Solar Rail Conflict Design Failure: Grind. Solution Idea.

[Monolake]

You know what grind is, of course you do: continuous repetition of exactly the same. It is BORING.

The sabotage missions are exactly the same each time you play them, there is no dynamic and minimal emergent element.

They offer zero challenge and are beatable using trivial solo rushing in ~2 minutes:

There is no replayability value. And how many times do they have to be run to win? Some say its 75000 times!

Reward is absent either in most cases, its up to clans to pay or not and clans dont have endless credits.

And clans are losing interest already.

Looks like Zenith forfeits all their nodes.

No wonder most conflicts haven't moved past 90% in about 24 hrs (only one conflict got resolved in under 20 hrs)

Grind. No challenge. No variety. No reward. BAD.

update: The 48 hours conflict timers were supposed to run out today, only 3(?) conflicts resolved. Many are still at ~80-90% DE added 24 more hours to the timer. Obviously people are not very interesting in running them so many times. Sectors are still being locked out.

Conflict should be epic event with challenge and re-playability.

First idea that comes to mind is similar to interception with over-blown spawn rate, the kind that we got during Thetra event. The goal is to stay alive under the onslaught and keep enemy away from the important points, details of the implementation may vary. Advantage over defence is that you need to move between several points and you cant instantly lose if the enemy shoots the pod.

Each next wave will offer more progress towards the Solar rail conflict victory while rising the difficulty - thus you get challenge/reward dynamic and incentive to stay longer instead of repeating an easy mission. Random spawns of high level leaders will spice the things up.

In the end good teams that can last longer will have the advantage - skill is rewarded, unlike in grinding. Clans will have incentive to play as organised teams of skilled players ('endgame' players will come into play). The conflict might get resolved quicker, which is only good in the current system, as the sectors are locked out until one side wins.

Additional incentive to play comes from XP you would gain in mission with massive spawns.

To add re-playability tilesets can be made more modular with several interchangeable blocks comprising a battle area for more possible combinations.

The factions you fight might also differ from one wave to another, similar to random invasions in Derelicts.

Unique addition idea: after each wave a team could chose a bonus to help them in the fight. For example: ammo restore, energy restore, +10% fire damage for the next round, +10% protection for the next round, a team of friendly Spectre Tenno etc.

Anyway, the current Solar rail conflict missions are bad and need to be replaced with more interesting new ones.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Monolake

[Ourobor]

Yes.
Yesyesyes.
Yesyesyesyesyesyes.

 

This is the best post I've seen all day :D

Please DE. This would make my life.

[se05239]

The sabotage missions are exactly the same each time you play them, there is no dynamic and minimal emergent element.

They offer zero challenge and are beatable using trivial solo rushing in ~2 minutes. There is no replayability value. And how many times do they have to be run to win? 500? 1000?

Reward is absent either in most cases, its up to clans to pay or not and clans dont have endless credits.

No wonder most conflicts havenmt moved past 90% in about 5 hrs. 

Grind. No challenge. No variety. No reward. BAD.

 

For some reason, I suspected this would happen.

I haven't tried it out yet. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. 

[Worira]

The one problem I can see here is that it encourages using lolsploits and 20formafotm to remain competitive. Other than that, I really like this idea.

[IamSalva]

Won´t happen, DE obviously HATES the idea that skill or good gear is important, they just love mindless grind...

 

They showed it with Invasions and now again with the Tower Battels. 

 

Low Level Enemies in a rush Mission you have to play 75000 times. THAT is what DE envisions as "Endgame" of Warframe. 

 

If they dont change theyr mind about that soon WF is dead for all non casuals...

 

(oh and it is 75k runs to bring a tower down to 0% from 100%)

[Cynick]

Would be an improvement, definitely.

[Xaiyain]

I like your idea!

+10

[neKroMancer]

I believe that challenge must be two-sided.

Both side of the contestant must be challenged. To be honest, we have the tileset system in place then why not use it? Allowing clans to construct a battle tile based on existing tileset, selecting enemy type or mixed them together, select type of mission you want to use. Then the clan tested it themselves to prove that it can be finished before putting it into the solar rail mission.

The benefit of doing so?

1. Skill-based mission. If the clan has skill and equipment to deal with higher level enemies and vicious tileset and then they proceed to put it into the rail mission. Only their equally well-equipped team or better can finish the mission.

2. Greater variety of mission design and type of enemies. It's possible to add bosses, certain type of Specter, mixed enemy type into the rail mission. Tileset can be made to order from existing template. Traps can be placed, etc.

