Trinity's Blessing Issues & Improvements

[AntLion]

Well I can agree, Blessing that gave us total invincibility for about half minute at the same time deprived some challenge from game. So changes were needed. Too bad eventually we got new issues with this skill.

Now Blessing is quite underpowered, it's very situational and uncomfortable to use (especially comparing with other ults).

Atm it's impossible to find perfect build for Blessing to use all advantages it gives.

 

Sure, you can use Fleeting Expertise and not put Duration mods to make Blessing spammable but such build will hurt Link badly and make it much less effective. Because it's painful to recast it so often. With unranked Blessing and some combination of Fleeting Experise + Power Duration mods you can make Link and Blessing last about 15 sec and 5 sec accordingly. But Blessing becomes less spammable in this case. It's really hard to find the best solution because now the shorter power duration is, the better for Blessing but worse for Link and vise versa. And using Blessing like better version of Well of Life you don't get any benefits from damage reduction part of this ultimative ability.

 

Sure, you can use Quick Thinking and hurt yourself to death to get total invincibility with Blessing (yep, same effect (it seems) so many people complain about and devs tried to remove). But it's very risky and difficult tactics because you're limited to use special modded weapons, because post-nerf Quick Thinking (and its combo with Rage) is not near as effective as before and random enemy just can kill you or take away all your energy while you (with 2 HP) have to rely on effect of that pretty rare mod. I doubt even 28 sec damage immunity can excuse so many barriers you need to overcome.

 

What's about the middle ground: standard long duration builds (without Quick Thinking) that could allow Trinity to use Link freely and not only restore allies shields/health with Blessing but also provide decent damage reduction without excessive complexity? Too bad such builds are not vialable now because if you cast Blessing in wrong time you won't get any damage reduction and can't heal allies for whole period it lasts. You literally can't help your wounded teammate in this deadlock condition. It really reduces the value of Trinity as support-frame.

 

So I think Blessing should be recastable and refresh damage reduction modifier according current allies stats (restoring health and shields). Also it would be very useful if every frame in your team could see its current damage resistance on HUD.

 

But there is another problem. Most of players I see don't use Vitality mod (some of them don't use even Redirection) and their health is not high enough (200-400 HP). Also low ranked frames who go on mission for XP farm have just 100-200 HP. It doesn't give Trinity enough time to react in the middle of combat and cast Blessing before ally starts bleeding on the floor. You know high level enemies can take away all health in a few shots/hits.

 

So I think Damage reduction modifier should be based not only on amount of health restored by Blessing but also on amount of shields. The formula could look like that:
Damage reduction modifier = 0.4 * (shields_restored / max_shields) + 0.6 * (health_restored / max_health)

 

For example: Some frame (who has 500 max shields and 300 max health) gets serious damage. Trinity casts Blessing and restores all its shields and 200 health.

In this case Damage reduction modifier = 0.4*(500/500) + 0.6*(200/300) = 0.8

It means after restoring shields and health whole team gets 80% damage reduction from Blessing. Not bad.

 

In other case when that frame doesn't get any damage upon health and Trinity restores only its shileds:

Damage reduction modifier = 0.4*(500/500) + 0.6*(0/300) = 0.4
Or 40% Damage reduction for whole team. Fair enough I think.

 

According the suggestions above Trinity could provide at least 50% damage resistance of her team without any risks to fail this important supporting role.

It won't hurt low duration Blessing spam-builds or Quick Thinking pseudo-immortality builds. But it will make standard long duration builds viable and comfortable to use.

It won't make her "OP" and balance breaking. But it will allow Trinity to react on changing ingame situation as fast as possible and ensure adequate protection of her teammates when they need it.

 

Your thoughts?

 

[Few edits to improve grammar and clarify some points]

Edited May 29, 2014 by AntLion

[Stefe]

Use an unranked Blessing so you can run a high duration Link while being able to spam Blessing on a short cooldown.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Stefe

[-Mr.Meeseeks-]

I agree with the fact that Blessing is indeed in need of a tune up with how they butchered it. These two ideas sound like quite good solutions to the problems at hand. 1+

[AntLion]

Use an unranked Blessing so you can run a high duration Link while being able to spam Blessing on a short cooldown.

