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Ash, Because I Don't Know What To Title This.


Shuuro
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TL;DR: I don't feel that Ash 'sucks'. He just has no team abilities. He's still a good frame, in need of buffs to have actual team contribution. Otherwise he's stuck 'indirectly' contributing.

Edit:Ash is unable to directly contribute to the team directly, unlike other frames that can use abilities like M.Prime, Radial Blind, Stomp, Blessing, etc. Ash is able to help the team indirectly by taking advantage of others abilities, M.Prime for one, and stacking it with Melee 2.0 and stealth.

I don't know if I should call this a rant, or whatever, I'm just trying to put my point of view out there that Ash is, yes, in need of buffs to be more team friendly, but this doesn't necessarily make him bad, just, different in the current frame standings.

So, I've been reading around the forums, and one of the threads caught my attention. Whats your most hated warframe? As I was reading it, I honestly didn't expect to see people hate on Ash so much. I generally thought he was in an 'okay' standing in the community. Yeah, I know he can't contribute to the team directly, in fact, I have an entire thread dedicated to that right here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/168784-ash-ninja-assassin-fear-personafied/

Onto why I'm posting this now. Ash is far beyond useless. Just take a moment and think about it. A lot of people say he's great at soloing, so, doesn't it click that, if he can do things on his own so well, he must have something going for him to not make him useless? Honestly, I can understand why people hate Blade Storm, there is no hiding it, it's an absolutely awful skill. It's a panic button you say? Whatever survives through the panic button is going to be waiting to kick your &#! right down, so yes, I honestly think it's horrible. I've said it on my other thread, and I shall continue to say it. Blade Storm as it is, is eye candy, that is all.

With the addition of melee 2.0. I'm quite impressed at how melee scales now. I've always used melee even during 1.0, but 2.0, I feel like it's drawn out more potential out of Ash. People may hate on him, but he practically is my starter frame (bought with plat when I first started), my most used frame, and my most loved frame. There is without a doubt that Ash needs to be buffed in certain areas to include some team play, but this does not mean he cannot contribute to the group at all.

Before melee 2.0, I would be the one person that focused on getting the heavies down asap, be with melee or with a firearm. Now with melee 2.0, I don't even bother bringing in a gun unless it's necessary (Certain flying enemies can't be damaged with melee, even at ground level point blank for some.. reason?).

Last night, I was farming for the Ankyros Prime Gauntlets. In Tower 2 survival, in a group of three, myself as Ash, a Nova, and a Trinity with a penta, we stayed for an entire hour before getting bored and decided to call it a night. Could we have stayed longer? Hell yes. Was it because the Trinity Kept us all Alive? No. Was it because the Nova was Priming everything? No. Was it because I, as Ash, was Stealth dooring mobs? No. In fact, it was a group effort. What? Group effort with an Ash? What kind of crack smoke are you on? Well this is how it went down:

Without a word, we all knew we had to come together in a room, and fight off the absolutely ridiculous spawn waves we were introduced with. We literately couldn't even go through a hall-way or door because there was so much clutter. So, the Trinity cast blessing, which Kept the Nova alive. In turn, the Nova cast M.Prime, which in turn increased everyones damage. As a stealth Ash, Blessing honestly didn't effect me much at all, to be quite honest and fair, but because of blessing, Nova was able to increase the damage from my stealth melee combos into absolute madness. 200 hit Combos with a 3x Damage multiplier on-top of Novas 2x damage to enemies. It was absolutely amazing.

As Ash, I was able to contribute to the party in a great amount 'indirectly', by taking care of the higher threats, then continuing on to take care of the leftover mess. The results screen I was introduced to after we gave up on after an hour of Prime hunting (which, was horrible, we got no forma, like 5 AKBronco Prime BP's, and credits), was absolutely amazing. I never had such a large grin on my face in the longest of times. Well. Instead of trying to describe it, why not show you instead?

