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Foxfx's Suggestion For Melee 2.0 Revision


FoxFX
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This is all based on what I have experienced and what I feel could be possible. I've already posted this on the Melee 2.0 feedback, but I feel like I need some more opinions on what I have suggested:

Problems Experienced and Shared from Others

1> Some players feel that combos with the "hold E" and "directional E" stuff can be a bit of a hassle

2> Blocking certain enemies (like Tenno Specters and Stalker) is highly ineffective against them when you want to stun them for a Finisher and to launch a combo attack

3> Lots of players feel Channeling should be more of an on/off option

4> Sometimes blocking ranged attacks/bullets with melee is still a bit unfavorable

5> Finishers should be more rewarding

6> Channeling is a bit costly since each hit you loose your Energy under Channeling Mode

Now here comes the part where I feel Melee 2.0 should really be all about:

Stances

1> All stances should have 2 different combos: Normal Combo and Channel Combo

2> Normal Combo is usually the very first combo you see in all Stance Mods

3> Channeling Combo occurs when under the Channeling State and only under Channeling Stats

4> Stance Mods while having 2 different Combos should have a special property when doing Channeling Combo

5> Remove the "Holding E", "Pause E", and "Directional E" commands for all Melee Combos

6> These suggestions would remove any complexity of doing combos with very fast weapons and it gives players the chance to add speed mods to the slower weapons like Galatine that they feel got heavily nerfed

Examples for Dual Sword Stance Mods:

[swirling Tiger]
(Normal Combo) Raking Flesh: EEEE
(Channeling Combo) Winding Claws: EEEEEE
(Effect) Channeling Combo spins your twin swords around sweeping any enemy in the path

[Crossing Snakes I]
(Normal Combo) East to West: EEEE
(Channeling Combo) Northern Coil: EEEEE
(Effect) Channeling Combo at the end releases a radial blast in front of you

[Crossing Snakes II]
(Normal Combo) East to West: EEEE
(Channeling Combo) Lacerating Leap: EEEEE
(Effect) Channeling Combo at the end knocks down enemy allowing for a quick Ground Finisher

 

Examples from Pole Stances:

 

[bleeding Willow]
(Normal Combo) Lethal Gust: EEEE
(Channeling Combo) Drifting Steel: EEEEE
(Effect) Channeling Combo at the end gives Slash status

 

[shimmering Blight]
(Normal Combo) Slashing Wing: EEEE
(Channeling Combo) Howling Gale: EEEE
(Effect) Channeling Combo at the end gives Puncture Status

Channeling

1>Channeling should be a duration ability (ex. Activating Channeling cost 10 Energy to remain in Channeling Mode for 10 seconds) this eliminates any inefficiency on using Channeling at the wrong time in risky situations

2> While in Channeling Mode, each melee attack will not cost you energy for each hit under Channeling Mode.

Blocking and Parrying

1> Parrying should also be a duration ability where after you press the block button (the right-click mouse button), there is a duration where the Parrying effect occurs.

(For instance, the Parrying effect works at the moment I block, but only lasts 1 second after using the Block button. A Grineer is attacking me with an axe and I am holding the Block button for around 3 seconds after his axe connects. As a result, the Parrying effect is not there at the moment the axe connects, and the Grineer is not stunned. But if it connects its axe within 1/2 a second after I push the Block button, the Parrying effect occurs and the Grineer will be stunned.)

2> Every melee weapon should have an inert Reflection Stat which states how much damage is reflected form the enemy bullets.

 

3> To not cause confusion, blocking/parrying will still require Stamina cost to balance things out

4> These suggestions should give a better edge when using the blocking function especially against ranged attacks

Finisher Attacks

1> Killing an enemy with a Stealth Attack should grant more affinity, larger quantity of drops (like ammo), and an increased chance of dropping rarer drops. (This effect increases slightly further during Channeling Mode)

2> Finisher Damage should be shown in the Melee Stats

3> This could give players a reason to use Finishers more often and should diversify more if they want to mod their melees for Finisher Attacks instead of pure Damage builds

Mods

1> Warframe Mod Reflection should be a melee mod (arguable)

2> There should be a mod that gives reflected bullets form blocking an increase chance to stun a shooting enemy with a reflected bullet. (could possibly be done when under Channeling Mode only)

3> If Channeling Mode were to be a duration ability, there should be Warframe Mods that should Increase the duration of Channeling Mode

 

4> With the suggestion of the Parrying effect, there should be a Warframe Mod that increases the duration of the parrying effect as soon as the block button is hit (for a relatively small increase).

