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Reaper Prime & Hate


Ariarch
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Yep, I'm back again. Again. It seems scythes are starting to be disregarded and I am here to get them fixed. It seems that they have been entirely sidelined after the new sword additions(I'm talking about the Dragon Nikana and the Galatine). Since they share a similar niche in the melee weapons area, I suggest buffing them to something similar in strength, especially considering the Hate and the Reaper Prime's general rarity(It can take weeks to get these). So I would recommend that their strength be reconsidered in light of their rarity and recent melee weapon additions.

 

That's all,

Ariarch

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Ariarch, I don't have proof saved for now - but I've found that the Crimson Dervish applies a 2x to 3x damage multiplier to all of Dakra Prime's attacks, for only a very slight reduction in attack speed. This was discovered during a performance comparison between Dragon Nikana and Dakra Prime.

 

It will depend on my schedule, but I might start investigating melee multipliers for every stance available. I have starting looking at Scythes as a matter of personal taste - initial tests imply Stalking Fan also applies large multipliers, perhaps even larger than Dakra Prime. 

 

So get yourself a Reaper Prime with Stalking Fan and start swinging - you may be surprised. 

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I've got that dilemma now, I'm looking at the weapons available, and, pure damage wise, the dragon nikana blows everything out of the water. But pure damage is not the only thing to think about. From what I've seen, the scythes have the most AoE of most (axes and great swords may have more) stances, which multiples the damage you do on it's own. And as Striss mentioned, the multipliers are nothing to sneeze at ever if the Nikana has roughly 1.7x the damage, if the scythes have more AoE, and a better multiplier, they become situation-ally much, much better. I'd be willing to bet I can wipe a room of infested quicker with the stalking fan then with the dragon nikana. Well see, I think for the most part, DE should be keeping track of everything and making sure nothing get completely overshadowed, I hope.

 

Striss, please let me know what you find. I'd really like to know.

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I did a side-by-side comparision, and the Reaper Prime and Hate had the exact same stats save the speed. Since the Hate looks so darn cool and it comes from the Stalker only, I would suggest revision of the Hate to be stronger than the Reaper Prime, except a little differently.

What are the materials the Hate is made from? The Reaper Prime is made from rubidium. Assuming the rubidium of the Warframe is that of the real world, it would actually swing slower than a pure iron scythe. The Hate looks like its made from a steel-like material with possibly a carbon-polymer handle, which is lighter and stronger than steel, therefore giving it a faster swing and a more durable build. However, the question remains - what has the rubidium been mixed with to give the admixture its characteristics? Perhaps we get too much into chemistry, but I would like to create a credible base on which to say the hate should be better than the reaper prime.

I'm not quite certain which attributes of real-world rubidium are kept or removed for gameplay purposes, but considering what has been mentioned before, I would increase the speed of the hate to 1.2-1.3. I would suggest revising its status to have a higher crit chance, around 20% or so. The status should also be altered to accommodate the increased weight of the steel of the Hate, and in general make it a great weapon.

Looking at the stats of the ether reaper, its crit and status rate are the same as that of the hate and reaper prime.

Seeing as how we're dealing with 3 different materials here, it would be good to alter their crit and status rates accordingly.

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I did a side-by-side comparision, and the Reaper Prime and Hate had the exact same stats save the speed. Since the Hate looks so darn cool and it comes from the Stalker only, I would suggest revision of the Hate to be stronger than the Reaper Prime, except a little differently.

What are the materials the Hate is made from? The Reaper Prime is made from rubidium. Assuming the rubidium of the Warframe is that of the real world, it would actually swing slower than a pure iron scythe. The Hate looks like its made from a steel-like material with possibly a carbon-polymer handle, which is lighter and stronger than steel, therefore giving it a faster swing and a more durable build. However, the question remains - what has the rubidium been mixed with to give the admixture its characteristics? Perhaps we get too much into chemistry, but I would like to create a credible base on which to say the hate should be better than the reaper prime.

I'm not quite certain which attributes of real-world rubidium are kept or removed for gameplay purposes, but considering what has been mentioned before, I would increase the speed of the hate to 1.2-1.3. I would suggest revising its status to have a higher crit chance, around 20% or so. The status should also be altered to accommodate the increased weight of the steel of the Hate, and in general make it a great weapon.