VhHQSS6.jpg

and just to show what levels the enemies were at the 1 hour mark:

6uRQ0wE.jpg

Edit: Again, what I'm trying to get at here is, that Ash is not a horrible frame like some take him to be. Sure, he's inferior to Loki due to utility, but I still belive Ash is a 'good' frame. He's just in need of some team utility buffs to make him more team friendly to the team, so he can contribute in a more obvious manner.

Edited by Shuuro
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Sweet. I do agree about Blade Storm, though. Ash was my second frame after loki, and blade storm is very cool, but 2000 damage isn't that much in the later levels, and it takes too long. Mag, Oberon, or Ember could kill more instantly than ash could in ten seconds with their Uber.

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Loki has longer stealth duration and better team contribution with his other skills than Ash.

 

Excalibur's radial blind causes enemies to revert to unalerted status which provides the same damage boost as being stealth and your entire team gets the benefit.

 

I do agree that Ash needs a buff but tbh I don't even know how I'd buff him.

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He's a cool factor frame. However in higher levels his only useful skill is his invisibility. Other skills become irrelevant because they don't kill everything they touch. And teleport, well, can bite you in the &#! a lot. I just like spamming it, thinking it's cool. Loki on the other hand has an invisible skill that last a lot longer. Plus he has two skills that come in use regardless of level. Hell, even switch teleport becomes more useful that throwing a ninja star, or teleporting into a stagger. But Loki is fine for solo's... and he's cool to look at...but really, you can say what you want. Loki is a lot more useful and is overall a better frame. Because ash, isn't too offensive when his skills hit everything like a fly..and as you said, he has zero team contribution skills

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Your tl;dr doesn't actually sum up your topic, since the upshot is that Ash functions as a high sustained damage dealer within the new melee system, thus benefiting the team by taking advantage of debuff abilities. Most of your topic is about how great Ash is now that melee has been overhauled, not how he needs to be buffed.

 

With respect to Blade Storm, you should activate it when you're not surrounded by mobs, because of course you'll get knocked down or whatever when you return to your starting position if it was in the middle of enemies. It has a 50 meter cast radius so you should basically always be able to fully recharge your shields/be invulnerable for as long as a Trinity Blessing before returning to safety.

 

Not saying Blade Storm doesn't need to be tweaked, but if you use it correctly, it's a better panic button than you give it credit for here.

 

If I were buffing Ash I would make two changes to his Teleport first.

1. If Ash isn't locked onto an enemy unit when casting Teleport, he will instead Teleport the ability's maximum distance in the direction he's pointing. This ability cannot be used to Teleport off the map.

2. If Ash kills an enemy unit within five seconds of casting Teleport, the energy cost will be refunded.

 

This would make him a better medic, even better at fulfilling his role as a mobile brawler/tank hybrid and encourage players to use Teleport more actively rather than to escape from combat.

 

Blade Storm could probably use some small changes. Perhaps multiple smoke bombs could erupt in the 20 m radius around the initial target within which Blade Storm targets are selected, staggering units just like Ash's Smoke Screen. Then enemy units could run in terror like during Nekros's Terrify for the duration of the ability. It would give him more of a team-oriented buff, though I don't think he needs it.

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Loki has longer stealth duration and better team contribution with his other skills than Ash.

 

Excalibur's radial blind causes enemies to revert to unalerted status which provides the same damage boost as being stealth and your entire team gets the benefit.

 

I do agree that Ash needs a buff but tbh I don't even know how I'd buff him.

 

Yes. I completely agree. Loki and other frames contribute to the team way better than Ash could at this point. In my other thread, I've pretty much stated that an Excalibro using a radial blind build does what Ash could do in team form, but better. Imagine an Ash that could stealth ally's in a small radius around him as he drops a smoke screen? I'll leave a topic like this to my other thread, but again, I agree. Direct team contribution on Ash is horrible. I still think he's a 'good' frame though. Just in need of some loving/buffs.

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Your tl;dr doesn't actually sum up your topic, since the upshot is that Ash functions as a high sustained damage dealer within the new melee system, thus benefiting the team by taking advantage of debuff abilities. Most of your topic is about how great Ash is now that melee has been overhauled, not how he needs to be buffed.

