Katana Use Two Hand To Hold, Why These Mistake Nearly Happen On Every Game?

[matrixEXO]

Has anyone ever took a look at the Katana attacks from PSO2? It's actually more of a "fast draw" technique which is why the hand is always on the scabbard as opposed to how it is now. Most of the attacks are always a single swing by one hand and then sheathed. Attacks that are strung multiple times are normally attack that have two hands on the sword.

 

Katana P.Arts: 

 

If DE wants to go down the "fast draw" route, I don't mind. I actually don't mind them having the current animation. But it isn't a "fast draw" technique, so I have to still say that they need to properly do an unsheathing and sheathing of the katana every time it's equipped.

Edited April 15, 2014 by matrixEXO

[nekrojiji]

When you hold the Katana with two hands your moves are very powerfull but very slow. I realy don't need to move slower than now.

 

As someone else said before, the style used by tenno is different. We use the sheath too and the unsheathing is done with a cut.

 

Talking about etiquette, can the elements effect be closed while the sword is sheathed?....

 

Those should be seen only on the blade. In the past the blade of the katana would be revealed, for others, only if there was a kill intent. My "blade" is visible all the time.

[xdevianT]

If tenno are this strong i wish there would be dual jat kittag :3 and looks badass too.

[Mokkania]

It's normal they don't use two hand since they always have the scabbard on one, you can say it's supposed to be iaido or a standard style all you want but it seems more like a own made style, so just a matter of opinion.

[DiabolusUrsus]

When you hold the Katana with two hands your moves are very powerfull but very slow. I realy don't need to move slower than now.

 

As someone else said before, the style used by tenno is different. We use the sheath too and the unsheathing is done with a cut.

 

Talking about etiquette, can the elements effect be closed while the sword is sheathed?....

 

Those should be seen only on the blade. In the past the blade of the katana would be revealed, for others, only if there was a kill intent. My "blade" is visible all the time.

I'm sorry, but... what? Have you ever swung a katana before? You definitely do not move slower swinging the sword with two hands. You swing the sword slower when you try to throw as much force into it as you can, which is the wrong way to swing it. The more you put into it, and the less control you have over it, the slower you are. As such, one-handed swings are invariably slower than two-handed ones when swung properly. The only one-handed attacks with katanas that are inherently faster than two-handed ones are the one or two situational thrusts that are taught as part of Kendo... and that's because thrusts are as a rule faster than cuts, because they make use of more efficient movement. I know that Kendo is primarily practiced using a bamboo shinai, but there are parts of it that require handling an Iaito or other steel replica, and aside from the weight differential the handling of the weapon is much the same. Two-handed strikes =/= to slower strikes, at all. Poorly trained and emotionally enraged strikes are. I don't think the Tenno are poorly trained, and I haven't seen them demonstrate much emotion. It stands to reason that their two-handed strikes will be quite fast.

That aside, yes, please, conceal elemental particles while the weapon is sheathed. It's horrible to see the basic elements just clipping through it, as well. At least give us a toggle for the visual effects.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I'm sorry, but... what? Have you ever swung a katana before? You definitely do not move slower swinging the sword with two hands. You swing the sword slower when you try to throw as much force into it as you can, which is the wrong way to swing it. The more you put into it, and the less control you have over it, the slower you are. As such, one-handed swings are invariably slower than two-handed ones when swung properly. The only one-handed attacks with katanas that are inherently faster than two-handed ones are the one or two situational thrusts that are taught as part of Kendo... and that's because thrusts are as a rule faster than cuts, because they make use of more efficient movement. I know that Kendo is primarily practiced using a bamboo shinai, but there are parts of it that require handling an Iaito or other steel replica, and aside from the weight differential the handling of the weapon is much the same. Two-handed strikes =/= to slower strikes, at all. Poorly trained and emotionally enraged strikes are. I don't think the Tenno are poorly trained, and I haven't seen them demonstrate much emotion. It stands to reason that their two-handed strikes will be quite fast.

That aside, yes, please, conceal elemental particles while the weapon is sheathed. It's horrible to see the basic elements just clipping through it, as well. At least give us a toggle for the visual effects.

 

Very interesting.

At first you had my attention. now you have my curiosity.

[Pure]

It's about the discipline, not because "i can hold it in one hand make me looks like much cooler and stronger"

 

 

and the animation of the skana in the frist trailer is more like a Katana than the Nikana, brandished with both hand and straight cuts.