I know that. And if you read carefully it doesn't solve all problems I mentioned.

Edited May 28, 2014 by AntLion

[Andoryuu]

+1 for recastability and shields included under damage reduction calculation. That would really help with healing those 800/300 frames under fire.

[Azawarau]

I ran a fleeting build that wasnt even maxed and had 11 second link with a... 4? second blessing i think

 

I dont have a rank 0 blessing so i cant use the build the way id like to

[SanityRobot]

I'd rather them just rework it rather than try to work with what it currently is. A reactive healing ability really just has no place in Warframe where people can go down in half a second. Outside of gimmicks that is.

 

I'd rather see it as some kind of dynamic damage reduction. Like, the further below the of other frames a player is, the less damage they take. Like, if three players are at full health and one player is at 10%, he has 90% damage reduction. If everyone else is at 80%, he would have a 70% reduction, etc.

 

It helps counter spike damage to a single player, but it is less powerful against sustained party-wide damage, in which case Well of Life excels.

[AntLion]

I ran a fleeting build that wasnt even maxed and had 11 second link with a... 4? second blessing i think

Yes, using unranked Blessing and some combination of Fleeting Experise + Power Duration mods you can make Link and Blessing last about 15 sec  and 5 sec accordingly. But Blessing becomes less spammable in this case. It's really hard to find the best solution because now the shorter power duration is, the better for Blessing but worse for Link and vise versa. Also as I mentioned with short duration build you can't use benefits from damage reduction part of Blessing.

 

 

I'd rather them just rework it rather than try to work with what it currently is. A reactive healing ability really just has no place in Warframe where people can go down in half a second. Outside of gimmicks that is.

 

I'd rather see it as some kind of dynamic damage reduction. Like, the further below the of other frames a player is, the less damage they take. Like, if three players are at full health and one player is at 10%, he has 90% damage reduction. If everyone else is at 80%, he would have a 70% reduction, etc.

 

It helps counter spike damage to a single player, but it is less powerful against sustained party-wide damage, in which case Well of Life excels.

Complete rework can take a long time 'cause devs said they're busy with Nova, Oberon and Valkyr now. But we need working Blessing asap. So some small fixes (according my ideas, for example) would be appreciated.

Also what's about restoring shileds/health with Blessing? You offer to get rid of that, do you? Well, without healing even 90% damage reduction won't help your teammate to stay alive if he has just 10% of health.

But according your dynamic damage reduction suggestion if you restore all health you take away all damage resistance as well. Not good.

Edited May 28, 2014 by AntLion

[Azawarau]

You can drop continuity or constitution for a bit less link time but still a ton

 

Energy cost really isnt all that important on trinity anyways

Edited May 28, 2014 by Azawarau

[AntLion]

You can drop continuity or constitution for a bit less link time but still a ton

 

Energy cost really isnt all that important on trinity anyways

Sorry, did you actually read what I wrote? I'm just wondered how some people only see part about Link/Blessing duration problem and don't pay attention on another issues I described.

I didn't complain about energy cost btw. After Energy Vampire buff Trinity is a mistress of living energy batteries.

Edited May 28, 2014 by AntLion

[Azawarau]

Sorry, did you actually read what I wrote? I'm just wondered how some people only see part about Link/Blessing duration problem and don't pay attention on another issues I described.

I didn't complain about energy cost btw. After Energy Vampire buff Trinity is a mistress of living energy batteries.

Well you stated the obvious so what else do i need to add?

 

Shorter duration more heals

 

Higher duration means DR

 

Youre comparing them like one build is worse than another here and trying to make an argument where there is none

[AntLion]

Well you stated the obvious so what else do i need to add?

