(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Immagine yourself running a buisness. You work with concurence like evryone else and make 10 times the profit but also take several times longer to actually finish your product. Would this make sense to you? Sry to slap you with a little reality but DE is not working for quality but max profit for quite a while now. They obviously miss employes, don't test theyr content propperly before releasing (whats a actuall option to experiments) and the player base suffers from it - after paying up to several 1000 in some cases. Evry player that paid at least something can expect to get propper work for his money. This is without discussion not the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 What they did with excalibur shows theyr competence. They included a LoS mechanic that doesn't work propperly and broke his complete build down over a couple patches. Why would you praise and love them after they litteraly slapped you in the face? No. Just no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cohee Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 What they did with excalibur shows theyr competence. They included a LoS mechanic that doesn't work propperly and broke his complete build down over a couple patches. Why would you praise and love them after they litteraly slapped you in the face? No. Just no. I don't know. I was never a fan of RJ in the first place and it gives a whole new look at Excalibur. I'd praise them to make Excalibur a new'er version to be updated to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 You seem to be taking it mighty personally that a business needs money to further develop their product.... And no. They did not literally slap me in the face. They did what I expect developers of a beta game to do; test their product. LoS is an incomplete system, and they chose Excalibur to test it out, especially as his abilities were currently being used to meta-farm rather than play the game for the game's sake. And saying they 'broke his build' is really nonsense. Since when does any warframe need to have a specific 'official build' to be viable? Their purpose i s to provide flexibility! I use mods that most couldn't care less about to great effect, and love watching the looks on their faces when they hear I'm using utility mods instead of 'MOAR SHEELDZ'. I'm about 85% on the dev's side here. Could they have done better? Yes. Did they do something terrible and unforgiveable and dramatic oh my by doing EXACTLY what they said they would in testing various mechanics in a public beta? Hek no! And WarFrame has LESS bugs than many fully-released products! (I'm looking at you, Elder Scrolls) On top of they they're constantly improving the mechanics and adding more! And when those mechanics outshine a warframe, he gets a rework to still (perhaps even better) fit his theme and not have abilities to do things everyone can do anyway. If they were doing things only to maximize profit and not care about their playerbase at all, they wouldn't have even given Excalibur another look, nor would they be trying to improve the movement system, nor the spy mission... they would have just released more weapons and made them practically unobtainium except through platinum. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) You don't need to test content after releasing it. Thats my whole point. And nah man, what i take personal is the fact that the profit is used wrong. I mean what do you need for changes? You need a small team to make a concept, programmers to code the stuff (no complains there. These guys do amazing jobs) and a team to test it afterwards. Step 1 and 3, concept and testing went wrong on the nerfs if they even existed. All these problems could be avoidet by investing in your staff. You just need a few people with different oppinions to make the best possible concept and some peeps that have a clear understanding of what it should do for the testing. They do have the money to hire them. But they don't. It doesn't work, nerfs go wrong on regular base and they still rather keep the profit for themselfes instead of investing a little bit. Edited April 13, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 You could usually say that times are hard and concerns miss the money to do so but this is definitly not the case here. It just comes down to greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Alright, as we've covered; this is beta. It hasn't been 'released' yet. They don't have many testers of their own, that's what we as beta players are for. And they ARE investing it. It's likely in a bank, being used for the investment in merchandise, improved servers, better hardware for work and support of the game, and most important, keeping the servers running happily. Making and maintaining a game isn't cheap, and they've pretty much been doing both for almost two years now. On top of that the salaries of all the people currently working on the game, and making those salaries high enough that they don't wander off into other businesses and leave them with newbies that don't know the game they're working on. On top of that, don't even try to hand me the entire 'they have too much money the greedy -bleeeps-!' if they had that much cash, they wouldn't have had their stocks bought. They are being invested IN, and they have to live up to the companies above them as well, who no doubt are getting a percentage of whatever profit they make. And if that wasn't enough, they often struggle to get their own update schedules done on time. I can feel for them, I hate deadlines. It's a lot more fun to tweak things and make them work better and fiddle with the balance settings, to animate, work with particles, to draw the textures for the models and effects (from scratch I might add), to code... all of that takes time and money, and they currently have several big projects in the works. Parkour/movement 2.0, the Orbiter compartment for the Liset, an entire new faction to make worlds, tiles, units, weapons etc. for, a new warframe to try to compliment it maybe, and if not then the next Primed frame and gear to decide, concept, model, texture, and balance for. Then they have more weapons and player demands to contend with... all in all, they're doing a pretty good job. Could