blinding. Possibly make it cause damage if enemies are smashed into walls and objects, and extra damage is added the closer the object is to them when activated and damage fall off as the distance is further due to losing speed. Also, if the enemy happens to knock it an enemy, that enemy gets knocked down and damage is done to both of them.

 

Have strength mods either increase speed at which enemies are thrown into objects or enemies or have into increase damage done when the enemy hits objects.

 

Range will just increase the range it affects enemies and Duration will probably increase how long the enemy is knocked down or something.

 

Lastly, honestly it looks like it wouldn't be hard to implement as it seems like it uses the same ground slam the Moa's use. Only thing that would needed to be added is animation and aura that surrounds him, but hey, what do I know about animation or coding.

 

Call it: Aerial Collapse or something.

 

This came from here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_1FveRn_8.

 

Also,

 

Slash Dash could become a great ability if they just had it knockdown enemies that happens to come into contact with it just like it shows for Excalibur in his codex. That would at-least make up for it having damage fall off.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Pbrandon1

[AlphaHorseman]

Avalanche's shortcomings as of currently, mainly reside in that it does nothing other than Damage.

meaning it's useless.

i also think both the first and second (current) versions of the Abilities's visuals look absolutely gross and... not good.

the current one even looks significantly lower quality than the rest of the game, which disrupts the visual consistency.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[taiiat]

I'm pretty certain that your findings will support our claims.

i totally didn't forget to evaluate Turbulence.

Turbulence is too effective against Weapons with Ballistic Trajectories. it's an instant gg.

it's inconsistent against RayTrace Weapons. sometimes it's godmode, sometimes it doesn't seem to reduce the number of incoming shots at all.

there's how it is.

i just spent 20 minutes of letting Grineer with various Weapons shooting at me.

inconsistent.

it's probably placebo effect but when a lot of Enemies were firing at once, it seemed to 'saturate', making it easier for shots to hit me.

but small groups of Enemies, generally made them highly inaccurate.

still, inconsistent. even single Enemies sometimes hit Accurately (as if not being affected at all), and other times missing completely.

the Range an Enemy was from me didn't make any difference whatsoever. when Enemies were hitting or not, going from point blank all the way to one or more Tiles away - didn't change results at all.

- - - - - - - - - -

so Turbulence should probably be consistently effective against all Ranged Weapons, but never be godmode.

so you'd reduce the incoming Ranged Fire... basically, almost entirely.

like, say, reducing incoming Ranged Fire by 90-95%. you still get hit from time to time, but it makes a huge difference.

Edited February 27, 2015 by taiiat

[(XBOX)ShygalSadie]

Archwizard, as a nova player who loves staggering oppenents to use finishers, i approve greatly

[Archwizard]

Avalanche's shortcomings as of currently, mainly reside in that it does nothing other than Damage.

meaning it's useless.

i also think both the first and second (current) versions of the Abilities's visuals look absolutely gross and... not good.

the current one even looks significantly lower quality than the rest of the game, which disrupts the visual consistency.

 

Well see, the way the developers explained the Mag change, it seemed like the point of it was that it would seek out new targets to hit every animation beat. I'm not even certain there was mention that it would hit three times, just that it would find targets three times.

 

I think the point Annon5150 was trying to make was that this would be a less effective treatment on Avalanche, since there's a shorter time between target selection and execution anyway. The "after-cast CC", however, would be an excellent touch - but once again, that's just returning something Mag already had that was taken away in Damage 2.0.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Archwizard

[BarneyD2]

I'm not entirely sure about Ember's Fire Blast anymore; OP's suggestions to me seem sound but having the eximus effect attached to an augment mod may limit utility – especially since accelerant is cheaper to cast and is affected by power range (and even if it weren't, it would still have a higher base range at 25m compared to Fire Blast's 15m).

 

The panic augment may be very good if after the initial knockdown and after enemies got back up that they only THEN start run and panic, but so far they don't seem to have synergy. I think Fire Blast should be affected by power range, then I might have a reason to use it over accelerant since accelerant also is unaffected by LoS.

[RealPandemonium]

I'm not entirely sure about Ember's Fire Blast anymore; OP's suggestions to me seem sound but having the eximus effect attached to an augment mod may limit utility – especially since accelerant is cheaper to cast and is affected by power range (and even if it weren't, it would still have a higher base range at 25m compared to Fire Blast's 15m).