 

With respect to Blade Storm, you should activate it when you're not surrounded by mobs, because of course you'll get knocked down or whatever when you return to your starting position if it was in the middle of enemies. It has a 50 meter cast radius so you should basically always be able to fully recharge your shields/be invulnerable for as long as a Trinity Blessing before returning to safety.

 

Not saying Blade Storm doesn't need to be tweaked, but if you use it correctly, it's a better panic button than you give it credit for here.

 

If I were buffing Ash I would make two changes to his Teleport first.

1. If Ash isn't locked onto an enemy unit when casting Teleport, he will instead Teleport the ability's maximum distance in the direction he's pointing. This ability cannot be used to Teleport off the map.

2. If Ash kills an enemy unit within five seconds of casting Teleport, the energy cost will be refunded.

 

This would make him a better medic, even better at fulfilling his role as a mobile brawler/tank hybrid and encourage players to use Teleport more actively rather than to escape from combat.

 

Blade Storm could probably use some small changes. Perhaps multiple smoke bombs could erupt in the 20 m radius around the initial target within which Blade Storm targets are selected, staggering units just like Ash's Smoke Screen. Then enemy units could run in terror like during Nekros's Terrify for the duration of the ability. It would give him more of a team-oriented buff, though I don't think he needs it.

2. is a no, one is something i've said for awhile. 

 

In regards to bladestorm a smoke screen stun at the start is nah. What about the enemies get confused trying to track him and kinda spin around looking for him confused about what's going on around them. This will be more or less a stun, and will serve as a pressure release.

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-snip-

 

What I'm trying to get at, is that Ash can't contribute directly to a team like how Nova can Prime, Trinity can Bless, Loki can Disarm, Rhino can stomp, etc. Ash can though, contribute to the team indirectly by being able to take advantage of other factors. I'll try and tweak the TL;DR though. Thank you.

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Infinite content is not the object of balance.  Ash can take out dangerous heavy Grineer with 4, teleport to an ally's aid (also staggers the target) with 3, stagger in a radius with 2, and revive downed teammates in stealth with 2.  Three of his four abilities are useful to his teammates.  

Edited by RealPandemonium
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If it actually did it's jobs maybe. Blade Storm is pathetic against anything in the higher planets, so forget survival or defense in general. Teleport will still get you killed unless you are in stealth, and just because you can pick someone up in stealth doesn't really contribute to the team. If you're wasting time picking people up, then that is time wasted killing the enemy. Blade Storm is supposed to stun and kill? Even without powers, Blade Storm is outmatched by Melee and Guns by other people in the group. Teleport is in an okay spot as it is, it just needs to be free aim. Nova can do it, and it works for the other members in the party, so why not? Area stun with smoke bomb is pathetic unless you use it with overextend, and even then, that is a stun you can only use every 8~20 seconds depending on how long you're stealth lasts.

 

So. Let's compare those three skills to others:

 

Smoke Bomb: This is more defense orientated. Radial Blind does a better job, stuns and locks everyone in the room in CC, and rooms beyond the room you're in with overextend, in CC. Same with Stomp, Hydroids tentacles, Lokis Radial Disarm is also great CC, Valkyr's tornadoes (as much as we ate them), Volts shock, Nyx's chaos. All good stuns or CC's. Yet they're not as restricting. So the Area Stun of smoke screen is moot. Smoke screen is meant for stealth. Stealth is also very strong. A great way I could see this getting some team play in it if it gave stealth to nearby allies around you. Other frames already have great CC without restrictions to how far or close party members are, so this wouldn't be that bad. It could even be a nerffed version of the stealth Ash would get, to not make it too overpowering. Make Ash get his usual stealth, but allies get like a 1/2 duration stealth or something, or maybe their stealth ends when they attack. There's a lot to make out of this. This could also be what makes the Stealth Ash has, different from Loki's.

 

Teleport: It really is fine as it is. The range is respectable. The only thing that truly needs to be added to this is free aim. It would give Ash that mobility he needs to be Ninja, and get to point A to point B as fast as possible to help teammates out, or take care of a serious threat.

