Game Becoming To Much Of A "pay To Win" Type Game.

[someguy216]

I know its not just me that thinks this but the game seems to be far to much "pay to win" because firstly most items can only be purchased with platinum and the few items that you can buy with credits are usually really expensive so you have to spend ages grinding, and then comparing the gear you can buy with real money to that of the starting weapons is ridiculous, sure starting gear should be poor quality but not a diffrence of taking 10 shots to kill an enemy compared to 1 shot to kill an enemy with the same type of weapon. Lastly the thing that adds most diversity to this game is getting new warframes but they are all ridiculously expensive, as in about £10, which for a game that hasnt been officially released is abit cheap. I really enjoy this game but if it goes to much more pay to win im very quickly gonna start hating this game.

[Venarge]

only be purchased with plat? It seems you havent even looked at the whole market. please. EVERY item is obtainable through playing. So please. Go and look at the whole market before making these kind of threads....

Blueprints are obtainable for almost every weapon/ frame for credits.... This thread is invalid

Edited March 31, 2013 by Venarge

[G3rman]

Just about everything in the market, outside of cosmetics and catalyst/reactors, can be either be bought directly with credits or you can buy the blueprints for credits and grind them out. That is the primary way players get their stuff. If you want to be a free player completely you have to work for it, just like any other F2P game.

As far as I'm concerned, you cannot call a cooperative title pay to win. Pay2Convenience, that's about all you will get from me.

[Satori_Mind]

It really does look a little daunting and unfair until you get in there and try it yourself. I built my own Frost warframe from blueprints and credits. Going after that boss for the blueprints got me a new contacts! After a total of 7 or 8 hours played and the help of the wiki, I had all 4 blueprints along with the materials and credits needed to build the frame. That left only the 3 1/2 days building time! It feels like an accomplishment and I enjoyed it.

[AdultHero]

Even catalysts/reactors you will get over time from ? alert missions and the 7-day login reward. I've gotten 3 reactor blueprints and 1 catalyst blueprint so far and I saw a glimpse of a reactor in the 7-day login too, and I've only been playing for 2 weeks.

[RedEye88]

Yea too many complain without trying, they see all is easy to get with platinum and think pay 2 win i tought the same, but this is not the case trust me.

Except those catalysts and reactors which are a bit for the luckers to get them but wait i played for about 12 days now and i got 3 reactors and 2 catalysts blueprints.

As for credits you wouldnt believe how easy is to get some,theres a defense mission infestation that drops about 10+ mods per run(up to wave 10) +1 bonus when claim and exit,1 rare mode alone is 800+ credit,with the rares 5 value 1200.

Just this other day played till wave 15 very hard i ended up with about 30+ mods valued at 30k+ credits in less than 30 mins.

You cannot understand unless you get in there and really play hard a week or more.

Also alerts with ? are a must do as a free player.

[Ced23Ric]

There are only three things that can only be acquired with Platinum: Cosmetics, Omni Ammo, Inventory Slots. Everything else can be played for.

[Aerensiniac]

I know its not just me that thinks this but the game seems to be far to much "pay to win" because firstly most items can only be purchased with platinum and the few items that you can buy with credits are usually really expensive so you have to spend ages grinding, and then comparing the gear you can buy with real money to that of the starting weapons is ridiculous, sure starting gear should be poor quality but not a diffrence of taking 10 shots to kill an enemy compared to 1 shot to kill an enemy with the same type of weapon. Lastly the thing that adds most diversity to this game is getting new warframes but they are all ridiculously expensive, as in about £10, which for a game that hasnt been officially released is abit cheap. I really enjoy this game but if it goes to much more pay to win im very quickly gonna start hating this game.

The fact that you can grind together the gear that money can buy is a huge step already.

In a lot of games, there are items that simply cannot be obtained via any other method than cash money dollar.

Conclusively i disagree with you. The current situation is a hundred thousand times better. No matter what ppl buy, you can work it together yourself.

Yes it takes time, but you can do it, and that is what matters.

[SoulEchelon]

> Comes in, reads the OP's post, gets ready to rebuttal the sh~~ out of it.

> Sees literally everyone else doing so and making great points.

[MrNasher]

I felt the same as the thread starter... and thats coz it's not clear how you can build items rather than just purchasing them.

It wasnt until i read this thread that i even understood that is the way the developers intend non-paying players to increase their equipment and was just about to pack in playing due to the expense.

It would help a lot if it was more clear during play what dropped items are and how to collect them, seems rather hit n miss to me, especially in the hectic rush to keep up with faster players.

[FPSNex]

I don't understand who are you paying to win against?

[fauxhb]

I don't understand who are you paying to win against?

this :D

come on, i'm a non spending player (unfortunately) and i'm quite satisfied. yes, it's a grind, but there's enjoyable gameplay, which makes it not frustrating at all.

well when i'm playing i'm enjoying it. despite of all items i could buy with platinum right away. i like working for my rewards.

maybe it's borderlands 2 and fallout 3 which made me this way, of course :D "collect everything"

soooo, no, it is pretty balanced for a free player. you won't get any coolest stuff in a day or two, but that's why you will come the day after that to continue. or won't, if you just dislike the game.

