Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[--Q--uaint]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Instead, damage taken by players standing on Hallowed Ground will now contribute to the damage dealt by Hallowed Ground, while enemies are staggered upon stepping onto Hallowed Ground.

Why not both? Hallowed Ground needs all the help it can get…

[Archwizard]

3 minutes ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Why not both? Hallowed Ground needs all the help it can get…

Because I wanted to move the mitigation elsewhere to streamline his kit some.

Really, half his problem with his Live iteration is that he needs to be streamlined - a character whose design is "quantity over quality", trying to stack WXYZ effects on an ability for "uniqueness" where just suping-up effect X would do for literally any other frame. It just makes it harder for a player who just made him to understand his ins and outs, without significantly affecting his scalability.

Which is primarily why I've been against keeping Reckoning - we have way too many frames as it is whose kits include multiple skills whose sole purpose is to deal damage, and in Oberon's case, Reckoning is just better at that than Smite is.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

I'm wondering if perhaps... on some level... the solution to both Trinity and Oberon's problems, is to trade?

in theory, yes.
in say, Dork Souls(or some other game that doesn't normally revolve around cheesing and cheating to defeat the Player), that would be the immediate answer and you'd be a hero.

however for Warframe, Trinity basically does one thing really well, "outlast the s... out of everything". that's pretty much all the Warframe does. and to do that, she... does need both Link and Blessing with how Enemies are presented in this game. ideally would not, but unfortunately does.

i.e. Trinity right this second: 50% Healing Allies and supplying them with Energy, 50% Link + Blessing + infinite self Energy to be able to survive anything, period. with the tradeoff really being that the only ways to directly affect Enemies she has is two forms of single target CC, and single target pulse Damage.

as broken as Trinity can be for groups - i'm not ashamed to say that juggling Trinitys' Abilities to be an almost pacifist brick wall is certainly unique, and the act of juggling those Abilities being very engaging.

 

that being said, if Well of Life becomes more useful (without losing the way it's casted or that it works as single target CC) at Healing and Et Cetera - could be okay i guess, except without the double Resistance, Trinity needs that bottomless Energy source from Energy Vampire in order to not die, as will be needing to Heal almost constantly.
which could go a bit south, if she needs to Heal so often she ends up having a Desecrate problem where to keep from dying she's completely taken out of doing anything else.
(also means your intended composition for Energy Vampire doesn't cut it - Trinity needs the Energy immediately, to be able to spam Abilities to keep from dying)

 

in short, would be great for Oberon, but at the same time would turn Trinity into an immediate disaster. unless it coincides with rebuilding the way the game handles Enemies from the ground up at the same time.

[--Q--uaint]

13 minutes ago, taiiat said:

in short, would be great for Oberon, but at the same time would turn Trinity into an immediate disaster. unless it coincides with rebuilding the way the game handles Enemies from the ground up at the same time

I thought it was sort-of implied in this thread that the cheese would have to go before all this stuff happens, but it’s certainly good to bring that up and make sure everybody’s on the same page.

18 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

Really, half his problem with his Live iteration is that he needs to be streamlined - a character whose design is “quantity over quality”, trying to stack WXYZ effects on an ability for “uniqueness” where just suping-up effect X would do for figuratively any other frame. It just makes it harder for a player who just made him to understand his ins and outs, without significantly affecting his scalability.

Which is primarily why I've been against keeping Reckoning - we have way too many frames as it is whose kits include multiple skills whose sole purpose is to deal damage, and in Oberon’s case, Reckoning is just better at that than Smite is.

Didja look at my wall of text about Oberon in the post I made right before this one? You hadn’t edited your doublepost yet when I started writing it, so bear that in mind.
….Maybe I should format that a little better. EDIT: done

Edited April 12, 2016 by ChronoEclipse

[--Q--uaint]

Double posting is probably bad, but it’s an entirely different topic and separated by a fair amount of time, so I'm gonna go ahead. If it was out of line to do so, just say so and I'll try to remember not to in the future :P

Another thought for Trinity:

Well of Life
As now, Trinity marks a victim, raising it into the air and multiplying its health by 10.
Instead of simply restoring health to the person dealing damage, WoL now restores health to all friendlies in range when the victim takes damage. If augmented, the healing would grant shields/overshields.
In addition to the healing, WoL now provides an aura of damage reduction based on how much damage the victim has taken while under its influence.
The DR-granting aura lasts the full duration of WoL, regardless of victim death. A maximum of 3 DR auras may be up at once, with additional casts canceling previous casts in order of seniority.
Only one victim my be CC'd by WoL at any given time; recasting WoL releases the target without canceling the DR aura (unless it’s got no DR, I guess).

Energy Vampire
EV is now either free to cast, or guarantees the return of the cast-cost on effect end.
The targeting, use mechanics are the same.
EV now damages its target each second rather than having a set number of tics.
If within range of EV, the caster receives 6 energy every second.
EV builds up a “bomb” of energy over its duration, only scaling with power strength and uptime. This “bomb” would start accruing energy to disperse at 1/second, and the rate would scale up over the duration of EV.
At the end of the duration or on victim death, the stored “bomb” of energy would be released, restoring energy to all allies in range. Note that all allies would get the full contents of the “bomb,” unlike Mend’s mechanics.
The augment for EV could be to a) make it free-to-cast if it’s not already _{of course removing the benefit that it gives back its casting cost, since the cast cost is nothing} and b) make it cast instantly on the victim of any channeled melee strike so long as it is not already active.

Link
As others have noted, it’d be nice for the DR granted and the outgoing damage scale with power strength, though it’s not essential.Blessing
Could use most any of the ideas that have been thrown about here. I'm currently partial to the one I made recently and a slight alteration of Archwizard’s.
Mine:

Spoiler

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Perhaps instead of CC/damage, Blessing would fullheal instantly and make all damage taken by teammates with the buff produce a healing pulse with 18m range equal to 75% of the health lost, in addition to granting allies a Quick Thinking effect that scales its “efficiency” with Power Strength.
That seems like a suitable replacement for damage reduction, and doesn’t mess with Vex Armor or whatever else.

This provides an (inferior) alternative to WoL for survivability on highly mobile teams, and doesn’t entirely step on WoL’s toes in the healing/survival department because most of its effects are passive and QT is vastly inferior to DR in most cases.
It fills Blessing’s current (intended?) role as a reactive snap-heal button with some level of sustained effectiveness.