 

Nikana is totally not a katana and the katana stances also not katana moves.

 

Some ppl said it's a Iaido style , but i can said, even the laido use both hands to hold sword after the frist strike if the warrier is not going to  replace the sword back in the scabbard immediately.

 

and?  are you the katana police?  gotta love the nerds that post everything that isn't realistic in a video game.

[Worira]

Oh man, the Katana Police sound rad.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Very interesting.

At first you had my attention. now you have my curiosity.

 

I hope I'm not taking a potentially sarcastic remark out of context, but... to hell with it.

 

The katana is held with two hands primarily for the purpose of creating a sort of pivot point with the grip - this isn't a perfect analogy, but it's about as close as I've been able to get. Most of the cutting power comes from the wielder's left hand, not the right. The right hand maintains a grip on the hilt, but it's there mostly as a guide for the strike, and extra support for the weight of the blade. As a result of this method of handling the blade, very minute movements of the body can produce drastic movements of the sword itself; shifting only the left wrist a couple of degrees can move the blade six or seven inches. Kendo strikes differ from "real" strikes with katanas in that they are shallower during competition matches to take full advantage of even greater speed, but many basic strikes and the motions of kata (form practice) are plenty deep enough to be serious cuts.

 

To give some perspective:

 

The points struck took 0.1-0.2 seconds, and though the video doesn't show it particularly well, are plenty powerful. In Kendo, one point is considered a "valid cut," or in more specific terms, on-target, purposeful, and powerful enough to have cut through the armor worn by competitors. (Not that it literally did cut through the armor.) The higher weight of a steel rather than bamboo sword would of course produce slower attacks, but not significantly more so. It is also worth noting that a katana is more compact than a shinai - it is shorter in length, and suffers from much lower air resistance during the swing. While I can't exactly strike a cut like that in two tenths of a second myself, there is not a particularly noticeable difference between my swings with a bokken (solid wooden sword similar to a katana), the replica katanas I have had the fortune to handle, and my practice shinai. It stands to reason that if people can strike with a shinai in less than half a second, they can strike with a katana in a similar amount of time.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to say that all cuts with katanas would be that quick - human beings certainly wouldn't be able to manage the speed with which the Tenno used to be able to swing some of the faster longswords modded with a max ranked fury for long, if at all. Still, you may recall from the video that the participant using nito-ryu had a markedly slower strike than his conventional opponent. That's because he lacked mechanical advantage over his sword and the subsequent efficiency of movement afforded by the use of a second hand. Furthermore, he would need to swing his sword more widely to achieve the same cutting power by taking advantage of the sword's weight and momentum, significantly slowing down his attack. The strike itself would likely be executed in a similar amount of time, but the wind up necessary for making the strike dangerous would be substantially longer. My main point here is that of all the things two-handing a katana does, slowing its wielder down is not one of them. It may restrict their range of movement a bit, but if anything their strikes will speed up and increase in power. Two-handed wielding's downsides are also easily circumvented by, well, simply letting go with one hand for a moment before resuming the attack with both hands.

[nekrojiji]

I'm sorry, but... what? Have you ever swung a katana before? You definitely do not move slower swinging the sword with two hands. You swing the sword slower when you try to throw as much force into it as you can, which is the wrong way to swing it. The more you put into it, and the less control you have over it, the slower you are. As such, one-handed swings are invariably slower than two-handed ones when swung properly. The only one-handed attacks with katanas that are inherently faster than two-handed ones are the one or two situational thrusts that are taught as part of Kendo... and that's because thrusts are as a rule faster than cuts, because they make use of more efficient movement. I know that Kendo is primarily practiced using a bamboo shinai, but there are parts of it that require handling an Iaito or other steel replica, and aside from the weight differential the handling of the weapon is much the same. Two-handed strikes =/= to slower strikes, at all. Poorly trained and emotionally enraged strikes are. I don't think the Tenno are poorly trained, and I haven't seen them demonstrate much emotion. It stands to reason that their two-handed strikes will be quite fast.

That aside, yes, please, conceal elemental particles while the weapon is sheathed. It's horrible to see the basic elements just clipping through it, as well. At least give us a toggle for the visual effects.

 

I wasn't saying about how fast the actual cut is. I was saying that, you don't have the freedom of movement while holding it with two hands, that eventualy translates into slower attacks.