[charleon]

come on, i'm a non spending player (unfortunately) and i'm quite satisfied. yes, it's a grind, but there's enjoyable gameplay, which makes it not frustrating at all.

well when i'm playing i'm enjoying it. despite of all items i could buy with platinum right away. i like working for my rewards.

maybe it's borderlands 2 and fallout 3 which made me this way, of course :D "collect everything"

soooo, no, it is pretty balanced for a free player. you won't get any coolest stuff in a day or two, but that's why you will come the day after that to continue. or won't, if you just dislike the game.

A grind not so much its not like you have to farm for an week (depening on the hours you play a week afcourse) mostly only really spefic items drop at certain area's. But you always get something usefull (95% I'd say). Since the minimum drop for a boss is (off the top of my head) a rare fusion core.

But i will agree that certain spefic items are harder to obtain.

And yes EVERYTHING execpt for skins, colors and visuel are payment only.

[fauxhb]

they even make sales for color palettes, btw. i'm using my easter set and i know there were some similar sales in the past (stuff for 1 credit).

that's pretty nice of them.

[neKroMancer]

Huh, another week, another P2W topic from a player who miserably failed to browse beyond the first page of the cash shop.

There're 5 pages worth of item. Must be pretty hard to find something in there.

[kaizoku222]

There are two things wrong with the "counter arguments" that this isn't a p2w game, and I assert that it is.

One, people are saying "because you can get it without paying, it's not p2w". This is an incorrect view. How much time it takes to attain the item, how much luck is involved, how many other resources are required to complete the item, etc. These all determine how feasible getting the item without paying is. Getting weapons, most mods, and credits ranges from reasonable to bordering on too grindy for high level mods. Catalysts, frame BP's, certain mods (getting certain mods to 10 ranks) have a huge grind that's very luck based, and these are more of what the game's progression is based on. Then there are things that are cash shop only, colors and slots specifically. On top of this the direct purchase of potency is availible through mod packs and credit conversion. Equipment that matters most for progression and potency is placed far out of reach and given a luck factor, and now nearly all of our character's potency is reliant on catalysts and mods. This clamps progression intentionally to monitize the game, any game that makes design choices for monetary reasons over game-play reasons is pay2win.

But people say "This isn't PvP, and cannot be pay to win by definition". This is also incorrect, every game has a "win" condition and every player plays to attain it. In PvP games killing other players is the goal, in MMO's getting the best gear to take down the strongest enemies is the goal, this is also the goal in Warframe. The goal is to get the frames you want, the weapons you want, and to make them as powerful as you can. So look at where out potency comes from and how much of that you can buy. You can buy frames, you can buy weapons, but most importantly, you can buy catalysts. Catalysts account for 50% of a character's potency now since the removal of passives. While you can't buy mods directly, you can buy nearly everything that comprises the win condition in this game.

[f3llyn]

Well to me, pay to win imples you are paying to gain an advantage you can't get through just playing the game. That isn't happening here as nothing you pay reall money for that actually makes you stronger can't be gotten in the game by just playing.

When I first started playing around 4 months ago now I felt different about it because the alert system was on the fritz and was giving us "?" alerts only every 2 or 3 days at best. But that's all fixed now so while I still don't like the alert system it is admittedly incomplete.

Some one else said it in this thread. At most it's pay for convenience.

Edited April 1, 2013 by f3llyn

[neKroMancer]

@Kaizoku

One problem with the P2W argument is the Direct purchase of potency, buying mod pack, is subjected to RNG. Credit conversion is a convenience. F2P games are based on grinding for free players and elimination of grinding for paid players. It has been and will always be like this in F2P games. It's just an economy model which allow he company to make profit from the product.

About the 'Win' scenario. 4 uncharged frames can play Pluto with some teamwork. The new mod system make catalyst/reactor less of a obstruction to the progressing system. Now you have access to frames' most useful ability from the beginning without the need of reactor and weapon can be powerful without catalyst, the win scenario is practically easy to attain for all players. However, the only thing left is when player try to solo Pluto - the catalyst and reactor are needed to maximize the chance of surviving. ( I did Pluto with 4 clanmates all of our frames weren't even pass level 15, it's hard but doable)

Your argument are not throughly well thought. No game in the market offers everything for free.

[PoisonedTea]

only be purchased with plat? It seems you havent even looked at the whole market. please. EVERY item is obtainable through playing. So please. Go and look at the whole market before making these kind of threads....

Blueprints are obtainable for almost every weapon/ frame for credits.... This thread is invalid

not to forget that some weapons you cant even buy with money

[kaizoku222]

Well to me, pay to win imples you are paying to gain an advantage you can't get through just playing the game. That isn't happening here as nothing you pay reall money for that actually makes you stronger can't be gotten in the game by just playing.