 

Shorter duration more heals

 

Higher duration means DR

 

Youre comparing them like one build is worse than another here and trying to make an argument where there is none

Well, I see you don't get the point of this thread. I'm not comparing builds like one build is worse than another. I use them all if you want to know. And I'm not very happy with their results.

I opened this thread just to show issues with Blessing in different builds (especially with long duration builds) and suggest the way to fix them. That's all.

Because I'm afraid now people are more concerned about Nova's changes than Trinity and DE left her alone for the next several months.

 

PS: Anyway thanks for your thoughts (and bump). ;)

Edited May 28, 2014 by AntLion

[Azawarau]

Ok then lets take it in that direction

 

Blessing should be usable during its CD to make up for long points of being unable to heal at all

 

I agree with this

 

Trinity being underpowered is a massive understatement

 

And people not using redirection or vitality should be soft. The problem with old trinity was her ability to negate that side of modding and now people are thinking glass cannons are underpowered and needs buffs...

 

I did a 40 min T 3 survival with an ember who only died once and had 40% of the damage where i had 20% with my tanky valkyr

 

Thats pretty balanced in my eyes

 

Trinity is alot of the same no?

[AntLion]

Trinity being underpowered is a massive understatement

I didn't say that. I said Blessing is underpowered due its issues I pointed above.

Trinity is ok to care about herself. Infinite energy with Energy Vampire, Blessing for healing and Link for self-protection.

But she is not so good to protect her team (with Blessing) from incoming damage as before. So this ability should be improved.

 

And people not using redirection or vitality should be soft. The problem with old trinity was her ability to negate that side of modding and now people are thinking glass cannons are underpowered and needs buffs...

Most of people even get rid of some abilities to replace them by mods that make the rest skills more viable for late game. Because we are very limited in mod slots now (I hope this problem will be fixed by Focus system). If people didn't use Vitality or Redirection (or both) before, they won't use them after Blessing nerf as well.

 

It's not good for Trinity 'cause she can always care about herself but she has no enough time to care about her wounded teammate before he will be killed by group of 40 lvl enemies due his low health pool. Also it makes harder to find right moment for Blessing to provide decent damage reduction for team. All of this negates supporting role of Trinity.

That's why I suggest not only to make Blessing recastable while it's on but also to make Damage reduction modifier being based on amount of health AND shields restored by Blessing.

 

I did a 40 min T 3 survival with an ember who only died once and had 40% of the damage where i had 20% with my tanky valkyr

 

Thats pretty balanced in my eyes

 

Trinity is alot of the same no?

?

Ember and Valkyr both have a lot of issues with their abilities and still need some rework, btw.

Trinity is in much better situation. Only Blessing needs some attention from devs.

Oh, yeah, and her ugly lobster skirt.

Edited May 29, 2014 by AntLion

[TwiceDead]

I rolled with Trinity some today to check out these changes to blessing. 

First thing I noticed was that a high-cost, long duration build was somewhat counterproductive, since it can't be re-cast, as the OP mentioned... However then I slapped on Quick Thinking which prevents lethal damage until your energy is drained, which gives you enough time to (hopefully) recast Blessing with an impressive DR for a long duration. . .

 

The problem after that is healing for the long duration where blessing remains unavailable, and all you can really rely on then is Well of Life. This is not really a problem with blessing itself, it's just a downside to the build I was running with at the time. 

 

And then there's the problem where Long duration builds screws with Energy Vampire, increasing the time between pulses... Not that it matters too much though, just shoot the enemy dead and that's solved. 

 

The build I found out I preferred though was a low-cost, low-duration build. Remove any duration mods on Trinity and slap on Fleeting Expertise, and you can re-cast blessing every 4 seconds or so if it's maxed out, potentially even less if Blessing isn't maxed out. Still rolling with Quick Thinking though. 

 

On the argument that frames are too squishy to react to damage, that's their fault for not running with Vitality or Redirection in their builds. 

 

To be honest, I think she's fine. I had two issues however:

#1.

The HUD to see your teammates status. It's in a bad spot. You should be able to move it to an area of your preference, you should also be able to customize the size of it. You can already affect the huds size, but if you do you affect the entire hud, not just some parts of it. 

