Tax Free Solar Rails & Why It's Bad

[Hit-Monkey]

Sigh, you guys have proven reading comprehension tests are required to be on the forums...

The taxes are for up keep and alliances are limited in size. When a rail is damaged, those taxes pay for up keep. Refer to intro video and tutorial in game.

I looked at the in game tutorial, and I'm looking for those specific words, and I'm not seeing it.

Also, condescension looks unflattering on you.

[Hit-Monkey]

I don't understand what the OP is complaining about. So what if there are tax free rails, that's good. The owner of the rail gets nothing out of it other than letting people get the new content for free. So what if it is only a couple of Alliances, holding a node does nothing other than that alliance being able to say "yeah, we control xyz, but we set the taxes to zero for everybody".

It's about the spirit of competition. Taxes 0% to everyone means sure they don't get anything, but we the competition doesn't get room to make their own name.

 

Sure, the Tax Frees aren't profiting, but neither is anyone else.

[Ketec]

but  if the repair is anything like the build costs, as i said, they make billions every week from low tax and low playthough numbers.

 

It doesn't go automatically to repair the rails - most likely spreads to the clans in the whole alliance.

Else - whats the point of even being in the alliance and contributing. U get nothing - not even control of  the rail it self - the founding clans warlord is the new boss of everything. Without a benefit to clans themselves. the alliances will start to break apart naturally.

[Hit-Monkey]

but  if the repair is anything like the build costs, as i said, they make billions every week from low tax and low playthough numbers.

 

It doesn't go automatically to repair the rails - most likely spreads to the clans in the whole alliance.

Else - whats the point of even being in the alliance and contributing. U get nothing - not even control of  the rail it self - the founding clans warlord is the new boss of everything. Without a benefit to clans themselves. the alliances will start to break apart naturally.

 

Well if there's upkeep for the profits to go to, then that's great. There's also Battle Pay, for which I have someone earlier to thank for reminding me, so the profits have to go to that too.

 

But if there is no upkeep costs, then the battle pay is really the only other thing keeping the Tenno from going to the side with the Tax Frees, because I for one would jump onto the Money Train, regardless of the taxes.

[Ketec]

If  tax fee is used for battle pay - it destroys competition. an alliance that held a sector for a week has soo many resources that no new alliance can compete.

[KingTaro]

We have a few Solar Rails ourselves, but I honestly don't care about who gets their hands on those zones, as long as there are no taxes or at least low taxes.

 

PS: Setting a minimum limit on those taxes won't fix the monopoly problem.

[Ketec]

The tax should be split.

 

Lets say 25% of the income goes to clan vault (or spread evenly among the alliance clans).

25% is automatically offered as battle pay (for credits) bonus.

50% stays in the solar rail storage - for repairs AND IF it gets conquered by another alliance/clan, All the funds in the rail storage carry over to them - and are evenly spread amount the clans as a raid/victory reward.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Ketec

[Sanillo]

This thread just seems to prove that, if you look hard enough, you really can find a bleeding-wallet republican everywhere you look.

[PoorCensored]

It's about the spirit of competition. Taxes 0% to everyone means sure they don't get anything, but we the competition doesn't get room to make their own name.

Sure, the Tax Frees aren't profiting, but neither is anyone else.

Actually, 0% tax clans are competing. They are competing by lowing their tax rates to the most attractive level. You see states and nation-states do this a lot to attract businesses. Why? Because the taxer gets something they want more out of it: people spending time in their territory. Edited April 12, 2014 by PoorCensored

[Voratiu]

Do these things cost money to maintain and defend?

If so we may just find that 0% rails are not viable for an Alliance, longterm.

Unless they have one as a "loss leader" supported by higher taxes on other rails.

Too early to tell I think.

low-medium tier solar rails with higher upkeep to support the higher tiered rails, like the ones on pluto.

that way the poor lose, and let's just say it, F*** the poor.

[Ganpot]

This is why, at a fundamental level, a system like this cannot work well.  One of two things will ALWAYS happen.  Either the solar rails will be so expensive to build and maintain that a handful of clans will quickly form a pseudo-monopoly and charge insane taxes (until most players eventually just ignore that content altogether), or the solar rails will be cheap enough that everyone can challenge potential monopolies until all clans simply give up trying to charge any taxes at all (and settle for just having their clan be represented on the star chart). 

 

DE was clearly hoping this system would provide inter-clan competition as a form of end-game.  That has pretty much already failed dismally (only 1 or 2 solar rails have taxes above 1% without a message stating that it will shortly be changed to such). 

