Wouldn't The Tenno Primes Actually Be "bad Guys"....?

[Brimir]

It is also possible that the Stalker used some means to stay alive for hundreds of years despite not entering cryo sleep and went mad, and we shouldn't take his word for anything.

 

Haha, yeah that might be a possibility. If it is though, it might just be one of the biggest "middle fingers" ever given to a playerbase by a developer, ever.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Brimir

[Otaiken]

Actually, I think that the Infested greatly supports the idea of the Sentients being AIs.

 

 - The Infested are undoubtedly organic, making them also immune to the Sentients' control. If the Sentients were AIs capable of controlling artificial beings, something like the Infested would make a good counter against them.

 

The problem is that the Orokin were careless and didn't realize the consequences of releasing the Infestation upon the galaxy. Like the creation of the Tenno it would've been an act out of great desperation.

 

That's true. But if Infested were essentially neutral in their attempt to destroy, shouldn't they pose great threat to Sentients too? Or did Infested ignore them since they were not organic and hence they couldn't absorb them into their hivemind?

 

So in the end did Tenno save Orokin from the Sentients or the Infested? Since Infested are still around, it doesn't seem like such a victory to celebrate defeat of Sentients while Infested still rampage around the system.

 

BTW the lore changes often. In early closed beta the official lore was that Orokin unleashed the infestation and it backfired. So they said F*** it and left the Solar system followed by Sentients that chased after them. That was of course changed replaced by the current collapse of the empire. Possibly to give some meaning to Stalker and find a connection between Tenno and Orokin, since that lore was pre-void and Stalker both.

 

So I'm not sure whether sentients left or are supposed to be destroyed in this current lore.

Edited March 21, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Brimir]

I think that the Infested were the result of the Orokins initial experimentation with the virus. Or perhaps the Infested were the default form in which they found the virus.

 

Either case, it doesn't seem like the Orokin were too concerned about the Infested rampaging through the galaxy. The Sentients (and later the Tenno) were much more pressing matters.

[Llyssa]

Much as I may agree with you in other areas I'm afraid we can't rely on DS. It is a spiritual precursor only, we can't rely on any specific part as being Canon in Warframe. Check the livestreams I've been through every one, and while there are references to specific parts there is never a "Dark Sector happened in the past of Warframe" comment

Check again. They specifically said, in livestream, that it is part of the lore of Warframe. Not a "spiritual", but actually part of the lore. Sometime around last october/november.

 

As far as we know, the Orokin Empire encompassed all the human beings in existence at the time.

Again, no, we don't. We have absolutely, positively, no reason to believe this, in any way, shape, or form.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Llyssa

[Brimir]

Again, no, we don't. We have absolutely, positively, no reason to believe this, in any way, shape, or form.

 

Nor do we have absolutely, positively, no reason to believe that there were other human factions around at the time.

 

The game currently only mentions the Orokin Empire, making it (at the moment) the most likely option.

[OniDax]

Actually, I think that the Infested greatly supports the idea of the Sentients being AIs.

 

 - The Infested are undoubtedly organic, making them also immune to the Sentients' control. If the Sentients were AIs capable of controlling artificial beings, something like the Infested would make a good counter against them.

 

The problem is that the Orokin were careless and didn't realize the consequences of releasing the Infestation upon the galaxy. Like the creation of the Tenno it would've been an act out of great desperation.

 

No, it doesn't, if you think of what Sentient means. It is much more likely that both the Sentients and the Orokin were human.

[gnat6]

Check again. They specifically said, in livestream, that it is part of the lore of Warframe. Not a "spiritual", but actually part of the lore. Sometime around last october/november.

 

In livestream 21 or 22 they specifically said that darksector is not part of warframe lore.

[Brimir]

No, it doesn't, if you think of what Sentient means. It is much more likely that both the Sentients and the Orokin were human.

 

Actually... that's a pretty damn good theory! If I'm correctly understanding the implications of what you mean:

 

The Orokin Emperors used their mind-control/telepathy to placate the population.

The Sentients would be humans free of their influence, rebels of sorts.

The Orokin sent the Tenno to exterminate them and in the process the Tenno went turncoat, perhaps after learning the "truth" of how the Emperors control the people.

Upon returning they struck down the Orokin Emperors to free the people.

 

Again, that makes sense. It does, however, make you wonder about the Stalker and his undying loyalty to the Orokin Emperors. Is he still mind-controlled?