 

The panic augment may be very good if after the initial knockdown and after enemies got back up that they only THEN start run and panic, but so far they don't seem to have synergy. I think Fire Blast should be affected by power range, then I might have a reason to use it over accelerant since accelerant also is unaffected by LoS.

The eximus fire blast was always a hare-brained idea that was parroted like crazy on the forums by people who don't play Ember.  Putting it on an augment and making Fire Blast a supportive ability that boosts Ember's other powers (in addition to how it behaved pre-blast) would be a good move.  

[Archwizard]

Decided to bump Mesa down from a full section in the OP, since her priority is relatively low compared to the others up there.

 

The eximus fire blast was always a hare-brained idea that was parroted like crazy on the forums by people who don't play Ember.  Putting it on an augment and making Fire Blast a supportive ability that boosts Ember's other powers (in addition to how it behaved pre-blast) would be a good move.  

 

You can understand where they were coming from, though. At the time, Fire Blast's main purpose was to cherry-tap opponents to death by spamming the effect, which didn't give it an identity away from her other skills. The Eximus effect allows you to create breathing room with the ability, giving you a stronger CC in case you need to reload or revive an ally. The problem is that the implementation of the new method completely erases the old one. Swapping the augment and buffed effect would give Ember something of a point-blank, damaging Bastille which - while the developers were probably aware of this fact and openly defied it - is a much better situation than what she has now.

[RealPandemonium]

Decided to bump Mesa down from a full section in the OP, since her priority is relatively low compared to the others up there.

 

 

You can understand where they were coming from, though. At the time, Fire Blast's main purpose was to cherry-tap opponents to death by spamming the effect, which didn't give it an identity away from her other skills. The Eximus effect allows you to create breathing room with the ability, giving you a stronger CC in case you need to reload or revive an ally. The problem is that the implementation of the new method completely erases the old one. Swapping the augment and buffed effect would give Ember something of a point-blank, damaging Bastille which - while the developers were probably aware of this fact and openly defied it - is a much better situation than what she has now.

Agreed, especially when Accelerant spam does the job more reliably in terms of cc. 

[Elydir]

Avalanche's shortcomings as of currently, mainly reside in that it does nothing other than Damage.

meaning it's useless.

 

Right, but the only new thing we know about the Crush rework is how it affects damage.

 

I never said to remove the projectile effect of Typhoon. It's a rocket jump, which means that it still shoots a rocket which in fact deals heavily increased damage to airborne enemies.

 

You said Zephyr wouldnt use it in the air. Arch explained that you should be able to cast it in the air as the benefit for being above targets.

[taiiat]

Right, but the only new thing we know about the Crush rework is how it affects damage.

if it gets it's original CC Effect back, or some new CC Effect (hopefully one that's useful and looks cool), then Crush will be good.

if it doesn't, then it's still useless.

same deal for Avalanche. and any other Ability that is centralized around Damage.

if press button get Damage is all it does, it's terrible.

[Archwizard]

if it gets it's original CC Effect back, or some new CC Effect (hopefully one that's useful and looks cool), then Crush will be good.

if it doesn't, then it's still useless.

same deal for Avalanche. and any other Ability that is centralized around Damage.

if press button get Damage is all it does, it's terrible.

 

Of course, the issue I think we're forgetting, is what happens when every ultimate is just damage and a radial CC?

 

Rhino Stomp, Absorb and Radial Javelin got buffs to that effect. World on Fire got a status buff, Radial Disarm now deals damage on top of its effect. Soon Crush will ragdoll foes again. People are begging for Avalanche to get a look as a mass-freeze, and I'm sure Overload's method of status application will follow too.

Banshee, Vauban, and everyone between Valkyr and Mesa already qualifies.

 

That's... what, 7 exceptions? And the only reason Saryn's not up there is because most people reduce her duration.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Archwizard

[RealPandemonium]

That's... what, 7 exceptions? And the only reason Saryn's not up there is because most people reduce her duration.

Saryn's 4 applies an Accelerant-like stagger that is independent of duration mods.  The stagger has the same efficacy regardless of her duration stat.

[Archwizard]

Saryn's 4 applies an Accelerant-like stagger that is independent of duration mods.  The stagger has the same efficacy regardless of her duration stat.

 

So, 6 exceptions then.

Out of 22.

Ash, Mesa, Nekros, Nova, Trinity, Valkyr.

 

Not sure which to be more offended by: The fact that Scott's gone on record to say his only idea for ult scaling is mass stuns, or the fact that people complain Nekros has no originality outside of Desecrate in spite of being one of the exceptions.

