Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[grillv20]

He didn't ignore the question, he actually gave quite the lengthy response... its like you guys stopped listening when he said it contained a lot of bs...

 

No, I heard all the stupid crap he said, all the way up to his path of exile comparison that was also completely terrible.

[Nalo1993]

He didn't ignore the question, he actually gave quite the lengthy response... its like you guys stopped listening when he said it contained a lot of bs...

I honestly got lost in his description, and I still think that he shouldn't completely write off an idea that is actually solid (well I think it is at least).

[Nalo1993]

Btw grill got a message back already.....she said shes working on it right now to see if he will take a second look at it.

[grillv20]

Btw grill got a message back already.....she said shes working on it right now to see if he will take a second look at it.

 

Wow, thats absolutely wonderful! :D

[Razer_Angel21]

.NOTE:I AM STUPID,SO READ THIS FULLY FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND MY STUPIDITY.I SWAPPED CHOOSE WITH CHOSE AND I CAN'T FIND IT SO PLEASE DON'T BOTHER IT.Would you mind suggesting a solid idea on this thing?I mean solid and original idea because as you said,you despise unoriginal concepts.I'll admit,I can do a rage of text about wrongs of DE,but I can't make a wall of text regarding solid proposals which are original and that would synergize well with the game's theme.So basically,if you don't want the dev's doing unoriginal concepts and ideas,don't even compare it with other games with a more broad theme and especially an open world game with a very non-binded to something character.I hate RNG sometimes,yes,I hate that killing is the only way to kill and confront enemies,I'll tell you what,what are you gonna do to them?Stun them and just run away from them the whole mission without killing them?I don't know what is fun for you,and I am very stupid too,but if ever a game which has the same genre as warframe,has something to keep it's players going,it is killing.I never saw a shooter where it's players wants to beat a single enemy unit without killing it.

Second,you are criticizing the specific load-out needed to fight something?So first,you want a way to beat enemy units without killing them,then you want every boss to be weak to every load-out and not a specific build?OH MAN MOTHER FFFFFFFFFFFFF come on?where is the logic,you just split the 2 ironic criticisms on the first part and end part but put them together and read them straight and there isn't a logic I can tell.I seriously agree with trial and error,better AI,better behavior,but...don't touch the damage type because it is something that makes each boss unique,instead,give the AIs a certain sequence of what to do's when a player does this or that so that the AI itself can adapt with the players,then the players would adapt with the AI,and so on and so forth.So about the vay hek,I got really disappointed on you,why the hell do we have 3 weapons plus a sentinel?Choice?Yah maybe,you can choose to melee all the way,yes and no.Yes,you can chose to melee all the way,but if melee is so flexible and can kill anything,it would be everyone's weapon.Say guns can kill range and close,if you would use that and tell it to me,I'll tell you,if melee could kill everyone efficiently(no bullet cost),who the hell would waste time reloading if you could just flip your dagger out,copter to vay hek,and slash his ugly face to pieces?SEE?IT IS PERFECTLY IRONIC TO WHAT YOU WANT OF DIVERSITY,you said you want players to have certain different approach to each enemy but hell?If you could melee all kinds of bosses then there isn't a different approach but melee or guns,what makes that different?Being not able to melee a certain boss is something different because the others can be beaten by melee,that is what makes them and the gameplay different,and BTW you can melee hek after you shoot him,so you can go and switch play styles,be an accurate gunner at some point,then become a raging berserker at the next,that is different!

THHHIIIRDDD!!!Oh boy,DMC,one of my favorite series,contains awesomeness and heart at the same time with some graphical approach.Hey that spoiler is good,except that I have played and finished all DMC series and those DMC 4 boss fights,let me summarize.Hit this,Pick up that,hit this,go to this and hit this,hit this again,go to this and hit this,hit that,go there and hit that,hit that moving object,go here and execute more hits to that.Uhm,yah,that's pretty much it,the combo moves are the only thing which kept me playing it and nothing more,not the ways to kill the bosses because those ways aren't unique and are just copy pasted ideas from all the other bosses of DMC 4 but they made it looked original with different copy pasted tactics pasted into copy pasted pattern moves.Setting the difficulty to the point that the enemies one hit you,or you one hit the enemies changes only one thing on bosses' behavior,and a little to the normal enemies.So,basically its a copy past idea boss game with superb flashy action combos as band-aid.But don't get me wrong,I loved the whole DMC series but DMC 4 as an example,sure I enjoyed it but if I go deep down it,bosses are copy pasted patterns with some great puzzle journey to reach them.I have played God of war series,Ninja gaiden,NInja blade,and this DMC,but by far Ninja Gaiden and DMC are my picks for those,why?Maybe there is a more logical story and I enjoy the art and action more.But anyway,just to say what I want to say,DMC isn't a formidable solution to the copy paste you are whining about.