Downside

With the suggestion of the change with Stance Mods, there is a high possibility there will be more Stance Mods which would require more grinding and farming for those Stance Mods. One possible solution would be to make some stance Mods obtainable during Dark Sector Conflict Missions.

 

There is also a debate on how long Channeling Mode will last if it became a duration system and how much Energy it would cost to initially set the duration. Some consideration for new Warframe Mod(s) that increase this duration will also need to be discussed.

 

If melee weapons have their own innate reflection stat, there has to be some thought as to how much % of damage it can reflect and if the Reflection Melee mod were possible, it should be multiplicative to the base reflection stat:

 

(Base Reflection %)*(1+ Additional Reflection Stat from Reflection Melee Mod) = New amount of damage Reflected.

Ex. Dakra Prime's Reflection stat is 20%. With adding a max Reflection mod (+96% reflection)=39.2% damage reflected. And there also needs to be  some thought on how long the Parrying Duration is as soon as you hit the block button.

Edited by FoxFX
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this is all nonsence. You are pretty much saying to remove melee 2.0 from the game.

 

I use blocking all the time, its very effective against everything, I can solo pretty much anything with just my Nikana and a stamina build, Even fighting against the specters it works. except for fighting against a Trinity specter that casts link, then you screw yourself but that just means you actualy have to think and make good tactical choices.

 

And with Combos. have you ever played games like DMC, God of War, Dantes Inferno, ect... It literaly just takes getting used to, and memorizing the the specific combo you want to use on a regular basis. the new system has only been out for about a week. and you expect to master it right on the spot? now I will give you the Hold E combos are a bit hard to get down, but over time people will learn them better. combos are really ment to be used on, Bosses, Heavy enemies and large groups of enemies with a multi hit combos.

 

and channeling. its perfectly fine. channeling only takes 5 energy per successful hit, and there is even a mod(reflex coil) that reduces the cost. It makes you do 50% more damage thats a very fair trade off. It just means you need to pay attention to when and how long you hold the left mouse button. I would rather be in control of when and how much energy I use rather then doing a mad dash to kill an enemy before my channeling runs out.

 

almost all of what you are complaining about, just requires the player to learn, pay attention, and think things out. FYI thats called learning how to play the game and being smart about it. It take time to learn how to do things correctly.  

 

You are pretty much telling them to remove the challenge from the game, that actualy makes you have to think. Instead you want everything in the game to be a cake walk. I hope that NEVER happens.

Edited by Senketsu_
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I agree with most of your ideas, especially about the "Holding E, Directional E" combo placement.

 

Here are some of my ideas I would like to see added:

 

1) Heavy and Light Combos

With the removal of Charged Attacks, several weapons, most notably the Jat Kittag, lost their uniqueness (to be honest, only the Jat Kittag for the most part). Heavy Combos and Light Combos could add much more combos and meaning to Melee. Chaining them together would also be amazing.

 

The current combo system is just horrid. Remove Pauses, Directionality, and Holding the melee buttons, these slow down melee.

 

2) Remove the necessity to channel while blocking to stun enemies

Just like in your suggestion, timing a block at just the right time (with a leeway of 1 second), will display a special effect and will stagger/stun your attackers. For regular mooks, it could stun them, but for bosses such as the G3 and Stalker, it would simply stagger them or push them backwards. "Perfect" blocking, as I call it, would use up no stamina, and allows for a speed boost for a faster reaction time.

 

This melee speed boost would only last for 5 seconds at the most, long enough to get a few hits in while the opponent is stunned/staggered.

 

 

P.S. Also, I'd like to give you props for the on/off channeling suggestion. I really bothers me holding down a single button when I'm using it for a really long time in combination with 3 other buttons or keys.

Edited by DarknightK
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just like DE every combo revolves around E, not sure if doing stuff like E+mouse1 or E+mouse2 is better, but melee 2.0 and your suggestion still feel poor.