Looking at the stats of the ether reaper, its crit and status rate are the same as that of the hate and reaper prime.

Seeing as how we're dealing with 3 different materials here, it would be good to alter their crit and status rates accordingly.

Just saying....

Orokin master race.

Primes > all, technologically speaking.

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I'm in agreement with the Reaper Prime being better. But I am biased about it. So let's not compare and contrast them and create a mess about which should be better, I've done that before. Let's compare them to the Dragon Nikana, the Galatine, (Damage and Status) the Scoliac and Scindo(AoE), Fang/Prime (Speed) and some others for Crit. Scythes aren't appropriately given a niche in the end-game content. I'm afraid they will be put in the background and forgotten; as it seems that they are some of the hardest weapons to acquire,  they should be given more thought and consideration. 

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I'm in agreement with the Reaper Prime being better. But I am biased about it. So let's not compare and contrast them and create a mess about which should be better, I've done that before. Let's compare them to the Dragon Nikana, the Galatine, (Damage and Status) the Scoliac and Scindo(AoE), Fang/Prime (Speed) and some others for Crit. Scythes aren't appropriately given a niche in the end-game content. I'm afraid they will be put in the background and forgotten; as it seems that they are some of the hardest weapons to acquire,  they should be given more thought and consideration. 

Their niche is pure badassery.

 

But I definitely see your point. Scythes have a decent AoE, but if you want AoE then you should be using a whip. They aren't particularly slow, but they aren't fast either. The Dakra Prime (with Crimson Dervish) is the current king of damage. Reaping Spiral has a ranged attack, but I don't know how aim-able it is, and if you want ranged melee then there's already 3 Glaives to compete with.

 

Scythes seem to be a sort of jack-of-all-trades weapon type, but jack-of-all-trades doesn't really work well in this game. It seems as if the current future of Scythes is looking cool-and doing it on solo. Because everything's dead before you get to it.

 

Because ranged combat can still literally one-shot anything.

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I'm in agreement with the Reaper Prime being better. But I am biased about it. So let's not compare and contrast them and create a mess about which should be better, I've done that before.

It'll only become a mess if emotions rule thought instead of the other way around. I've made reasonable assertions and if we stay within the bounds of reasoning, a good discussion should come of it.

 

Primes > all, technologically speaking.

I disagree with that. How do we know the Stalker is not using Sentient technology, which seemed to be on par with the Orokin? Remember, they nearly destroyed the Orokin according to the lore.

 

Why not have Orokin tech (prime) vs the last remaining piece of sentient technology, the Hate? Seeing as how the Stalker was a low guardian, and the Tenno were presented with awards after their service, the Stalker could very well have gotten a scythe from a Sentient warrior and kept it as a trophy, while the Orokin took their design and made a faster version of it.

Since the lore is still incomplete, that could be an interesting bit of information right there.

 

We could have the Orokin Tech be faster, while the Sentient weapon hits harder (crit boost)?

It'd be kind of like a play on the battle between Corpus and Grineer. Orokin and Sentient. Faster and more efficient vs slower and more brutal, though I'd like to see the Hate have at least 1.0 speed if fury will not be returned to its previous state.

Edited by -SLX-J3tAc3
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It'll only become a mess if emotions rule thought instead of the other way around. I've made reasonable assertions and if we stay within the bounds of reasoning, a good discussion should come of it.

 

I disagree with that. How do we know the Stalker is not using Sentient technology, which seemed to be on par with the Orokin? Remember, they nearly destroyed the Orokin according to the lore.

 

Why not have Orokin tech (prime) vs the last remaining piece of sentient technology, the Hate? Seeing as how the Stalker was a low guardian, and the Tenno were presented with awards after their service, the Stalker could very well have gotten a scythe from a Sentient warrior and kept it as a trophy, while the Orokin took their design and made a faster version of it.

Since the lore is still incomplete, that could be an interesting bit of information right there.

 

We could have the Orokin Tech be faster, while the Sentient weapon hits harder (crit boost)?

