Frost Heavily Armored Means What?

[Vargras]

No problems hitting with it, just that its damage is superseded by Avalanche and its CC lasts only a short duration and can't be boosted by duration mods.  There are few situations where Ice Wave is worth using besides for coolness factor.  You guys probably play Frost more than I do so I would welcome your insight regarding when Ice Wave is genuinely worth using over his other skills. 

Bottlenecks. Lots of them in many of the defense/mobile defense maps. Wait for a bunch of them to get grouped up, cast Ice Wave, and watch the frosty explosions as mobs get slowed or die.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Except you also mentioned that he was "too squishy", despite being tied with Rhino for second-highest armor, in addition to having high shields.

well, I should have expounded and meant relatively then. Not necessarly too squishy, but maybe reworded it to say needs a distinctive improvement in shield base and armor base to allow him to minor/moderately CC the battlefield. He can do pretty good as I did state with great weapon loadouts, but limits your ability to really do anything with your abilities. Ice is CC...fire is Damage CC...ice should at least have moderately effective CC affects.

 

Boosting the base values on frost would allow this to happen. the 1st ability would be progressive and skill based as is ice wave (sort of a tactical move). Just give him the ability to be able to slow his enemies not based on damage received, barring the situations mentioned with using his 1st in this post. 

 

Allowing progressive tactical skill based CC warframe capabilities. This is the battlemage type I am speaking of.

[Vargras]

well, I should have expounded and meant relatively then. Not necessarly too squishy, but maybe reworded it to say needs a distinctive improvement in shield base and armor base to allow him to minor/moderately CC the battlefield.

Stop. Just stop.

 

Since when were high armor and shields directly related to the ability to use CC in combat? Yes, Snow Globe scales with armor now, but there's a grand total of nothing that Frost does that involves shield values. He's already got high shields as it is.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Frost is still the second heaviest armored warframe in the game.

well, I wouldn't say that. Rhino would be next up in that department. Rhino has everything that would make him the better warframe. Rhino is chosen over frost usually. 

 

Rhino: is mobile has major CC abilities and boosts allies/ along with protecting them from enemy fire. He does the job much better than a frost could ability wise. This isn't using weapons. His abilities link so well together it creates a better warframe than frost.

 

Although I can make my frost equal in effectiveness, but I am relying solely on my weapons at that point.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Stop. Just stop.

 

Since when were high armor and shields directly related to the ability to use CC in combat? Yes, Snow Globe scales with armor now, but there's a grand total of nothing that Frost does that involves shield values. He's already got high shields as it is.

lol, ok...it seems that we are trying to link ability and shields together.

 

It is about frost's abilities working together to create..moderate CC. That means Frost has to step outside of his globe to do so. There isn't a infinite amount of energy on the ground at all times. There are good energy drops at the rate it drops, but Rhino's abilites work in complete Synergy with each other. So does Zephyr's abilities work in complete synergy with each other. Frost's abilities dont do that. That is a problem, so to mitigate that. The alternative is to boost the base shield value of frost so that he can gradually CC the battlefield. Again, it would take skill.

[Vargras]

lol, ok...it seems that we are trying to link ability and shields together.

 

It is about frost's abilities working together to create..moderate CC. That means Frost has to step outside of his globe to do so. There isn't a infinite amount of energy on the ground at all times. There are good energy drops at the rate it drops, but Rhino's abilites work in complete Synergy with each other. So does Zephyr's abilities work in complete synergy with each other. Frost's abilities dont do that. That is a problem, so to mitigate that. The alternative is to boost the base shield value of frost so that he can gradually CC the battlefield. Again, it would take skill.

He doesn't need more shields. Assuming you are perfectly capable of dodging, sprinting, sliding, and jumping, you're going to be taking very little damage outside of Snow Globe. If you are, I'm sorry, but you're playing poorly and it's no one's fault but your own.

 

So, to quote you directly:

Again, it would take skill.

This is why he doesn't need more shields.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

He doesn't need more shields. Assuming you are perfectly capable of dodging, sprinting, sliding, and jumping, you're going to be taking very little damage outside of Snow Globe. If you are, I'm sorry, but you're playing poorly and it's no one's fault but your own.