[taiiat]

or the fact that people complain Nekros has no originality outside of Desecrate in spite of being one of the exceptions.

well, being unique is important, but there are some basic things that you absolutely have to have.

Crush is a good example in this, since it's CC Effect was broken, if you casted Crush and you weren't either invulnerable or hiding in some glitchy spot of the map, if it didn't Kill everything around you, since it's classified as some big drawn out Ability that goes slowly for 'dramatic effect' - you'll actually hurt yourself, as Enemies get free shots on you.

so in lieu of that example, there are basic things that Warframes need to have access to. being able to use Abilities without having to hide the next room over with their face smashed in a corner (which is basically AFKfarming) is important to helping Players not feel like they are being constrained to some boring ways to overcome the Enemies.

'has a stun' can't be a unique thing because of this, 'dramatic effect' Abilities just need to have some sort of atleast minor CC like that as otherwise it's actually worse to cast the Ability than it is to not.

what we can do, instead, is make Abilities have Synergy and work together. a basic stun of sorts can't be a unique feature, but that doesn't mean that Abilities can't be unique. giving them unique mechanics, not just unique features.

sort've like how Stomp 'freezes' Enemies for 8 seconds in the air, which is more than a basic stun. it comes with it's advantages and detriments, can't recast while it's in play, and Enemies flip over backwards which means the Heads of most Enemies can't be hit without repositioning. but it also hits all Enemies in a very large area.

this contrasts with Sound Quake, which locks all Enemies in range in place. they still move a tiny bit, but spend 99% of the time either Blast knocked down or stagger chained.

and this further contrasts with World on Fire, which has a smallish area of instant stun, to keep Enemies from dicing you up even if you're casting it while flying through the air. this is a minor Stun though, it's just enough to keep off the heat while you're casting it, but Enemies are released shortly after. since the Ability is about dealing Damage primarily, it's less of a stun than the others.

contrasting with Absorb, which knocks down Enemies in Range, however if you spam it, it only Knocks them down and nothing else (we're assuming medium Level Enemies where it stops room nuking from the base Damage). the Knockdown can be useful, but it's equally or more useful to attract attention, build up Damage for a bit, and Kill them.

used in a different manner than the others.

heavily contrasting with Peacemaker, it deals a lot of Damage, but it has no (reliable) Stunning whatsoever. this would be because it deals a lot of Damage, presumably.

Et Cetera.

in say, Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, all Abilities shared the same 4 Combo Explosions.

each Ability functioned under unique mechanics though, despite sharing the same teamwork combo's.

CC Effects not being a selling feature isn't a problem. in games designed like this, which includes Warframe, it's just really par for the course. it's something that every Warframe needs to have atleast one flavor of, preferably atleast two.

[StevesEvilTwin]

First of all, I would like to explain the design behind my suggestions for Zephyr a few pages ago. I intended for her abilities to have the same kind of synergy that Volkovyi's Gale Force provided, meaning that all of her abilities could be amplified by another one. Instead of the amplification coming from the ultimate however, I decided to put it on Turbulence, since most Zephyr players have it up all the time anyway. Turbulence would give her both a survivability boost, and also act as a catalyst for her other abilities by lowering gravity around her. Tail Wind and Typhoon (when cast towards the environment) would still be used as mobility abilities, and allow her to get high up in the air (so that she can get a further defenseive boost), which she can stay for a while in due to ther personal gravity being reduced to the point where she can basically hover. Under the effects of lowered gravity, Dive Bomb's ragdoll (and ragdolls from melee weapons) would almost act like a mini Rhino Stomp, lifting enemies up in the air to slowly float back down. Typhoon could then be used to nuke the heck out of these ragdolled enemies, as it gets a huge damage boost on airborne enemies. Tornado, the ultimate, could then be cast as a further catalyst, sweeping up all of the enemies in a large area, and holding them in the air in tight clusters, free for Zephyr to cast Typhoon on as she wishes.

 

This isn't essential for Zephyr to be functional though. Taking your advice of not making another Limbo, I made sure that all her abilities were useful on their own, but the potential for synergy is there, giving Zephyr players the choice of making complex plays.

 

-linebreak-

 

About Hydroid, though I've thought it over a bit and have a rough idea of how to improve his abilities. This is going to be orientated towards melee, as I am quite sure that Hydroid's release coinciding with Melee 2.0 is not a coincidence.