Archwizard’s:

Spoiler

9 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Blessing reworked: No longer heals or provides mitigation. Trinity casts a buff on the party (regardless of distance), and momentarily stuns enemies near each affected ally on application (affected by Range). Enemies who attack players with the buff will be temporarily stunned. Buff and stun both affected by Duration.

I think it’d be fair to give Blessing either the ability to cleanse on cast or provide full immunity to status procs as compensation for losing so much of its power, but this would be reasonable (with or without) IMO with a strengthened WoL like the one I propose above.

 

[Aquasurge]

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Reckoning
Since Oberon now has a mitigation tool, we can bring back the idea of a mass CC/damage power. I don’t remember where I saw the idea of making Reckoning actually judge the enemies, but I like it… so here’s an adaptation of it.

Oberon raises enemies into the air, dealing the full Radiation portion of the damage on Reckoning when they reach maximum height. This is the Judgment phase of the ability. If more than 50% of the affected enemies die, the enemies are deemed Unworthy; else, they are deemed Worthy.

If the enemies are deemed Unworthy, Oberon releases a healing pulse (overhealing going into shields/overshields) based on the damage dealt and smashes the remaining enemies into the ground dealing Impact (or Puncture *shrug*) damage.
All enemies killed by the ability are guaranteed to drop ammunition.
Allies affected by the healing pulse gain a movement speed buff.

If the enemies are deemed Worthy, Oberon leaves the enemies in the air for 8 seconds.
Allies within range of Reckoning receive 75% damage reduction (capped at 95%) for 8 seconds.
The affected targets are procced with Radiation for the duration of the hold and will blind any enemy within 14 meters. Targets have life-granting like WoL-targets, and 7% of overhealing becomes an additive armor bonus that lasts for 10 seconds and refreshes on dealing damage to a Worthy Reckoning victim.
At the end of the holding period, the targets are ragdolled away from Reckoning’s cast point and produce a Heavy Impact proc upon landing.

Oberon now has the ability to buff and heal his team if acting as a nuker, and give his team stacking refreshable armor bonuses for high level content. Adding this to a reworked and more usable Hallowed Ground, and he becomes a life-support master with a bit of management/skill/coordination.

i really like the sound of Oberon calling judgement.

[Cool3303]

@ArchwizardI wholly agree with your thesis about mitigation and healing but I think your new Oberon rework has a couple of noteworthy flaws:

Hallowed Ground damage increasing with damage received :

Spoiler

Aside from making some fun^tm Stuff possible (Inaros draining himself adding tons of damage) this essentially drains all remaining worth of the ability...why would you want to have a tiny burning carpet (and even with max range and standing in a crossing so you feed damage into multiple directions at the same time) the range is by far not big enough to use it in big tiles.

To make it usefull the damage would need to be truly outrageous... and even then... why would you want to grind to a standstill in a game that is all about movement?

Provided you are not camping a chokepoint where that would not matter (so +1a for camping F for everything else)

As for Reckoning:

Spoiler

Version A:Damage cap...while the core Idea is not too bad I think this would be extremely difficult to balance: How would it scale with strength and where would it start and end?

If it protected from Trooper Bullets it would essentially mean all survivals and Defenses in the entire starchart would be pointless for 10 waves (since "advanced" enemies only spawn in later waves... similarly Elite Crewmen would get screwed (continous weapons apply damage each tick)) etc...etc...

Essentially it would be more of a hassle for the Developers than it's worth (your Phoenix Ember says hello)

Version B:Damage feeding into Oberon ... I would stand in fire, Void lasers and infront of a (couple) Heavy Gunner(s)... does this make me a teamkilling A******? probably...

You explained it a bit poorly ... I like the core concept though, could you elaborate more? (so would he really take damage or just scale up his armor from a portion of the damage allies receive?(I assume decaying over time,inversely scaling with P-strength))

Also as food for thought, maybe the bad thing isn't that he stacks multiple effects on his abilities but the problem that they are all underwhelmingly applied? With the most blatantly obvious being Renewal not affecting allies that are already dead...

Oberon as I see him:

Spoiler

For me it does not matter how many effects he has to stack, I see Oberon as the Frame most contributing to Teamwork out of all the others. Or rather put, he feels well while operating at a level which is "sane" when compared to other games... Sure he isn't working at level 100 due to broken scaling but....

The thing is, he operates extremely well while playing with a team, which agrees to stay together in between 50-100m on a level where you won't be killed in 0.1 seconds... His Kit is always reliable and has unique effects (wiping debuffs) and more than anything else, a "good" Oberon won't be a liability, as he keeps himself alive with his #3 and #4 which of course apply to him better than to other frames which are further away

The theme of Paladin he has is in my opinion more than fulfilled by the effects on his #1 and #4 (Confuse/Knockdown) aswell as the effects on #2 (Cleansing) and #3 (Healing) just because his damage model is outdated doesn't mean he doesn't fullfill multiple roles

By providing enough mitigation to maintain a level where he can excell and apply his abilities he would be truly great.

I think Oberon could be fixed with just one change:

Hallowed Ground: Additionally to the % increase (now for total armor), Allies receive X more Armor upon entering Hallowed Ground which persists for X seconds after leaving Hallowed Ground

With that simple change even Frames not built for Armor could benefit from the tankyness Oberon grants as opposed to the old power which granted 2 armor to Banshee *lol*. There would also be a bigger reason to enter Oberon's "home turf" and stay close to his epic balls... getting that sweet healing all over you *insert Uranus joke*

I however certainly agree that the following changes would contribute a lot (partially from your initial suggestions) :

• Hallowed Ground safeguarding against all debuffs (except knockdown) including energy drain
• Hallowed Ground augment Hallowed Sanctum: HG sticking with Oberon as a circular aura
• Renewal change to Traveltime (I think a complete change/nullification would go to far but traveling a additional % of the total distance each second could work)
• Renewals Bleedout increase also affecting Dead allies
• Renewal charges up Inaros Sarcophagus slowly
• Slightly more Armor and/or Health

 

Concerning Trinity:

I feel she cannot be truly fixed until we have Damage 3.0 and know wether Frames are supposed to die in a battle of atrition or being fragged in a mere moment after making a mistake.

It certainly feels as DE aims for slower deaths with all the recent additions (tons of armor buffs, aswell as Inaros, the tankiest frame alive) and Steve's post "no more oneshots" ...atleast I hope thats about the players not the bosses...

