Why Fleeting Expertise Needs To Be Changed

[Moderius]

With a cursory amount of consideration, you could realize that the +efficiency really benefits damage abilities, because utility abilities that scale excellently are largely dependent on duration. And currently, damage abilities do not scale well at all.

 

So the question is, are you trying to imply that damage abilities are over-powered?

[HansJurgen]

Are there any abilities that are actually worth using at their lowest rank? I can't think of any. And if that ends up being the case the downside would be far to much to justify the positive. This also becomes another heavy caliber in that its debuff can't be countered in any capacity.

 

Most abilities are already overpowered coupled with corrupted mods as it is. If anything, the game needs to stop with the ridiculous, fast level scaling in endless survival and defense, and as such, remove the justification of spamming abilities like it is out of fashion.

 

In this regard, with mobs and warframes balanced against each other as to not allow either side dominate, players won't need to find ways maximize for god mode abilities (and they would no longer be able to either).

 

As it is, FE is double plus in most cases, rather than a plus with a downside.

 

Unranked abilities in the context of a game balanced around warframes, and warframes balanced around content, should be far from worthless. I am not lobbying for gimping our characters for the sake of gimping them.

 

However, the game needs to be challenging whether you play on Venus, Pluto or orokin. That is not the case 90%. Either everything is way too easy, or way too hard. for veteran players, everything is easy across the board. Which say that the game balance is completely skewed.

 

Even so, I can think of quite a few abilities that could still benefit from costing less, despite their reduced rank. but that is not the point of the discussion. The point of the discussion is that FE is op, and finding different ways to keep it op while making it seem like a nerf ain't going to accomplish anything.

 

Furthermore, I believe you are assuming players always go for the highest level missions possible. Intermediary level missions are in fact the most often played (outside of endless survivals and defense), and do not need devastating powers, where a lot of damage goes to waste. It also artificially causes the game to be far less challenging, and it relegates the whole experience to button mashing item farming.

 

Things cannot go on as they currently are, that is no longer in doubt for me.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Most abilities are already overpowered coupled with corrupted mods as it is. If anything, the game needs to stop with the ridiculous, fast level scaling in endless survival and defense, and as such, remove the justification of spamming abilities like it is out of fashion.

 

In this regard, with mobs and warframes balanced against each other as to not allow either side dominate, players won't need to find ways maximize for god mode abilities (and they would no longer be able to either).

 

As it is, FE is double plus in most cases, rather than a plus with a downside.

 

Unranked abilities in the context of a game balanced around warframes, and warframes balanced around content, should be far from worthless. I am not lobbying for gimping our characters for the sake of gimping them.

 

However, the game needs to be challenging whether you play on Venus, Pluto or orokin. That is not the case 90%. Either everything is way too easy, or way too hard. for veteran players, everything is easy across the board. Which say that the game balance is completely skewed.

 

Even so, I can think of quite a few abilities that could still benefit from costing less, despite their reduced rank. but that is not the point of the discussion. The point of the discussion is that FE is op, and finding different ways to keep it op while making it seem like a nerf ain't going to accomplish anything.

 

Furthermore, I believe you are assuming players always go for the highest level missions possible. Intermediary level missions are in fact the most often played (outside of endless survivals and defense), and do not need devastating powers, where a lot of damage goes to waste. It also artificially causes the game to be far less challenging, and it relegates the whole experience to button mashing item farming.

 

Things cannot go on as they currently are, that is no longer in doubt for me.

 

So... the answer to my question is no? Then I'm goint o have to stick with my opinion that your proposal's negative is far too severe and would only be usable in very specific situations (so specific that I can't even think of an example).

 

There are only two examples that I can think of where both the buff and debuff (FE) are considered beneficial that being Saryn's Miasma and Nyx's Chaos. That hardly constitutes 'most'. That's only 2.6% of all abilities in this game.