 

So, to quote you directly:

 

 

This is why he doesn't need more shields.

so you want to say it is my fault for not dodging damage?

 

your mistaken on that part you can't mitigate damage only so much by the sheer mobs that show up on missions...and the spawns are right behind you. Don't throw it off on saying it is bad skill.

 

http://youtu.be/T45OVw9wFtU

 

Enemies spawn at least 50m out from your location behind cover or whatever. You still take damage through the snowglobe still, duration is a factor along with armor, from explosive damage. Once you get to a certain level, even if I was to equip my melee weapon and reflect damage in 180 degrees your open the other 180 degrees to being shot. Enemies spawn behind cover, and there are surprises at every turn not including knockdowns. So to prevent that use resistance for knockdowns.  Since snowglobe has a health limit and Zephyrs 3 ability doesn't have a bullet limit or health limit your watching your move. Only so much skill comes into play unless you have abilities that can CC the battlefield effectively. The number of enemies increases then how do you explain running out of stamina, regardless of what mods you equip to mitigate damage effectively. This is not including the procs you receive at higher levels (bleed, burn, posion). In the end you usually are overrun by sheer numbers and if you had some ability that could moderately affect the Crowds that would allow you progress, but frost does not have that kind of utility. (Thus why I suggested more shields and health armor and the 1st and 4th ability change.)

 

The 4th ability change gives you this result:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDLGNGsRJDw 

 

This is without a personal defense loadout. Even so, still limited. The video is pre U12. Still gives a taste of what I am proposing. Ignore the fact it is a attack loadout and and still allow those base value buffs to his warframe, wouldn't change how the abilities effectiveness plays out at this current state U13.

 

Give the ability buffs then you can do whats in the video above mitigate damage not be invulnerable. How does boosting shields by 200 and a armor buff make him invincible it doesn't. They could lower the value of the snowglobe armor buff so that it makes the balance scale.

 

So, statement on skill observed but irrelevant due to what I just posted and mentioned to you above. You Savvy? (not being mean just a saying i love using Jack Sparrow style).

Edited May 3, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Jeerome0406]

*whispers* this is a load of barnicles....

[Edgedemon]

man i could get to half the QQ but, Had you suggested they remove the freeze removal on damage i would agree with you, but your proposed changes are either unneeded or unjustified.

 

justify his slow speed then...and his non-usefulness atm to a certain degree....im sorry but Frost isn't a GUN MAGE.

 

exactly he isn't a GUN MAGE, he is not supposed to be caster and as such does not need a heavy hitter direct damage skill which would get useless with enemies above  level 30 anyway.  

 

Yea, to move that slow he does need a armor buff sorry. His snow globe isn't mobile, and that's 3 downside plus it scales with armor. So really give him better armor. Along with a 1st ability that can 1 kill a target by freezing him to a Kelvin state (again doesn't work on bosses merely freezes them 12secs.)

you HAVE to get SF already for the snow globe, which will give you globe around 2000 extra hp and will get your damage mitigation from 38% to 57% which is a lot compared to zephyr 4.76%,  you don't even need vitality on this frame. If same shields and less than half damage to health doesn't help you i cant see what could.

 

not to mention you're specifically comparing to zephyr which has the greatest mobility skill in game and will leave behind anything except perhaps a volt in constant speed buff.

 

will he get more survival chances if he can kill one enemy spending 25 energy? no he wont he would need 300+ energy to clean a single room, with your proposed damage boost he wont kill a heavy gunner/ Ancient or MOA in a single shot anyway (and he should not),  he could aim for the most dangerous ones and clean the room while they're frozen, but he can do that already.

 

Plus what else does frost have. You mean to tell me that all frost is supposed to do is cast snowglobe when in a pickle? thats basically what your saying here. Snowglobe being mobile? I am not expounding on the fact it's immobile. The problem lies is that frost becomes a stationary warframe. Bound to standing behind a snowglobe. I am sorry, but give him more armor so he can take more punishment. So, you believe that valkyr's speed and 1260 armor is not a issue?

volt shield is stationary and small and frontal only, are you telling me that volt is a stationary frame? if you cant figure out when or why could you want an area denial/360º shield/wide area slow debuff ability... sucks to be you.