3. Craftable BP for bosses and enemies and tileset can be issued through the Orokin lab. Using more resource from clan and alliance if they want to invest in defending the tile. Fair trade, imo.

Doubtful that this will happen but we can dream, right?

[Monolake]

Won´t happen, DE obviously HATES the idea that skill or good gear is important, they just love mindless grind...

 

They showed it with Invasions and now again with the Tower Battels. 

 

Low Level Enemies in a rush Mission you have to play 75000 times. THAT is what DE envisions as "Endgame" of Warframe. 

 

If they dont change theyr mind about that soon WF is dead for all non casuals...

 

(oh and it is 75k runs to bring a tower down to 0% from 100%)

I don't think these missions are interesting even for newer and casual players to be worth replaying many times.  This game mode might be dead for everyone when people play it few times and get bored. And why even grind for minimum/no reward.

 

75000 wow for real? where is that number from? 

 

 

I believe that challenge must be two-sided.

Both side of the contestant must be challenged. To be honest, we have the tileset system in place then why not use it? Allowing clans to construct a battle tile based on existing tileset, selecting enemy type or mixed them together, select type of mission you want to use. Then the clan tested it themselves to prove that it can be finished before putting it into the solar rail mission.

The benefit of doing so?

1. Skill-based mission. If the clan has skill and equipment to deal with higher level enemies and vicious tileset and then they proceed to put it into the rail mission. Only their equally well-equipped team or better can finish the mission.

2. Greater variety of mission design and type of enemies. It's possible to add bosses, certain type of Specter, mixed enemy type into the rail mission. Tileset can be made to order from existing template. Traps can be placed, etc.

3. Craftable BP for bosses and enemies and tileset can be issued through the Orokin lab. Using more resource from clan and alliance if they want to invest in defending the tile. Fair trade, imo.

Doubtful that this will happen but we can dream, right?

 

Thats a good idea, but would require public mission editor which is not there, and Im afraid everyone would be making impossibly hard missions.

I would love to make some maps myself. In fact this could be really overall great for community and for the game, as many games have proven that modding community can improve the game and prolong its life by tenfold. 

[ENDER357]

the only thing interesting in the missions is a few new tilesets and different enemies, and the Tenno spectres, which are unique, but pushovers when you use powerful weapons

[neKroMancer]

I don't think these missions are interesting even for newer and casual players to be worth replaying many times.  This game mode might be dead for everyone when people play it few times and get bored. And why even grind for minimum/no reward.

 

75000 wow for real? where is that number from? 

 

 

 

Thats a good idea, but would require public mission editor which is not there, and Im afraid everyone would be making impossibly hard missions.

I would love to make some maps myself. In fact this could be really overall great for community and for the game, as many games have proven that modding community can improve the game and prolong its life by tenfold. 

 

Well, according to my concept, they can publish a map that the clan manage to clear. If they can't clear it, they can't publish it. So, it's an indirect PvP in a sense. Outsmarting or overpowering the mapmaker is a challenge in itself.

 

I'm interest in this concept for a while now since the potential of tileset mechanic is blooming in term of Dojo building. It needs a good direction to expand and solar rail contest is a good way to showcase it's full potential.

 

BTW, we already have miniature Corpus mech in tech lab, Infest in a jar, and Grineer weapon stored in the lab. About time we use them to defend ourselves. 

[BlueSilkMetallic]

great post (thread opener)

nothing more to say :D

 

except :

you should be able to play the normal node mission like survival.

or you have the same problem then before u13 : no infested nodes :(

Edited April 14, 2014 by Chupachab

[MixterFox]

 

Thats a good idea, but would require public mission editor which is not there, and Im afraid everyone would be making impossibly hard missions.

I would love to make some maps myself. In fact this could be really overall great for community and for the game, as many games have proven that modding community can improve the game and prolong its life by tenfold. 

We can already build dojos any wa we want and add decor. Adding enemies/hazzards wouldn't have to work any differently than building a pond in the dojo.

[Dualstar]

I knew from the announcement that the Dark Sectors were going to suck. Either as a result of nodes being near permanently shut off due to clans bickering over them, or tedious repetition of the missions.

 

I guess its too early to call the former, but the latter is right on the money.

[Worira]

Yeah, apparently it costs one forma to build 75,000 reactors. Good cost efficiency on those.

[Monolake]

We can already build dojos any wa we want and add decor. Adding enemies/hazzards wouldn't have to work any differently than building a pond in the dojo.