But there is no telling if there is a place for a full Healing frame in a game where it is much easier to just pick up the person under the cover of CC, not to mention a proper CC frame also netting much more Survivability compared to some tiny healthpools (also not considering how easy healing would be if energy orbs were substituted by healing orbs)

Maybe a simple revival ult could work out for her, having a casting animation of 1-2 seconds and a very small range.

This would leave WOL for all the heavy duty healing without substracting from her overall value too much.

[Archwizard]

21 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Perhaps instead of CC/damage, Blessing would fullheal instantly

Full-healing with Blessing defeats half the point of addressing Blessing at all. 

Be realistic: When would you use Well of Life over Blessing? Overshields ain't exactly a lot when the frame's main powers concern health.

21 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Renewal
Add a new buffing mechanic to augment its healing. All health damage the squad takes is granted as an additive armor bonus for all allies that lasts until the end of Renewal. All additive bonus armor stacks multiplicatively with Hallowed Ground’s bonus.

I'd been considering putting the armor buff on Renewal as a mobile, proximity thing if I didn't move it to his ultimate.

21 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

Reckoning
Since Oberon now has a mitigation tool, we can bring back the idea of a mass CC/damage power. I don’t remember where I saw the idea of making Reckoning actually judge the enemies, but I like it… so here’s an adaptation of it.

The judgement thing is something worth considering, but for the most part the effect already needs streamlining.

Reckoning as it is: Deal full damage, if target dies->50% for health orb or jack nothing, if target lives->radial blind+knockdown+confusion.
Reckoning as proposed: Deal half damage, if >50% of targets die->healing+full damage, if >50% of targets live->lift+mitigation+Rad proc+blind+lifesteal+armor+ragdoll.

It's... a bit much. Try to explain all of that in the 2 sentences you get from the in-game Codex, or a 20 second clip from his Profile video, since that's what most players will reference long before the wiki.

20 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

Hallowed Ground damage increasing with damage received :

I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say, since a number of your statements are contradictory.

You're saying that by removing just the armor (I never said anything about dispelling, and mind you, the armor is just moving elsewhere) I'm making it useless... but then immediately turn around and say the game is about movement anyway so the carpet should be irrelevant in every way, shape, and form so long as it's a skill Tenno are intended to stand in.

That's the point of Hallowed Ground: this is the area upon which the Tenno makes their stand. As long as they stand on Hallowed Ground and are judged worthy, they have the advantage. Your suggestion just reduces it to... a waystation.

(And no, I didn't mean Nekros' or Inaros' ability costs would affect Hallowed Ground. They get enough mileage out of healing.)

27 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

As for Reckoning:

Version A: You misunderstand, the cap doesn't drop damage down to a set top end - it entirely cuts off the bottom end. Think of it as a shell that negates flat X damage from every hit taken.
It's a complete shutdown on enemies like Heavy Gunners, leaving you open mostly just to heavier attacks like rockets (which is where Renewal comes in to supplement). It's a version I've recommended for him before.

Version B: The damage just goes to Oberon, it doesn't spread back out to allies - so you wouldn't be teamkilling by receiving damage, the rest of the team would be killing you. It's explained exactly as it should be, you're just making additional assumptions I never alluded to.

[Cool3303]

@ArchwizardHallowed Ground:

I think you simply misunderstood my chain of argumentation (if this format is easier i will aply it in future posts, please tell me):

I use quotes because they are collapsible too

Lets look at the effects of Hallowed Ground: (Cursive=Bad/Lackluster Bold=Good)

Quote

1. Excessive damage (received) due to idling
   1. Lackluster armor buff feeding into #1 (base armor % increase, bad for low armor frames)
   2. Standing still is required due to small range
2. Doing Hardly any damage
   1. Lackluster damage
   2. Lackluster distribution of damage
3. Clears debuffs

If we now look again at it after your rework:

Quote

1. Excessive damage (received) due to idling
   1. No armor at all
   2. Standing still is required due to small range
2. Doing hardly any damage
   1. Lackluster damage
   2. Lackluster distribution of damage
   3. A lot of Damage under the condition of being "fed"
      1. This makes downside #1.0 and #2.2 extremely obvious
      2. Effectively limiting the number of "good" instances to 1 (as only Oberon or Tanks will (be able to) feed it)
      3. Unreliable return of energy cost if it cannot be fed due to any reason
3. Clears debuffs

Yeah I know, renewal gets the Armorbuff, still no reason to use Hallowed Ground AT ALL(except for damage which it distributes poorly)

However by making it a "waystation" it would:

Quote

1. Excessive damage (received)
   1. 1 Armor buff for staying inside (Total % increase) (Good for high armor frames)
   2. 1 Flat Armor buff which persists after leaving (Good for low armor frames)
   3. Small downside when leaving
2. Doing hardly any damage
   1. Lackluster damage
   2. Lackluster distribution of damage
3. Clears debuffs
   1. Provides immunity (Energy Drains for example) while staying on it?

Reckoning:

I assure you, I did not missunderstand your Version A:

All I was saying was if the complete damage cap would be relevant enough to block out troopers bullets it would trivialize almost all content as fast firing weapons from Basic Troopers or Heavy Gunners are at the same point the most DPS received aswell as the smallest instances of damage.

Also continous weapons would bug out since Damage is calculated per tick (damage calculation happens before applying it in packages) so Scorches,Hyekka Masters,Elite crewman and some other Enemies would be effectively removed from the game - if DE didn't spend considerable effort on remaking their damage calculation...

Ontop of that a lot of Survivals and Defenses only do spawn Bombards and Ballistas after 10 minutes (Sniper Crewman too but those are a joke anyway)

Version B:

I completely understood you, I meant what I would do if I was noticing that I had a Oberon on my team who used Reckoning.... I poorly formulated that.

Seems I poorly read your description aswell, getting more at a capped Rate? makes sense...it is just... do you mean a conversion rate or a capped rate of armor growth per second?

Edited April 14, 2016 by Cool3303

[taiiat]

4 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Hallowed Ground: Additionally to the % increase (now for total armor), Allies receive X more Armor upon entering Hallowed Ground which persists for X seconds after leaving Hallowed Ground

With that simple change even Frames not built for Armor could benefit from the tankyness Oberon grants

no they wouldn't. the amount of Armor you get by switching the Base Armor to total Armor is still crap. unless the Warframe has almost 200 Armor(before Steel Fiber), the amount of Armor you get is still useless.
as for getting even more Armor after leaving the area of the Ability - that defeats the existing purpose of the Ability, to be a protected safe zone.

