Ember- Lack Of Kit Cohesiveness, Or: Why Overheat Was Necessary

[ZyloWolfzan]

It's been argued back and forth for ages now of course, but everyone knows that something is a bit off with Ember. The problem that everyone has, and argues over, is what, exactly, that is. I believe I understand it. You see, Ember started out, and has always seemed (To me at least) to be, this sort of rushdown bruiser mage, who charges into the midst of enemies, and uses her high AoE damage abilities to tear apart mobs quickly. Back when she had Overheat, this worked a bit TOO will, because, while her damage was mediocre against everything except Infested, she was practically invincible with Overheat, 90+% Damage Reduction? Yeah, that's kind of insane, and it DID need to be changed at least. She was being played more like an invincible tank than the rough mid-battle AoE damage bruiser she was supposed to be. However, complete removal of Overheat was not the right choice. However, in taking two steps back, they did at least take a step forward, Accelerant was a good addition, making her a bigger threat against higher level enemies, and allowing her damage to at least be more effective against non-Infested enemies, making her a significant damage threat, able to compete with other mages, but in exchange she completely lost all of her defensive ability. Sure, Accelerant has a stun, but the stun isn't exactly very long, and with how expensive Accelerant is energy wise, you can't exactly spam it constantly to perma-stun enemies to defend yourself, doing that won't let you put out any damage. Which is why her kit lacks so much cohesiveness right now. With her absolutely terrible defensive stats, and Overheat removed, her usual strategy of charge into mobs and use high AoE abilities to deal heavy sustained damage doesn't work very will, because she's so easy to kill for basically any decently leveled enemy in the game. That was what made Overheat a necessity for her, it allowed her to survive better in combat, by not being instantly killed by a Heavy Gunner, or Corpus Tech or what have you.

 

And so we come to my main point, which is that Overheat's old effect should be added to World on Fire, and then make it so the damage reduction does NOT scale off of Power Strength. There's precedent for this as well, such as when Rhino's previous third power was just wrapped into his ult, and Rhino Roar replaced it. Doing this would solve a lot of Ember's current issues. It would make many players who enjoyed the bruiser style rushdown mage that Ember played as before, able to still enjoy that, and keeping the damage reduction from scaling off of Power Strength, the damage reduction is capped at 70%(I believe that was the old Damage Reduction, correct me if I'm wrong), and would make it harder to spam the ability AS mercilessly, since it would have the lower duration that World on Fire has, along with the much higher energy cost of her Ultimate. Doing this would make World on Fire a far more viable ability, and would go far in making Ember as a whole a far more enjoyable, reliable, frame to play with, as well as making her close-range AoE kit make far more sense, and be far more cohesive as a whole.

 

signed just my thoughts, feel free to reply with your own.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Not a bad idea personally, as an Ember fan i aprove, 70% is a bit too high though dont you think? Also her fireblast should deal continous fire damage to enemies inside it, not just the initial blast or the edges

[Paradoxbomb]

Works for me, would allow Ember to actually charge in with WoL without getting brutalized, and we'd still get to keep Accelerant (which is actually a pretty dang powerful skill IMO). Plus it would make sense since Overheat essentially was just another version of WoL; it'd be kinda similar to how they put Rhino's original two AoE's together to form Rhino Stomp.

[Lactamid]

Fireblast (ring of fire thingy) could just be removed entirely imo and be replaced with some damage reduction/possible combined movement skill

[H3dsh0t]

Honestly I think Ember is in one of the best places she's been in a LONG time. She is the only frame that I have, that I keep all 4 skills on at all times! The old overheat was just plain wrong and did not fit that frame in the slightest. Now she is one of the most rounded frames there is.

[Wallace24]

I really enjoy accelerant, but I really didn't play ember back in the days when she had overheat, so I really can't compare the two playstyles. as long as accelerant isn't removed altogether, sounds good to me. I do think that if overheat's damage reduction were added to fire blast or world on fire, that would be great. might be trying to do too many things with one skill at that point, though. 