they do better? Of course! But I have a fair amount of respect for them because I know what it's like being in a competitive field, trying to make something that looks and works great with a marketing department from another company that doesn't really care about you breathing down your neck 24/7. So I can't blame them for their derps, and they are working hard to fix them. Final problem; how do you know what is the 'best concept'? That's what we, as beta players, are here for. Their concept artists are pretty good, but everything that comes out will need tweaking, and we, the play-testers, are here to give advice on what does and doesn't need it. If you want to play a finished product and have no input on how the game grows and develops, go play ESO or EVE or WoW or something. '-w- Edit; further clarification, and some spelling. Edited April 13, 2015 by WolvenEdge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Showed at the devstream where the changes got explained but clearly didn't work as explained (enemys shooting right at your face get ignored while enemys die that hide behind a crate) Wf, as even defenders state, is allready better then most full games. It IS a full game that gets regular updates and additional content. The beta just serves as excuse at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) And pls, tell me where all this money is supposed to flow in your oppinion. Games aren't cheap considering the time it takes to make one, servers, equipment. But compare it to evry other buisness. I for example work at a inflamnation. The whole thing gets maintained twice a year, the costs go into millions, only to get a little profit with energy. The costs of a game are a joke to this and the profit is way higher. Especially f2p games are known to get the most profit, what showed in a thread just recently where someone straight asked what evryone spends. There wasn't a single post below 60 bucks, the usuall ammount was 2-400. Only the pop industry has a higher raw profit, also selling worldwide. Edited April 13, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 And the best concept would be something that works the best possible way. There are several threads here that show the problems and base on experience. This exactly is what the result should be. A finished version after testing with a range of oppinons, executed by a big enough staff. They don't test it propperly. There is no indication for this assumption. Whats the main reason the player do theyr work, only to get ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Again; excuse vs. reason. An excuse is a made-up response to an issue that seems to cover it, but has the strong connotation of being untrue. A reason is an actual answer to the question. Completeness of any product relies on three things; A; Does it work? B; Are we satisfied with our product/is it up to our spec (This is the hard one in games, as getting something working exactly how you envisioned it in your head is nowhere near easy)? C; Are the customers going to be satisfied? Warframe meets only ONE of the above, only barely. Were they to release it as a 1.0 game at this stage, they would be on better quality par than many other games in the terms of bugs, but it is poorly balanced, and several warframes do not fit the current build of the game, and were made for the early, early builds of the game and haven't changed to meet the new systems. Therefore; the game works, but could use adjustment. DE is nowhere near satisfied with their product, they want their game to work well, and fall nowhere near the area of Sonic 2006. There, I said it. They're avoiding releasing a half-finished game, and what they have, in their own eyes, is not finished. We, the customers, are also not satisfied. Sure, we enjoy it, but we point out and debate flaws in many areas, animation, art, balance of weapon and frame, balance of theme... we demand higher quality and more content. This game, by that definition, is NOT complete. Many of the core mechanics of the game are due for a major overhaul as the developers become better at their craft. If I remember right, this started as a pet project for a group of older teens/young adults who enjoyed playing Dark Sector. It's come a long way. But progress does not mean finished. We've only just made ice picks and have started climbing the mountain. We've realized we forgot something, went back home, and are coming back at it with better tools. Business models are something I really, really don't like doing, but ok. As soon as you can tell me how much of their stock is owned by what companies, and how much of their profit goes to those companies as a result, I will use what knowledge I have of budgeting and the foes that every game-maker/modder faces and do my best to assign prices to them. Ok... the best concept is 'something that works in the best possible way'. So, what IS the best possible way? How do you know that? How many different viewpoints of the 'best possible way' are there? How many answers to a solution work well enough to be a 'best possible way', and how do you find these solutions? It's not as easy as it sounds. Imagineering/engineering/brainstorming isn't something that many people can do well, what with imagination being stifled in modern society. I'm lucky to have retained as much of an imagination as I have left, as small and tattered as it is. Now onto one point you made that is WAY off the mark. Regular content updates are; additional weapons or gear, additional storyline or characters, additional quests, additional items to find, more dungeons... you get the idea. All of these rely on content frameworks that already exist and will not change. Warframe does NOT have many solid systems that will not change, and those systems that ARE solid still have bugs to work out. Warframe is about to go through a major update sometime in the next few months that will completely rework the way we Tenno get around the maps, effectively scrapping the system they already use and putting in a completely new one. Can you imagine if the Elder Scrolls Online tried to do that? It wouldn't work! All the content that relies on that system would have to undergo a massive overhaul, and they aren't going to do it as their product is already released. Warframe is holding themselves