2 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Also continous weapons would bug out since Damage is calculated per tick (damage calculation happens before applying it in packages) so Scorches,Hyekka Masters,Elite crewman and some other Enemies would be effectively removed from the game - if DE didn't spend considerable effort on remaking their damage calculation...

uh - they'd be the exact opposite, being not resisted at all, once Enemy Level gets to midrange. Scorches in Particular with their "DPS that belongs on an Enemy 40 Levels higher than myself". they already easily deal >300DPS at Lv25-30. 
since the Damage application happens in large amounts once a second, you just wouldn't be protected against it at all, since it by Damage size would end up counting as a Bombard Missile or other high Damage source.

2 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Ontop of that a lot of Survivals and Defenses only do spawn Bombards and Ballistas after 10 minutes (Sniper Crewman too but those are a joke anyway)

no they don't. there's a mixture of Enemies, always.
Heavies start to filter in at ~7min30sec-9min / Wave 7-10 because that's when the game starts filtering them in.
Mediums start to filter in at ~4-5min / Wave 5-7 because that's when the game starts filtering them in.

after that, a full mixture of Enemies. you're getting the impression Trash Units don't exist after that because they don't matter(much) anymore, the only things you care about are the Mediums and Heavies because they're a much higher threat and take longer to Kill.

 

 

4 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

...atleast I hope thats about the players not the bosses...

why wouldn't both ways be good? instantly Killing things that are important(Heavies, Bosses, Et Cetera) and instantly dying are both lame and make for a very crappy Video Game.

4 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Slightly more Armor and/or Health

nothing personal, but not before Saryn gets her Health back.

Edited April 13, 2016 by taiiat

[--Q--uaint]

19 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

problem that they are all underwhelmingly applied?

So much this. Reckoning would be a great CC ability with a lot of interesting shenanigans possible… if the blind on it didn’t have a base of 4 seconds (and ofc the mods for range+duration+efficiency working at cross purposes).

19 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Allies receive X more Armor upon entering Hallowed Ground which persists for X seconds after leaving Hallowed Ground

Unless X is a big number, I don’t see this being useful.

19 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

I feel she cannot be truly fixed until we have Damage 3.0 and know wether Frames are supposed to die in a battle of atrition or being fragged in a mere moment after making a mistake.

QFT

18 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Be realistic: When would you use Well of Life over Blessing? Overshields ain’t exactly a lot when the frame’s main powers concern health.

Blessing would provide dependable healing, but not really save you from oneshots. WoL would provide dependable healing and Damage Reduction to keep it relevant. WoL’s damage reduction, again, would let overshields be quite relevant since it protects your shields just as much as anything.

18 hours ago, Archwizard said:

I'd been considering putting the armor buff on Renewal as a mobile, proximity thing if I didn’t move it to his ultimate.

Yes, though I like the “standing your ground” vibe of Hallowed Ground. Not sure how it could/should be fixed, but I don’t think offensive capabilities should be emphasized over defensive ones.
I also really like the idea of Oberon having more than one source of EHP buffs, and them stacking multiplicatively (and at least one of them scaling) so you can make Oberon’s survivability buffs very strong with correct bulding and play.
Particularly worthy of note is having both +armor and +%armor and both stacking, so an Oberon who’s on his game can help any 'frame with all his buffs.

18 hours ago, Archwizard said:

Reckoning as it is: Deal full damage, if target dies->50% for health orb or jack nothing, if target lives->radial blind+knockdown+confusion.
Reckoning as proposed: Deal half damage, if >50% of targets die->healing+full damage, if >50% of targets live->lift+mitigation+Rad proc+blind+lifesteal+armor+ragdoll.

It’s… a bit much. Try to explain all of that in the 2 sentences you get from the in-game Codex, or a 20 second clip from his Profile video, since that’s what most players will reference long before the wiki.

With Reckoning, Oberon passes judgment on his enemies in a trial by fire. If they are found wanting, he crushes their last resistance and envigorates his allies to seal victory; if they are found worthy opponents, he debilitates them and protects his allies.

14 hours ago, taiiat said:

why wouldn’t both ways be good? instantly Killing things that are important(Heavies, Bosses, Et Cetera) and instantly dying are both lame and make for a very crappy Video Game.

There are definitely games that are fun that have instant death for both enemies and the player, but I agree with your point with respect to Warframe. I don’t think this is the thread to discuss fixing that problem, though.

[Cool3303]

Why do I feel slightly missunderstood...

6 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

On 13.4.2016 at 7:44 PM, Cool3303 said:

Additionally to the % increase (now for total armor),Allies receive X more Armor upon entering Hallowed Ground which persists for X seconds after leaving Hallowed Ground

Unless X is a big number, I don’t see this being useful.  ^{*comment* RLY??? It is one thing to say that  there would be a difficulty due to interactions but just saying "I didn't see enough XXX"... really?}

[...]

I also really like the idea of Oberon having more than one source of EHP buffs, and them stacking multiplicatively (and at least one of them scaling) so you can make Oberon’s survivability buffs very strong with correct bulding and play.
Particularly worthy of note is having both +armor and +%armor

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

[Allies wouldn't proft from the Armor buff]. the amount of Armor you get by switching the Base Armor to total Armor is still crap. unless the Warframe has almost 200 Armor(before Steel Fiber), the amount of Armor you get is still useless.
as for getting even more Armor after leaving the area of the Ability - that defeats the existing purpose of the Ability, to be a protected safe zone.

For the less creative people... my starting bet would be 150 Armor and a 40% Total increase of armor

That is A LOT... I know, but keep in mind Armor does not scale linearly and minimum Damage stays 1

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

why wouldn't both ways be good? instantly Killing things that are important(Heavies, Bosses, Et Cetera) and instantly dying are both lame and make for a very crappy Video Game.