 

All the combos start with unseath->cut. That's a one handed style. And, you are right, there can be very fast strikes while two handed, but with limited movement.

 

I mostly use the BREATHLES LUNGE for the 3 very fast stabs. That's the speed I was talking about. You can't reach those speeds with a two handed style.

 

Yes, the samurai use the two handed style, but we are not samurai. The one handed style uses faints, deception. The fights to defeat their oponent with honor unlike the ninja who just fight to win.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

I wasn't saying about how fast the actual cut is. I was saying that, you don't have the freedom of movement while holding it with two hands, that eventualy translates into slower attacks.

 

All the combos start with unseath->cut. That's a one handed style. And, you are right, there can be very fast strikes while two handed, but with limited movement.

 

you're implying that Tenno one handed style is actually quick, in reality it's about as fast as beating someone with a stick while you have a broken arm... at least that's what the animation makes me think of

[fatpig84]

This is a game where Ninjas can deflect bullets, arc lightning and even laser beams from fusion MOAs with freaking swords.
I think holding any sword 1 handed is not too great a feat for them.

Edited April 17, 2014 by fatpig84

[Worira]

you're implying that Tenno one handed style is actually quick, in reality it's about as fast as beating someone with a stick while you have a broken arm... at least that's what the animation makes me think of

 

Swinging a sword the size of the Nikana as fast as the Tenno do, one-handed, would be fairly impressive in real life. Not impossible, but not something you could do without a decent amount of training.

[GeoffFromAccounting]

Swinging a sword the size of the Nikana as fast as the Tenno do, one-handed, would be fairly impressive in real life. Not impossible, but not something you could do without a decent amount of training.

 

I agree, though I still hate the Nikana animations because it just makes the Tenno look like they're just showing off by swinging their sword one handed

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

All good, Diabolus, no childish sarcasm here.
 

...
The katana is held with two hands primarily for the purpose of creating a sort of pivot point with the grip - this isn't a perfect analogy, but it's about as close as I've been able to get. Most of the cutting power comes from the wielder's left hand, not the right. The right hand maintains a grip on the hilt, but it's there mostly as a guide for the strike, and extra support for the weight of the blade. As a result of this method of handling the blade, very minute movements of the body can produce drastic movements of the sword itself; shifting only the left wrist a couple of degrees can move the blade six or seven inches. Kendo strikes differ from "real" strikes with katanas in that they are shallower during competition matches to take full advantage of even greater speed, but many basic strikes and the motions of kata (form practice) are plenty deep enough to be serious cuts.

To give some perspective:

The points struck took 0.1-0.2 seconds, and though the video doesn't show it particularly well, are plenty powerful. In Kendo, one point is considered a "valid cut," or in more specific terms, on-target, purposeful, and powerful enough to have cut through the armor worn by competitors. (Not that it literally did cut through the armor.) The higher weight of a steel rather than bamboo sword would of course produce slower attacks, but not significantly more so. It is also worth noting that a katana is more compact than a shinai - it is shorter in length, and suffers from much lower air resistance during the swing. While I can't exactly strike a cut like that in two tenths of a second myself, there is not a particularly noticeable difference between my swings with a bokken (solid wooden sword similar to a katana), the replica katanas I have had the fortune to handle, and my practice shinai. It stands to reason that if people can strike with a shinai in less than half a second, they can strike with a katana in a similar amount of time.

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to say that all cuts with katanas would be that quick - human beings certainly wouldn't be able to manage the speed with which the Tenno used to be able to swing some of the faster longswords modded with a max ranked fury for long, if at all. Still, you may recall from the video that the participant using nito-ryu had a markedly slower strike than his conventional opponent. That's because he lacked mechanical advantage over his sword and the subsequent efficiency of movement afforded by the use of a second hand. Furthermore, he would need to swing his sword more widely to achieve the same cutting power by taking advantage of the sword's weight and momentum, significantly slowing down his attack. The strike itself would likely be executed in a similar amount of time, but the wind up necessary for making the strike dangerous would be substantially longer. My main point here is that of all the things two-handing a katana does, slowing its wielder down is not one of them. It may restrict their range of movement a bit, but if anything their strikes will speed up and increase in power. Two-handed wielding's downsides are also easily circumvented by, well, simply letting go with one hand for a moment before resuming the attack with both hands.