 

But im only speaking of how to produce combos, cause everything else I like how melee 2.0 was made.

Edited by 7grims
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this is all nonsence. You are pretty much saying to remove melee 2.0 from the game.

 

I use blocking all the time, its very effective against everything, I can solo pretty much anything with just my Nikana and a stamina build, Even fighting against the specters it works. except for fighting against a Trinity specter that casts link, then you screw yourself but that just means you actualy have to think and make good tactical choices.

 

And with Combos. have you ever played games like DMC, God of War, Dantes Inferno, ect... It literaly just takes getting used to, and memorizing the the specific combo you want to use on a regular basis. the new system has only been out for about a week. and you expect to master it right on the spot? now I will give you the Hold E combos are a bit hard to get down, but over time people will learn them better. combos are really ment to be used on, Bosses, Heavy enemies and large groups of enemies with a multi hit combos.

 

and channeling. its perfectly fine. channeling only takes 5 energy per successful hit, and there is even a mod(reflex coil) that reduces the cost. It makes you do 50% more damage thats a very fair trade off. It just means you need to pay attention to when and how long you hold the left mouse button. I would rather be in control of when and how much energy I use rather then doing a mad dash to kill an enemy before my channeling runs out.

 

almost all of what you are complaining about, just requires the player to learn, pay attention, and think things out. FYI thats called learning how to play the game and being smart about it. It take time to learn how to do things correctly.  

 

You are pretty much telling them to remove the challenge from the game, that actualy makes you have to think. Instead you want everything in the game to be a cake walk. I hope that NEVER happens.

 

I can understand your concern about what I suggested, but allow me to explain a few things. First and foremost I think we all should know that while yes there is currently a combo system that would take a small amount of time to learn how to do them, however this is not a fighting game; this is a MMO. Ever game should take some time to learn, but sometimes trying to learn too much about the controls in a game can be a bit unnecessary and time consuming.

 

Also, the suggestions about the Channeling and Combos I've made tackled another issue: Players that play Warframe with game controllers. I'm not sure if there is still some concerns about it, but I did hear there has been complications with playing combos with the game controllers.

 

You are correct that in the current state, going full melee is possible even against enemies like Tenon Specters, but even blocking has its limits. Of course that mostly depends on the frame you are using and the situation you are in, we cannot forget that we can only use blocking when we are in front of an enemy, and there is also the issue of stamina loss during blocking which is more prevalent as you face higher level enemies.

 

The reason I suggested making Channeling a duration ability was that I personally talked to players about how sometimes it can be a hassle if they continue holding down the Channeling button and in the process wasting all their Energy in which they could've spared some to use their frame's ability against trickier situations. Also, this Channeling Duration suggestion makes it a bit more convenient to use certain max ranked mods like Life Strike to use. It was only my thought that changing Channeling to a duration ability would make it easier to conserve energy.

 

I'm not suggesting on removing channeling from the game, I'm merely suggesting that we change the Channeling system to a more energy conservative and a more reliable way by making it a duration system (not a duration Mod ability).

 

The challenge will always be determined by the player him/herself about where he/she wants to go in the game and to what difficulty. I'm merely suggesting to change a time consuming melee system into a more reliable system to understand and master.

Edited by FoxFX
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I can understand your concern about what I suggested, but allow me to explain a few things. First and foremost I think we all should know that while yes there is currently a combo system that would take a small amount of time to learn how to do them, however this is not a fighting game; this is a MMO. Ever game should take some time to learn, but sometimes trying to learn too much about the controls in a game can be a bit unnecessary and time consuming.

 

Also, the suggestions about the Channeling and Combos I've made tackled another issue: Players that play Warframe with game controllers. I'm not sure if there is still some concerns about it, but I did hear there has been complications with playing combos with the game controllers.

 

You are correct that in the current state, going full melee is possible even against enemies like Tenon Specters, but even blocking has its limits. Of course that mostly depends on the frame you are using and the situation you are in, we cannot forget that we can only use blocking when we are in front of an enemy, and there is also the issue of stamina loss during blocking which is more prevalent as you face higher level enemies.