 

Blade Storm: It's just laughable. I've taken blade storm, with overextend + blind rage. The damage from blind rage canceled out and still increased the damage above norm. I tried it out on Ceres. It still. Sucks. Seriously bad. No matter what people say. It's horrible. You can't depend on it to kill. You cannot depend on it to be a panic button. Smoke Screen serves as a better panic button. If your in a situation where you seriously need to use it to restore your shields. Whats going to happen after? Most likely the enemy will not die. So they'll be waiting for you to beat you right back down. If no allies are around, you're pretty much screwed. Oh but blade storm should be used from afar? Then you can't call it a damn panic button because you should NOT be in range of anyone since you are using it from afar, away from enemies. Blade Storm either needs a serious tweak besides giving a melee counter bonus, or just a full overhaul and transition those blade storm animations somewhere else. Even if you give melee bonus damage amplifier to Blade Storm. Around 200 hits is 3x melee damage. 3x damage on a 2000 Damage blade storm is only 6000 per enemy. It's useless when you're better off using that multiplier for Stealth melee, which should be hitting in the tens of thousands.

 

I will repeat this again. Ash is not bad. He does not 'suck' as people assume him to be. As he stands now, he really is the 'selfish' frame. The lone wolf. He barely is capable of contributing directly to the team. The only way he can contribute is indirectly. What I mean by indirectly, is that he can kill, and do things well on his own, but just because he can do things on his own, doesn't mean that everyone else on the team is better off. This is why people would rather have Loki over Ash. Ash cannot contribute to the team, Loki can. So can nearly every other frame. Ash is in need, of some team utility. Please DE. Show the frame that, as stated, is a reflection of ancient history, some love.

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I'm actually hoping for DE to have Bladestorm be able to obtain the benefit of your combo damage multiplier, since each hit from Bladestorm now counts toward your melee combo counter while haveing your melee weapon out. Stupid that DE didn't have the multiplier count for the ability in the first place if it counts for the counter.

Edited by Yazeth
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If it actually did it's jobs maybe. Blade Storm is pathetic against anything in the higher planets, so forget survival or defense in general. Teleport will still get you killed unless you are in stealth, and just because you can pick someone up in stealth doesn't really contribute to the team. If you're wasting time picking people up, then that is time wasted killing the enemy. Blade Storm is supposed to stun and kill? Even without powers, Blade Storm is outmatched by Melee and Guns by other people in the group. Teleport is in an okay spot as it is, it just needs to be free aim. Nova can do it, and it works for the other members in the party, so why not? Area stun with smoke bomb is pathetic unless you use it with overextend, and even then, that is a stun you can only use every 8~20 seconds depending on how long you're stealth lasts.

 

So. Let's compare those three skills to others:

 

Smoke Bomb: This is more defense orientated. Radial Blind does a better job, stuns and locks everyone in the room in CC, and rooms beyond the room you're in with overextend, in CC. Same with Stomp, Hydroids tentacles, Lokis Radial Disarm is also great CC, Valkyr's tornadoes (as much as we ate them), Volts shock, Nyx's chaos. All good stuns or CC's. Yet they're not as restricting. So the Area Stun of smoke screen is moot. Smoke screen is meant for stealth. Stealth is also very strong. A great way I could see this getting some team play in it if it gave stealth to nearby allies around you. Other frames already have great CC without restrictions to how far or close party members are, so this wouldn't be that bad. It could even be a nerffed version of the stealth Ash would get, to not make it too overpowering. Make Ash get his usual stealth, but allies get like a 1/2 duration stealth or something, or maybe their stealth ends when they attack. There's a lot to make out of this. This could also be what makes the Stealth Ash has, different from Loki's.

 

Teleport: It really is fine as it is. The range is respectable. The only thing that truly needs to be added to this is free aim. It would give Ash that mobility he needs to be Ninja, and get to point A to point B as fast as possible to help teammates out, or take care of a serious threat.

