De, You Took What Should Have Been Fun And Just Turned It Into A Grind

[VKhaun]

I don't feel like the update was Grindy at all. It's been out barely over a week and all stances are common on trade, and I had stances to try out combos on the first day, as did everyone I played with... This wasn't a system for us to conquer in a day, it was something meant to enjoy finding things over time and that means some things had to be really rare.

 

But you can't argue with perception.

 

If this guy has +400 likes then it's going to hurt the game even if it's just people's bad impression and not a real issue in and of itself, and the rarest mods need to be toned down.

 

 

 

 

 

The last blowup over grind came with proposed XP changes (which they did not go through with). With all the XP bumps in U13 between the nodes and ability to unequip weapons affecting split XP, I feel like DE is trying to poke us and find where they can extend playtime and figured that if XP wasn't it then maybe they can make mods rare if they're fair about it (Drops from many missions of all types in different systems = very generous for something really rare, because you don't have to 'grind' on mission type or location), but obviously that's not going to work either.

 

Maybe the constructive thing to do, since this is a beta, would be to try and offer how to make people play longer and how to extend the range of rewards. We can't have the team spending two months on an update to be told it's a GRIND WALL because people don't have all of it and the rarest bits of it in one week. That's just not sustainable. What can we suggest?

Edited April 18, 2014 by VKhaun

[Worira]

404 likes: DE response not found.

[HiroProtagonest]

404 likes: DE response not found.

The Cells idea has 840 likes, has DE said anything about that (I haven't sifted through 21 pages of posts yet, so I don't know if they responded in the thread itself)?

 

Edit: Also, the original post complained. It did not offer any solutions.

Edited April 19, 2014 by HiroProtagonest

[ZWarhammer]

Look, i'm in no way a supporter of RNG, i'v mostly had terrible luck with it where ever it exists. ( except few cards in hearthstone lewls ) 

I understand that people don't like grinding for the stuff they need, however, to those who complain about stance mods i do not agree with.

You're not supposed to grind all the stance mods, ( aka optional ) you only need a select few you enjoy the most, and those are easy to track.

 

Stop making a fuss on each update about grindwalls, DE can't just gift you everything since after 5 mins you'll be asking for the next update.

 

KEY WORD HERE BEING RNG KEEPS THIS GAME ALIVE WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS FIXING FOR THIS TO CHANGE ( THE WHOLE GAME)

[Khunvyel]

*raises the flame resistant shield*

 

While I respect And_now_I_dance for the construction and civil tone in the topic, I'm wondering how many dislikes this topic would have had. 400+ likes doesn't mean the entire community agrees. I might be the only one thinking this, but I think the majority of the 400+ likes seem to be people who had nothing left to do in the game, and wanted to devour all content within two days. "Gimme moar, gimme nao, gimme free." Because if looking at the discussions going on in all the pages and drawing a comparison to there, I'm pretty sure there would be a tremendous amount of dislikes as well.

 

A "+1 meter" is by no way shape or form a measurement as to what DE has to do or not. I'm not saying "If you don't like it, then go".

I'm saying; "Be more objective in your perception and put things in a relation that is not taken out of context."

I'm also saying; "Only because you want something right now, doesn't mean you are going to get it right now, or means you should HAVE it right now."

 

Now have at me if you want. But it won't change the fact that stances are not the major part of Melee 2.0

The only thing people did, was MAKE it a major part for them, and MAKE it what they want to have. Doesn't matter if it is useful. Doesn't matter if it works well. Doesn't matter if it is actually efficient. Doesn't matter if it looks good. It is something that can be obtained, thus people made it in their head "I WANT IT."

 

You can raise the pitchforks against Hydroid and Argon Crystals every single day, and I'm with you.

But going against Melee 2.0 and Stances in the current form? That I won't be part of.

[And_Now_I_Dance]

 

Now have at me if you want. But it won't change the fact that stances are not the major part of Melee 2.0

The only thing people did, was MAKE it a major part for them, and MAKE it what they want to have. Doesn't matter if it is useful. Doesn't matter if it works well. Doesn't matter if it is actually efficient. Doesn't matter if it looks good. It is something that can be obtained, thus people made it in their head "I WANT IT."

 

You can raise the pitchforks against Hydroid and Argon Crystals every single day, and I'm with you.

But going against Melee 2.0 and Stances in the current form? That I won't be part of.

 

To be fair, stances were hyped up by DE themselves as a major part of melee 2.0.  It's not the communities fault for getting that impression.  Also, in my personal experience, stances have added a lot more to melee combat than any other aspect of the new system.  You can make it more viable, but what melee was really lacking, and still lacks without stance mods, is any sort of depth whatsoever.  Stance mods don't add a whole lot, but they do add some, and giving me something to work towards in combat (combos) has made combat infinitely more rewarding.

 

Odd that we have such different opinions on what is and isn't ok to grind.  I personally haven't had any issue with how they've implemented Argon Crystals or Hydroid.  It's the sort of thing I talked about in my original post where I don't mind grinding for end game items.  Can't please everyone I guess.

 

 

Look, i'm in no way a supporter of RNG, i'v mostly had terrible luck with it where ever it exists. ( except few cards in hearthstone lewls ) 

I understand that people don't like grinding for the stuff they need, however, to those who complain about stance mods i do not agree with.

You're not supposed to grind all the stance mods, ( aka optional ) you only need a select few you enjoy the most, and those are easy to track.