[Moderius]

Okay so I see some skirting around the point but nothing that addresses it directly.

 

All other Corrupted mods gain more than they cost. Fleeting Expertise trades 10% for 10%. It is, as it currently is designed, already recognized, and penalized for its applicability to all abilities.

 

And the reasoning that there are some abilities that do not have duration holds no merit; there are abilities with no bearing on Range or Damage, too. But those corrupted mods trade stats more efficiently. So where does the rationale that Duration is somehow out-of-balance in this respect stand out?

[HansJurgen]

So... the answer to my question is no? Then I'm goint o have to stick with my opinion that your proposal's negative is far too severe and would only be usable in very specific situations (so specific that I can't even think of an example).

 

There are only two examples that I can think of where both the buff and debuff (FE) are considered beneficial that being Saryn's Miasma and Nyx's Chaos. That hardly constitutes 'most'. That's only 2.6% of all abilities in this game.

 

Your question is a trap and cannot be answered to, because it assumes very specific circumstances and ignores the context I provided.

 

As I mentioned originally, currently FE provides buffs across the board, and every other suggestion I've read here replaces one buff with another, while not addressing FE's main issue: it allows for very powerful abilities to be spammed without any negative impact that cannot be circumvented in one way or another.

 

Shaving off some of the ability rank would even the field.

 

If you want to spam your strongest, most expensive powers, the price would be them being proportionally weaker to match their much cheaper cast cost. This, in my opinion, is the only balanced and objective approach. Everything else is just a ninja buff under the guise of a nerf.

 

Otherwise, FE should be removed from the game altogether, as it was my original opinion. Streamline is already very good on its own.

 

I mean, be honest, you unintentionally admitted it yourself, you want this mod's downside (whichever that is) to also be a ninja buff:

 

 

Are there any abilities that are actually worth using at their lowest rank? I can't think of any. And if that ends up being the case the downside would be far to much to justify the positive. This also becomes another heavy caliber in that its debuff can't be countered in any capacity.

 

Abilities, in general, would be worth using because you can cast them at almost twice less energy cost than without FE. Granted less effectively. Depending on circumstance a less effective ability cast more often can prove a better option than the same ability cast less often, with a stronger effect.

 

The choice is in the hands of the player.

Edited May 12, 2014 by HansJurgen

[HansJurgen]

Okay so I see some skirting around the point but nothing that addresses it directly.

 

All other Corrupted mods gain more than they cost. Fleeting Expertise trades 10% for 10%. It is, as it currently is designed, already recognized, and penalized for its applicability to all abilities.

 

And the reasoning that there are some abilities that do not have duration holds no merit; there are abilities with no bearing on Range or Damage, too. But those corrupted mods trade stats more efficiently. So where does the rationale that Duration is somehow out-of-balance in this respect stand out?

 

It allows for very powerful abilities to be spammed. Considering their un-modded energy cost (high), it is difficult to believe DE intended it.

 

Rebecca's statements also seem to support this.

Edited May 12, 2014 by HansJurgen

[Moderius]

It allows for very powerful abilities to be spammed. Considering their un-modded energy cost (high), it is difficult to believe DE intended it.

 

Rebecca's statements also seem to support this.

 

Rebecca's statements were about Heavy Caliber, not Fleeting Expertise. Period.

 

To imply that she was saying something else is to be presenting false information. You are falsifying support for your argument.

 

Do you have anything real to support this?

[SquirmyBurrito]

Your question is a trap and cannot be answered to, because it assumes very specific circumstances and ignores the context I provided.

 

As I mentioned originally, currently FE provides buffs across the board, and every other suggestion I've read here replaces one buff with another, while not addressing FE's main issue: it allows for very powerful abilities to be spammed without any negative impact that cannot be circumvented in one way or another.

 

Shaving off some of the ability rank would even the field.