back from releasing, yes, because they want to add in new systems and improve the ones they already have, alongside scrapping systems that exist and aren't fitting. The beta ends when the developers of the game are satisfied with their work, and can go to bed with a sense of accomplishment and pride over what they've done, confident that they and the players that follow them can play in the game for as long as they wish without fear of major bugginess, incomplete systems, and/or major inconsistencies that make no sense to the game's mechanics. And now, to address the one point in your argument so far that REALLY ticks me off. http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/268/c/c/cc4f7e18499128aa642eb87581143418-d6ntiil.jpg You said that DE doesn't listen to us. Have you even LOOKED at the warframe called Zephyr? At the new fan-made textures for many of the weapons, at the balances that have been done lately thanks to fans and players reporting the bugs? Have you ever even fought a Manic Grineer? Have you seen anything at all that I and many others have been typing about the advent of Parkour/Movement 2.0, or of even THIS VERY THREAD about Excalibur's up and coming rework? ALL of these are the results of DE listening to the fanbase. If they had not listened to their fans, WarFrame would be a very different game, probably a lot less fun and a lot less well-balanced. Please do more research on multiple topics pertaining to the issue before just basing your opinion of a game and an entire group of people that made it on ONE FACET of their public image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Not to forget D) will people use it as reason to accept any bug and inbalance. You produce a game, you start a open beta and people still accept evry faupax after YEARS and pay you money like crazy Cause beta. Betas are buggy and they need the money. Would you EVER drop the beta status? Do you think DE will? I don't. Edited April 13, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0ckwolf Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 -snip- We are getting mighty Off-Topic here guys! For whatever reason you might think DE is only after proftis, i must politely ask to discuss it in another Thread. It is abundantly clear to me that Warframe is a labour of love and not a mere cash cow that´s been produced for the moneys sake. If you feel differently and think you have reason and argument on your side, then feel free to open a Thread about this Topic, but please respect that this Thread is about discussing Excaliburs current and upcoming Abilities and giving Feedback on those, everything else is really not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 DE gets praised for something they agree on after they #*($%%@ it up in the previous step. Where else if not here would be the place to talk about it. This kind of destructive, mindless work on that kind of budget is just unprofessional as can be. And the praise just shows that it works. This kind of attitude slowly kills gaming for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0ckwolf Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 DE gets praised for something they agree on after they #*($%%@ it up in the previous step. Where else if not here would be the place to talk about it. This kind of destructive, mindless work on that kind of budget is just unprofessional as can be. And the praise just shows that it works. This kind of attitude slowly kills gaming for all of us. well, i think you are missing the point here! Excaliburs Abilitys outdate pretty much every other system in the game, that is the reason he is currently underwhelming, not because DE #*($%%@ something up. I agree though that his previous attempts to resolve the issue have been semi-succesfull at best, but i think it shows determination and commmitment to the cause that they are now pretty much completely reworking him based on community feedback. That is not an easy thing to do as well, it requires multiple programmers, designers and animation artists to do such a thing! You give DE way too little credit for this! If you have actuall Feedback or suggestions to contribute to the discussion i´m very curious about it, really! But at the moment you just seem to rant at DE and you´re doing it mostly unjustified as well, which is neither apreciated nor relevant in this Thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronyn Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 If you have actuall Feedback or suggestions to contribute to the discussion i´m very curious about it, really! I have some....In another thread.https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/439404-excalibur-an-alternate-take-and-proposal-on-his-upcoming-rework/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0ckwolf Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) I have some....In another thread.https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/439404-excalibur-an-alternate-take-and-proposal-on-his-upcoming-rework/ Great Job Bro, i left a comment with my thoughts on your ideas in the Thread. :) Edited April 13, 2015 by r0ckwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexlars Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 well, i think you are missing the point here! Excaliburs Abilitys outdate pretty much every other system in the game, that is the reason he is currently underwhelming, not because DE #*($%%@ something up. I agree though that his previous attempts to resolve the issue have been semi-succesfull at best, but i think it shows determination and commmitment to the cause that they are now pretty much completely reworking him based on community feedback. That is not an easy thing to do as well, it requires multiple programmers, designers and animation artists to do such a thing! You give DE way too little credit for this! If you have actuall Feedback or suggestions to contribute to the discussion i´m very curious about it, really! But at the moment you just seem to rant at DE and you´re doing it mostly unjustified as well, which is neither apreciated nor relevant in this Thread! Very well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Outdate. They implemented something that can't be in the game. Neather the structure, nor the ai is meant to allow LoS. Thers