Easy answer:Yes, Long Answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Simply said, when using a weapon that charges up for 2 seconds.... or reloads forever there needs to be a return in value and that is only possible if you get to oneshot atleast 1 heavy. Especially in a horde game. Similarly the same is true for Semi-Auto weapons and Slow firing weapons

Also Full auto weapons should only be balanced by Ammo capacity in rare occurences

And while I agree that oneshotting most bosses would suck, it sucks even more waiting a half hour for a unskippable cutscene (Vor,Tyl Regor,Vay Hek) while fighting a mechanically extremely simple boss.... simply put, if you have to fight him 3-10 times to get a frame out of him, the player should not be able to know the entirety of his moveset by the 1st fight

... not so simply put: Vay Hek is the worst boss to ever grace warframe

Edited April 14, 2016 by Cool3303

[--Q--uaint]

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Unless X is a big number, I don’t see this being useful.  ^{*comment* RLY??? It is one thing to say that  there would be a difficulty due to interactions but just saying “I didn’t see enough XXX”… really?}

Perhaps I should have been more clear; The base armor Oberon grants should be scalable with the enemies in some way, or at least stackable. This gives him the ability to actually help a Banshee with no health mods survive.

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

oneshot atleast 1 heavy

Oneshotting a heavy is not the same as oneshotting a boss.

Also, taiiat said “instantly killing.” You could call the Opticor an instant kill weapon, and you'd be right. However, the player has to spend a significant amount of time charging in order to get that kill. There’s a big difference between that and a machine gun that oneshots almost anything on the starchart that’s not a boss.

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

waiting a half hour for a unskippable cutscene (Vor,Tyl Regor,Vay Hek)

TBH, that’s basically all the reworked bosses. Vor has his bubble, Ruk has his glowy blue vents, Regor is a Manic, Hek has his mask, Krill has his tubes.

10 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Vay Hek is the worst boss to ever grace warframe

The floating around part is bad. The rest is fine.

[taiiat]

i thought i already responded, maybe i started typing and forgot to later in the day.

12 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Simply said, when using a weapon that charges up for 2 seconds.... or reloads forever there needs to be a return in value and that is only possible if you get to oneshot atleast 1 heavy. Especially in a horde game. Similarly the same is true for Semi-Auto weapons and Slow firing weapons

if you have to fight it 3-10 times to get a frame out of him, the player should not be able to know the entirety of his moveset by the 1st fight

in an ideal scenario, your Spike Damage Weapon wouldn't Kill a Heavy or Boss in one shot - but it would hit very hard. similarly, a Bullet Hose of some sort wouldn't come even close to Killing in one shot, you'll be spending a magazine to get similar Damage.

i'm sure i'll get 'but that would not be fast paced' - "fast paced" really has nothing to do with how many Enemies you Kill per second. fast paced means that your actions and the Enemies' actions are ofcourse happening in real time, but also that both you and the Enemy can act quickly. act, not necessarily Kill.
besides, Heavies and Bosses actually mattering at all like they're supposed to, by all means.

Trash Units in games mostly exist to soak up bullets / attacks and divide attention, Medium Units having a bit of durability and being more unique but are still relatively trashy in the grand scheme, Heavies usually being the most unique and flashy, intended to be somewhat significant on the battlefield, they matter.
mini-bosses ofcourse being somewhere between Heavy and Boss, and then Boss, ofcourse. the former is usually something meant to be a big attention grabber and quite dangerous & difficult to defeat, but not so crazy that it requires scripted sections and it's own purpose built terrain to support, Et Cetera. with the latter being exactly that, basically a scripted event that takes place in a unique location, generally struggles to have replay value due to how 'picture perfect' everything needs to be for it all to work out right.

- - - - - - - - - - 

unfortunately, spending even more Development Resources on making Bosses say, as complex as Dork Souls - just isn't going to work for Warframe. a ridiculous amount of Development Time are spent on these Bosses, but they ultimately make up a small percentage of the game, with only recently them having more than one purpose, now that Sorties can have Boss fights.
traditional bosses are just very inflexible and that makes it hard to do much with them other than what they were made to do.
as usual, traditional Bosses IMO only truly make sense in a story driven, Single Player game. something that's basically an A to B experience, hand crafted every step of the way.

games that expect a lot of replayability or reusing assets and Et Cetera - i think the effort is better spent on 3 Mini-bosses than 1 traditional Boss.
some games get away with this, Roguelikes for example - but that's generally because the boss arena often changes, but most importantly that while the Bosses don't change much, literally everything else in the game does change, pretty much constantly. from the Player to the Enemies to the environment.

the last vestige here to make traditional Bosses not be a total waste of time in the long run, is pretty much to make sure the Player can't cheese the Boss, so that they atleast get the expected result even if they only encounter it a few times in their 'career'.
which is important in games that allow huge stat variations, where one person may potentially have a 20fold or even 50fold easier or harder time with such an encounter - when Players have that many zeroes they'll eventually get, staged Bosses that make you do a lot of standing around and waiting are pretty much the only option. because running into room, skipping Cutscene (if there is one, since i'm talking about games in general), swinging or shooting once or twice, and then running back out of the room - is a complete failure of a Boss fight.
yes, it sucks to stand around and shoot every 20 seconds, but basically when the Player is going to get super Overpowered, the only option is to nullify all of that stuff the Player has. otherwise there's no game left.

[--Q--uaint]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

in an ideal scenario, your Spike Damage Weapon wouldn’t Kill a Heavy or Boss in one shot - but it would hit very hard.

This goes against DE’s stated goal of letting the player feel OP. You really can’t feel OP if it takes a long time to kill everything, and two Opticor shots for any enemy is definitely a long time, especially given Warframe’s love for hordes and large numbers of heavies. Exacerbating that problem is the fact that the sniper rework is almost entirely centered around making sure you can, in fact, oneshot nearly anything.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

“fast paced” really has nothing to do with how many Enemies you Kill per second.

This is true, but killing swarms of enemies is something DE wants to be in Warframe.

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

yes, it sucks to stand around and shoot every 20 seconds, but basically when the Player is going to get super Overpowered, the only option is to nullify all of that stuff the Player has. otherwise there’s no game left.

I agree that it sucks to stand around and shoot every 20 seconds, which is what a lot of the reworked bosses have become. I disagree on your argument that you have to nullify everything the player has.

I think it would be quite viable to have bossfights that allow the player to progress the fight manually rather than waiting for RNG or a timer to say they get to deal damage again. Even if this mechanic completely ignores DPS, the mechanics of your weapons are frequently improved by modding.
I doubt you'll find many Opticor or even (non-Rakta-Cernos) bow builds that don’t have at least some fire rate boost. Ammo mutation mods are added to a lot of different weapons.
Nullifying the DPS gaps that exist is needed, to a large extent, but making players wait pointlessly is bad design. (Hek, Regor, I'm looking at you.)