 

If you want to spam your strongest, most expensive powers, the price would be them being proportionally weaker to match their much cheaper cast cost. This, in my opinion, is the only balanced and objective approach. Everything else is just a ninja buff under the guise of a nerf.

 

Otherwise, FE should be removed from the game altogether, as it was my original opinion. Streamline is already very good on its own.

 

I mean, be honest, you unintentionally admitted it yourself, you want this mod's downside (whichever that is) to also be a ninja buff:

 

 

 

Abilities, in general, would be worth using because you can cast them at almost twice less energy cost than without FE. Granted less effectively. Depending on circumstance a less effective ability cast more often can prove a better option than the same ability cast less often, with a stronger effect.

 

The choice is in the hands of the player.

 

How was my question a trap? It was legitimate. It didn't assume anything, it just asked a simple question. What context? -3 ranks to an ability that only has three ranks puts it at rank 0. So what abilities are worth using (regardless of energy cost) at rank 0? I'm pretty sure you just realized how bad of an idea it was once I asked that question and you're now trying to dodge my question. If abilities no longer become worth using when your FE is maxed the mod's downside is too severe. 

 

No I don't, and no I didn't. What I want is a downside that is just severe enough to force player choice without forcing the choice in the completely opposite direction that it is now (currently FE is almost always an instant pick, your idea makes it an instant ignore for pretty much everything).

 

Costing a ton less to cast doesn't really matter when the ability doesn't do crap.

 

What choice? 

 

Choice one- Standard cost-works fine.

Choice two- Low cost-no longer worth using.

 

For example-

 

Ash's Shuriken (I chose this because ash is the easiest frame name to type and shuriken is the first ability on his ability tab so I'm not required to scroll down)-

 

With max Hans-FE it costs 6.25 energy, at rank 0 it does 100 damage (and only 'fires' one projectile) that means you can cast it 4 times with the energy that it would have taken without efficiency mods. Four casts = 400 damage.

 

Without max Hans-FE or any efficiency mods it costs 25 energy, at rank 3 it does 500 damage x2 (two shuriken at max rank). 

 

Hans-FE is not worth using for this ability.

 

Let's look at blade storm, surely that was just a bad example:

 

BS with Hans-FE costs 25 energy (that's four casts vs. one without efficiency), at rank 0 it does 750 damage to 7 targets. Four casts comes to 750x7=5250x4=21,000 total damage out all for only 100 energy.

 

BS without efficiency costs 100 energy, at rank 3 it does 2000 damage to 15 targets. One cast comes to 2000x15=30,000 total damage out all for 100 energy.

 

Edit: If i messed up any math please tell me. I really didn't pay much attention so it is very possible that I messed up. I can't be arsed to actually check it myself.

Edited May 12, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[SquirmyBurrito]

After taking another look at Ash's powerset it looks like the only abilities that could vaguely benefit from this change are those that are utility based. 4 casts brings rank 0 smoke screen in line with max rank SS. 4 casts brings rank 0 teleport in line with max rank teleport. 

 

Just looked at Banshee and Ember too, maybe the 0x4<one max cast only applies to pure damage abilities. I'm too lazy to look through the other frames so I'll just leave this here for consideration.

[Azamagon]

Okay so I see some skirting around the point but nothing that addresses it directly.

 

All other Corrupted mods gain more than they cost. Fleeting Expertise trades 10% for 10%. It is, as it currently is designed, already recognized, and penalized for its applicability to all abilities.

 

And the reasoning that there are some abilities that do not have duration holds no merit; there are abilities with no bearing on Range or Damage, too. But those corrupted mods trade stats more efficiently. So where does the rationale that Duration is somehow out-of-balance in this respect stand out?

 

Regarding FE and its penalty - The numbers are (kinda) lying:

 

TL;DR:

Power efficiency does not do what the numbers are telling you, but the other powermods do:

* Intensify. Increases strength by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more power for each cast, as stated.

* Continuity. Increases duration by 30% (1.3x). You get 30% more duration for each cast, as stated.