 

#2.

Personally I think blessing needs to be capable of being cast in mid-air. This is crucial to reactionary healing, or else you'll have to stay grounded... Which is kind of boring at times. 

Edited May 29, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Azawarau]

I didn't say that. I said Blessing is underpowered due its issues I pointed above.

Trinity is ok to care about herself. Infinite energy with Energy Vampire, Blessing for healing and Link for self-protection.

But she is not so good to protect her team (with Blessing) from incoming damage as before. So this ability should be improved.

 

Most of people even get rid of some abilities to replace them by mods that make the rest skills more viable for late game. Because we are very limited in mod slots now (I hope this problem will be fixed by Focus system). If people didn't use Vitality or Redirection (or both) before, they won't use them after Blessing nerf as well.

 

It's not good for Trinity 'cause she can always care about herself but she has no enough time to care about her wounded teammate before he will be killed by group of 40 lvl enemies due his low health pool. Also it makes harder to find right moment for Blessing to provide decent damage reduction for team. All of this negates supporting role of Trinity.

That's why I suggest not only to make Blessing recastable while it's on but also to make Damage reduction modifier being based on amount of health AND shields restored by Blessing.

 

?

Ember and Valkyr both have a lot of issues with their abilities and still need some rework, btw.

Trinity is in much better situation. Only Blessing needs some attention from devs.

Oh, yeah, and her ugly lobster skirt.

Trinity blessing is not underpowered int he slightest

 

If you dont take advantage of the DR you wont get much out of it so you have to use your head

 

And again anyone with low shield/health should die at high waves instantly, Its a min/maxing thing

 

Ive been playing healers for a very long time in games and i know it can get micromanagy

 

If youre not good at that then it isnt the healers fault, its the player that cant keep up

 

For the most part i can keep my team well healed and protected because im used to watching HP mid combat and reacting quickly

 

Try to practice being a micro manager and youll find her more useful

 

As a side note

 

I micro manage terrible with about everything else ever

[AntLion]

On the argument that frames are too squishy to react to damage, that's their fault for not running with Vitality or Redirection in their builds. 

 

To be honest, I think she's fine. I had two issues however:

#1.

The HUD to see your teammates status. It's in a bad spot.

#2.

Personally I think blessing needs to be capable of being cast in mid-air.

Yes, it's their fault but It also makes Trinity much less effective to protect her team as she did before. It's not good. And not only me feel that.

#1

I agree with that. Currently hud has a lack of customization.

#2

Yes, it's a problem too. Fortunately, it was fixed in latest patch.

 

Trinity blessing is not underpowered int he slightest

I dunno what you mean. So I'll ask straight: Do you think Trinity's Blessing is completely fine and my suggestions to improve it have no sense?

 

If you dont take advantage of the DR you wont get much out of it so you have to use your head

 

And again anyone with low shield/health should die at high waves instantly, Its a min/maxing thing

Nothing in this game requires to use your head more than usually. Currently for using Blessing effectively it needs only to make short duration build and spam it forgeting about damage reduction part. It really limits Trinity's customization variety 'cause long duration builds aren't viable anymore. If we can't use damage reduction benefits from Blessing normally, so why devs added this feature? If it exists ingame it should work as intended and be comfortable to use.

 

If frame has too low health pool (I see that a lot when I play with PuGs) it doesn't give Trinity enough time to react and heal him providing decent damage reduction. If she can't support her team this way, so what the sense to have her in squad in long runs when damage reduction becomes very important thing.

If Blessing would be recastable and its damage reduction modifier was based not only on amount of health restored but also on amount of shields it would be more comfortable to support you team.

Edited May 31, 2014 by AntLion

[Rekkou]

Many abilities relies on aspects that are contra productive to each other that even middle ground becomes build variation. I don't see why this is any different.

[Azawarau]

I dunno what you mean. So I'll ask straight: Do you think Trinity's Blessing is completely fine and my suggestions to improve it have no sense?