Main problem would be quality control, you could build an impassable or game-crashing level full of nothing but deathtraps.

[low1991]

Won´t happen, DE obviously HATES the idea that skill or good gear is important, they just love mindless grind...

 

They showed it with Invasions and now again with the Tower Battels. 

 

Low Level Enemies in a rush Mission you have to play 75000 times. THAT is what DE envisions as "Endgame" of Warframe. 

 

If they dont change theyr mind about that soon WF is dead for all non casuals...

 

(oh and it is 75k runs to bring a tower down to 0% from 100%)

wow...

i'm sure that you cant repair a rail while it's being deployed right?

repairing a rail which is still currently being used is just outright dumb.

so i'm guessing that at some point in time, alliance will have to give up or lost a node due to 0% hp or to repair (call it back)

and the challenger will receive the node.

 

the lacking part atm is.

why is there only 1 Holder & 1 Challenger? this is a 1 v 1 alliance war.

why not have 1 holder & multiple Challenger (like 3 to 6?) ? and in the Dark sector there's multiple spawns of Specter and many internal wars.

-The highest Hp at the end of conflict/war will wins over the node.

-those alliance which lost, have their rail called back if it's not destroyed.

 

and instead of sabotage mission, make it like cerio event.(correct spelling?)

give players the gear in which cause extra damage to rail, more gear = more damage, (but non-alliance-related member/player does even more damage)

and more gears means you have to defend the injector longer. (now it will reduce the grind for crappy sabotage)

 

-a failure in succesful defending means no damage deal to holder, so players just can't spam this "gear" to destroy the holder when they themselve cant hold the line.

-winning, or succesful extraction, means total damage deal to holder' rail = (Number of players + the number of gears used) (type of players: non-alliance-related or alliance) 

 

as for battlepay: there should be a room in clan/alliance in which allow the owner (?) adjust the pay with a bare mimunim fee of x k's that is based on the current number of players in alliances.

 

as for tax%. there shld be 4 seperate tax ratio.

1) credit tax %

2) common resources tax %

3) uncommon resources tax %

4) rare resources tax %

correct me if i'm wrong, atm there's only 1 tax % adjustable which increase or decrease both resources & credit tax%.

Edited April 15, 2014 by low1991

[Nerevar22g]

problems are created by Rail owners, 100 credit rewards? and you expect people to play that mission? please...

Edited April 15, 2014 by Nerevar22g

[ThePoopHunter]

so like world war tenno.

sounds awesome, +1

[fatpig84]

problems are created by Rail owners, 100 credit rewards? and you expect people to play that mission? please...

 

No tax and you expect them to fund battle pay and repairs ?

 

Please.

[DracoHomicida]

For me the whole system was a major let down the rewards are nice but if i cant get to them because clans are fighting what's the point. Battle pay for ether side is a joke the highest i have ever seen is 1,000 so that's not getting me to play them. The Quickest fix would be to let clans offer resources or tech (built from the dojo by the dojo with donated resources) and let at lest the owners of both rails use the farming spot to accumulate the needed battle pay. Although I would love to see DE do more with this than the lack luster bear bones launch they had. long term what i think will improve Dark Sectors would be

1) don't just lock off the sector let people choose with there runs on the mission who stays (with less damage to enemy than a direct attack)

2) Totally new tile set, i know this is asking a lot but more people will run these if they are more then a easier void run without the rewards.

3) New mission type, i was hoping for more than a four target hack mission they need to feel large scale and different

4) Base the opposing Tenno off the gear the alliance or clan members have, not just an arbitrary load out.

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[the1Blind]

  First idea that comes to mind is similar to interception with over-blown spawn rate, the kind that we got during Thetra event. The goal is  to stay alive under the onslaught and keep enemy away from the important points, details of the implementation may vary. Advantage over defence is that you need to move between several points and you cant instantly lose if the enemy shoots the pod.

As a twist on this (good) basic idea: Every 5 (less than 5?) minutes that you hold an interception capture point counts as a point towards your side. As spawns get harder and harder, you can choose to give up defending capture points in order to stay alive longer.

If you manage to extract (available after 5 minutes like survival) your total score counts towards your side. If you fail the mission, only 50% of your score counts.

[notionphil]

Inception for contested rails, with compounding effect based on wave reached. That was a damn good suggestion.

[Spinnerthonicus]

Main problem would be quality control, you could build an impassable or game-crashing level full of nothing but deathtraps.

Or long corridors to run down that would make excellent fire lanes with no cover.

A couple off defenders at one end, at long range = death trap.