* Stretch. Increases range by 45% (1.45x). You get 45% more range for each cast, as stated.

* Modding for the power efficiency hardcap at 75% however, does NOT give you 75% more casts. That grants you 300% more casts!

 

Thorough explanation:

The reason FE (in particular when combined with Streamline) is overpowered is simply because the power efficiency formula is wrong. As was said in the TL;DR, Intensify, Continuity and Stretch all do what they state they do.

 

But power efficiency mods don't.

 

Take Streamline. Increases power efficiency by 30%. That means it SHOULD give you 30% more casts, but it doesn't.

If it gave you 30% more casts, it would've kept its old formula (Powercost / (1 + (Efficiency/100))). It should be reducing the cost of an ultimate to something like this:

100 / 1,3 = 76,92 energycost

 

But the currrent formula that got implemented (due to math-idiots complaining on the forums) does this to an ultimate with Streamline:

100 * 0,7 = 70 energycost

 

This means you are not getting 30% more casts. You are getting 42,85% more casts ((100 / 70) - 1).

 

This was more or less ok when ONLY Streamline existed. With Fleeting Expertise added however, this newer formula (due to being an exponential one) is completely out of hand!

What Fleeting Expertise with the old formula would've done to an ultimate:

100 / 1,6 = 62,5 energycost. This grants 60% more casts.

 

But the new, current formula using Fleeting Expertise does this to an ultimate:

100 * 0,4 = 40 energycost

 

This means you are getting 150% more casts! ((100 / 40) - 1)

 

However, since the formula is exponential, it also means combining Streamline and Fleeting Expertise is INSANELY powerful! So strong that a hardcap on efficiency was necessary!

At the hardcap (75%), this is what they do together to an ultimate:

100 * 0,25 = 25 energycost

 

This means you actually get 300% more casts!!! ((100 / 25) - 1)

 

With the old formula, the balanced one, this is what a maxed Streamline (30%) and a maxed Fleeting Expertise (60%) would've done to an ultimate:

100 / (1,9) = 52,63 energycost. This is 90% more casts, as a maxed Streamline+Fleeting Expertise SHOULD be giving you.

 

So, if you read the spoiler, what needs changing is ONLY reverting back the power efficiency formula to what it used to be.

 

Yes, the other corrupted mods trade something, to get something else. If you consider the positives contra the negatives you can say their "benefits" are around 20 - 33% or so overall.

But with just Fleeting Expertise alone however, (with its insane efficiency as I showed in the quote above), would give you an overall benefit (if you consider the negative duration) of about 60% That's already stronger than most powermods. But it gets way worse: If you combine it with Streamline, you have an overall efficiency of about 160% (!) when you consider the negatives. And that's only IF the ability involved is negatively affected by duration, otherwise the efficiency is at a staggeringly high efficiency of 300%

 

Fleeting Expertise + Streamline, due to the formulas used, is way too strong together, there is no way around that arguement.

 

What needs to be done:

* Revert the power efficiency formula

* Due to the much weaker effect on power efficiency with the old formula, but still very good, the penalty on Fleeting Expertise can even be lowered! A duration penalty of somewhere between 30% and 40% seems about right. I'd suggest 36% (6% per rank).

Edited May 12, 2014 by Azamagon

[Moderius]

I'll drive my previous point home with an additional supporting fact.

 

Support abilities rely heavily on Duration. Support abilities retain their effectiveness throughout levels of enemies and regardless of type. Shield abilities, heal abilities, invulnerability abilities, team buffs, enemy debuffs, CC abilities... they all have Duration as a variable.

 

To think of "No Duration = Nukes" is to pretty much grasp the obvious, low-hanging fruit, and not understand the counterbalancing factors. Add to that, the fact that the nukes are limited by their elemental affinity, effectiveness against higher-level enemies, and simple logic: Every Frame has at least one ability that depends on Duration.