 

my ember prime is built for accelerant spam, but for those who run around with world on fire up, that really does seem to capture the spirit of ember. running through crowds of enemies bringing mayhem and fire with reckless abandon. so some damage resistance with that would be good. dunno if a lower duration time would be taken well by the ember community, though

[AdmiralAvalanche]

Fireblast (ring of fire thingy) could just be removed entirely imo and be replaced with some damage reduction/possible combined movement skill

maybe some flame blast from your hands which propels you backward whilst giving you some Dmg reduction, serving a dual purpose of propelling you to targets as well as a good "JEYSUS CHRIEST" button when things get hairy

[Lactamid]

maybe some flame blast from your hands which propels you backward whilst giving you some Dmg reduction, serving a dual purpose of propelling you to targets as well as a good "JEYSUS CHRIEST" button when things get hairy

Seems a bit too iron man XD

[ZyloWolfzan]

Not a bad idea personally, as an Ember fan i aprove, 70% is a bit too high though dont you think? Also her fireblast should deal continous fire damage to enemies inside it, not just the initial blast or the edges

I'm pretty sure that 70% was the old base Overheat damage reduction, without it being affected by Power Strength that is. I'd say 70% is about fine, considering how low Ember's defensive stats(Shields, Armor, Health) are in comparison to other frames with such low range abilities as Ember.

 

Fireblast (ring of fire thingy) could just be removed entirely imo and be replaced with some damage reduction/possible combined movement skill

 

This could work I suppose, but I feel that Fire Blast still has some uses for defending and blocking off certain areas with the flames, making an area of denial. Really they just need to make the fire blast deal damage inside the middle of the ring instead of JUST the outside.

 

Honestly I think Ember is in one of the best places she's been in a LONG time. She is the only frame that I have, that I keep all 4 skills on at all times! The old overheat was just plain wrong and did not fit that frame in the slightest. Now she is one of the most rounded frames there is.

 

I have no idea what you are thinking, other than you might not have played Ember back when she had Overheat, but your Founder's badge suggests otherwise. Ember currently has so few defensive options, she is just far to easy for enemies to simply murder before she can get enough damage out to kill off all the threats in the area, this is exceptionally easy to notice on higher level void missions, where a few bullets from a Grineer heavy will just instantly murder you. Still, everyone as their opinions, so it's good to see the different ones, I just don't see how you think she's balanced with how close range she needs to be to enemies, and how long she has to be there, compared to her massive lack of survivability.

 

signed glad to see plenty of responses here though, agreeing or disagreeing.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[The_Diabetes]

Ember's Fireball, Accelerant and World on Fire are good. Fireblast needs to be scrapped and replaced with something else. I just don't know what it could be. I doubt they will ever put Overheat back because it was stupid then and it would be stupid now. Overheat was better than Iron Skin. Your best shot is trying to find something that would be useful to Ember's kit to replace Fireblast.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

I will forever be on these threads and upvote them, even if takes 10 threads a day to make them understand their mistake, ember is a poor man's nova today, actually not even that is a fair comparison.

 

WoF scales poorly, fireblast and fireball are laughable then you have accelerant the only actual skill that scales, accelerant, too bad it substituted the skill that made all the other ones makes sense, overheat. I say, fireblast needs to go.

[ZyloWolfzan]

While replacing Fireblast is an option, I think DE has been talking about changing Fireblast for a while now, and they might have some other plans for it. No idea what they might be, but if they aren't bringing Overheat back directly, (with a few balance tweaks of course, even I admit that original Overheat was OP as balls, but that was ONLY because it could scale off of Power Strength so removing that would go a LONG way in balancing it), then they could wrap Overheat back into World on Fire to fit into her kit FAR better, and make her playstyle more defined, and enjoyable to both the old, and new Ember players.

 

signed at least that's how I feel about it.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

No, just no.

 

Overheat was poor power choice for a DoT frame. It's also an even worse idea to add the concept of Overheat into WoF, it'd push it up to stupid lvls of game breaking OP on a par with Nova's MP, Trinity blessing + Link spam, Rhino's duration based Iron skin and Frost's invulnerable duration SG spam. 

 

The only things Ember needs are

 

1)

Speed boosted to 1.15

2)

Power damage increase on Fireball, Fireblast and WoF with a corresponding decrease in the % buff of Accelerant, it's a bit on the high side and makes it necessary at lvls lower than it should be needed, because Ember's powers are on the lower base damage side, but causes massive overkill with the base 250% buff before that lvl of damage buff is actually needed. 

3)

Fireblast, knock back, or stagger in the blast radius. 100% proc chance on the ring of fire (higher lvls it won't inflict enough damage to stop enemies coming through) It's still the worst of the bunch, possibly increase the damage slightly.

4)

WoF, slight AoE increase on each explosion, 100% proc chance on direct hits, 50% on AoE hits, you've got your instant CC mixed in without daft damage reductions skills which shouldn't be anywhere near a frame like Ember. 

 

Misc.

 

Ember Prime's missing polarity slot, fix it. (I've forma'd her twice already, but it's irritating for new players) slight shield increase if they're going to buff Primes like Rhino and Excal. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

No, just no.