[NevanChambers]

Much as I may agree with you in other areas I'm afraid we can't rely on DS. It is a spiritual precursor only, we can't rely on any specific part as being Canon in Warframe. Check the livestreams I've been through every one, and while there are references to specific parts there is never a "Dark Sector happened in the past of Warframe" comment

Hayden Tenno was the first Tenno. That statement, paraphrased though it may be, does seem to greatly dispute you 're assertation that darksector is not warframes history.

Edited March 21, 2014 by NevanChambers

[Liminal]

Secondly, the voids and the derelicts--NONE of it looks meaningful to human eyes. Endless halls of white with gold trim, with little to no apparent function or purpose to any of it. Why build a single place made of endless mazes of marble? Why build millions? Orokin design is completely pointless from a human perspective--as one person put it, "it looks like an endless string of hotel lobbies". Either we have to believe the level designers are terrible at their job, or the orokin experience doesn't match the human experience at all.

Considering none of the other tilesets looks... "realistically functional", I'd be inclined to believe in the third option: it's designed as a map for an action game.

 

And the Orokin being human is the strongest theory right now. The only "aliens" that have been introduced so far are Desert Skates and Kubrows (soon). Both of which are animalistic. Everything else comes from humans so far.

(Even then, those animals may even be genetically modified beings descended from Earth creatures for all we know.)

 

We have very very little hard evidence for any aspect of the lore, so (speculation aside) the wisest thing would be to use the most probable theories and not read too much into obscure details presented in the game; the only sources of lore so far have been the codex and events, there's no precedent that digging around maps, enemy weapons and whatnot will provide useful (or valid!) information.

[Darkmoone1]

Not to be the negative sort, but all this topic shows is that we barely advanced in knowing anything about the world we play in between today and months ago. All the things the new codex logs brought in were more questions than answers and the answers given to us were very small fragments of the truth.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Darkmoone1

[NevanChambers]

Not to be the negative sort, but all this topic shows is that we barely advanced in knowing anything about the world we play in between today and months ago. All the things the new codex logs brought in were more questions than answers and the answers given to us were very small fragments of the truth.

Yep this most definately.

[SilentMobius]

Hayden Tenno was the first Tenno. That statement, paraphrased though it may be, does seem to greatly dispute you 're assertation that darksector is not warframes history.

 

Hayden Tenno is a name, and if DE had made the game the wanted to make he would have been killing proto-Grineer on a ship.

 

Remember that Warframe is DE's opportunity to tell the story they _wanted_ to tell when their publishers forced than to make a contemporary game. For all we know The Warframe "Hayden Tenno" is a completely different individual, much like "Frost" was originally going to be a shape-shifting form for Hayden, but didn't appear in DS.

 

All we have is a name, that name _doesn't_ implicitly carry any lore along with it.

 

I'm not saying any one part of DS should be ignored, but we should understand that unless a specific part _is_ confirmed (like a name) we can't just assume everything attached via DS comes with it.

 

Though, Rebecca finally asked my question in the devstream, interesting that they are deliberately holding back on even the most basic of questions. I'm curious what lore we are going to get next week.

Edited March 21, 2014 by SilentMobius

[LunarTemplar]

We killed them ALL.

 

I highly doubt that.

 

Did we kill everyone needed to run the Orokin government, yes, undoubtedly, and probably wiped out a few other high ranking people as well that weren't government officials but deeply tied to them. I'll buy that no problem.

 

The civilian populous? yeah, no, not buying it. Your gonna have to provide something better then the exaggerated account of an eye witness who's had centuries to fester in hatred if you want me to believe we went out of our way to cut down the 9to5ers and soccer moms of the Orokin Empire.

[OniDax]

I highly doubt that.

 

Did we kill everyone needed to run the Orokin government, yes, undoubtedly, and probably wiped out a few other high ranking people as well that weren't government officials but deeply tied to them. I'll buy that no problem.

 

The civilian populous? yeah, no, not buying it. Your gonna have to provide something better then the exaggerated account of an eye witness who's had centuries to fester in hatred if you want me to believe we went out of our way to cut down the 9to5ers and soccer moms of the Orokin Empire.

 

Doubt there were 9to5ers and soccer moms... You know what we have to believe it? The fact that 1) this is a game, not real life, 2) everything that happened in this game is defined by the lore, and nothing else, 3) we cannot assume that Stalker's codex is exaggerated. I'm sure there were humans that survived. Stalker says nothing about killing civilians. It were the cold and gold Emperors who were killed. I'm quite sure that the human populations that remained eventually formed the Grineer Empire and the Corpus. Yes, their ancestors would have been under the Orokin. You don't need to get testy (that's what your post conveys).