 

The reason I suggested making Channeling a duration ability was that I personally talked to players about how sometimes it can be a hassle if they continue holding down the Channeling button and in the process wasting all their Energy in which they could've spared some to use their frame's ability against trickier situations. Also, this Channeling Duration suggestion makes it a bit more convenient to use certain max ranked mods like Life Strike to use. It was only my thought that changing Channeling to a duration ability would make it easier to conserve energy.

 

I'm not suggesting on removing channeling from the game, I'm merely suggesting that we change the Channeling system to a more energy conservative and a more reliable way by making it a duration system (not a duration Mod ability).

 

The challenge will always be determined by the player him/herself about where he/she wants to go in the game and to what difficulty. I' merely making a time consuming melee system a more reliable system to understand and master.

Melee 2.0 is ment for the hardcore players, a casual player can still use melee, but the way you are saying it seems to be from the perspective of a casual player that is overwhelmed with all the new stuff. DE has even stated this, that the combos are ment for the hardcore players to be able to deal more damage. the combos are there for the players that want to learn them and use them on a regular basis. and while im at it. the new melee system is VERY much like the game I listed, which is what DE said they wanted to move melee closer to that style, now they did say they werent going to make it as extreme as the other games I listed. Yes the cambo system is perfectly fine and has a target group of players, so if you want to use the combos you need to put forth the effort to learn them

 

Now on to your blocking statment. I can say from personal experience blocking is perfect, your thing about blocking is that you cant cover all sides. That is a player level problem not a game level problem, You need the be the one that keeps yourself from getting surounded. now could there be a mod that makes it so you can block 360 degree? sure why not. But if you think blocking isnt working for you then you need to rethink you warframe build and you play style. On to stamina, again there are mods that not only give you ALOT of stamina, but also mods that allow you to regain stamina at a god like rate, so you thing about stamina consumption again is purely poor choices on the player level not, the a problem on the game level.The player is the one that is given the tool, its not the game or devs fault that they dont use them. "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink."

 

Now to you channeling statement. Is it really that hard to hold down a button that requires no pressure to hold? waisting energy? that is a player problem as well. all you need to do is activate is when you want to deal extra damage. its called a trade off, you have the choice to either use your energy on extra melee damage or to use it on a ability. The player should be aware of the amout of energy they are useing, and also the fact that they have it activated. its not the systems fault that the player hasnt learned how to pay attantion to their mouse hand, and energy. And again there are mods that help both with energy regain and channeling cost/damage. so again the player is given the tool, its their choice not to use it, its not the game/systems fault that the player dosnt use the tool given. there is even tutorials in the codex on the new melee system.

 

Its not the system thats flawed, the players are the ones who havent gotten used to it yet, and are complaining for nothing.

 

And again the Combo system, DE has stated, is ment for the more hardcore players. the Blocking and Channeling system just requires the players to be smart, think, and use the tools given to them and there would be no problem.

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Melee 2.0 is ment for the hardcore players, a casual player can still use melee, but the way you are saying it seems to be from the perspective of a casual player that is overwhelmed with all the new stuff. DE has even stated this, that the combos are ment for the hardcore players to be able to deal more damage. the combos are there for the players that want to learn them and use them on a regular basis. and while im at it. the new melee system is VERY much like the game I listed, which is what DE said they wanted to move melee closer to that style, now they did say they werent going to make it as extreme as the other games I listed. Yes the cambo system is perfectly fine and has a target group of players, so if you want to use the combos you need to put forth the effort to learn them

 

Now on to your blocking statment. I can say from personal experience blocking is perfect, your thing about blocking is that you cant cover all sides. That is a player level problem not a game level problem, You need the be the one that keeps yourself from getting surounded. now could there be a mod that makes it so you can block 360 degree? sure why not. But if you think blocking isnt working for you then you need to rethink you warframe build and you play style. On to stamina, again there are mods that not only give you ALOT of stamina, but also mods that allow you to regain stamina at a god like rate, so you thing about stamina consumption again is purely poor choices on the player level not, the a problem on the game level.The player is the one that is given the tool, its not the game or devs fault that they dont use them. "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink."