 

Melee-benefiting abilities generally fall into a few essential categories:

1.Something to defend against ranged enemies. This happens either by reducing the function of enemies (Warcry, Silence). Or by improving one's own defenses (Smokescreen, Invisibility, Warcry, Turbulence). Hydroid notably lacks one of these.

 

2.A gap closer.

 

3.A "finisher" ability that makes enemies in close range vulnerable (Paralysis, Teleport, Dive Bomb, Sonic Boom). Gap closers and "finishers" often coincide, as seen in Ash, Zephyr, and Hydroid himself.

 

4.An ability that buffs melee potential (Bladestorm, Warcry, Speed, Surging Dash). Hydroid also lacks one of these, although I have a different way of implementing it.

 

5.An invulnerability ability. Yes, I am dead serious. Melee will always eventually end up being overwhelmed, so something that allows the player to be invulnerable while also clearing some space around them (Bladestorm, Hysteria, Soundquake before the changes). Puddle does allow Hydroid to get a moment of peace when overwhelmed, but it does absolutely nothing to help him clear the enemies. Once the ability ends, he's right back where he started.

 

Hydroid's abilities aren't that far, and only really need a few slight changes for him to be the melee king.

 

New debuff: "Wetness" All enemies hit by Hydroid's abilities will become wet. Wet enemies become extremely vulnerable to procs. All damage dealt to a wet enemy will gain a flat +25% chance to afflict status. Allies that are wet will have any status duration on them cut in half (more preventative than curative, so as to not contest Oberon's role). This is where Hydroid's melee boost will come from, an unending torrent of procs.

 

Tempest Barrage: Ragdolls instead of knocking down so as to avoid animation locks preventing enemies from being knocked down. Hydroid becomes invisible while inside Tempest Barrage's range. This means that Hydroid can control the size of the battlefield where he fights, preventing any enemies outside from targeting him while he beats down on the enemies inside. Hydroid now has a defensive ability.

 

Tidal Surge: The synergy with Puddle that you suggested, and it also regenerates Hydroid's stamina 5 times faster while he's a wave. Tidal Surge sucks up all enemies within a small radius around Hydroid when it is used. This means that Hydroid can take his battle with him. Out of stamina? No problem, use Tidal Surge to take the enemies you're currently fighting to a new place and get all your stamina back.

 

Puddle: Enemies that are spat out of the puddle have a nullifying effect applied to them for several seconds. This negates Eximus abilities, and normal abilities like Radial Blast and grenades. Now Hydroid can actually finish off the enemies that he trapped after his shields have regenerated.

 

Tentacle Swarm: All enemies and players within range of Tentacle Swarm have "Wetness" applied to them regardless of whether they've been hit or not. All enemies also have a nullifying effect applied to them. This not only helps Hydroid's area lockdown, but also increases build diversity by giving a reason to build for range.

 

Passive: Hydroid himself is always wet.

Edited March 3, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

Your concept is interesting, but the problem is... aside from Tidal Surge (and maybe his higher stamina cap), nothing about Hydroid really says "melee" to me. His abilities make him play off more as a caster, with high area-defense and light stealth capabilities.

 

Personally, I see Hydroid more as a sea monster in Tenno guise. A lurker in the deep. Someone whose purpose is to gather up unsuspecting sailors to feed upon them. 

 

The Wetness debuff is also interesting, dare I say possibly even fitting, but I ponder how making someone wet and then setting them on fire is supposed to make them more likely to burn.

I think Wetness should instead have a different effect for each element that procs against it - Electric should deal more damage, Cold should freeze enemies for half the duration of the slow, Heat should deal its total damage upfront while enemies are still stunned by the burns, and Toxin could splash to nearby enemies, with no effects against combination elements.

[StevesEvilTwin]

Your concept is interesting, but the problem is... aside from Tidal Surge (and maybe his higher stamina cap), nothing about Hydroid really says "melee" to me. His abilities make him play off more as a caster, with high area-defense and light stealth capabilities.

 

Personally, I see Hydroid more as a sea monster in Tenno guise. A lurker in the deep. Someone whose purpose is to gather up unsuspecting sailors to feed upon them. 

 

The Wetness debuff is also interesting, dare I say possibly even fitting, but I ponder how making someone wet and then setting them on fire is supposed to make them more likely to burn.

I think Wetness should instead have a different effect for each element that procs against it - Electric should deal more damage, Cold should freeze enemies for half the duration of the slow, Heat should deal its total damage upfront while enemies are still stunned by the burns, and Toxin could splash to nearby enemies, with no effects against combination elements.