This is an excellent post and the detailed explanation was very useful in helping me understand what I'm looking at more in-depth and how two-handed swords work. Now I can understand the skill of the samurai even more. The technical details of how relevant even wrist movement is and the explanation of the use of the hands during the strike brought to light something I never knew about - left hand for power, right hand for guiding and support. Simply amazing.
Thank you very much for this.

Edited April 16, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[Davoodoo]

you're implying that Tenno one handed style is actually quick, in reality it's about as fast as beating someone with a stick while you have a broken arm... at least that's what the animation makes me think of

Depending on strength used it can be as fast as used both hands but its impractical to build such amount of strength just to use a sword effectively it was easier and faster to train troops to fight with both hands, but that doesnt apply to mutant aliens in future high powered battle suits, tenno might be stronger than strongest ppl on earth.

 

Another example of this problem is dual wielding, it wasnt used at any war, why?? Cause it was impractical, troops needed to be trained as fast as possible and losing a troop meant that you need to train someone to replace him, dual wielding needed much more training to be used effectively and even then amidst combat chaos it was harder to use effectively and at the same time shield needed no additional training but provided amazing defensive capabilities and you could still attack with it.

It doesnt mean that dual wielding was bad, but effort and time put to learn this technique was too much to be considered effective enough to use it in war.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Nox-Lamina]

 but that doesnt apply to mutant aliens in future high powered battle suits, tenno might be stronger than strongest ppl on earth.

 

Most important line in this thread. What we understand as better/disciplined does not matter when we're talking about a civilization so advanced that we look like cavemen compared  to them. Viewing the future through the lens of the past is a stupid idea.

[HexCaliber]

"Becauserealism"

I agree though, screw real techniques, I want "awesome" not "authentic".

Realism and awesome both have one handed techniques or did you not read any of the thread?

 

 

Long story short, the two handed grip is used to deliver forceful blows, and block, however even in kendo there are one handed slashing attacks, in Iaido nearly all attacks are one handed. Op was mistaken in his assumption that the sword can only be held using two hands; a case of too much Hollywood and not enough understanding of the techniques possible.

 

Nothing more to see!

Edited April 16, 2014 by HexCaliber

[notionphil]

Right? I mean com on, it's like these people don't even reference the galactic manual of I'm a space ninja samurai pirate!

 

On a serious note, yes, realistically, I've never seen any katana style sword fighting done with one hand. But sticking logic and realism to this game is like sticking a snail to a tractor. It could work if you tried really hard, but it really wouldn't be much fun.

If you absolutely need a reasoning, the suites (warframes) clearly give the tenno sur-human strength which could make it very possible to use a katana 1 handed. Which we would probably do since there are many advantages.

There are 2 points you can make against this, I'll make them for you. 

1.Why they do we not 1 hand the scindo? Yeah, if we're as strong as we are with warframes we probably could, no real explanation.

2.It's no about function of logic it's about discipline and style. There's a good reply to this one, maybe the tenno over time learned to adapt to the extreme strength and redeveloped there sword arts. 

 

this is an awesome post. just wanted to say that.

[edryuu]

I want a Iaido Stance Mod for sure

[Liminal]

Realism and awesome both have one handed techniques or did you not read any of the thread?

Yes, but Tranquil Cleave is obviously designed with Rule of Cool in mind. Cooler than any 2 handed stance can ever be.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I wasn't saying about how fast the actual cut is. I was saying that, you don't have the freedom of movement while holding it with two hands, that eventualy translates into slower attacks.

 

All the combos start with unseath->cut. That's a one handed style. And, you are right, there can be very fast strikes while two handed, but with limited movement.

 

I mostly use the BREATHLES LUNGE for the 3 very fast stabs. That's the speed I was talking about. You can't reach those speeds with a two handed style.

 

Yes, the samurai use the two handed style, but we are not samurai. The one handed style uses faints, deception. The fights to defeat their oponent with honor unlike the ninja who just fight to win.