 

Blade Storm: It's just laughable. I've taken blade storm, with overextend + blind rage. The damage from blind rage canceled out and still increased the damage above norm. I tried it out on Ceres. It still. Sucks. Seriously bad. No matter what people say. It's horrible. You can't depend on it to kill. You cannot depend on it to be a panic button. Smoke Screen serves as a better panic button. If your in a situation where you seriously need to use it to restore your shields. Whats going to happen after? Most likely the enemy will not die. So they'll be waiting for you to beat you right back down. If no allies are around, you're pretty much screwed. Oh but blade storm should be used from afar? Then you can't call it a damn panic button because you should NOT be in range of anyone since you are using it from afar, away from enemies. Blade Storm either needs a serious tweak besides giving a melee counter bonus, or just a full overhaul and transition those blade storm animations somewhere else. Even if you give melee bonus damage amplifier to Blade Storm. Around 200 hits is 3x melee damage. 3x damage on a 2000 Damage blade storm is only 6000 per enemy. It's useless when you're better off using that multiplier for Stealth melee, which should be hitting in the tens of thousands.

 

I will repeat this again. Ash is not bad. He does not 'suck' as people assume him to be. As he stands now, he really is the 'selfish' frame. The lone wolf. He barely is capable of contributing directly to the team. The only way he can contribute is indirectly. What I mean by indirectly, is that he can kill, and do things well on his own, but just because he can do things on his own, doesn't mean that everyone else on the team is better off. This is why people would rather have Loki over Ash. Ash cannot contribute to the team, Loki can. So can nearly every other frame. Ash is in need, of some team utility. Please DE. Show the frame that, as stated, is a reflection of ancient history, some love.

Why would you take Overextended on a damage skill?  3140 damage for 25 energy that ignores armor is a reliable kill on Grineer heavies until you hit the mid 30s and it will leave Grineer heavies at critical hp until the mid 40s, to say nothing for regular mobswhich will still be dying in the 40s.  It's one of the best frame abilities period.  The fact that Nova exists and that weapons are too strong for the content we have now if you have mods doesn't mean Blade Storm is bad, it just means that there's stupidly overpowered things around.  You have to compare abilities to other abilities since at the end of the day any moron can mod up his penta and trivialize 95% of content.  Compared against other abilities Blade Storm is unique and powerful, barring Miasma and MPrime which are currently broken.  Ash can contribute to his team as stated above, it just requires some creativity and actual gameplay instead of spamming a skill every few seconds indefinitely.  

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I think smokescreen shouldn't last as long as Loki since it would make Loki's invisibility useless. It should give your teammates that's nearby Ash temporary invisibility as a buff.

 

Blade storm should also have bonus invisibility damage if Ash is invisible. If it can add more numbers to his combo, then it should get more damage if he is invisible while casting it.

 

His Shurikens should have a 100% chance to cause bleeding.

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I think smokescreen shouldn't last as long as Loki since it would make Loki's invisibility useless. It should give your teammates that's nearby Ash temporary invisibility as a buff.

 

Blade storm should also have bonus invisibility damage if Ash is invisible. If it can add more numbers to his combo, then it should get more damage if he is invisible while casting it.

 

His Shurikens should have a 100% chance to cause bleeding.

Adding 2 seconds to Smoke Screen would make Ash build much less dependent on duration.  Even if they were the same duration (that would be adding 4 seconds,) Loki runs super fast, has a decoy, can cross 50m instantly without a target, and can turn every faction into Infested, so it's not like everyone would dump Loki for Ash.  

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I just finished doing a run, testing Blade Storm with blind rage and Intensify, doing 4040 damage per hit. Napalms stopped dying at level 29, heavy gunners and bombards stopped dying at around level 31~33. I'd post screen shots, but I forgot I had my UI not show up during screenshots. I'll try and get some again in a bit. In short, any skills that focus on doing 'just damage' fall short of useless. Unless Blade Storm can give some significant bonus, it's still not worth using.

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Smoke Screen is 35 energy for 8 seconds with a small radial stun.