 

but hey i'm a good guy so ill give you a hint, try rushing at a boss and getting "him" inside the globe

 

you cant rush fast enough? good that you have that ranged freeze then, no?

 

 

Then whats your build then? I'm curious. Snipping what I said to point out that she has a low armor value doesn't take away my point she is more effective. I can use Zephyr in the same fashion and get better results than frost which is a fact. Use a similar build on zephyr as you do frost. Then tell me which is more effective. She is..clearly.

"use a similar build" really? you use same build for such different frames? and you think that measures effectiveness? i rest my case with this one.

 

Her armor is almost never even factored in, considering how she should be berserking as much as possible.

actually no that wouldn't be fun, you should go berseker when low on health or faced against one really annoying stun lock.

 

Yea it is precision. I have no qualms about that. The problem lies with the 300 health damage release from it. No its not new, but ANY of your teammates can force the ability to seem pointless. Not your teammates fault, they are killing targets just like you. If it didn't have this restriction it would help your teammates out more.

try a Nyx teammates always kill the enemy you controlled first it shines so it attracts attention faster, exactly the same for that shiny white enemy. and if they break stun and don't kill the mob it is their fault.

[Vargras]

so you want to say it is my fault for not dodging damage?

Yes. Yes it is.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

man i could get to half the QQ but, Had you suggested they remove the freeze removal on damage i would agree with you, but your proposed changes are either unneeded or unjustified.

 

 

exactly he isn't a GUN MAGE, he is not supposed to be caster and as such does not need a heavy hitter direct damage skill which would get useless with enemies above  level 30 anyway.  

 

you HAVE to get SF already for the snow globe, which will give you globe around 2000 extra hp and will get your damage mitigation from 38% to 57% which is a lot compared to zephyr 4.76%,  you don't even need vitality on this frame. If same shields and less than half damage to health doesn't help you i cant see what could.

 

not to mention you're specifically comparing to zephyr which has the greatest mobility skill in game and will leave behind anything except perhaps a volt in constant speed buff.

 

will he get more survival chances if he can kill one enemy spending 25 energy? no he wont he would need 300+ energy to clean a single room, with your proposed damage boost he wont kill a heavy gunner/ Ancient or MOA in a single shot anyway (and he should not),  he could aim for the most dangerous ones and clean the room while they're frozen, but he can do that already.

 

volt shield is stationary and small and frontal only, are you telling me that volt is a stationary frame? if you cant figure out when or why could you want an area denial/360º shield/wide area slow debuff ability... sucks to be you.

 

but hey i'm a good guy so ill give you a hint, try rushing at a boss and getting "him" inside the globe

 

you cant rush fast enough? good that you have that ranged freeze then, no?

 

 

"use a similar build" really? you use same build for such different frames? and you think that measures effectiveness? i rest my case with this one.

 

actually no that wouldn't be fun, you should go berseker when low on health or faced against one really annoying stun lock.

 

try a Nyx teammates always kill the enemy you controlled first it shines so it attracts attention faster, exactly the same for that shiny white enemy. and if they break stun and don't kill the mob it is their fault.

No, I dont use the same loadouts with different frames dont assume that fact. I merely did a comparision of EFFECTIVENESS. No, I am not a rusher. What would make this thread easier to respond to is if you don't jump to conclusions on what play style or mods I used on such warframe. I never said use the same loadout for the same frame or imply that.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Yes. Yes it is.

Sure, you dodge every bullet you encounter then and post a video. Ill be watching. You can mitigate damage but not fully escape it. To think you can dodge all damage gives what your saying away completely, because you can dodge damage to a point. Rationally you can't dodge 20+30 enemies firing at you. Post a video and show me this with frost and ill concede on my thoughts here. I can say you can't dodge all damage, because thats the truth.