 

Stop making a fuss on each update about grindwalls, DE can't just gift you everything since after 5 mins you'll be asking for the next update.

 

KEY WORD HERE BEING RNG KEEPS THIS GAME ALIVE WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT NEEDS FIXING FOR THIS TO CHANGE ( THE WHOLE GAME)

 

That was sort of the point of my original post.  Stance mods don't feel like something optional.  They feel like a fundamental part of their brand new revamped combat system (Touched on in my response above).  I don't think improving combat mechanics should be something the player base has to grind for.  Also, I don't completely agree that RNG keeps the game alive.  Certainly it does to an extent, but that shouldn't be the ONLY thing keeping the game alive.  You can also just have a fun game that people want to play for the sake of playing the game.  If the game isn't fun at all, people won't care enough to grind for anything it has to offer, and when the entire game is nothing but a grind hardly anyone will find it any fun.  I'm not saying that's the state of the game now, but they're moving more and more in that direction.  Almost every new thing that comes out is behind a large grind wall now.  It didn't use to be that way, and the game got along just fine.  

 

 

I don't feel like the update was Grindy at all. It's been out barely over a week and all stances are common on trade, and I had stances to try out combos on the first day, as did everyone I played with... This wasn't a system for us to conquer in a day, it was something meant to enjoy finding things over time and that means some things had to be really rare.

 

But you can't argue with perception.

 

If this guy has +400 likes then it's going to hurt the game even if it's just people's bad impression and not a real issue in and of itself, and the rarest mods need to be toned down.

 

 

 

 

 

The last blowup over grind came with proposed XP changes (which they did not go through with). With all the XP bumps in U13 between the nodes and ability to unequip weapons affecting split XP, I feel like DE is trying to poke us and find where they can extend playtime and figured that if XP wasn't it then maybe they can make mods rare if they're fair about it (Drops from many missions of all types in different systems = very generous for something really rare, because you don't have to 'grind' on mission type or location), but obviously that's not going to work either.

 

Maybe the constructive thing to do, since this is a beta, would be to try and offer how to make people play longer and how to extend the range of rewards. We can't have the team spending two months on an update to be told it's a GRIND WALL because people don't have all of it and the rarest bits of it in one week. That's just not sustainable. What can we suggest?

 

I guess that's where my problems stem. I don't see melee 2.0 as something to be "conquered."  It's just an improvement to the way the game is played.  The issue I really wanted to bring up isn't "How grindy should melee 2.0 be," but "What deserves to be behind a grind wall and what doesn't?"  Melee 2.0 was just what I used to present my point, because it's the first thing that's come out for the game I really don't believe deserved to be behind a grind wall. 

 

My original post talked about what I'd like to see to make people play longer.  More emphasis on making gameplay fun and engaging.  I feel like melee 2.0 is a great start to that, but without the stance mods you're missing a big part of it.

 

And in response to several people have been saying, yeah, I don't think DE is going to offer any response.  That's fine.  I know at least a couple DE employees saw it.  Impossible to say whether they'll take some aspect of it to heart or if they just don't care.

 

Edit:  Sorry about quotes being in the wrong order.  Kinda new to forum posting and goofed up.  Didn't want to rewrite everything.

Edited April 19, 2014 by And_Now_I_Dance

[unknow99]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/218139-the-wall-of-grind-just-gets-bigger-and-bigger-it-was-supposed-to-get-smaller-and-smaller/#entry2531777

 

To me, it doesn't seem like the grind/RNG is getting worse, it's just that there is more stuff that uses it. The old system was much worse. Back then, bosses used RNG to determine BP drops, so you could go 20 runs of a boss without a single BP to compensate. I still remember grinding 3 hours daily for 2 months straight for bloody Banshee parts, they used to drop off random missions. Compared to that, Zephyr/Nekros/Hydroid have been cakewalks by comparison. Nekros has improved, too. Remember when Lephantis only had a chance to drop a part?

 

Heck, imagine getting prime gear using the old void key model, where you had to grind endless defense for a CHANCE of getting a key, at least there is some compensation now with survival. Even then, trading has helped to alleviate some of the grind as well. Got parts you don't want? Exchange it for parts you need.

 

The grind for stances is something I am a mild stickler about, but I've generally found most rare stances to be frivolous novelties anyways, so I've stopped looking for them. How do I personally see the best Warframe experience? I would just play the game for fun. Mess around, and if it comes up, it comes up.

 

I've generally come to terms that Warframe is a slow burn game best taken casually. Something to waste an evening with, and no particular goals really(then again, this is written by the person who decided to waste 90 minutes getting a 10k hit combo, so I'm not the best judge of time management). Seriously, it's not the end of the world if you don't get something immediately. Warframe is not going to shut down anytime soon. Unless you're going to die tomorrow, then I suppose you do have some urgency.

 

Does this mean that DE is perfect and their system should stay as is? Absolutely not, there is always something to improve upon. I believe that bigger risks=bigger rewards is their next major challenge to face. That would solve a lot of end-game/grind issues.

 

Edit: I really do love "I believe" don't I?

[Wolfstorm18]

I guess that for 90% complainers (and the big majority of Galatine/Jat Kittag/ Glaive users) : charge attacks back = win-win situation. :p

(Even though just holding "E" shouldn't be more powerful than 2.0, in my opinion.)

 

 

I always used the middle mouse button for melee, since I started playing Warframe some ten months ago. It was always better for me.

 

Now, to hold the left mouse button while using the middle for melee is just counter-intuitive, since the right button is used for block, and also need to be hold.