[taiiat]

On 4/15/2016 at 6:59 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

This goes against DE’s stated goal of letting the player feel OP.
This is true, but killing swarms of enemies is something DE wants to be in Warframe.

 

I agree that it sucks to stand around and shoot every 20 seconds, which is what a lot of the reworked bosses have become. I disagree on your argument that you have to nullify everything the player has.
Nullifying the DPS gaps that exist is needed, to a large extent, but making players wait pointlessly is bad design. (Hek, Regor, I'm looking at you.)

well, if your end goal is that, there is one important choice:
be able to Kill a hundred Enemies per minute at the press of a button, or have a game where Players by large aren't AFK and having it play on it's own.
Digital Extremes must really think about what they'd prefer. if they actually choose to make Warframe into an AFKFarming phone game... idunno, maybe they didn't love the game as much as i thought. (though, i am/was under the impression that it's like a baby to them)

 

the only other thing the Games Industry has other than that, are QTE based Bosses, that don't involve Player Equipment at all.
there's nothing else.
if you don't either not make the Player Overpowered in the first place, or nullify all of the things they shouldn't have, you can't make meaningful anything. period.
whether that be a Boss or just Gameplay in general. you can't make something that feels meaningful when the answers to all problems are one or two button presses.

Diminishing Returns of Abilities on more important Enemies makes some progress, but that just keeps you from using 'low tier' Weapons and still finishing the engagement quickly.
for more veteran Players - the Diminishing Returns generally doesn't mean much, only Staged Bosses can't be Killed instantly in a casually trivial manner with an Overpowered Weapon.

Edited April 17, 2016 by taiiat
yay typo's.

[Cool3303]

On 15.4.2016 at 6:04 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

Perhaps I should have been more clear; The base armor Oberon grants should be scalable with the enemies in some way, or at least stackable. This gives him the ability to actually help a Banshee with no health mods survive.

Imagine you have 300 armor (So starting from 0 if Oberon #2 had a stacking 150 Flat armor buff and 40% Total armor buff  for standing on HG this equals 140% Pstrength)

This equals a 50% Damage reduction while taking health damage... coincidentially percentages scale... percentually (amazing right? who knew?)

Oh and the best thing about Armor is that it doesn't bloody break the game since it scales properly on its own:

Armor reduction graph from the Wiki ... For max powerstrength however it seems I would have to adjust my values, if both scaled we would look at a outrageous amount (1900 Armor atleast).... I would be inclined to say only Flat armor would scale, that would be a nice 67%Damage reduction for 150*140%*299%~600Armor (starting with 0 armor)

It also works for the higher Armor frames, for example Valkyr would go from taking 18% of the damage to 13-10%(depends on Pstrength)

On 15.4.2016 at 6:04 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

Oneshotting a heavy is not the same as oneshotting a boss.

Also, taiiat said “instantly killing.” You could call the Opticor an instant kill weapon, and you'd be right. However, the player has to spend a significant amount of time charging in order to get that kill. There’s a big difference between that and a machine gun that oneshots almost anything on the starchart that’s not a boss.

The thing is, the current oneshotting of Bosses is the result of DE's continous incompetence at balancing weapons and mods, with a DPS gap of several 1000% between Noobies and Experienced players. But of course "content must be accessible for all players" and because of that all bosses have 20-50k HP even after scaling up to their max level (except Lephantis)

However a lvl 100 Heavy has way more, life and rightfully so...

On 15.4.2016 at 5:21 PM, taiiat said:

well, if your end goal is that, there is one important choice:
be able to Kill a hundred Enemies per minute at the press of a button, or have a game where Players by large aren't AFK and having it play on it's own.

[...]

if you don't either not make the Player Overpowered in the first place, or nullify all of the things they shouldn't have, you can't make meaningful anything. period.

Can you please stop using those sweeping generalization actually that is to nice, it still would imply there is a basis of reason, at this point it is more of a meme than anything "DE screwed up the damage system and now ppl tell me Nullifiers are bad design COOKIE CLICKER,IDLE GAMES, AD HOMINEM, ADD COOLDOWNS"

Regarding Bosses: giving a Unit/Boss a amount of life which is reasonable should be a thing, adding unskippable cutscenes or disabling player powers SHOULD NOT

Bosses for MR20 players should have atleast 1 million life with the current balance

 

Regarding normal enemies:

DE need to set their priorities straight and fix the damage system (and I doubt Damage 3.0 will accomplish that)

For a good balance concept look at Payday 2 (even though it has its flaws), The Thanatos(Heavy snipers) is the only rifle that oneshots the Heaviest unit on a Headshot, however ammo and Magsize and reload are its downsides while other snipers need 2-3 shots but oneshot all the other Special units too and have better mag and reloads

Meanwhile launchers do not completely F*** you up because of their self damage but only clear specials with a high ammo expenditure (which is also better handled as in warframe, you just slowly regain ammo and aren't stuck without any ammo after shooting 2 times, albeit the Secure Penta has that covered)

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2016 by Cool3303

[RealPandemonium]

On 4/15/2016 at 6:59 AM, ChronoEclipse said:

This goes against DE’s stated goal of letting the player feel OP. You really can’t feel OP if it takes a long time to kill everything

DE definitely wants us to feel powerful and at least several cuts above our opponents,  but I don't think they mean for every encounter to be trivial.  The earlier incarnations of the game focused on a more vulnerable Tenno that overcame incredible odds in each mission through their own effort and miraculous abilities.  These days, it feels like a joke when Lotus commends you on completing a mission "despite the odds" or whatever.  As DE started shotgunning content, powercreeping weapons, and pretending that Corrupted mods were never released for a while, that original vision kind of died and was replaced with a kind of whitewashed, ironic aesthetic with comical npcs, dogs, and memlord Ordis, among other things.  A return to the more interesting (both gameplay-wise and story-wise) previous aesthetic could do a lot for this game, even if certain players (and I say that loosely) will be upset at the loss of their ability to trivialize/automate all content.  

[--Q--uaint]

4 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Oh and the best thing about Armor is that it doesn’t bloody break the game since it scales properly on its own:

Why are you educating me on how armor calculates damage reduction? I never said I didn’t understand and wanted help, and have not said anything to indicate I don’t know anything about it.
I know how armor works, and that’s why I wanted to give Oberon that - especially since that gives him a source of DR that scales with enemies without utterly destroying any notion of balance.