[Hit-Monkey]

Doesn't help that so far I've seen one clan/alliance already building something like 6+ Solar Rails all over the place.This is a bad thing.

 

I'm talking to you, Eclipse.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Hit-Monkey

[ssfsx17]

IMO, tax-free solar rails are a good thing. I believe in basic guaranteed income in real life, and I also believe that socialism has gotten a bad reputation due to Stalin and that the core idea needs rehabilitation. And I believe in zero-tax solar rails in Warframe forever, with all attempts at capitalistic exploitation deservedly being halted.

Competition is not inherently virtuous. It is only the improvement of product and increased efficiency of ervice that is virtuous. If dark sectors become a public good, then that is a GOOD thing.

And if the big alliances and clans raise taxes on public land, then down with them!

Edited April 12, 2014 by ssfsx17

[Kaokasalis]

Im not going to jugde the solar rails yet as we have yet to play with them. Through if they are expensive to maintain we might see a tax increase. Also if a another clan wants solar rail that is already taxless cant they just promise the same tax but give a higher battlepay?

[Ganpot]

Competition is not inherently virtuous. It is only the improvement of product and increased efficiency of ervice that is virtuous. If dark sectors become a public good, then that is a GOOD thing.

 

Don't get me wrong; I actually want all of the solar rails to remain tax-free.  But DE probably don't want that to happen, because if solar rails aren't contested regularly then they will just end up being another pseudo-endgame failure like the derelicts and void.  Above all else, DE needs to give players busy-work without having to constantly create new content.  They were hoping that clans' desire to compete with each other would give this to them, and it has failed spectacularly (at least so far).  Once again, DE are apparently being blindsided by something that should have been obvious from the beginning. 

 

Also if a another clan wants solar rail that is already taxless cant they just promise the same tax but give a higher battlepay?

 

Theoretically, yes.  But it would cost the clan a massive amount of money, and if they aren't going to charge taxes anyway then there's very little point. 

[Flamingfighter]

Edit: As a member of an alliance of small clans with a solar rail in construction, I have seen an option that involves distributing resources to clans. I think it can be inferred that some of the tax payout can be distributed to clans based on the level of effort they put in as compensation for their investment. So kind of like earning interest only you get more .01% returns every year.

 

I feel like 0% taxes defeat the purpose. If having taxes and competition was not the goal and purpose of the system, DE could have just made it so that clans could research private solar rails for their clan use only so that taxes and competition wouldn't even be an issue. It would be like researching clantech weapons only you research new rail dimensions and technology to get you to new places. The public play would be unnecessary if taxes were 0% and competition gone.

I don't understand what the OP is complaining about. So what if there are tax free rails, that's good. The owner of the rail gets nothing out of it other than letting people get the new content for free. So what if it is only a couple of Alliances, holding a node does nothing other than that alliance being able to say "yeah, we control xyz, but we set the taxes to zero for everybody".

 

Other than the fact that they need to tax to keep the solar rail running, it defeats the purpose if the mechanic DE made for clan competition and alternate income is not used for clan competition and alternate income. Considering the rail construction itself as a fixed cost, if a clan just had to cover that, thy would be fine, but other clans will have to compete.

 

The battle pay and expenditure for solar rail upkeep would be a variable cost. If a business can not cover its variable cost, they go out of business because they only lose everything they have if they don't.

 

Actually, 0% tax clans are competing. They are competing by lowing their tax rates to the most attractive level. You see states and nation-states do this a lot to attract businesses. Why? Because the taxer gets something they want more out of it: people spending time in their territory.

 

It's poor competition.  introductory economics says that in order to be successful in a market, your revenue needs to cover your costs. No revenue equals complete deadweight loss. Considering the rail construction itself as a fixed cost, if a clan just had to cover that, they would be fine, but other clans will have to compete.

 

The battle pay and expenditure for solar rail upkeep would be a variable cost. If a business can not cover its variable cost, they go out of business because they only lose everything they have if they don't.

 

IMO, tax-free solar rails are a good thing. I believe in basic guaranteed income in real life, and I also believe that socialism has gotten a bad reputation due to Stalin and that the core idea needs rehabilitation. And I believe in zero-tax solar rails in Warframe forever, with all attempts at capitalistic exploitation deservedly being halted.

Competition is not inherently virtuous. It is only the improvement of product and increased efficiency of ervice that is virtuous. If dark sectors become a public good, then that is a GOOD thing.

And if the big alliances and clans raise taxes on public land, then down with them!