been many threads about this allready so it can be considered a given. They simply broke him with experiments that don't even work propperly. And seriously, i couldn't care less about the topic. My problem here and the whole reason i'm even typing is the acceptance and praise for people who do a bad, overpaid job. You wouldn't praise a cop shooting your wife, builders that F*** up your home, bakers that poison your food. So why are you guys fanboying over DE? I'll appreciate them the moment they start doing a perfect job on something for a change. Thers just no reason to appreciate or even praise them for bad work. Edited April 13, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexlars Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Outdate. They implemented something that can't be in the game. Neather the structure, nor the ai is meant to allow LoS. Thers been many threads about this allready so it can be considered a given. They simply broke him with experiments that don't even work propperly. And seriously, i couldn't care less about the topic. My problem here and the whole reason i'm even typing is the acceptance and praise for people who do a bad, overpaid job. You wouldn't praise a cop shooting your wife, builders that F*** up your home, bakers that poison your food. So why are you guys fanboying over DE? I'll appreciate them the moment they start doing a perfect job on something for a change. Thers just no reason to accept or even praise them for bad work. Praise isn't the right word as it has a much stronger positive connotation than just being thankful. We're glad that they're are fixing an outdated character. Simple as that. They're not being "praised" for what they've done with him thus far, we're just glad that they're making him more relevant with a total revamp of his powers. Even if praise WAS the case (which, again, it is not)? Why do you care how other people feel? It doesn't effect you at all. That and no one is fanboying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 And even if you don't realise it, this attitude, this acceptance for evry misstake just makes things worse for all of us. Humans need reason. What reason is there for propper work if evryone hypes them eather way? Why testing content propperly if just waiting for a S#&$storm is enough? You few guys here aren't evryone, nor do you represent evryone. But you act for all of us. And make it worse for all of us. Fanboying is never a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)CoolD2108 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) They decidet to revamp him after they broke him. The same guys do this, why would you not threat this as whole? Can anyone here rly say that you're thankful that excalibur is in this situation? Edited April 13, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelSD Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 They already broke it. I have mixed feeling with this "rework". Whenever DE touched Excalibur, it always got worse and worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 We are getting mighty Off-Topic here guys! For whatever reason you might think DE is only after proftis, i must politely ask to discuss it in another Thread. It is abundantly clear to me that Warframe is a labour of love and not a mere cash cow that´s been produced for the moneys sake. If you feel differently and think you have reason and argument on your side, then feel free to open a Thread about this Topic, but please respect that this Thread is about discussing Excaliburs current and upcoming Abilities and giving Feedback on those, everything else is really not needed. My apologies. So, how about that new sword that he'll likely be getting? Any design hopes/ideas? I'd like an actual broadsword, we don't actually have any of those in the game, almost all our blades are one-sided katanas, axe-blades, or cleavers, with the rare exception of the Galatine, Gram, and Plasma Sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolvenEdge Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 And for the record; mindless hate and greed is not what is making yet another attempt to fix excalibur after an experimental new system that is reaching better levels of completeness 'broke' him. The system is new; of course it will be buggy, and it didn't 'break' him, it made him outdated. So they're giving him an update. Really, what more can you ask? That they never make a mistake? Alrighty, imagine that every single time you stubbed your toe, every single time you tripped, bumped your knee, said something that wasn't quite nice, etc. was unavailable to be forgotten/forgiven/healed, but instead clung to as if everything hurtful that you EVER did to your body and those around you was somehow better than making attempts to patch yourself up and keep moving? Your cuts and bruises would never heal, your friends would abandon you over the smallest things, or use every mistake as blackmail, your body would 'LIKE' the cuts, bruises, and broken bones... because 'everything you do messes it up further!' and not allow you to get any better. That's what players like you are doing to game companies. Let's let Excalibur heal, and help guide him into healing right. That's right. Let's Be The Splint! x3 (totally going to be my call card on these subjects now) TL;DR Give them a break already. Did you see the bags under their eyes and the exhaustion in their movements and voices in the dev stream? They're a small team on a big project, and don't want to bring many other people into their team because that person carries a strong risk of not understanding the game they're building, and pushing it in a direction that is completely different than the epic they have in their heads. And now, I am officially DONE with this subject. Onward to discussing Excalibur's further changes in-game, rather than changes in his budget! Let's have less of this http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/169/9/6/Energy_Sword_by_SoundwaveSuperior.jpg And more of this! http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091003231335/yuyuhakusho/images/2/2a/Sword_of_the_Darkness_Flame.jpg http://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2011/346/0/5/psionic_blades_by_ladyamanita-d4ixktp.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now