It'd be kind of like a play on the battle between Corpus and Grineer. Orokin and Sentient. Faster and more efficient vs slower and more brutal, though I'd like to see the Hate have at least 1.0 speed if fury will not be returned to its previous state.

Lore-wise, I doubt the Sentients used weaponry like we imagine it. Honestly, I don't think the Sentients even have their own weaponry at all. They hacked the Orokin's technology and used it against them, which is why the Tenno were do effective: they were ye olde fashioned. I doubt the Sentients had any form of physical weapons, especially not of their own design, simply because if they did I doubt the Tenno would have wiped them out so utterly.

 

Though Reaper Prime being fast and decently strong with Hate being a slow, heavy hitter is a good idea.

Edited by fishworshipper
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I disagree with that. How do we know the Stalker is not using Sentient technology, which seemed to be on par with the Orokin? Remember, they nearly destroyed the Orokin according to the lore.

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that the Stalker is using Orokin technology.  He was one of their guards, after all.  Of course, that means his scythe should be equal to Reaper Prime.  So perhaps slightly slower with slightly more damage would do the trick.

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At the moment, the different between the 3 scythes are:

Hate has 60 damage, 15% proc, and 0.9 speed

RP has 60 damage, 12% proc, and 1.1 speed

ER has 55 damage, 15% proc, and 1.1 speed

 

Personally, the three scythes are fairly well balanced at the moment, with reaper prime a little ahead, and the other two equal.

ER deserves more puncture then slash

Hate should be like 0.8 but 65-70 damage damage

RP is fine, IMO

Edited by Warriorrogue
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Lore-wise, I doubt the Sentients used weaponry like we imagine it. Honestly, I don't think the Sentients even have their own weaponry at all. They hacked the Orokin's technology and used it against them, which is why the Tenno were do effective: they were ye olde fashioned. I doubt the Sentients had any form of physical weapons, especially not of their own design, simply because if they did I doubt the Tenno would have wiped them out so utterly.

 

Though Reaper Prime being fast and decently strong with Hate being a slow, heavy hitter is a good idea.

Oh, that's right, I totally forgot about that - the Sentient turned Orokin tech back upon them, thank you for the reminder.

After looking my previous post over, I was a little vague in what I meant by the Stalker getting the scythe he has now. What I meant was, suppose The Stalker had taken the weapon from a fallen enemy as a trophy instead of a straight copy of the Reaper Prime (call it kind of like his "red badge of courage")?

 

I think it is a pretty safe assumption that the Stalker is using Orokin technology.  He was one of their guards, after all.

Yeah, we're saying the same thing, albeit a little differently. My proposition is that the Hate is the Sentients' copy on the Orokin's RP. But, this hinges on something that may not be completely clear. Looking at the text about the Sentients, it says,

"The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed."

 

So then, the question here is, was the Reaper Prime part of the Orokin arsenal before they turned to The Void? If so, the Sentients could have made their own copy of it and used it against them, in keeping with the lore. However, since we can only get the RP from The Void, it would seem to stand to reason, even more so, that the RP did not exist until they turned to the Void, making its debut along with the Tenno.

Considering the self-appointed role of The Stalker, it seems quite possible that he may have taken the RP and remade it to be more vicious as an outward expression of his hatred for "The Betrayers."

Looking at the materials of the Hate (without color changes), it seems to be more "brutal", less "refined". Seeing as how the Sentients were behind the Orokin in weapons tech and could only copy them, this seems to lend some credence as to the Hate coming from them - yet at this same time, we still don't quite know the defining characteristics of the Sentients - were they a brutal, warlike people, the "Grineer", as it were, and the Orokin the "Corpus"?

 

Is the Hate the Stalker's own creation? Is it his spin on the Ether reaper or RP? Or is it a Sentient copy of Orokin tech?

The Prime weapons and warframes have gold coloring in them at one point or another.The Void towers are white and gold.

Now, here is the interesting thing: the opposite of white is black, and the opposite of gold is silver. The Hate itself is black and silver. The Sentients were in opposition to the Orokin, so then we could say that the Hate is Sentient tech, with the coloring and design of the weapons being symbolic of the opposing peoples.