 

Again, why are we assuming the Orokin are some high race of beings that have descendants? From all indications, they're human. After their fall (yes, the killing of the leadership, maybe a Roman-style Senate or something of that sort), the rest of the human population who had all been under this empire moved on, lived their lives.

[MegaSnail]

There is 0 logic behind this, op...

[NevanChambers]

Hayden Tenno is a name, and if DE had made the game the wanted to make he would have been killing proto-Grineer on a ship.

 

Remember that Warframe is DE's opportunity to tell the story they _wanted_ to tell when their publishers forced than to make a contemporary game. For all we know The Warframe "Hayden Tenno" is a completely different individual, much like "Frost" was originally going to be a shape-shifting form for Hayden, but didn't appear in DS.

 

All we have is a name, that name _doesn't_ implicitly carry any lore along with it.

 

I'm not saying any one part of DS should be ignored, but we should understand that unless a specific part _is_ confirmed (like a name) we can't just assume everything attached via DS comes with it.

 

Though, Rebecca finally asked my question in the devstream, interesting that they are deliberately holding back on even the most basic of questions. I'm curious what lore we are going to get next week.

This theory is brought up a lot and I find it silly. Not necesarrially wrong at least I can't say one way or the other on the matter. So maybe it's true Hayden Tenno is just a name, but that same arguement points out how silly it is. If DE didnt want to connect it to dark sector why use the name that was established in that game at all. That statement never needed to be made, nor did that particular name, again established as the hero of a previous game that actually exsisted, need to be used but they did.

If we want to play the "last thing said" game Steve said in chat after the prime time before the last that connections to darksector would be coming. Beginning of next month actually. Yeah they could be referring to a concept trailer rather than an actual game they made but if that's true I give up.

Edited March 21, 2014 by NevanChambers

[Edgedemon]

It's entirely plausible that we didn't rest until every last orokin was dead, and that's WHY all of this expensive stuff is left completely empty and totally in-tact.

 

not really, after all someone had to put us into cryo-sleep.

 

i think  at least a group of tenno did rebel against the orokin empire, which let to them all punished.

 

considering how tenno see themselves as honorable warriors they may have actually enter cryo-sleep willingly, like when a lord asked a samurai for Seppuku

 

[SilentMobius]

If DE didnt want to connect it to dark sector why use the name that was established in that game at all. That statement never needed to be made, nor did that particular name, again established as the hero of a previous game that actually exsisted, need to be used but they did.

If we want to play the last thing said game Steve said in chat after the prime time before the last that connections to darksector would be coming. Beginning of next month actually. Yeah they could be referring to a concept trailer rather than an actual game they made but if that's true I give up.

 

I expect a lot of concepts that come from Dark Sector, lots of references, but not anything that assumes the story of DS is canon to Warframe.

 

DE made a game to was _not_ the game they wanted to make, it was a chopped-up time shifter version of the story they wanted to tell.

 

_This_ game could easily just take the story parts they _wanted_ to use, that may bear minimal resemblance to DS as released.

 

This happens all the time in Anime, a "reboot" happens and they use some of the same characters and tell somewhat the same story, sometimes even with a drastic S#&$ in time or setting. Look at Gal Force, Evangelion or Macross vs Macross: Do You Remember Love.

 

Hell you could even liken Dark Sector as the "Robotech" to Warframe's "Macross", "Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross" and "Genesis Climber Mospeda"

[SilentMobius]

not really, after all someone had to put us into cryo-sleep.

 

i think  at least a group of tenno did rebel against the orokin empire, which let to them all punished.

 

considering how tenno see themselves as honorable warriors they may have actually enter cryo-sleep willingly, like when a lord asked a samurai for Seppuku

 

Lore-rip from U8 had this text clip in it:

Do you hear that my Tenno? The silence of tyrants who fell by your blade? Your sacrifice is complete and you should rest. The cryo-chamber will wipe away the unpleasantness of what has passed. When you are called to wake, it must be because the system is once again out of balance. Perform your duties then, as you have now.

 

Until we meet again,

Lotus

[Finn_and_Jake01]

The Tenno didn't kill *everyone*.