 

Where I live, the state government charges a tax. They use revenue from this tax to maintain and build roads as well as pave land for businesses. It is used to pay teachers, law enforcement, etc.  If they did not keep a tax, these things would not occur. The teachers would not get payed and the roads would fall into disrepair, starting a new business would be much more costly and in order to compensate, prices would be raised. Taxes are necessitated to avert these problems.

 

The same will apply to this solar rail. If no tax is kept, then a greedy 70% taxer could move in and attack the rail. Even if he fails to take control, the 0% taxer can not repair his solar rail or pay anybody that helps him defend it. The result is that the 70% taxer can just attack again at some other point and take control, since 0% taxer will have less support or capability to defend, having already spent a bulk of its resources just keeping the rail going instead of investing in a plan that could keep the rail better defended.

 

The 70% taxer takes control and earns his money back in a short period of time, (let's exaggerate that he makes a trillion credits in 5 days.) He can put as much up as he wants to defend his rail and he won't be able to be taken down easily unless the entire community goes after him (or something along those lines) and even then it would be difficult as he can bolster his side with superior battle pay.

 

A good healthy tax of 10-15% helps the clan maintain the rail and invest militarily into battle pay in order to defend it from the greedy. If the greedy can't get control, then he can't put up a good fight since he does not have a massive income. 0% taxers only make it easy for the greedy and powerful to take over and oppress the community with absurdly high taxes.

 

This thread just seems to prove that, if you look hard enough, you really can find a bleeding-wallet republican everywhere you look.

 

Why even say this? These people just want to be able to use the content in the method with which it was supposed to be used. Business competition.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Flamingfighter

[IConquer]

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that when you have 0% tax, your clan gains absolutely nothing from the solar rail. "But you control a node!" so what? The point of your own clan controlling the node is that you don't have to pay taxes, or the taxes are lowered to simply benefit your clan. Solar rails are expensive. When people start attacking the nodes with solar rails at 0%, the clans controlling them will eventually run out of resources.

 

I've seen people argue that you can just use the income from the node. The only way you're making money off that thing when you have 0% tax is by running the mission yourself.

 

Are you saying that everyone should run the mission just to control the mission? This is an opportunity cost. Players who are running that mission to pay for the rail are not running other missions. Players who run other missions to pay for the solar rail are losing credits to maintain the solar rail.

 

My prediction is... Give it time. As the system settles, clans will realize that the only way to make use of controlling a sector is to have a tax.

[Nampoosh]

By the beard of Zeus! It's the 1850s all  over again.

[Bakim0n0]

Furst it was crying because of taxes, now it's crying because no taxes? <.<

It's the forums... It will always be a place for someone to cry about something.

[Bakim0n0]

This thread just seems to prove that, if you look hard enough, you really can find a bleeding-wallet republican everywhere you look.

And kids who have never had real world experience to boot.

[SuperWeedy-EGT-]

Well lets wait and see how much it actually costs to maintain them. If its just as much as building them I could maintain a rail solo for the next 10 days and would keep it at 0% just for the hell of it, cause theres nothing to do anymore when you reach level 15. Imagine how many rescources big alliances have stockpiled, they could keep it at 0% forever and even offer high battle pay if anyone dares to attack. When the time comes to contest a rail it will anyways just be whose alliance has more members clicking frantically to deploy their troll rail.

[ZephyrAM]

It really comes down to 'can these Solar Rail owners afford the 0% tax rate'. 

 

Now, I don't know what it takes to maintain a Solar Rail. Resources, credits, time... whatever. Regardless though, if the members of the holding clan/alliance can themselves build and donate enough to support the Solar Rail, then a tax rate is unnecessary, and the 0% will be here to stay.

 

If not, then I imagine they'll raise their rate eventually. 

 

We'll see how things go once the system has been around awhile, but there's no point calling out 'bad economics' if the system works. This isn't the real world after all.

[Ishki88]

all of this is just too much for me...

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I think people are forgetting the fact that there are more than just credit costs to the rails and presumably their maintenance.  Maintenance in terms of resources is the whole point behind this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/208522-on-the-profitability-of-solar-rails/

[Flamingfighter]

I think people are forgetting the fact that there are more than just credit costs to the rails and presumably their maintenance.  Maintenance in terms of resources is the whole point behind this thread: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/208522-on-the-profitability-of-solar-rails/

I haven't forgotten resources, but I think people just find it easier to debate by only saying credits or money. There is a resource tax rate and while that can't cover every resource unless you own a rail in every sector it will still mitigate costs.