 

Overheat was poor power choice for a DoT frame. It's also an even worse idea to add the concept of Overheat into WoF, it'd push it up to stupid lvls of game breaking OP on a par with Nova's MP, Trinity blessing + Link spam, Rhino's duration based Iron skin and Frost's invulnerable duration SG spam. 

 

The only things Ember needs are

 

1)

Speed boosted to 1.15

2)

Power damage increase on Fireball, Fireblast and WoF with a corresponding decrease in the % buff of Accelerant, it's a bit on the high side and makes it necessary at lvls lower than it should be needed, because Ember's powers are on the lower base damage side, but causes massive overkill with the base 250% buff before that lvl of damage buff is actually needed. 

3)

Fireblast, knock back, or stagger in the blast radius. 100% proc chance on the ring of fire (higher lvls it won't inflict enough damage to stop enemies coming through) It's still the worst of the bunch, possibly increase the damage slightly.

4)

WoF, slight AoE increase on each explosion, 100% proc chance on direct hits, 50% on AoE hits, you've got your instant CC mixed in without daft damage reductions skills which shouldn't be anywhere near a frame like Ember. 

 

Misc.

 

Ember Prime's missing polarity slot, fix it. (I've forma'd her twice already, but it's irritating for new players) slight shield increase if they're going to buff Primes like Rhino and Excal. 

Where is that op? She has no defense whatsoever and no damage increase on her powers are worth losing accelerant buff, in the end of the day, no matter how reasonably strong they make wof, you will be using your fire dmg weapon + accel to kill enemies, it just sux that she is slow and has no defense at all.

[ZyloWolfzan]

No, just no.

 

Overheat was poor power choice for a DoT frame. It's also an even worse idea to add the concept of Overheat into WoF, it'd push it up to stupid lvls of game breaking OP on a par with Nova's MP, Trinity blessing + Link spam, Rhino's duration based Iron skin and Frost's invulnerable duration SG spam. 

 

To quote you. No, just no. This change to World on Fire would in NO way at ALL compare to Nova's MP, Trinity Blessing/Link spam, or Rhino Iron Skin. World on Fire would ONLY provide 70% damage reduction, on a frame with no sustain for her health.shields, along with mediocre/low Health/Shields, practically no armor, and she would still be vulnerable to knockdowns, and Disruption, not to mention how short World on Fire's duration (10 Seconds maxed), against Link (12 seconds maxes), or Iron Skin(Unlimited duration), and it simply can't compare to the invincibility of Blessing AT ALL, with Blessing having the same duration(10 seconds) while providing a full health, and shield heal as well as COMPLETE invincibility. Also, Overheat is the PERFECT power for a DoT frame. You can't get any solid DoT off if you are DEAD all the time. You NEED to survive well to be able to actually keep your DoT out, and affecting the enemies. There is no way a DoT mage can ever be a good, viable choice compared to other mages if they have no way to sustain, or defend themselves.

 

signed so I completely disagree with pretty much everything you have to say, sorry.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[RealPandemonium]

The main problem Ember has is WoF requiring too many stats to be good (pretty much all the ability modifers,) and Fire Blast being lame and outclassed by her other abilities.  Overheat is another unnecessary gameplay softener and is only desired by those who exploited it in the past.  You don't see anyone who started playing Ember after Overheat's removal suggesting she needs something like it.  

[Hired-Gun]

Make Fireblast do what Eximus Arsons do.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Where is that op? She has no defense whatsoever and no damage increase on her powers are worth losing accelerant buff, in the end of the day, no matter how reasonably strong they make wof, you will be using your fire dmg weapon + accel to kill enemies, it just sux that she is slow and has no defense at all.

 

Neither, does Nyx, Vauban, Loki, Ash, Banshee, Nekros. They have low shields and get absolutely shredded by the enemy when they run sloppy games. They have arguably better CC (Nyx, Loki and Vauban are possibly the best CC/ utility frames in the game) , but absolutely nothing in the way of DPS on the scale of Ember which can churn out 27,000 damage easily. 

 

Also did you read what I said about Accelerant and her base power lvl? Ember's base power lvls are actually on the low side, being DoT, Accelerant buffs them by 250% or more. The problem is that at a particular lvl, her powers don't do enough damage, necessitating Accelerant being used continuously, yet the buff it provides is over kill to a huge extent. Ie: WoF will seriously damage a lvl 30 Ancient, but it won't kill them outright with one blast, popping Accelerant gives 250% damage boost, which is simply overkill for lvl 30, but it works absolutely fine for lvl 40/50. 