 

They slaughtered the Tenno Emperors during a ceremony, which caused the Orokin Empire to fall apart. They did not personally hunt down and kill every single Orokin around.

I think LilithLovett means it is no excuse to kill the emperors and every grineer and corpus we encounter

[SilentMobius]

Brimir keeps stating that the Tenno didn't kill all the Orokin like it's a fact, so I think I'll give my version of "most likely given what we know"

 

1. The Orokin are fundamentally different compared to "humanity".

2. 99% of the Orokin Empire were vassal humans, ruled by the "Cold and Gold" Emperors.

3. Only the Orokin themselves understood their tech.

4. The Sentients Could use _any_ hard-tech against the user.

5. The Tenno succeed because the Warframe abilities uses physics-defying void power hence it was untouchable by the Sentients.

6. The Tenno found out about the infestation experiments and humanity being used as raw materials (For Tenno and Infestation alike)

8. The Tenno were waiting for the 9th drumbeat because the attack was not _just_ in the Arena, it was a synchronized strike across the entire empire, eliminating almost all the Orokin, hence the derelicts. Those left in real-space were eventually taken over by the infestation. (In-game lore states that the Orokin derelicts outside of the void were being swept over by the infestation at that point in the game. Rather than the infestation being the cause)

9 Tenno pursued the remaining Orokin.

10. Damaged Warframes were replaced with Tenno-crafted ones, Minimizing hard-to-find Orokin cells and Forma 

11. Lotus sends the Tenno into Cryosleep and they forget.

[Brimir]

Brimir keeps stating that the Tenno didn't kill all the Orokin like it's a fact

 

There's no evidence for the Tenno doing anything except entering Cryo-sleep after the assassinations of the Orokin Emperors.

 

Everything else is speculation.

 

EDIT: And no, this is not me "stating as fact" that nothing happened. This is me "stating as fact" that we couldn't possible know what happened.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Brimir

[OniDax]

Brimir keeps stating that the Tenno didn't kill all the Orokin like it's a fact, so I think I'll give my version of "most likely given what we know"

 

1. The Orokin are fundamentally different compared to "humanity".

2. 99% of the Orokin Empire were vassal humans, ruled by the "Cold and Gold" Emperors.

3. Only the Orokin themselves understood their tech.

4. The Sentients Could use _any_ hard-tech against the user.

5. The Tenno succeed because the Warframe abilities uses physics-defying void power hence it was untouchable by the Sentients.

6. The Tenno found out about the infestation experiments and humanity being used as raw materials (For Tenno and Infestation alike)

8. The Tenno were waiting for the 9th drumbeat because the attack was not _just_ in the Arena, it was a synchronized strike across the entire empire, eliminating almost all the Orokin, hence the derelicts. Those left in real-space were eventually taken over by the infestation. (In-game lore states that the Orokin derelicts outside of the void were being swept over by the infestation at that point in the game. Rather than the infestation being the cause)

9 Tenno pursued the remaining Orokin.

10. Damaged Warframes were replaced with Tenno-crafted ones, Minimizing hard-to-find Orokin cells and Forma 

11. Lotus sends the Tenno into Cryosleep and they forget.

 

99% of this is speculation. Here's all we know:

 

Excalibur

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed. We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend.

Excalibur was the first.

- Orokin 'Warframe' Archives

 

Stalker

Some have walked these desolate worlds while you have slept. Some like me. I remember what you did. I remember the day.

The Tenno appeared at the Terminus, gleaming and victorious. Our cold and gold Emperors, breathless, bathed you in savior's silk. Then came the sound. Across all our worlds, all at once, the ceremonial Naga drums. A royal salute to the honored Tenno. Ten solemn beats to declare the suffering was over. I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. With each beat terror began to crush my throat. The Tenno were not stoic and silent. They were waiting. They were poised. I tried to call out but only a strangled whisper escaped.

 

When the ninth beat rang a torrent of blood filled the stadium, loosed by Tenno blades. The drums, the Empire, fell silent forever.

 

Now I hunt, dividing your numbers. Watching from that dark place, cataloging your sins, I am the ghost of retribution. You may forget but you are not innocent.

 

 

Orokin and the Sentients were in a war.

The Sentients used the Orokin's weapons against them.

Orokin experimented with Technocyte.

Orokin took the few who returned from the Void, called them Tenno, crafted the Prime Warframes around them, used them to fight the Sentients.

Tenno were victorious, celebrated by the Orokin Empire.