 

Drawing the comparison of Heavy Caliber against Fleeting Expertise isn't logical. Heavy Caliber was changed because it didn't apply to every weapon. However, Fleeting Expertise does apply to every frame. That's a fact. Trying to misrepresent the comparison to further your argument is just twisting the truth to fake a point.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I'll drive my previous point home with an additional supporting fact.

 

Support abilities rely heavily on Duration. Support abilities retain their effectiveness throughout levels of enemies and regardless of type. Shield abilities, heal abilities, invulnerability abilities, team buffs, enemy debuffs, CC abilities... they all have Duration as a variable.

 

To think of "No Duration = Nukes" is to pretty much grasp the obvious, low-hanging fruit, and not understand the counterbalancing factors. Add to that, the fact that the nukes are limited by their elemental affinity, effectiveness against higher-level enemies, and simple logic: Every Frame has at least one ability that depends on Duration.

 

Drawing the comparison of Heavy Caliber against Fleeting Expertise isn't logical. Heavy Caliber was changed because it didn't apply to every weapon. However, Fleeting Expertise does apply to every frame. That's a fact. Trying to misrepresent the comparison to further your argument is just twisting the truth to fake a point.

 

Was someone actually saying that FE didn't affect certain frames?

[HansJurgen]

Rebecca's statements were about Heavy Caliber, not Fleeting Expertise. Period.

 

To imply that she was saying something else is to be presenting false information. You are falsifying support for your argument.

 

Do you have anything real to support this?

 

 

You are overreacting.

Edited May 13, 2014 by HansJurgen

[Moderius]

Was someone actually saying that FE didn't affect certain frames?

 

Hans Jergen was making the flawed comparison with Heavy Caliber. I pointed to that specifically in my post.

[Moderius]

You are clearly upset. Take a time out. 

 

Your account was registered 3 days ago. Play the game some more before you form a critical, constructive opinion about the game.

 

You won your internet argument about nothing. Congratulations. Nice talking, good bye, et cetera.

 

Are you upset that I pointed out a blaring flaw in your unsound argument?

 

You're probably going to be even more angry when I point out that "registered" date is just for the forums. Not the game. Although, apparently you went prodding for something to comment about! 

 

Talk about sour grapes, hm? If you want to imply that I'm "upset" to try and sooth your scorched ego, well...too bad. It just does all the more to illustrate the irony of your "you're mad" accusation. Should I be upset about being right?

[HansJurgen]

Are you upset that I pointed out a blaring flaw in your unsound argument?

 

You're probably going to be even more angry when I point out that "registered" date is just for the forums. Not the game. Although, apparently you went prodding for something to comment about! 

 

Talk about sour grapes, hm? If you want to imply that I'm "upset" to try and sooth your scorched ego, well...too bad. It just does all the more to illustrate the irony of your "you're mad" accusation. Should I be upset about being right?

 

 

Lol. That went downhill fast. Class act.

[Seele]

Why must these threads always devolve into two or three people getting at each others' throats?

I doubt the devs take the problem seriously given how out-of-hand the discussions become.

@Moderius: To say Heavy Caliber was justified to change because all rifles are affected by the new penalty, and similarly Fleeting is balanced because every frame suffers the penalty on at least one power is flawed. All a Nova needs to do to completely subvert FE's cost is Forma off the slots formerly reserved for Null Star and Wormhole, which many players have decided to be a more than acceptable loss for the power gained by doing so. A weapon cannot be modded to have increased accuracy or simply choose to not use accuracy - it debuffs the weapon regardless of how the player uses it. To avoid the penalty the player must not equip the mod at all.

Your argument would be logical if every power, not every frame, suffered the penalty, which is the idea behind this entire thread.

[Moderius]

Why must these threads always devolve into two or three people getting at each others' throats?

I doubt the devs take the problem seriously given how out-of-hand the discussions become.