 

Nothing in this game requires to use your head more than usually. Currently for using Blessing effectively it needs only to make short duration build and spam it forgeting about damage reduction part. It really limits Trinity's customization variety 'cause long duration builds aren't viable anymore. If we can't use damage reduction benefits from Blessing normally, so why devs added this feature? If it exists ingame it should work as intended and be comfortable to use.

 

If frame has too low health pool (I see that a lot when I play with PuGs) it doesn't give Trinity enough time to react and heal him providing decent damage reduction. If she can't support her team this way, so what the sense to have her in squad in long runs when damage reduction becomes very important thing.

If Blessing would be recastable and its damage reduction modifier was based not only on amount of health restored but also on amount of shields it would be more comfortable to support you team.

Its not underpowered

 

But could use improvement

 

Yes these two things can be together

 

Idk about you all but i use a max duration blessing still make use of the damage reduction to keep the team alive

 

If they cant survive even with DR i know im tanky enough to revive them because link is broken an lasts a long time

 

If a frame has low health it should use vitality or redirection

 

If it doesnt then its natural for it to die quickly

 

Honestly people should avoid trouble as much as possible

 

Let me just say

 

Trinity can no longer indefinitely prevent death and thats how it should be

 

People can and will die

 

Do your best to prevent that and dont call her underpowered because she cant prevent 100% of all deaths

[AntLion]

Its not underpowered

But could use improvement

Yes these two things can be together

 

Idk about you all but i use a max duration blessing still make use of the damage reduction to keep the team alive

If they cant survive even with DR i know im tanky enough to revive them because link is broken an lasts a long time

 

If a frame has low health it should use vitality or redirection

If it doesnt then its natural for it to die quickly

Honestly people should avoid trouble as much as possible

 

Let me just say

 

Trinity can no longer indefinitely prevent death and thats how it should be

People can and will die

Do your best to prevent that and dont call her underpowered because she cant prevent 100% of all deaths

Well, it looks you just don't like the word "underpowered" that probably insults your favourite frame... As for me, I don't like when people in Warframe abuse the word "overpowered".

I call Blessing underpowered 'cause now it has issues or restrictions in different builds and doesn't allow to use all its potential.

 

I find weird that I should choose between effective healing (making Blessing shorter) or decent damage reduction (making Blessing longer). It means I always use advantage only from 1/2 part of this ult. So why does it cost by default 100 energy but not 50? It would be the same nonsense if you needed to choose between Nova's MPrime double damage buff or enemy speed debuff; between Valkyr's WarCry melee speed buff or armor buff.

 

I see the problem not in the fact that Trinity can't prevent 100% of all deaths anymore. I see the problem that she has now a great chance to fail her supporting role with Blessing (casting it in a bit wrong time) in critical situation. The situation that actually determines the need for Trinity in the team. My suggestions could reduce this chance. And I'm glad if you find them useful as well. "Everything is ok" statement won't allow Warframe evolving, won't make it better.

 

These changes won't hurt anyone who feel Trinity is completely fine atm but they would help those who find her less effective and comfortable to use after upd13.3. I read another threads and, believe me, I saw enough people who have the same thoughts about Blessing issues. So, I decided to share my ideas (like I did earlier about other things in Warframe). Probably I'm just wasting my time and no one from DE will even notice them (or devs just have different opinion). But, well, I've tried.

Edited May 31, 2014 by AntLion

[Azawarau]

Well, it looks you just don't like the word "underpowered" that probably insults your favourite frame... As for me, I don't like when people in Warframe abuse the word "overpowered".

I call Blessing underpowered 'cause now it has issues or restrictions in different builds and doesn't allow to use all its potential.

 

I find weird that I should choose between effective healing (making Blessing shorter) or decent damage reduction (making Blessing longer). It means I always use advantage only from 1/2 part of this ult. So why does it cost by default 100 energy but not 50? It would be the same nonsense if you needed to choose between Nova's MPrime double damage buff or enemy speed debuff; between Valkyr's WarCry melee speed buff or armor buff.