At the ninth beat of the drum, while the low Guardians watched, the Tenno turned on the Orokin in the Stadium, killing them until "the Empire fell silent forever"

The Tenno slept after that, while the Stalker waited and watched, hunting the Tenno to reduce their numbers because of their betrayal.

 

That's all we know from in-game lore (all of that there is from Stalker's and Excalibur's codex pages)

 

Here's what we may know based on the pre-U9 datamined leak that showed in-game text:

 

Directive

Do you hear that my Tenno? The silence of tyrants who fell by

your blade? Your sacrifice is complete and you should rest. The

cryo-chamber will wipe away the unpleasantness of what has

passed. When you are called to wake, it must be because the

system is once again out of balance. Perform your duties then, as

you have now.

Until we meet again,

Lotus

 

Lotus ordered the Tenno to sleep after killing their tyrants (a reference to the Orokin). I say ordered, because it is referred to as a directive.

 

 

What we speculate based on Ember's codex page:

 

Ember

Three figures waited behind a simple table. Their attention on a single chair, bathed in light. An old woman's voice from the shadow: 'Send her in'. Across the room a security officer, stern and plain, opened the door. The outline of a young woman appeared at the door. She hesitated, but only for an instant, then crossed the room and sat.

There was a gasp as the light hit her face. Her right eye was bright and blinking, but her left was a greasy slit. Her skin had been burned moon-white. Her mouth was a sagging gash without lips or expression. Her military beret was pulled snug over a scarred and hairless scalp.

 

The old voice: 'Your name is Kaleen.' Kaleen nodded. 'You were the principal investigator of the Zariman?' Kaleen's voice was a jagged whisper, a rigid face. 'Yes.'

 

Kaleen coughed, straightened: 'The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates. Mechanical failure. I notified families and filled a report with the inspectors. Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case.'

 

'But you reopened the case, days later.'

 

'I didn't believe it myself until I stepped aboard the ship. It was completely intact, full environmental, as if it had never left.'

 

'And the crew was gone.'

 

'Not exactly.' Kaleen hesitated. 'We thought it was empty but we began to find...' Her face twitched at remembered pain, 'We began to find children hiding in the ship.'

 

'And that is when you violated procedure?'

 

Kaleen bowed her head, a tear welling in her sightless eye. 'They were children. They were afraid. They needed comfort.'

 

'So you broke quarantine and this happened to you.'

 

There was silence as Kaleen touched her face, 'So what have you done with them?'

 

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on military ship?'

 

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

 

Orokin are the military, of which Kaleen is a member.

Orokin put children on a military ship, sent to the Void.

Ship is called the Zariman, returns from the Void.

Sent to "investigate", Kaleen discovers the ship intact, but children on the ship.

Kaleen is burned by one of the children after getting close.

Her actions break quarantine.

The children are most likely infected. If they aren't infected, then they're somehow corrupted by the Void. Either way, there is a quarantine of anyone infected (not sure what the connection is between the infected and the Void, as there's no technocyte in the Orokin Towers that are in the Void).

Kaleen is taken away, and the military deny that they violated procedure by putting children on the Zariman (in other words, they're denying it because admitting to it would mean they broke procedure)

 

Ember's codex seems to match up with Excalibur's where the Orokin take the twisted few who return from the Void. If this is indeed the same, then the children are the twisted few, and the military indeed is the Orokin. If that's the case, the Orokin are human. It seems likely that this is the case.

 

Because of this, I speculate that the Orokin are human. I also speculate that the sentients are human. Sentient can't refer to AI or robots. And they aren't just animals, given that they're in a war. So I speculate that the defining difference between the 'cold and gold' Orokin Emperors and the Sentients is sentience. Sentience means, in essence, subjective feeling. The Orokin probably suppress the emotional aspects of the brain, so that they can act and react objectively. The Sentients would obviously not have limited themselves in this fashion. The limiting of any subjectivity probably makes the Orokin make logical, rational decisions without regard to emotion, including certain moral/ethical choices. However, this 1) may be limited only to Orokin leadership, or 2) it's a choice that the Orokin make instead of some biological limitation, seeing as Kaleen clearly shows compassion for the children. The latter is probably the most likely scenario - the Orokin make decisions and live according to reason and logic, whereas the Sentients act like the rest of us, making use of emotion.

 

All that is speculation. The only facts we know are where I specifically say "Here's all we know".

Edited March 22, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[ThePresident777]

You mean

?