 

Some food for thought.

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Personally, the three scythes are fairly well balanced at the moment, with reaper prime a little ahead, and the other two equal.

ER deserves more puncture then slash

Hate should be like 0.8 but 65-70 damage damage

RP is fine, IMO

Right, but I'm considering who the Hate drops from and how hard it is for many folks to get to be reflected in its stats. Should it be a little overpowered (if that term would apply here)? I think so since it's the Stalker's weapon and due to its difficulty to acquire by many people (unless I've just been struck with the Charlie Brown syndrome for the whole time I've been on WF). I haven't heard that many people talking about how easy it is to get the Hate, but I may be missing something.

Perhaps the Hate can have 15/15 proc and crit. Its damage can remain the same or be slightly increased to 70 or stay the same, while its speed reduced to 0.8. Looking at its design, I would increase its puncture rate, though, and leave slash as it is.

However, as I said before, I propose those stats to reflect who it comes from owner and its drop rate, but that's just a sidenote from the main discussion.

Edited by -SLX-J3tAc3
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Is the Hate the Stalker's own creation? Is it his spin on the Ether reaper or RP? Or is it a Sentient copy of Orokin tech?

The Prime weapons and warframes have gold coloring in them at one point or another.The Void towers are white and gold.

Now, here is the interesting thing: the opposite of white is black, and the opposite of gold is silver. The Hate itself is black and silver. The Sentients were in opposition to the Orokin, so then we could say that the Hate is Sentient tech, with the coloring and design of the weapons being symbolic of the opposing peoples.

 

Some food for thought.

With the Stalker on his quest for vengeance for the old regime, and even his naming of his weapons, I rather doubt he'd use Sentient tech.  This is about payback for what the Tenno did the Orokin.  He's going to use Orokin tech, not a Sentient version of it.

 

Though as far as that goes, the whole blurb about the Sentients to me sounds like they are rogue AIs that were taking over and controlling whatever new high tech gizmos the Orokin Empire came up with.  So they went back to simple things... biological bodies with guns and swords.  And that worked... So as far as that goes, it wouldn't make sense for it to be a Sentient weapon.  Sentient weapons were Orokin weapons... before they went lo-tech.  Think more along the lines of robots and the system responsible for the Corrupted on the Void missions.  Not scythes, throwing daggers, and bows.

Edited by Axterix13
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Right, but I'm considering who the Hate drops from and how hard it is for many folks to get to be reflected in its stats. Should it be a little overpowered (if that term would apply here)? I think so since it's the Stalker's weapon and due to its difficulty to acquire by many people (unless I've just been struck with the Charlie Brown syndrome for the whole time I've been on WF). I haven't heard that many people talking about how easy it is to get the Hate, but I may be missing something.

Perhaps the Hate can have 15/15 proc and crit. Its damage can remain the same or be slightly increased to 70 or stay the same, while its speed reduced to 0.8. Looking at its design, I would increase its puncture rate, though, and leave slash as it is.

However, as I said before, I propose those stats to reflect who it comes from owner and its drop rate, but that's just a sidenote from the main discussion.

I think if you make it the most powerful scythe, couple with how it is pure RNG to get, with a low drop chance meaning it can and will screw people over, that isn't a good idea.  At best, a side-grade.  Different stats/look, but equal power level.

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Ive stopped worrying about stats for weapons and just going with whatever looks amazing. Scythes (especially the reaper prime) are my favorite looking weapons. While other weapons seem to outshine them in a specific field i still use them becuase of aesthetics. and the  damage output isnt even that bad! I am still taking it to tier 3 void missions and using them often. maybe one more hit is required but with stances that hardly matters.

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With the Stalker on his quest for vengeance for the old regime, and even his naming of his weapons, I rather doubt he'd use Sentient tech.  This is about payback for what the Tenno did the Orokin.  He's going to use Orokin tech, not a Sentient version of it.

Considering the weaponry of the Void, it seems that the Sentients did indeed use energy-based projectile weapons, so we would remove the Hate being a Sentient copy then. The codex's usage of the term "old ways" would mean "ancient" in this case.