 

I interpret Hydroid as a melee frame because all of his abilities revolve around knocking the enemies down, one of the key effects of which is opening them to Melee Finishers. By proxy, Hydroid's abilities are focused on Finishers, and therefore melee. He doesn't have to revolve around melee though, nor did I try to lock him into melee with any of the changes to his abilities. The status procs are there because I noticed that a lot of status effects are more useful in melee. I included just as much area control in his abilities. It's just that this way he becomes good (excellent) for melee.

 

Gonna have to disagree there. Hydroid is and always will be Davy Jonesframe for me.

 

Who said they're wet with water? On the flip side, who says the "fire" in Warframe is what we usually think of as fire? Space Magic already allows stuff to burn in space, why not when wet?

 

No, giving status procs different effects on wet enemies would completely destroy my intention for it because the wetness goes from being a beneficial effect no matter what mods you're using all the way into gimmick territory. It adds a new, unnecessary mechanic to gameplay. What players are familiar with is suddenly replaced with different things for no reason. Players will have to think about whether or not they're playing Hydroid when building their weapons, which I feel is too limiting. It's like Ember using the Ignis, it kinda makes people lose respect for the frame when they're forced to use gimmicks.

 

I chose to give a status chance boost for Hydroid's abilities because of the characteristics of water itself. Water is pretty plain by itself, which is why Hydroid deals physical damage on his abilities. But water is also calles the Universal Solvent for a reason. It takes on the characteristics of whatever gets mixed into it. If you mix poison into a pond, the whole pond becomes poisonous. If you stick a wire into one corner of a pool, the whole pool becomes electrified. It doesn't change whatever got mixed into it (most of the time), it just spreads it around. Water is also subtle, it doesn't seek attention, it just goes with the flow, so the effect should also be subtle. Hence, why I decided to make Wetness give all enemies a vulnerability to all status effects. What they're afflicted with doesn't change, it just makes it more likely for them to be afflicted with it in the first place. On the flip side, water also takes whatever gets dissolved into it away when it gets washed away. Water cleans, so wetness on players reduces the effect of procs on them. Water also dilutes, which is why Undertow and Tentacle Swarm have nullifying effects (not on the other abilities though, as that would be OP).

 

Wow that got poetic

 

.-linebreak-

 

I realize that there were some communication errors in my posts regarding Zephyr, so I will rewrite them in a (hopefully) more clear format.

 

Tailwind/Divebomb:

1. Changes as you suggested, Divebomb and Tailwind merged into one ability.

2. Divebomb ragdolls enemies vertically into the air instead of knocking them down.

3. Grounds any airborne enemies Zephyr hits while flying.

 

Typhoon:

1. Instead shoots a single, straight flying (no projectile drop), moderately fast, moderately large, explosive projectile of spiraling wind at wherever Zephyr points.

2. Is one handed.

3. Explodes on impact and deals a decent amount of damage.

4. Direct hits greatly increased damage on airborne enemies (like 10x) but grounds them after.

4. Explosion pushes back enemies and Zephyr herself with a large amount of force.

5. Therefore, Zephyr can aim Typhoon at the ground or at walls to "rocket jump". (this is the part that doesn't work in the air, because there's no objects to push off of, the projectile still works as normal and can even propel Zephyr again if she aims at where she is going to land)

6. If Zephyr is moving when rocket jumping, all of her current velocity is added to the velocity of the rocket jump. (sprinting while rocket jumping will propel Zephyr further and higher than when standing still)

 

Turbulence:

1. 50% of bullets have a chance to go through Zephyr, dealing no damage, when active.

2. Increases to 90% when Zephyr is in the air.

3. Zephyr's weight is reduced even further, and she can basically glide around in the air for a while.

4. Enemies in a radius around Zephyr will also be "floatier"

5? Allies will be floatier, but only as much as Zephyr normally is?

 

Tornado:

1. Traps enemies in the Tornado as you stated.

2. Tornadoes grow larger and faster when in the range of Turbulence, but move slower.

3. Typhoon shots that hit a Tornado count as direct airborne hits "airshots" for all of the enemies in the Tornado.

 

-linebreak-

 

I also see people complaining about Ash's Bladestorm being boring to use, so I came up with a rough idea for a rework:

Ash is an assassin, so he should be focused on one to one fights (which he does), and be good at countering his enemies clumsy attacks with inhuman dexterity. He makes for an interesting melee trio with Hydroid and Valkyr. Hydroid focuses on Finishers, kicking his enemies while they're down (and stealing candy from babies) like the pirate he is. Valkyr focuses button mashing, overwhelming her enemies with an unending flurry of attacks while their bullets barely scratch her. Ash, will focus on the defensive aspects of melee, blocking and countering, along with his orginal stealth role. Now if only there was a frame that focused on channeling...