@Moderius: To say Heavy Caliber was justified to change because all rifles are affected by the new penalty, and similarly Fleeting is balanced because every frame suffers the penalty on at least one power is flawed. All a Nova needs to do to completely subvert FE's cost is Forma off the slots formerly reserved for Null Star and Wormhole, which many players have decided to be a more than acceptable loss for the power gained by doing so. A weapon cannot be modded to have increased accuracy or simply choose to not use accuracy - it debuffs the weapon regardless of how the player uses it. To avoid the penalty the player must not equip the mod at all.

Your argument would be logical if every power, not every frame, suffered the penalty, which is the idea behind this entire thread.

 

Your comparison is flawed.

 

Every gun was not affected my Heavy Caliber.

 

Every frame is affected by Duration.

 

Just because some frames are affected more, and some are affected less, is irrelevant. Heavy Caliber's downside was directed at a statistic that did not exist for some weapons. No matter the frame, Duration exists. If you do as you suggested, and just forma ability slots and don't use abilities, that does nothing to change the circumstances. Restricting the abilities you can use because of Duration does not erase the penalty.

 

If you cannot use certain abilities because Duration is affected, how does that invalidate the comparison? How can you say Duration doesn't affect a frame, if that frame loses entire abilities because of a duration penalty? That's absolutely counter to logic.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Hans Jergen was making the flawed comparison with Heavy Caliber. I pointed to that specifically in my post.

 

Ah okay, I didn't know if anyone had actually made that claim, so I asked.

[SarcasticShepard]

Possible solution to FE, though I don't know if its been been mentioned, is to change the debuff to reducing the armor/health/shields of the frame. There's no rule that the debuff needs to be related to powers, after all... which implies that more corrupted mods could be in the works

[SquirmyBurrito]

Possible solution to FE, though I don't know if its been been mentioned, is to change the debuff to reducing the armor/health/shields of the frame. There's no rule that the debuff needs to be related to powers, after all... which implies that more corrupted mods could be in the works

 

I don't really like it, but you are correct. Nothing says that the debuff must be power related.

[Moderius]

Possible solution to FE, though I don't know if its been been mentioned, is to change the debuff to reducing the armor/health/shields of the frame. There's no rule that the debuff needs to be related to powers, after all... which implies that more corrupted mods could be in the works

 

This would...not at all affect frames who don't really rely on defense stats. Or Valkyr. Or Trinity. 

 

It's a penalty to Duration because all of the most effective support and utility abilities are tied to Duration. Most of the abilities that scale regardless of level, rely on Duration.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Two things to note;  When I was typing up that simple list, I originally completely forgot Sayrn, then added her in when I wrapped it up.

 

Then about five minutes ago I realized before even checking this thread that I never put Banshee on that list at all...

 

Anyways, as per the mention of the proper (old) efficiency calculation versus the technically incorrect (new) one.  While I do completely understand the thought behind the way the calculation should be happening, as we're at 100% efficiency at base, with the +% percent being added or subtracted accordingly.  I honestly completely like the way it is now better despite that knowledge.  If a skill on the current wrong fomula costs 100 and lasts for 10 seconds it costs 50 and lasts for 5 seconds with a one from the top FE.  In terms of raw usability, FE by itself doesn't actually do anything to a skill's effective cost/uptime ratio.  FE merely allows more flexible casts for wide deployment, as well as double the possible "burst" deployment of a given skill.

 

Of course there is the glaring issue of abilities being non-afflicted when it comes to a decrease to duration.  However nearly all of these skills are already not that great in long term/higher level things.  On the flip side though, DE's intended design balance is admittedly aimed at the level 30-40 range at the moment.  However there are far, far, far more outliers that tear that intent to shreds rather than ones which follow it at the moment anyways so looking to that as a balancing point just feels too abstract.

 

Moral of the story?  I have no idea, but I play Vauban as a tank ^_^ to end on a completely irrelevant note.