 

I think if you make it the most powerful scythe, couple with how it is pure RNG to get, with a low drop chance meaning it can and will screw people over, that isn't a good idea.  At best, a side-grade.  Different stats/look, but equal power level.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this head. Considering the current drop system, where the more valuable pieces of content are hard to find, that would be keeping in line with the standard practice - the more valuable, the harder it is to get and the more rewarding when you get it.

 

 

Though as far as that goes, the whole blurb about the Sentients to me sounds like they are rogue AIs that were taking over and controlling whatever new high tech gizmos the Orokin Empire came up with.  So they went back to simple things... biological bodies with guns and swords.  And that worked... So as far as that goes, it wouldn't make sense for it to be a Sentient weapon.  Sentient weapons were Orokin weapons... before they went lo-tech.  Think more along the lines of robots and the system responsible for the Corrupted on the Void missions.  Not scythes, throwing daggers, and bows.

 

Sounds right. Still, the Hate's origins are still speculative and interesting. The Great War escalated more and more, so the Hate itself could have been part of the Orokins' old arsenal before they really went high-tech, being an obscure design they had on file from centuries previous to the advent of the Empire, then they reverted back to the old ways.

 

But, the Stalker's motivation to hunt the Tenno - there is something of interest. Does he wish to punish the Betrayers out of personal loyalty to the Emperors themselves, or he might be after the Tenno to forcefully avenge the destruction of the honor of the office of Emperor? Something that lends credence to the second viewpoint that he may not have been loyal to the people who held the office themselves is this: why does he feel the need to avenge every boss killed, no matter what faction it is? Lephantis, Alad V, Sargas Ruk. What do these factions have in common? He never comes after you unless you destroy an authority figure of some planet. Perhaps this reminds him too much of The Betrayal incident?

The story still has many, many loopholes in it, so all we can do is simply speculate at best.

Edited by -SLX-J3tAc3
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3% status chance for 20% attack speed you call "balance"? Christ...

I don't even care about origins of weapons. You can farm Reaper Prime durning one session. If not you can simply buy this damned blade and have it very next day.

While Hate? Drops from sub-boss that you may not see for a month and once you see him you have to kill him first then pray for him to drop ANY blueprint, not to mention that Dread drops like 80% of the time.

You can't trade this blueprint at all and once you get it you are like "I've waited months for this weapon only to learn that my Reaper Prime is a way better weapon?"

 

I just made Reaper Prime myself and now what? Should I trash this nigh-impossible weapon to grid, forma'd thrice for a golden piece of bullcrap I spend whole 5 keys yesterday to farm?

 

TL;DR Lots of butthurt about so-called "balance",

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if we stay within the bounds of reasoning

....space ninja game.

Also, for the rubidium/steel/composite plastic thing......space ninja game. I want none of that real science here mister. 

 

Right, but I'm considering who the Hate drops from and how hard it is for many folks to get to be reflected in its stats. Should it be a little overpowered (if that term would apply here)? I think so since it's the Stalker's weapon and due to its difficulty to acquire by many people (unless I've just been struck with the Charlie Brown syndrome for the whole time I've been on WF). I haven't heard that many people talking about how easy it is to get the Hate, but I may be missing something.

Perhaps the Hate can have 15/15 proc and crit. Its damage can remain the same or be slightly increased to 70 or stay the same, while its speed reduced to 0.8. Looking at its design, I would increase its puncture rate, though, and leave slash as it is.

However, as I said before, I propose those stats to reflect who it comes from owner and its drop rate, but that's just a sidenote from the main discussion.

The hate a not really that hard to get, if you hunt it down. It's just a little tedious. But while it does rely on RNG, so does getting the Reaper Prime, course you can trade for that. but you can also buy the hate (800..... kinda a lot). I agree a weapon's acquisition requirements and strength should be related, but the hate isn't all that hard to get.

I think if you make it the most powerful scythe, couple with how it is pure RNG to get, with a low drop chance meaning it can and will screw people over, that isn't a good idea.  At best, a side-grade.  Different stats/look, but equal power level.

Probably the best option. 

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