100+ Defense Waves Are Not A Balance Point Guys Stop It!

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Seriously the amount of people that claim that X Frame is not balanced because it can’t do Wave 70 on Void or some S#&$ like that is incredible, how you even get to that conclusion?

 

Do you even know how defense/Survival scaling works? The Lv of Enemies scale with the average planet lv + a certain amount depending on the planet and the wave count, some nodes may start with 10 then go to 11, 12, 13 and so on while other may jump from 20 to 40 on the next wave/minute, the longer you fight the stronger the enemy lv scales and that increases both Damage and defense, yes since there is no end this is scaled to INFINITY, they will keep getting stronger to the point they are dealing 10 times their damage and you will end up doing like 100 damage or less! With humongous amounts of Armor/shields and health.

 

How do you even try to talk about anything balance related taking such a unbalanced Mode that is supposed to force you out of there due to enemies being far stronger than you? IT’S SUPPOSED TO SCALE IN RIDICULOUS WAYS SO YOU CAN’T JUST STAND THERE FARMING NON STOP ON THE SAME RUN. Is that clear enough?

 

Stop claiming something is unbalance because it can’t reach wave 100 on a defense or 50 min mark on survival cause that is not balanced!

 

Warframe still doesn’t have a proper Late game that you could compare to, the closest think we have I think its Pluto, or maybe the Derelict I don’t know, haven’t been on Derelict yet.

 

Don’t mind me I’m just trying to toss some sense into this cause its really annoying to see that kind of BS post.

[Dark5eiD]

you havent been on derlict yet?

[Caramelaion]

[TylerFreeman]

yep, its pretty much this.

 

some people really need to know bringing a bucket to an ocean won't make things easier

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

dirtyvinny Only once and i remember watching infested around 34 and Grineer of 40 or higher. it was some time ago and havent got the time to really explore them and take notes. I dont like to comment on things i havent properly seen.

[Namacyst]

Imho doing more than 15 Waves of Defense is not only a waste of time but also unnecessary because you will not get anything better when it comes to rewards. People who do it may continue to do so but should shut up about anything balance related regarding Waves 15+.. therefor i agree with op.

 

It's the same as with conclave... it is there, you can do it but from a balancing point it can be completely ignored because it's your choice to do it and not a necessity for a playable game.

 

If you suck at Wave 70+ .. not the game's or balancing's fault but yours...because you play it.

 

If your Warframe can't kill S#&$ at Wave 70+ and dies instantly... not the game's fault but yours...because you play it.

 

If you whine about it... again.. your fault.. you will get flamed, ignored or laughed at because there is nothing to whine about.

 

The so called "balancing" DE currently is trying to do is nothing more than arbitrary stat placement and testing because they seem to have no bigger concept in mind.. or in other words: a plan. People play, pay and it works... that's why we don't have lore, endgame or, for example, a Tiered Weapon system, Mastery linked content or any kind of skilltree's.. because that requires focus towards a bigger goal in the future (which hopefully the focus system will bring, no naming-pun intended).

 

TL;DR

 

+1 for op

Edited May 27, 2014 by Namacyst

[2rei]

its ok to do more 100 waves and do 2 hours on surv you just need more practice  and good cooperate with people  just relax

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Namacyst pretty much my post in a nutshell :D

 

2rei Is not that you can or cant do it. If you want just do it but what i hate is when people come to the fórums to whine about the lv 500 Heavy gunner that one shotted their precious RHino prime cause their Boltor prime was doing like 200 dmaage to their armor.

 

You can do it but dont complain about balance on something that is not ment to be balanced.

Edited May 27, 2014 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[HillsAndTheSea]

people want the game to be balanced around higher waves because there is more loot and exp that way.

 

 

personally i think its stupid and would rather the game be challenging, but the vocal part of the community (the ones who did the mission feedback survey) says challenge is second to loot, so no wonder the game is so easy

[Dark5eiD]

dirtyvinny Only once and i remember watching infested around 34 and Grineer of 40 or higher. it was some time ago and havent got the time to really explore them and take notes. I dont like to comment on things i havent properly seen.

fair enough...just shocked me as its been out for 4 major builds.

[2rei]

Namacyst pretty much my post in a nutshell :D

 

2rei Is not that you can or cant do it. If you want just do it but what i hate is when people come to the fórums to whine about the lv 500 Heavy gunner that one shotted their precious RHino prime cause their Boltor prime was doing like 200 dmaage to their armor.

 

You can do it but dont complain about balance on something that is not ment to be balanced.

dont understand as you know rhino  solo frame , boltor is not good for 100+ so i dont understand you

[neKroMancer]

Huh, I got bored when there are players who claim that as well. Why would anyone think that the game should use infinite scaling as balance? That's insane, right? Right now you can fight Lv 60 AI with Boltor Prime, next week DE release something that allow player to reach Lv 80 then the entir game should be balanced with Lv 80 as well?

 

Powercreep at its finest.  

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

HillsAndTheSea thats one of the things Warframe could learn from Borderlands 2. Easy missions = Crapy loot. Harder Missions = Epic loot

As easy as that.

 

2rei I have seen fully groth Iron Skin Rhino Primes being dropped on seconds my ludacristly high lv Grineer. Specially the Heavy gunners and Napalms.