4 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

a outrageous amount (1900 Armor atleast)

That’s 95% damage reduction, and only on Health. It also requires standing on Broberon’s shag carpet.
That’s maxed power strength, which sacrifices a huge amount of slots and stats (and mod energy which means forma, but w/e), while Mirage and Mesa can get 95% DR on shields AND health on top of their existing armor with little trouble?
Why is this OP, again?

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

is the result of DE’s continous incompetence at balancing weapons and mods

Maybe they don’t care, and that’s why there’s no balance. I also don’t think it’s super-wise to go devbashing.

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

ppl tell me Nullifiers are bad design

They are.

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

AD HOMINEM

Seems like you're no stranger to that as well. You're doing quite a bit of personal attacking there.

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Regarding Bosses: giving a Unit/Boss a amount of life which is reasonable should be a thing, adding unskippable cutscenes or disabling player powers SHOULD NOT

I agree, though I don’t know whether I would like your version of “reasonable.” I like the idea of boss phases where you can actively work towards your goal without just being a damage gate.
Lech Kril’s boss fight is almost-kinda-sorta a good example. If there was a way you could get him to consistently freeze himself after popping his tubes, it would be a good example. Thoughts?

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Bosses for MR20 players should have atleast 1 million life with the current balance

How do you define “bosses for MR20 players?” Also, those could totally still be oneshot.

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

DE need to set their priorities straight and fix the damage system

DE ain’t beholden to anyone, except maybe their investors. What, specifically, is broken about the damage system? Is enemy armor scaling a problem in your eyes?

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

do not completely F*** you up because of their self damage

I think they should continue to be strong on both players and enemies. The Kulstar is an amazing weapon and I love how it changes the way I play.

5 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

(which is also better handled as in warframe, you just slowly regain ammo and aren’t stuck without any ammo after shooting 2 times, albeit the Secure Penta has that covered)

wat

 

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The earlier incarnations of the game focused on a more vulnerable Tenno that overcame incredible odds in each mission through their own effort and miraculous abilities.

You're making me nostalgic! The new player experience actually still has a lot of that vibe.

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

These days, it feels like a joke when Lotus commends you on completing a mission “despite the odds” or whatever.

Most of what Lotus says sounds like a joke, though I agree that’s a particularly bad example.

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

 As DE started shotgunning content, powercreeping weapons, and pretending that Corrupted mods were never released for a while

Shotgunning content? How do you mean they forgot Corrupted mods exist?

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

that original vision kind of died and was replaced with a kind of whitewashed, ironic aesthetic with comical npcs, dogs, and memlord Ordis, among other things

I entirely agree. Warframe used to look like a dark game when played, even with a Santa-colored Rhino waving around a candy cane.

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

A return to the more interesting (both gameplay-wise and story-wise) previous aesthetic could do a lot for this game, even if certain players (and I say that loosely) will be upset at the loss of their ability to trivialize/automate all content.  

I agree that the game itself would be enhanced, but I fear that too many would leave the game over it. One reason a number of people have stated they like the game is how easy/quick doing alerts and such becomes after a certain point, allowing you to progress without needing to challenge yourself if you don’t feel like it.
I'd love it if I could make a mod of Warframe or something that brought it back to its roots, though.

[taiiat]

6 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Can you please stop (disagreeing with you?)

Regarding Bosses: giving a Unit/Boss a amount of life which is reasonable should be a thing, adding unskippable cutscenes or disabling player powers SHOULD NOT

Bosses for MR20 players should have atleast 1 million life with the current balance

sorry for having balanced a couple games before and also having watched hundreds of games dig their own graves and not entertaining people that follow the same footsteps with their own shovel.

reasonable Health doesn't exist as long as Players can turn off the game in no less than 6 ways at all times.
but what if a Mastery 20 Player isn't using one of the obnoxiously Overpowered Weapons? now it isn't reasonable for them. the problem isn't how much Health the Boss has, it's what the Player has.
not to mention that aforementioned, there's ways a single player could Kill that Boss in one or two shots. and more than a dozen if there's 4 Players.
so that still doesn't work.

besides, a Boss that is just a Bullet Sponge is considered one of the most boring possible bosses of the few common types with good reason. because the way you interact with the Boss - is you... basically don't.
it can be remedied if the Player is tightly clamped on their Equipment and numbers - but in Warframe, that's apparently not going to happen.

 

this is a binary choice. you can either have never ending 'muh progression', or gameplay that's fair for everyone, and doesn't have gameplay mechanics that leave something to be desired.
you can say otherwise, but you cannot have both. they are polar opposites of each other.

[Cool3303]

Remaining at the whole Oberon discussion:

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

I know how armor works, and that’s why I wanted to give Oberon that - especially since that gives him a source of DR that scales with enemies without utterly destroying any notion of balance.

As far as I remember it: I introduce my Idea->Archwizard wants it to be a damage tool->I specify why I think it would be good->2 People tell me it wouldn't be enough->I state some numbers ->You tell me it needs to scale->I use Mathhamer->You say it needs more OP?

I am kinda waiting for someone to tell me my concept would be good, or at the very least why it wouldn't work for Oberon in a variety of ways other than "Your intended armor is way too low"

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Regarding Bosses: giving a Unit/Boss a amount of life which is reasonable should be a thing, unskippable cutscenes or disabling player powers SHOULD NOT

I agree, though I don’t know whether I would like your version of “reasonable.”[...]

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

Bosses for MR20 players should have atleast 1 million life with the current balance

How do you define “bosses for MR20 players?” Also, those could totally still be oneshot.

"Some" Bosses scale up their level depending on the Mastery Level of the Players. This is very noticeable for Vor who easily goes from the lvl 10-20 intended for New players to 40 if a high MR player is in the squad.... I think it is capped right now... probably because someone did not want/try to spend the effort...

For a full squad of MR 20 players I would expect, for example Vor, to have up to 10 million health and a "safety" damage cap of 1 million max damage per hit (which can be easily hit with something silly like a lanka)

On the other hand his abilities should take longer to recharge and cast. The shield should either last until his ads are gone or only 2 seconds

While playing solo bosses should, at most, have like 200k health to make sure you can clear the area easily and the same goes if any players below MR 8 are in the group. If there are not HP should be able to soar high, scaling with MR

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

but what if a Mastery 20 Player isn't using one of the obnoxiously Overpowered Weapons? now it isn't reasonable for them. the problem isn't how much Health the Boss has, it's what the Player has.