When I first started playing around 4 months ago now I felt different about it because the alert system was on the fritz and was giving us "?" alerts only every 2 or 3 days at best. But that's all fixed now so while I still don't like the alert system it is admittedly incomplete.

Some one else said it in this thread. At most it's pay for convenience.

Catalysts instantly give you double the potency you have. The *only* facet of this game that everyone has to progress through is the RNG grind for mods and the credit sink for fusing them. Every other facet of the game you can buy, if you can buy things that mitigate most of the point of playing the game, it's pay2win. Yes, the act of playing the game is "fun", but the goal is to get the things I mentioned, and it's flat out not good game design to allow so much of these things to be buyable. You pay to have an advantage over other players, skipping grinds, having more potency, having higher potential potency, those are all advantages that hand you the goal of the game.

@Kaizoku

One problem with the P2W argument is the Direct purchase of potency, buying mod pack, is subjected to RNG. Credit conversion is a convenience. F2P games are based on grinding for free players and elimination of grinding for paid players. It has been and will always be like this in F2P games. It's just an economy model which allow he company to make profit from the product.

About the 'Win' scenario. 4 uncharged frames can play Pluto with some teamwork. The new mod system make catalyst/reactor less of a obstruction to the progressing system. Now you have access to frames' most useful ability from the beginning without the need of reactor and weapon can be powerful without catalyst, the win scenario is practically easy to attain for all players. However, the only thing left is when player try to solo Pluto - the catalyst and reactor are needed to maximize the chance of surviving. ( I did Pluto with 4 clanmates all of our frames weren't even pass level 15, it's hard but doable)

Your argument are not throughly well thought. No game in the market offers everything for free.

Saying "F2P games are like this because they have to be" isn't correct. There are plenty of F2P games and cash shops that don't function like this and still make money. If warframe's cash shop was entirely cosmetic or contained nothing but sidegrades that you could get in-game, it would still make money. You're not giving a real reason why the game to be designed like this, you're just saying "It is because it is", which is a bad argument.

As for your second point, I already said what the win condition is. I didn't say it was "being able to beat pluto with 4 people", I said that it was attaining the frames you want, with the weapons you want, and making them as stong as the system allows. I also said the *only* part of progression the game has that everyone has to participate in is the mod grind. Is that what we want? The entire game to be based around mod grinding that's RNG and has nothing to do with the level of the enemies we kill? As it is you can pay to get nearly everything you want in the game, after such a player gets those things they'll grind mods for a bit, get bored, and leave because they got what they wanted. They got the win condition, they attained all the progression there was for them to get, for that reason this is non sustainable as both a business model and a game design.

Edited April 1, 2013 by kaizoku222

[__Kanade__]

I'm kinda getting to the point where I'm just gonna fork over the money and buy Frost upfront, have yet to get one of his blueprints. I only do Ceres now that I have a much more durable frame, I've had just the one Excaliber frame for so long that I'm ready to just go ahead an buy Frost.

Other players have better luck with the RNG then I do if they can just craft frames left and right.

Edited April 1, 2013 by __Kanade__

[Synol]

Well actually with the mod pack you don't even need to grind for mods. If you drop enough cash on the game. Experience for your warframe, guns and rank are the only things you can't buy. But since you can A. Join games and afk experience B. Buy everything else and just faceroll defense missions with said gear, there's not really any challenge to that either.

[shoudra]

True BPs for items are RNG sometimes you have good luck and sometimes bad. The problem with the P2W argument in this game is not of its PVE focus but, the mere fact a lot of new players think the new frames are "end-game" the game isn't complete, endgame "as of now" is getting stuff to rank 30. Mod grinding? It sucks yes it's rng but, if you feel inclined try chancing it on one of the packs. Being able to use a hek and shoot everything in 1-2 shots? sure I guess. Can you get far in this game with just a catalyst and a beginner frame for now? Yes, a lot. Until Mastery ranks means something everyone gets to 4 for heck and you don't need catalysts for that. Mastery ranks take the amount of exp per weapon level and adds it. I really hate the game being incomplete but, that's what it is be patient and wait for actual endgame to appear. Take a break and if you feel so inclined give constructive feedback.

[kaizoku222]

If we aren't currently exposed to what the "end game" is, I'm not confident at all in DE to create it, have it be entirely different than how it is now, and balance it before the game needs to be released. If the end game isn't going to be grinding mods and BP's while waiting for a random catalyst alert to pop up, then what is? I don't see the game changing much in terms of goals from here to release.

[shoudra]

The game currently doesn't have a deadline for "Release". So, they are allowed to work on it as they see fit. The mere fact the story / lore etc aren't even in yet makes your points valid but, also short-sighted. This to me is an old school beta so, if you have suggestions of what you want endgame to be then post it. Let the community and DE see and it might get implemented a lot of player ideas were implemented into game or were on track with what they wanted to do in game i.e. axe, banshee, saryn, paris.