 

Invisibility is 12 seconds for 50 energy.

 

In short, modding both frames for duration and efficiency would give them just about equal Energy/Duration ratios. Ash can stay in stealth just as good as any Loki. Loki's may last longer, but Ash's is cheaper. Comparing the two is almost pointless after you mod for them.

 

Edit: Typo.

Edited by Shuuro
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Ash is one of the fastest frames, but most of his ability kit makes it uncomfortable to be fast when they suddenly stop your movement.

Shurikens, unlike recent changes to other abilities, it's still not considered a 1 handed skill.  Ash can't reload/move while keeping up his damage like Volt or Ember.

Smokescreen, same problem with Shuriken. Can't move while casting, can't be airborne, stops momentum very quickly.

Bladestorm, takes you entirely out of control forever while it slowly kills foes, and then puts you back in the same spot you started. 

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Alright. So I got a few screenshots now. Napalms actually started living against the 4040 blade storm at around level 24 or 25. I couldn't get a screen shot because honestly, I actually expected it to die. I couldn't find another one around that level, but I think the screenshots I have will prove my point.

 

 

Image showing Blade Storm doing 4040 damage:

GAoVU3o.jpg

 

Image showing level 28 Napalms health after a blade storm:

hxFPXnR.jpg

XIMUGNz.jpg

 

Image showing level 34 Bombards health after a blade storm:

FgYL5N5.jpg

39o9CcA.jpg

 

In the end. Blade Storm is just a very, very slow damage dealing ability. As with all damage dealing abilities, they end up not even having a use. Durring trying to get these screenshots, Blade Storm took so long at times that Allies had actually gone down. Imagine trying to defend something? The object would probably die by the time you're done.

 

Again. Blade Storm is an Eye Candy ability that is only good at the low tier areas. It is a damage ability that does not scale well at all, does not give ANY team contribution what so ever, and cannot even be considered as a panic button if things are going to be alive when you're done blade storming anyway.

 

Blade Storm, as with Ash's other abilities need to be given some utility of some sort to be able to benefit the team. Ash is great being able to do things on his own. Not being able to contribute to the team though is a heavy loss.

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Ash is one of the fastest frames, but most of his ability kit makes it uncomfortable to be fast when they suddenly stop your movement.

Shurikens, unlike recent changes to other abilities, it's still not considered a 1 handed skill.  Ash can't reload/move while keeping up his damage like Volt or Ember.

Smokescreen, same problem with Shuriken. Can't move while casting, can't be airborne, stops momentum very quickly.

Bladestorm, takes you entirely out of control forever while it slowly kills foes, and then puts you back in the same spot you started. 

 

Actually. You can still run, slide, shoot, and reload while using Shuriken without interruption. Just tested it myself. Although since, again, all it aims for is doing damage, it comes up short as useless fairly early. A good change to shuriken though, in my opinion, would to add a Stun to it, and maybe even a debuff. Could also split apart the damage over 4 shuriken instead of two to help add onto the stun/debuff utility. Instead of 2 shuriken doing 500 damage each, why not 4 shuriken doing 250 damage each, and stun/debuff? It would be a good start for adding utility.

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I just wish that they can buff bladestorm in some way, but keep the amazing animations...

 

Hm, maybe something such as smoke-clones of Ash, all appearing over every bladestorm target at once, and killing them with an animation Ash is doing on his target? So we can keep the animations, only we see ash do it once per bladestorm, as all enemies get hit at once?

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I just wish that they can buff bladestorm in some way, but keep the amazing animations...

 

Hm, maybe something such as smoke-clones of Ash, all appearing over every bladestorm target at once, and killing them with an animation Ash is doing on his target? So we can keep the animations, only we see ash do it once per bladestorm, as all enemies get hit at once?

 

That would be one way of adding some utility to it. Since all enemies will be hit at once, it fixes the long duration of the skill, and since everyone is being attacked by Blade Storm at once, it could be counted as a crowd control skill possibly? Maybe have enemies dazed/confused for about a second afterwards? It's one of many possibilities.

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