[Vargras]

Sure, you dodge every bullet you encounter then and post a video. Ill be watching. You can mitigate damage but not fully escape it. To think you can dodge all damage gives what your saying away completely, because you can dodge damage to a point. Rationally you can't dodge 20+30 enemies firing at you. Post a video and show me this with frost and ill concede on my thoughts here. I can say you can't dodge all damage, because thats the truth.

I never said to dodge every bullet. What I was getting at was that so long as you use the mechanics available to you, Frost's shield value is more than fine and you're not going to go down unless you goof something up.

 

You're twisting my words, though.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

I never said to dodge every bullet. What I was getting at was that so long as you use the mechanics available to you, Frost's shield value is more than fine and you're not going to go down unless you goof something up.

 

You're twisting my words, though.

Ok, I apologize for the twisting there. My fault. I hope you accept my apology, but truth is you can only mitigate damage and the more enemies you face the more damage you take regardless of how much you try to dodge. Thus, ice is CC is should have that affect on enemies so 1st ability should give that instead of a insta cast waste. The base value boost wouldn't even phase enemies damage. You believe a 300 shield boost would do much, shields have no mitigation against damage, and health can't avoid bleed procs so the threat is natural.

[Edgedemon]

http://youtu.be/T45OVw9wFtU

that was you?

 

you use a Power Strength build which increases damage but halves the freeze duration making the 100% slow proc on ice wave useless and reducing it from C.C. to a simple damage dealer which will not scale with your enemies, and you split from the group from the beginning, and you hopped to get far that way?

[RealPandemonium]

Bottlenecks. Lots of them in many of the defense/mobile defense maps. Wait for a bunch of them to get grouped up, cast Ice Wave, and watch the frosty explosions as mobs get slowed or die.

I can see that, but doesn't pressing 4 do more damage with one press than 2 does with 2 presses?  The slow effect also seems to last very little, only slightly longer than the brief freeze of Avalanche (useful to teammates, not so much for the caster.)  The slow effect should be hardcore, and possibly duration-tied (a generous amount so FE doesn't gimp it so hard.)

 

that was you?

 

you use a Power Strength build which increases damage but halves the freeze duration making the 100% slow proc on ice wave useless and reducing it from C.C. to a simple damage dealer which will not scale with your enemies, and you split from the group from the beginning, and you hopped to get far that way?

Ice Wave's freeze is a 100% chance Cold damage proc, not an ability effect.  It is impossible to alter its duration with duration mods.  It also may be that dealing more damage increases freeze length (I'm not sure of how the procs work, but it seems they last longer on unarmored enemies.)  If anything his power strength build is increasing the slow duration if it is even having any effect at all on it. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Ezren]

We can be technical...and go nowhere. Armor does effect health yes...but what did I state? The effectiveness of abilities and the warframe itself lacks on frosts part. This is previously stated in OP. 

 

Again, you deflect. This proves my point.

 

You adhere to incomplete comparisons to support your argument. You compare health v health and armor v armor, excluding other, inconvenient factors. But if the utility of Snowglobe for survivability is mentioned, you suddenly are extremely attached to external factors, very specific, isolated examples. Like explosive damage. 

 

Setting aside the fact that it goes through all cover, and not just snowglobe, making your point moot (not "mute"), this is an excellent example of your selective reasoning. You can pour all the twisted logic into the mix that you want, but it all goes down the same drain: You want to rationalize a buff.

 

You paint Frost as squishy, weak, ineffective, etc, but that paint is applied with the brush of clumsy gameplay, not shortcoming. Frost has excellent defenses. He has an instant-360-degree-cover ability for when his shields are down. He has focused, effective CC to disable dangerous enemies. He has fast, radial CC to create space when surrounded. He has the tools to compliment other gameplay styles. He has CC, he has damage, he has defenses, he has strong, well-rounded base stats.

 

You're handed an accurate, effective rifle, which you proceed to use to bludgeon enemies with, and then you come and complain about how ineffective it is.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

that was you?

 

you use a Power Strength build which increases damage but halves the freeze duration making the 100% slow proc on ice wave useless and reducing it from C.C. to a simple damage dealer which will not scale with your enemies, and you split from the group from the beginning, and you hopped to get far that way?

yes, that build really isn't a power build persay it was a spam CC control build...but very limited build. That was me in the video. 