 

Uh... no. The restricted freedom of movement does not slow down your attacks. It just affects how far to one side or the other you can block an attack. Two-handing doesn't just speed up the cut, it drastically reduces the time you need to build up power and momentum between cuts. With one-handed attacks you have to swing wider to achieve the same effect, which translates to slower attacks. Two-handed attacks also don't slow down stabs... and in fact help make them more accurate. As I said in a separate reply above, stabs will always be faster than cuts, because they are a much more efficient movement. However... the katana is not primarily a thrusting sword. Why you're using stabs for a benchmark of attack speed is beyond me. Thrusts do benefit from increased range when executed with one hand instead of two because a single arm can be extended further, but adapting an appropriate style would entail simply letting go with one hand when stabbing, and re-establishing a grip when returning to cuts.

 

I'm not advocating wielding the katana "like a samurai." I'm advocating wielding the katana "like a katana." If ninjas used katanas they would likely two-hand them as well. The one-handed style for katanas is not so much a one-handed style as it is a two-sword style; katana in one hand and wakizashi in the other. The most famous of which was described by Miyamoto Musashi, who used it when fighting against multiple opponents so that he could attack and defend in two directions at once. The Tenno may be advertised as "ninjas," but they are also advertised as having "honor." Feints with the katana are also completed using two hands. The weight of the sword itself makes feinting impractical otherwise. Sure, the Nikana itself is supposedly made out of Oxium, but I have yet to see any of its combos incorporate feints either. The Tenno may primarily favor a pop-culture ninja style of movement, but until we see Stealth 2.0 most people jump head-first into combat in a manner more similar to samurai. I think it's safe to say that Tenno culture and combat tradition stems from a wide variety of warrior vocations.

 

To be perfectly clear, one-handed, two-handed, I don't particularly care one way or the other. I'd just like to see the katana swung around in a manner more befitting a katana, rather than feature combos with awkwardly timed swings and pointless rolls. Something more than just a back-and-forth horizonal slash. Less hopping around like a maniac, and more cleaving through hordes of enemies with a tranquil demeanor. Saying that the Tenno must wield the katana with 100% historical accuracy is ridiculous. Claiming that one-handed attacks are somehow intrinsically faster than two-handed attacks is equally ridiculous. At least, when it comes to the katana. Something like a rapier will, of course, be faster in one hand, because it was designed for use with one hand. It takes maximum advantage of its light weight to emphasize wrist movement for feints and its ability to parry opposing thrusts, which lends itself to use with one hand. The katana, however, takes advantage of its own weight to cut straight forward when it is swung.

Two-handing a sword is not about fighting with honor. It is about fighting to win against an opponent who has already seen you and is ready for combat. There are still plenty of feints. There are still plenty of deceptions. Defeating an opponent honorably just means that you shouldn't walk up to some random passerby and stab them through the back with no warning. Once a real fight starts, pretty much anything goes.

[Innocent_Flower]

Here's an accurate post. 

 

Katana were held with two hands. Yeah, musashi was known to occasionally use a shortsword with his longsword; But he's the exception to the rule and he was fully aware of the drawbacks it held. Yeah, you can swing the sword with one hand, but you're sacrificing most of your cutting strength, blocking strength and control. Even the shorter katana were preferably held with two hands. 

 

What also irks me is the constant sword drawing. Yeah, samurai did like to cut people as they drew the sword; but only an idiot would continuously sheath it. 

[nekrojiji]

you're implying that Tenno one handed style is actually quick, in reality it's about as fast as beating someone with a stick while you have a broken arm... at least that's what the animation makes me think of

dude is not about the power .... it's about the freedom of movement and speed. Yes ....you have more power with two handed strikes, but they have limited movement. That makes them slow and unreliable in what warfarmes do. 

 

More, In a world where the cuting is not done only by strength anymore (the sword is augmented by the tenno's energy and, from what I see, it cuts everythign with ease) the two handed stance has only drawbacks.

 

 

What also irks me is the constant sword drawing. Yeah, samurai did like to cut people as they drew the sword; but only an idiot would continuously sheath it. 

 

The sword is sheated after you finish attacking because that's the idle state of the sword.

 

 

 

Talking about etiquette, can the elements effect be closed while the sword is sheathed?....

 

Those should be seen only on the blade. In the past the blade of the katana would be revealed, for others, only if there was a kill intent. My "blade" is visible all the time.

 

They actualy fixed this. Thank you, DE!

Edited April 18, 2014 by nekrojiji

[Mephiste]

Isn't the two handed hold of a Katana called Kendo?

And I think Nikana's using a different style than Kendo.

 

HOWEVER! I would love to see a Kendo-Like weapon in the game ;)