 

I see the problem not in the fact that Trinity can't prevent 100% of all deaths anymore. I see the problem that she has now a great chance to fail her supporting role with Blessing (casting it in a bit wrong time) in critical situation. The situation that actually determines the need for Trinity in the team. My suggestions could reduce this chance. And I'm glad if you find them useful as well. "Everything is ok" statement won't allow Warframe evolving, won't make it better.

 

These changes won't hurt anyone who feel Trinity is completely fine atm but they would help those who find her less effective and comfortable to use after upd13.3. I read another threads and, believe me, I saw enough people who have the same thoughts about Blessing issues. So, I decided to share my ideas (like I did earlier about other things in Warframe). Probably I'm just wasting my time and no one from DE will even notice them (or devs just have different opinion). But, well, I've tried.

Why would i take that personally? Disagree =/= i dont like hearing her called underpowered

 

Its called an opinion

 

If you learn to heal efficiently with long duration you can make amazing use of blessing

 

Im not sure what people are thinking saying that DR is bad or not useful or underpowered

 

Ive seriously been using trinity way too well or something because that DR has been so good to me in the new missions

[SanityRobot]

I've started kicking Trinity from groups when people try to roll her.

 

Useless frame is useless.

[Clats01]

pretty much all i can say is, you have yourself to blame, reading to first few paragraphs it looks like you were one of the people that complained about it being too OP now its UP, instead of this community saying Cyrille has an ability that is too OP needs nerf, they should say well what if leaders had dispel like the stalker, that would of countered the blessing spam, or some other counters, but no everyone cried nerf.

 

trinity was fine with the way her blessing worked, all that needed to be done was reduce the effect time and add a 50% cool down based on the users duration, but everone that hates trinity wanted it reworked, now even they say its underpowered, theres just no winning for the devs with this community that wants nerfs but not new ideas for enemies to counter the effects.

 

edit: after thinking it over for a few minutes dispel wont work, due to all the rhino kiddies crying that their iron skin no longer gives them god mode, but still needs to be looked a to give more balance

Edited June 1, 2014 by Clats01

[Azawarau]

I've started kicking Trinity from groups when people try to roll her.

 

Useless frame is useless.

Youre just dumb for that one

 

pretty much all i can say is, you have yourself to blame, reading to first few paragraphs it looks like you were one of the people that complained about it being too OP now its UP, instead of this community saying Cyrille has an ability that is too OP needs nerf, they should say well what if leaders had dispel like the stalker, that would of countered the blessing spam, or some other counters, but no everyone cried nerf.

 

trinity was fine with the way her blessing worked, all that needed to be done was reduce the effect time and add a 50% cool down based on the users duration, but everone that hates trinity wanted it reworked, now even they say its underpowered, theres just no winning for the devs with this community that wants nerfs but not new ideas for enemies to counter the effects

Except shes not UP

 

Learn to use her correctly

[SanityRobot]

pretty much all i can say is, you have yourself to blame, reading to first few paragraphs it looks like you were one of the people that complained about it being too OP now its UP, instead of this community saying Cyrille has an ability that is too OP needs nerf, they should say well what if leaders had dispel like the stalker, that would of countered the blessing spam, or some other counters, but no everyone cried nerf.

 

trinity was fine with the way her blessing worked, all that needed to be done was reduce the effect time and add a 50% cool down based on the users duration, but everone that hates trinity wanted it reworked, now even they say its underpowered, theres just no winning for the devs with this community that wants nerfs but not new ideas for enemies to counter the effects.

 

edit: after thinking it over for a few minutes dispel wont work, due to all the rhino kiddies crying that their iron skin no longer gives them god mode, but still needs to be looked a to give more balance

 

Admitting that something is overpowered isn't asking for it to be nerfed to trash tier.

 

Blessing is a joke now.

 

Run an energy battery build, or switch to something that sucks less. Until Blessing is fixed it's a waste of energy and slot that could be filled with a Volt or something.