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Again, you deflect. This proves my point.

 

You adhere to incomplete comparisons to support your argument. You compare health v health and armor v armor, excluding other, inconvenient factors. But if the utility of Snowglobe for survivability is mentioned, you suddenly are extremely attached to external factors, very specific, isolated examples. Like explosive damage. 

 

Setting aside the fact that it goes through all cover, and not just snowglobe, making your point moot (not "mute"), this is an excellent example of your selective reasoning. You can pour all the twisted logic into the mix that you want, but it all goes down the same drain: You want to rationalize a buff.

 

You paint Frost as squishy, weak, ineffective, etc, but that paint is applied with the brush of clumsy gameplay, not shortcoming. Frost has excellent defenses. He has an instant-360-degree-cover ability for when his shields are down. He has focused, effective CC to disable dangerous enemies. He has fast, radial CC to create space when surrounded. He has the tools to compliment other gameplay styles. He has CC, he has damage, he has defenses, he has strong, well-rounded base stats.

 

You're handed an accurate, effective rifle, which you proceed to use to bludgeon enemies with, and then you come and complain about how ineffective it is.

I already gave you ideas...on a build in the video. I wont entice your technicalities that don't apply. You still miss my point, in the beginning and even now. I even gave a video that was a CC ideal set. You still say twisted logic, but fail to realize what I have been saying throughout this whole post. Even if you see the buff as unreasonable you have yet to counter offer it with anything constructive to the OP. This has been your trend throughout this whole thread. 

 

You say incomplete but fail I merely compared Specific traits and effectiveness in combat. Still relying mostly on gun combat. I have no issues with gun combat. I would like my abilities to scale so they are useful.

 

Since, other suggestions for frost have been ignored. I made a suggestion thread which should be a pool of ideas, not throwdowns my fellow tenno.

Edited May 3, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Edgedemon]

a zephyr skill is good but, only affects herself, cant be used to create bottlenecks, actually increases chances of friends taking bullets as it redirects and not stop.

 

may i remind you this is a direct quote not an interpretation.  Ok i added the bold on your text.

 

Then whats your build then? I'm curious. Snipping what I said to point out that she has a low armor value doesn't take away my point she is more effective. I can use Zephyr in the same fashion and get better results than frost which is a fact. Use a similar build on zephyr as you do frost. Then tell me which is more effective. She is..clearly.

i regret to inform you 

 

a) effectiveness is proportional to effective use and as such reliant on effective modding.  

 

b) any power focused build is useless on endless missions.

 

c) zephyr need s power duration build too keep her armor up and travel further, that one wont help her much either

 

Sure, you dodge every bullet you encounter then and post a video. Ill be watching. You can mitigate damage but not fully escape it. To think you can dodge all damage gives what your saying away completely, because you can dodge damage to a point. Rationally you can't dodge 20+30 enemies firing at you. Post a video and show me this with frost and ill concede on my thoughts here. I can say you can't dodge all damage, because thats the truth.

you should never let them corner you to that degree anyway.

[Edgedemon]

you had both power strength mods, but its true you could had gone without fleeting expertise for even more power.

 

yes, that build really isn't a power build persay it was a spam CC control build...but very limited build. That was me in the video. 

 

C.C. doesn't necessarily means area kill but also area disable, you didn't recover enough duration for Ice Wave to be C.C. after you couldn't 1 hit kill with it.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

you had both power strength mods, but its true you could had gone without fleeting expertise for even more power.

 

 

C.C. doesn't necessarily means area kill but also area disable, you didn't recover enough duration for Ice Wave to be C.C. after you couldn't 1 hit kill with it.

 

My point wasn't to really kill targets with that build...i didn't have focus mods equipped referr back to the 1st video i didn't have that equipped. The second video I did.

 

a zephyr skill is good but, only affects herself, cant be used to create bottlenecks, actually increases chances of friends taking bullets as it redirects and not stop.

 

may i remind you this is a direct quote not an interpretation.  Ok i added the bold on your text.