 

All that's being changed the base power damage being increased by the corresponding amount as the accelerant buff is reduced. Do the math. It works out at the same DPS. Accelerant is simply used in higher lvl games, not spammed at lvl 30 where it's not required. 

 

eg: if WoF does 500 damage per hit, at 250% damage buff that brings it to 1,250. Changing WoF to 625 damage per hit and Accel to a 200% damage buff brings the DPS to... 1,250. It's exactly the same DPS lvl, You lose nothing. (except having to spam Accelerant at lower lvls)

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

To quote you. No, just no. This change to World on Fire would in NO way at ALL compare to Nova's MP, Trinity Blessing/Link spam, or Rhino Iron Skin. World on Fire would ONLY provide 70% damage reduction, on a frame with no sustain for her health.shields, along with mediocre/low Health/Shields, practically no armor, and she would still be vulnerable to knockdowns, and Disruption, not to mention how short World on Fire's duration (10 Seconds maxed), against Link (12 seconds maxes), or Iron Skin(Unlimited duration), and it simply can't compare to the invincibility of Blessing AT ALL, with Blessing having the same duration(10 seconds) while providing a full health, and shield heal as well as COMPLETE invincibility. Also, Overheat is the PERFECT power for a DoT frame. You can't get any solid DoT off if you are DEAD all the time. You NEED to survive well to be able to actually keep your DoT out, and affecting the enemies. There is no way a DoT mage can ever be a good, viable choice compared to other mages if they have no way to sustain, or defend themselves.

 

signed so I completely disagree with pretty much everything you have to say, sorry.

Zylo the Wolfbane

 

What's Link's DR again? 75%. Trinity also has no form of direct DPS. The blessing Link exploit is getting a nerf so we can disregard shooting yourself in the foot with an ogris as a viable strategy, you want to put damage reduction of 70% of a frame which can push out 27,000 damage in 16 seconds at an area of 15m, which can be moved? You know why Link's DR is actually okay? Because Trinity has diddly squat in the way of damage powers or damage buff powers.

 

I've already mentioned that most of the CC frames also have shields as low, or lower than Ember, they're as slow in some cases, have a lower energy pool, and as little armour. None have DR and none come close to pushing out the same massive damage that Ember can. What you are proposing is having your cake and eating it. High DoT, with a extremely high damage buff ability, with 70% DR. 

 

DR on a fragile frame is shoddy and a crutch for inabilities to compensate for Ember's drawbacks. It's the same mentality of Trinity's blessing. "but it's needed for high lvl play" no it isn't. or Nova's chain exploding MP "but it's needed for high lvl games" no it's not. What you are essentially doing is creating a frame with low shields and hp, then allowing people to face tank enemy fire with it. That is daft, and completely contrary to why the frame has low shields and hp in the first place, which is why Overheat was removed to begin with. Why do you think Loki has invisibility and why he was made so he dies if high lvl mobs just look in his direction? If he could get DR what would be the point of him only having 500 shields and 250 hp?

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

The main problem Ember has is WoF requiring too many stats to be good (pretty much all the ability modifers,) and Fire Blast being lame and outclassed by her other abilities.  Overheat is another unnecessary gameplay softener and is only desired by those who exploited it in the past.  You don't see anyone who started playing Ember after Overheat's removal suggesting she needs something like it.  

 

WoF is okay as it stands, I don't disagree about the multiple ability modifiers causing issues. But there are other ways to go. Buffing Ember's speed to 1.15/1.20 is a better way to address the range issue on WoF than just make it immune to range mods. This is the current issue with Rhino's Stomp. 8 seconds of duration is a lot, and it's completely independent of power strength, range and efficiency. I don't want to see them go down that route. 

 

WoF has larger issues with it's inability to generate proc's consistently, which is daft for a power which does that much damage but requires you to get close. Fire procs are rather a good way of implementing a bit of CC into WoF without it getting out of hand and turning into MP's 50% debuff AoE, chain exploding nightmare, yet stopping Ember getting slapped by a stubborn Ancient who got caught between the AoE blasts of WoF and didn't go down. (Similar to Volt's shock proc, great CC for a power which is direct damage, but without it becoming a CC power)

 

Yeah, Fireblast does suck. knock back or stagger would be very welcome, higher proc chance too. But honestly, I wouldn't be at all upset if they reworked it entirely into a new power. 

Edited May 1, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[fatpig84]

Accelerant needs the same base modifier as Sonar.