 

Why counterattacking? Well, the answer is simple: Assassin's Creed (and Shadow of Mordor and Batman). Basically, in those kinds of sandbox action games with melee fighting, countering is the key to winning. It pretty much results in an instakill for countering succesfully along with a flashy animation. More importantly, it makes the player feel both skilled and powerful when they manage to pull it off, something that is direly lacking in this game due to the horde mode path it has taken.

 

The key to strengthening Ash's role as an assassin is to give him abilities that put him in one on one fights with enemies. Playing Ash should make the player feel like an action movie hero fighting hundreds of goons who for whatever reason decide to only rush him one at a time. I'm not quite sure how to do this (better than Limbo already does without copying his abilities), but here's start.

 

Shuriken:

Inflicts fear on enemies if they don't die from the initial hit. Hey look! I actually found a use for Nekros' stupid Terrify mechanic. For Ash, it's actually beneficial to be in one on one fights, so having a few enemies run away isn't really a bad thing. The fear effect has to be delayed slightly though, or it'll ruin Shuriken's use as a stealth attack.

 

Smoke Screen:

Ash's stealth attack range is greatly increased in addition to the invisibility. This means that Ash will be able to dash up to unsuspecting enemies instantly, pretty much avoiding all chance of detection. More importantly however, it means Air Assassinations!

 

Teleport:

Can be cast without a target for 15 energy in the same way you suggested. When cast on an enemy however, it costs 30 energy and performs a Bladestorm finisher on the enemy, dealing the same damage as a Bladestorm attack. It doesn't teleport Ash back though, for obvious reasons. This might look OP at first, but it actually costs more energy to do the same amount of damage as Bladestorm, and gives players the control that they wanted over who to attack.

 

Call Brotherhood Bladestorm:

What's an assassin who is supposed to face enemies one at a time supposed to do when surrounded? Simple, call more assassins to fight all of the enemies individually! Ash's smoke clones still teleport around doing the same thing, but Ash himself has a completely different effect.

 

Ash turns into a smoke clone, who is immune to status effects but has no shields and only half of Ash's health. The smoke clone also has infinite stamina, reflects bullets when blocking, and has 100% counter chance when blocking (without channeling). When the smoke clone Ash currently controls dies, Ash instead possess another one of the clones that is running around. The ability ends when either all of the smoke clones are used up, or when the smoke clones have killed a certain number of enemies. The smoke clones' killing rate will have to be greatly reduced.

 

All enemies within the area of effect will also be susceptible to Finishers from behind, regardless of whether or not they are alert. Allies will also gain the stamina and blocking benefits. This way Ash at least still has some team benefits.

Edited March 5, 2015 by StevesEvilTwin

[taiiat]

Gonna have to disagree there. Hydroid is and always will be Davy Jonesframe for me.

Space Magic already allows stuff to burn in space, why not when wet?

- a Sea Monster and Davy Jones are close enough to each other.

Davy Jones is an interpretation of the oblique, cloudy nature of the depths of the sea.

Sea Monsters usually also represent that confusion or fear of the depths of the sea.

- there's no space magic involved. have you ever seen an Self Oxidizing Fuel? whether it's the bottom of the ocean or in the middle of space, self oxidizing materials will always burn.

[StevesEvilTwin]

- a Sea Monster and Davy Jones are close enough to each other.

Davy Jones is an interpretation of the oblique, cloudy nature of the depths of the sea.

Sea Monsters usually also represent that confusion or fear of the depths of the sea.

- there's no space magic involved. have you ever seen an Self Oxidizing Fuel? whether it's the bottom of the ocean or in the middle of space, self oxidizing materials will always burn.

I am referring to the Davy Jones in the Pirates movies, who is most definitely not oblique nor cloudy.

Exactly, so they can burn when wet as well. If we're going to get technical trying to explain things that are basically there for gameplay reasons, then I could argue that Hydroid "wets" his enemies with Energy that makes them weak to procs. It just so happens that the Energy is delivered by and has the appearance of water.

[Elydir]

Passive: Hydroid himself is always wet.

 

Am I the only one who thought of the "that makes me moist" reaction image...

 

Who said they're wet with water?

 

... because this does not help.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Annon5150