Boltor was just an example. ALso the wave 100 thing depends on the lv, enemies on wave 100 on earth wont be as high as wave 100 enemies on Pluto or deleric.

 

dirtyvinny nah you know being busy lving S#&$ up like Trinity, Saryn and Booben. Only now im crafting the Derelic Keys to see if i can finaly get nekros.

 

neKroMancer Luckily DE seems to be looking for a way to implement a true Late Game, dont know what they are planning but my hopes are high.

Edited May 27, 2014 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[stickybuds]

Enemies hit level 100 around wave 55 in ODD. Most games I'm in, players without catalyst/forma setups have already capped out on damage by that point. I think that's a fair assesment of 'balance'.

 

Anything beyond that, with starch/forma'd weapons/frames SHOULD be OP, and you SHOULD be able to build up to wave 100+ or hour long + survivals.

 

There's two seperate perspectives here. To what 'balance' do you refer? Weapons/Frames as they are put into the game ~ or Weapons/Frames min/maxed by the players to sometimes broken extents.

 

It's not all the same thing, you have to understand the context.

[AscendantWyvern]

I'd say the closest to the current endgame has to be the Derelicts and TIII. 

 

Is it endgame? Hell no, but it's a better balancing point than 50 minutes in Survival or wave 50.

 

Endless survival and Endless defense. 

 

Let's take a step back and look at that. Endless. And yet, people say balance revolves around these gametypes.

 

I'm with the OP...stop associating balance with the endless gametypes. Endless gametypes are endurance runs, challenges that pit you against "the world". 

 

If these endless balancers had their way, the gametypes wouldnt do anything but challenge your patience.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

stickybuds Dificulty=Reward is what i consider a proper balance. Going on a wave 100 defence is not really rewarding in my opinión, i would rather get to wave 20 or so and reset, I think is 20 where you get special mods and stuff. Also Defence and Survival are Endurance gametypes, they are suposed to scale endlessly to see how much can you last and thats not exactly balanced.

 

AscendantWyvern Well Dark Sectors are pretty much patience test rather tan challenge. It all boils down to "how many times you can spam Vortex and Desecrate before you get a cramp". Hope that new Juggernaut unit shake things up.

Edited May 27, 2014 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[stickybuds]

stickybuds Dificulty=Reward is what i consider a proper balance. Going on a wave 100 defence is not really rewarding in my opinión, i would rather get to wave 20 or so and reset, I think is 20 where you get special mods and stuff.

 

Completely agree on defense reward scaling being broken. I actually erased that bit, thought it was OT ;p

 

@Wyvern ~ The reason those mission types are considered the 'standard' or 'test' is prescisely because enemies scale infinately. Other mission types, the enemies will always stay the same level (around 30-40ish) throughout the entire mission.

 

Now if you want to say, level 30-40 mobs 'should' be considered the 'rule', I wouldn't have a problem with considering that for 'entry level balance point' ~ ie weapons/frames that are not starched/forma'd.

[Joyfulmama]

The scaling is just OP. Needs to be fixed

[AscendantWyvern]

 

@Wyvern ~ The reason those mission types are considered the 'standard' or 'test' is prescisely because enemies scale infinately. Other mission types, the enemies will always stay the same level (around 30-40ish) throughout the entire mission.

 

With enemies that have infinite scaling the only balanced items are those that scale infinitely. 

 

This would mean weapons need an infinitely-scaling adjustment and almost all powers need one as well. 

 

And all that effort is for three gametypes (but really...who actually plays Interception, let's just say two), when the rest of the gametypes can be as imbalanced as possible because of what? Are they just filler? 

 

Tower III has enemy levels around 55-65, which is a good balancing point to match for. 

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

AscendantWyvern Yeah 40-60 is a good cap to talk about "balance". Enemies are strong but manageable if your good enough.

[Garuda4711]

Have you ever given thought to the fact that there are people (like me) who love to fight enemies Lv75+ ??? Who would love to be able to START a mission somewhere between Lv75 and Lv100, despite the fact that the drops are as lousy as everywhere else? (yes, we wouldn't mind a shiny badge,  just to show off ;) )

 

Against any enemies below 75 you don't need any formaed gear; you can do it with Lv15 equipment, if you bring the right frames. So you might call (almost) every frame "OP" up to that point.

 

I don't understand any of the balance discussions BELOW Lv75.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Garuda4711 OK 75 MAY be considerable but im talking about people complaining about getting their assess kicked by lv 100 or higher enemies who are suposed to almost one shot you, thats not balance or a fair challenge at all

Edited May 27, 2014 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[MegaSnail]

AscendantWyvern Yeah 40-60 is a good cap to talk about "balance". Enemies are strong but manageable if your good enough.

It' 35-50, that's what I consider every frame should be balanced around. 

[AscendantWyvern]

It' 35-50, that's what I consider every frame should be balanced around. 

35 seems a bit too low, though. Might be good for balancing non-tater'd frames. But potato'd frames can go to 35 without effort. I think 50 is a good level compromise for it.

[MegaSnail]

35 seems a bit too low, though. Might be good for balancing non-tater'd frames. But potato'd frames can go to 35 without effort. I think 50 is a good level compromise for it.

If we do that it'll be extremely op at low levels.