Thats what solomode or grouping randomly would be for (since it is highly likely you get 1 person below MR8), so bosses would be scaled down and much much easier.... and with 3 other high MR player, 1 person is sure to have a OP weapon.

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

besides, a Boss that is just a Bullet Sponge is considered one of the most boring possible bosses of the few common types with good reason. because the way you interact with the Boss - is you... basically don't.

I rather would say that our bosses are already bullet sponges, most have few interesting abilities or animations... the only difference is, WF is broken so we can oneshot all the bulletsponges

3 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

9 hours ago, Cool3303 said:

(which is also better handled as in warframe, you just slowly regain ammo and aren’t stuck without any ammo after shooting 2 times, albeit the Secure Penta has that covered)

wat

Remember how the Ammo nerf made Penta unusable? and the Secura Penta which has a higher ammo cap?

I do...

Edited April 17, 2016 by Cool3303

[--Q--uaint]

15 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

I am kinda waiting for someone to tell me my concept would be good, or at the very least why it wouldn’t work for Oberon in a variety of ways other than “Your intended armor is way too low”

I think your concept is miles better than what we have now, but I think Hallowed Ground needs some serious other help to be really useful.

16 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

2 People tell me it wouldn’t be enough->You tell me it needs to scale

That’s what I was saying when I said it wouldn’t be enough. I still think he should have a scaling armor buff so he can’t trivialize lower content like Trinity can while still being a strong contender in the late game.

18 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

I use Mathhamer->You say it needs more OP?

Yes.

19 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

“Some” Bosses scale up their level depending on the Mastery Level Conclave Rank of the Players.

FTFY

22 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

Vor, to have up to 10 million health and a “safety” damage cap of 1 million max damage per hit (which can be easily hit with something silly like a lanka)

On the other hand his abilities should take longer to recharge and cast. The shield should either last until his ads are gone or only 2 seconds

Hmmm. That sounds pretty cool, but I want configurability. I don’t want to always have to deal with high-level bosses if I'm high MR and I do want to be able to solo him at full strength.

20 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

If there are not HP should be able to soar high, scaling with MR

I know at least one guy who is intentionally staying MR 0 while having gotten enough stuff to be ~MR17. This is a silly idea.

26 minutes ago, Cool3303 said:

Remember how the Ammo nerf made Penta unusable? and the Secura Penta which has a higher ammo cap?

I do…

Oh, yes. The reason I stopped using the Ogris. I still don’t really understand what you were actually saying there.

[RealPandemonium]

9 hours ago, ChronoEclipse said:

You're making me nostalgic! The new player experience actually still has a lot of that vibe.

Most of what Lotus says sounds like a joke, though I agree that’s a particularly bad example.

Shotgunning content? How do you mean they forgot Corrupted mods exist?

I entirely agree. Warframe used to look like a dark game when played, even with a Santa-colored Rhino waving around a candy cane.

I agree that the game itself would be enhanced, but I fear that too many would leave the game over it. One reason a number of people have stated they like the game is how easy/quick doing alerts and such becomes after a certain point, allowing you to progress without needing to challenge yourself if you don’t feel like it.
I'd love it if I could make a mod of Warframe or something that brought it back to its roots, though.

Making progression less dramatic and a little more smoothed could keep some of that early-game feeling of challenge even for veteran players.  I think DE will leave some OP options for those who need/want them,  and I'm willing to accept that as long as they don't cave to requests for more powercreep and more ridiculously overtuned content to justify that powercreep.

There was a time (mid-late 2014 comes to mind) where DE put balance and fine-tuning on the backburner and started churning out content.  We got Kubrows, Archwing, and Raids during this time.  The frame reworks of this time were generally not very [or outright ill-] thought-out, and mostly consisted of adopting popular forum suggestions over actually thinking hard about what they want the frame to be.  Ember's Fire Blast rework ended up alright in the end, but Oberon's revisions were literally a copy/pasted mishmash of forum suggestions.  Excalibur had it the worst; turning Radial Javelin into a generic radial nuke (instead of fixing its targeting and adding effects like damaging ragdoll and impaled-to-terrain CC to incentivize varied and strategic use,) helped to bring about Vivergate and cemented Excalibur as a meta factory-farming tool.  What eventually replaced RJ is also a far-overtuned disaster that promotes mindless spam even more than what it replaced.  Things like the Saryn rework and Inaros' design show that DE is paying attention again, but much damage was done during that period of massive growth for Warframe.  

While Damage 2.0 worked out OK initially (we see now that it pretty much failed since we still rely on armor bandaids in regular content,) the rollout of Corrupted mods seems to have had no supervision whatsoever, like DE set it and forgot it.  A ton of things got broken builds that took the powers way beyond their original scope, but DE didn't seem to notice until the builds had been around for years with no changes.  That's what I mean about them forgetting that Corrupted mods became a thing.  

I have my doubts about both the number of players that would quit and the amount of profitability that Warframe would lose if it committed to rolling back the insanity that we currently deal with.  The vocal forum faction that decries any attempt to do this is far from representative of the playerbase as a whole.  As usual, only a small minority of players use the forums remotely regularly.

Edited April 17, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Aquasurge]

5 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

I have my doubts about both the number of players that would quit and the amount of profitability that Warframe would lose if it committed to rolling back the insanity that we currently deal with.  The vocal forum faction that decries any attempt to do this is far from representative of the playerbase as a whole.  As usual, only a small minority of players use the forums remotely regularly.

i did the math and it's 3%. it somehow reminds me of a sentinel weapon's terrible crit/status chance.......

oh and by the way @Archwizard, Scott confirmed an ES change you mentioned in the OP on twitter

https://twitter.com/GooseDE/with_replies

 

forums.warframe.com/topic/635135-volts-shield-adding-depth-to-something-stationary/ …

Edited April 17, 2016 by Aquasurge

[--Q--uaint]

3 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

i did the math and it’s 3%

lolwut

3 minutes ago, Aquasurge said:

it somehow reminds me of a sentinel weapon’s terrible crit/status chance…….

Ever heard of the Sweeper Prime? Or the Vulklok?