 

i regret to inform you 

 

a) effectiveness is proportional to effective use and as such reliant on effective modding.  

 

b) any power focused build is useless on endless missions.

 

c) zephyr need s power duration build too keep her armor up and travel further, that one wont help her much either

 

you should never let them corner you to that degree anyway.

Your telling me as if I didn't already know that.

 

Another thing about being cornered...that will happen. It happens especially when dealing with both heavy grineer and Corrupted. I do know how to keep myself from most situations in that case, but it doesn't mean that it wont happen when spawn rates increase.

Edited May 3, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Edgedemon]

Your telling me as if I didn't already know that.

 

Another thing about being cornered...that will happen. It happens especially when dealing with both heavy grineer and Corrupted. I do know how to keep myself from most situations in that case, but it doesn't mean that it wont happen when spawn rates increase.

i'm not suggesting you don't know, only pointing out that the build in the video didn't help reflect the frost effectiveness because it was not optimal for the frame and mission type. and that it wouldn't measure zephyr either.

 

indeed you can get surrounded, most like will at some point but what "may happen" is a poor reference for overall use, and it would be the exact time a snow globe would let you regen your shields. or you could leave the shield and run enemies wont fire at it if you're not near and the slow wont let em through either.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

i'm not suggesting you don't know, only pointing out that the build in the video didn't help reflect the frost effectiveness because it was not optimal for the frame and mission type. and that it wouldn't measure zephyr either.

 

indeed you can get surrounded, most like will at some point but what "may happen" is a poor reference for overall use, and it would be the exact time a snow globe would let you regen your shields. or you could leave the shield and run enemies wont fire at it if you're not near and the slow wont let em through either.

This idea right here is exactly one of my points. Your globe can be blasted through with explosive weapons. So, shield regen under the circumstance of this would drop this out of the playing field (unless you have overextended on and are on the other side of the globe completely and even at that leaves you vulnerable to being knocked back into the blast radius of explosive attacks), and makes frost turn into relying on one ability, you can still catch fire from napalms and be knocked out of the globe by bombards. 

 

I use snowglobe both offensively and defensively as a miniture cc but even at that it is limited. So whats the likely hood that youll be mobbed very likely. Frost's worst nightmare while trying to regen shields inside a snowglobe is knockdown and stuns. Which once enemies get inside a snowglobe or a perfectly placed shield lancer that knocks you out of it. It is a wrap. You can avoid some of the knockdowns and mobs not saying all situations will end the same way either, but it is frost worst enemy inside a snowglobe. Enemies inside the snowglobe either knocking you down or damaging you. If your trying to manage your energy efficiently then your saving for your next snowglobe or avalanche depending upon the situation (enemy level included). You wouldn't be casting freeze or ice wave in the situation you described unless your looking to be knocked down/shot at till you die. Outside the globe at that point your asking to be killed unless there is a clear path to cover that no enemies reside. Even with that said, the damage you took from being aware of your situation will have taken affect by this time (depending on enemy level). This is provided you have good reaction time (or even with more than exceptional skill).

 

This about providing frost a means to get out of these situations with a ability that can support his role in providing progress. Those base values adjusted provide you more room to operate if you are in these situations. If you end up pinned in your snowglobe unable to move outside of it for fear of procs and damage (After enemy level 22 bleeds are quite often), but still taking explosive damage through it. You are finished. Now, with the snowglobe health factor into it. It is a matter of recasting it and relying on your guns to get through, which you should be able to freeze enemies break them and provide a path...not a room clearing ability but a progressive killing tank that has advantages to taking damage and using like said ability 1st ability in OP post to make a way (which requires skill). This can give frost options on moderate CC abilities.

Edited May 3, 2014 by BloodArmoredApostle

[Wolfstorm18]

Frost and Vauban are things from the past. They are extremely underpowered right now. They were nerfed to the ground and is not possible to bring them to a level-40 defense, they simply fall quick and their powers are not useful anymore. 

 

My suggestions are: turn Frost's Snow Globe back as it was before, based only on duration, and turn Vauban's Bastille back as it was before, affecting all enemies in its range. Anything else will go against balance.