 

Now to you channeling statement. Is it really that hard to hold down a button that requires no pressure to hold? waisting energy? that is a player problem as well. all you need to do is activate is when you want to deal extra damage. its called a trade off, you have the choice to either use your energy on extra melee damage or to use it on a ability. The player should be aware of the amout of energy they are useing, and also the fact that they have it activated. its not the systems fault that the player hasnt learned how to pay attantion to their mouse hand, and energy. And again there are mods that help both with energy regain and channeling cost/damage. so again the player is given the tool, its their choice not to use it, its not the game/systems fault that the player dosnt use the tool given. there is even tutorials in the codex on the new melee system.

 

Its not the system thats flawed, the players are the ones who havent gotten used to it yet, and are complaining for nothing.

 

And again the Combo system, DE has stated, is ment for the more hardcore players. the Blocking and Channeling system just requires the players to be smart, think, and use the tools given to them and there would be no problem.

 

I do not encourage 360 blocking, that is not what I stated. I did say that the difficult of the game is determined by how the player chooses to play it especially if they want to go melee only and be more hardcore about it, but I also did say that sometimes some things can be a bit excessive. If you have read @DarknightK's post, he even agrees that holding down the Channeling button can be a bit troublesome at times.

 

There will always be new players entering and many of them would not mind trying out going melee only either. However if mastering the combos as it is becomes a bit too much for them, then that does feel kinda discouraging.

 

What I have suggested should still conserve that hardcore aspect DE is gearing for. I'm not complaining about how the controls for melee is too difficult nor am I blaming on the system itself; I am merely giving my two cents on how it can be reliable for hardcore and even casual players.

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There is also another option for those that find doing combos with the holding/pausing/and directional thing a bit tiring.

 

I call this idea: Combo Switching

 

Combos Switching

 

Note: Allows players to switch to whichever combo line they want to use by pressing the "R" button while in melee mode.

 

Example:

 

Crimson Dervish has 3 different combos: 1st combo Crimson Orbit, 2nd combo Twisting Flurry, and 3rd combo Coiling Impale. Initially if you choose to use this Combo Switching system, your combo will initially be set to the 1st combo Crimson orbit. With this, just tap the "E" button to use that combo. By pressing "R" while in Melee Mode, your new set combo will be the 2nd one. Pressing the "E" multiple times will cause the Twisting Furry combo to be used instead.

 

At least with this, it eliminates the use of needing extra keys to initiate combos and makes things a bit easier.

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There is also another option for those that find doing combos with the holding/pausing/and directional thing a bit tiring.

 

I call this idea: Combo Switching

 

Combos Switching

 

Note: Allows players to switch to whichever combo line they want to use by pressing the "R" button while in melee mode.

 

Example:

 

Crimson Dervish has 3 different combos: 1st combo Crimson Orbit, 2nd combo Twisting Flurry, and 3rd combo Coiling Impale. Initially if you choose to use this Combo Switching system, your combo will initially be set to the 1st combo Crimson orbit. With this, just tap the "E" button to use that combo. By pressing "R" while in Melee Mode, your new set combo will be the 2nd one. Pressing the "E" multiple times will cause the Twisting Furry combo to be used instead.

 

At least with this, it eliminates the use of needing extra keys to initiate combos and makes things a bit easier.

 

Eh, however it does eliminate the "skill" aspect of the game by simply spamming E whenever you want to initiate a combo.

I would advocate a "Light Attack" and "Heavy Attack" button (Left and Right mouse buttons, respectively), with Block being the middle mouse button or what have you and E being to switch on/off channeling.

 

I guess I'm still bummed that DE took away Heavy attacks. I heard they would've been revamped with Melee 2.0, but I guess DE decided to just do away with OP Galatine charge attacks, as well as all the other ones.

 

Can't say I hate it, but it does take away some diversity from the combo pools.

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Eh, however it does eliminate the "skill" aspect of the game by simply spamming E whenever you want to initiate a combo.

I would advocate a "Light Attack" and "Heavy Attack" button (Left and Right mouse buttons, respectively), with Block being the middle mouse button or what have you and E being to switch on/off channeling.

 

I guess I'm still bummed that DE took away Heavy attacks. I heard they would've been revamped with Melee 2.0, but I guess DE decided to just do away with OP Galatine charge attacks, as well as all the other ones.