540% by default. Then further boosted by power strength.

 

That is all she needs.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

Neither, does Nyx, Vauban, Loki, Ash, Banshee, Nekros. They have low shields and get absolutely shredded by the enemy when they run sloppy games. They have arguably better CC (Nyx, Loki and Vauban are possibly the best CC/ utility frames in the game) , but absolutely nothing in the way of DPS on the scale of Ember which can churn out 27,000 damage easily. 

 

Also did you read what I said about Accelerant and her base power lvl? Ember's base power lvls are actually on the low side, being DoT, Accelerant buffs them by 250% or more. The problem is that at a particular lvl, her powers don't do enough damage, necessitating Accelerant being used continuously, yet the buff it provides is over kill to a huge extent. Ie: WoF will seriously damage a lvl 30 Ancient, but it won't kill them outright with one blast, popping Accelerant gives 250% damage boost, which is simply overkill for lvl 30, but it works absolutely fine for lvl 40/50. 

 

All that's being changed the base power damage being increased by the corresponding amount as the accelerant buff is reduced. Do the math. It works out at the same DPS. Accelerant is simply used in higher lvl games, not spammed at lvl 30 where it's not required. 

 

eg: if WoF does 500 damage per hit, at 250% damage buff that brings it to 1,250. Changing WoF to 625 damage per hit and Accel to a 200% damage buff brings the DPS to... 1,250. It's exactly the same DPS lvl, You lose nothing. (except having to spam Accelerant at lower lvls)

WHAAAAAAAA?

 

You are completely clueless : Nyx has absorb, people even use that to defend cryopods, the bubble is big enough to do so, or even protect teamamtes, unleashing a blast in the end that might as well kill everything.

 

Loki: Perma invisibility, radial disarm and decoy : NOTHING touches a loki.

 

Ash : Smokescreen perma invisibility, bladestorm invincibility dealing armor ignore damage

 

Vauban: Bastille and Vortex, nothing touches a vauban either.

 

Nekros: While could use some tweaks, SotD always saves my a** to take aggro out of you and even kill enemies and Terrify.

 

And you were saying no defense?

 

Now tell me, what can ember do if she finds herself in a tough situation?

 

NOTHING.

 

Plus, making a warframe that is only good against low lv enemies, better against low lv enemies is the stupidiest idea ever.

 

We are trying to find a way to make her end game viable, not make her end game even worse and better on pluto.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Are you illiterate? What did I say about those frames and direct damage powers? Did nothing of what I wrote regarding balance actually get through? None of them have serious direct damage powers, they are all utility and CC. Ember is fully capable of dealing more damage than most frames in the game with accelerant and WoF, you don't get to have DR and heavy DPS powers in one frame.

 

Much like CC frames have poor direct damage (absorb deals magnetic damage, it is way down the damage tables vs anything but the corpus, and is directly related to the damage it absorbs, which given how the aggro mechanics work diminishes when your allies start popping off powers, you don't get a shield power like absorb and nuke lvl damage in the same power) Loki has utility in spades and yet pays for it by having no armour and shields and no ability to inflict damage outside of his weapons, while AoE explosions and crossfires, proc, especially slash bleed procs will hurt him badly.

If people can't grasp the nature of balancing frames so they can't do everything at the drop of a hat then their being deliberately obtuse and stupid.

And how is addressing her lower base power damage and accelerant affecting her end game? I did the mathematics for you, do I need to draw the reasoning out in crayon? Did you fail basic arithmetic? I can't make it any clearer that the dps remains the same, accelerant's use only becomes necessary at higher lvls by increasing the base damage of her powers by the corresponding decrease in damage % off accelerants base buff.

I really can't believe I'm explaining basic maths and percentages to someone.

Edited May 1, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[RealPandemonium]

I feel it is necessary to stress that Fire Ball is Ember's best offensive skill, way stronger than WoF and much safer and more spammable.  Some numbers demonstrating Fire Ball's power can be found in this post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/219083-ember-the-revamp/?p=2540971

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

I feel it is necessary to stress that Fire Ball is Ember's best offensive skill, way stronger than WoF and much safer and more spammable.  Some numbers demonstrating Fire Ball's power can be found in this post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/219083-ember-the-revamp/?p=2540971

 

While I agree, Fireball is one of the best first powers in the game, along with Shock and Mind Control. Have you ever tried landing a headshot using a ps4 controller's swipe pad? It's not the easiest thing to do, so your effective damage is actually quite a bit lower than your hypothetical max damage. Still, I find myself spamming it over WoF most of the time.