 

Can't say I hate it, but it does take away some diversity from the combo pools.

 

Well we can ommit the combo suggestion. I'm already getting heckled and chewed out for making such a comment  (and ingame some dude that read this called me a a---ole). So I'll let the combo suggestion be all null and void.

 

Rethinking about it and I believe Reflection should stay as a Warframe Mod. But I still also think that every melee weapon should have some innate reflection stat to them. I also believe that there should be some Mod that grants an additional chance to stun enemies with reflected bullets at a minimal chance, but I'm debating on how often that should happen.

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Well for the things I agree with: 

The blocking or more accurately the parrying, is quite a clunky and useless mechanism. Sure you get your one fancy combo move, and that one guy will probably die, but it's absolutely useless in most situations. It should probably be made more streamline such that you only have to block at the precise moment (as opposed to block and channel). Timing should still be important as it should require a level of skill. Counter to one of your statements before though this is an MMO this is also a fighting game. It's what make warframe unique, if you take away all the aspect that require skill (in the fighting sense) I may as well just go play a point and click game. Countering should also open up some much more impressive options like even another combo or at least something which damages multiple targets.

Your idea for innate blocking might be a feasible idea but not just a percentage of incoming damage, even with 97% damage reflection I've never once done a noticeable amount of reflection and cutting it down further would make it just useless. On another note blocking itself is quite a useful feature and allows for survivability provided you place yourself properly. Personally I've been able to survive high wave survivals (aka 30min+) with only vigor and auto parry with nekros (and nekros is made of paper practically). Of course stamina mods are required for constant blocking. 

As for channeling the idea of a button press is quite a reasonable feature with it allowing for added damage particularly on high damage end of combo moves which functions just how the devs wanted it. By making it a button press feature it adds further level of engagement into the game although perhaps a timed channeling feature could be added on top of that. But removing it from the game and adding a timed feature is really just making it easier in terms of your convenience which is ultimately - boring.

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Well for the things I agree with: 

The blocking or more accurately the parrying, is quite a clunky and useless mechanism. Sure you get your one fancy combo move, and that one guy will probably die, but it's absolutely useless in most situations. It should probably be made more streamline such that you only have to block at the precise moment (as opposed to block and channel). Timing should still be important as it should require a level of skill. Counter to one of your statements before though this is an MMO this is also a fighting game. It's what make warframe unique, if you take away all the aspect that require skill (in the fighting sense) I may as well just go play a point and click game. Countering should also open up some much more impressive options like even another combo or at least something which damages multiple targets.

Your idea for innate blocking might be a feasible idea but not just a percentage of incoming damage, even with 97% damage reflection I've never once done a noticeable amount of reflection and cutting it down further would make it just useless. On another note blocking itself is quite a useful feature and allows for survivability provided you place yourself properly. Personally I've been able to survive high wave survivals (aka 30min+) with only vigor and auto parry with nekros (and nekros is made of paper practically). Of course stamina mods are required for constant blocking. 

As for channeling the idea of a button press is quite a reasonable feature with it allowing for added damage particularly on high damage end of combo moves which functions just how the devs wanted it. By making it a button press feature it adds further level of engagement into the game although perhaps a timed channeling feature could be added on top of that. But removing it from the game and adding a timed feature is really just making it easier in terms of your convenience which is ultimately - boring.

 

So I take it you agree about the parrying idea I made up?

 

And I guess the whole Channeling Duration may seem a bit too easy, but I just thought it up as a better alternative to what everyone has been asking for Channeling to be a on/off thing.

 

The only thing I find issue about blocking is that you can't use the Parry Melee Mod against Tenno Factions (it does not stun the Tenno Specters or Stalker; I have tried it myself to no avail). So for that I thought up that parrying thing I suggested.

 

The reflecting bullet thing you mentioned does sound feasible, but I do recognize that the true strength of melee is close counter and not at the far distance. That is also why I suggested that there could either be a Mod or a Melee weapon stat that determines the chance that a reflected projectile can stun an enemy for a Finisher Attack.

 

Other than that, what do you think of my idea on the Finisher Attack?

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