Seriously haven't played dark souls,but through youtube vids and reviews,your statement,I might relate.That boss?Manus?Yah it might be like scythe head lephantis,chose to go up close and dodge its down ward attack(which stucks his weap) so that you can get better shot on its head after you successfully dodged his attack,or stay in long range to not even get a scratch but get a lil bit hardship on aiming for the pink part.So if that is what you are looking for,Lephantis is the boss you want.Second,Dark Souls,open world.Warframe,dungeon type.I see no point in comparing those two with instances content,because they are of a different sub-genre..you could compare them by boss fights,correct,but not by it's instances.They accommodate everything,there is so much freedom of choice,in a game where there are certain end-game weapons,fun is always a choice.For me,I always go fun instead of looking in the base performance of a weapon,because you would always do your best when you like what you are using or seeing,not because it is viable or the strongest,but because you chose to.In warframe you could do melee only in a lot of bosses,but absolutely not on certain ones.Why not?Diversity and difference,like I said,if you could kill any boss with just a melee,why bother sacrificing efficiency with bullets when you have unli slashing ability.Same with warframe now,if you are lazy to run to a boss,why bother doing melee,because of choice dude.That is why I find your statement just some pieces of ironic-to-each-other stuff written away from each other so that no one would easily notice.So yah,as to most of MMOs and RPGs(make solid MMOFPS excluded i.e. Battlefield,Ghost Recon,Blacklight,and others of the same type as the 3 listed) you really have to rely on equipment,because,if you wouldn't have to bother upgrading your equipment,where is the progression that you want,to obtain end game equipment you still need to have skills to survive and not be a dead weight to a team or to yourself when doing solo.As with me,the time I started playing warframe,I can't connect to anyone,so I did solo from mercury straight to pluto and to the void,need equipment to survive,yes,what equipment?a braton to pluto and a boltor in the void,and that was the time when the boltor did only 18 damage per shot.So yes,I relied on my equipment to survive,but my equipment relied on my aiming skills and senses.RNG is not actual gameplay blah blah knockdowns and parries,so here is what I think.Parry,having a perfect parry is something too OP(yes,I used the term OP) on a PvE game,because think about it,perfection,you never go wrong,is boring,even with real battles you don't have 100 percent chance,in real sword fights you don't have 100 percent chance that you would successfully block an opponents attack,you would only have a higher chance by how?experience in doing it,but you would never get the perfect on that craft,same as here,parry chances are  and can be varied by a mod,which is then leveled up,leveling up means experience because you need to have tons of cores to level it up and to get cores you need gameplay and if you had gameplays for a while you already have experience in the game which is then translated on to how many mods and especially cores you have to level up that parry mod and finally increase your chance of counter attacking an enemy.Long story short,it's like life,trial and error,experience is what makes something almost perfect,that is why they didn't give a 100 percent parry chance,there is still a 1 percent that you would miss(base parry chance plus the parry mod maxed won't contribute to 100 percent chance because I fail to counter attack an enemy sometimes),explains a lot now ehhh?You wanted trial and error,here is a micro example of it which DE has since melee 2.0.

So to summarize my review about the sword stuff,you are wrong about it,it isn't there because of its' limitations,it is there because of freedom,the freedom to chose what you are,the freedom of knowing the other efficient or somehow much better way but still doing your own to show the world that the way you have found is on par with the efficient and powerful ways.For me,being unique in warframe is a choice and shouldn't be changed,being unique in a warframe is a choice,a chance to show your own way that would amaze and break all those common ways,that would make a stat addict say wow and want your skana for what he saw,warframe offers the greatest amount of freedom,you aren't stuck to a support role because of guns and swords.Not stucked on an offensive role either because of your utilities(except Ash,Loki and Nova) and also the introduction of status chance gets you out of the all-damage role into a new concept of stunning enemies even though you lack a stun ability in your frame's kit.For me those are the points that you missed,everything my novel,lel,contains,you kept arguing about warframe's freedom when you failed to see that this game's freedom is far larger than what you are seeing,you are just looking at a dot on a huge painting.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Razer_Angel21

[Nalo1993]

Wow, thats absolutely wonderful! :D

Don't know if you saw it already, but he posted a reply on page 53 of Zamboni's thread.

[LukeAura]

So to summarize my review about the sword stuff,you are wrong about it,it isn't there because of its' limitations,it is there because of freedom,the freedom to chose what you are,the freedom of knowing the other efficient or somehow much better way but still doing your own to show the world that the way you have found is on par with the efficient and powerful ways.

False choice is a problem. It doesn't matter if you can choose anything else. 

The only important is part is if all the choices have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another that make them roughly equal. 

You've basically said the problem doesn't exist by the way, so I'm not sure why you've bothered with such a long post. 

 

[SquirmyBurrito]

No, I heard all the stupid crap he said, all the way up to his path of exile comparison that was also completely terrible.

 

Apparently not. He brought up PoE as an example of a game with a skill tree system, and an expansive on at that.

[Razer_Angel21]

False choice is a problem. It doesn't matter if you can choose anything else. 

The only important is part is if all the choices have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another that make them roughly equal. 

You've basically said the problem doesn't exist by the way, so I'm not sure why you've bothered with such a long post. 

 

Exactly,if all the weaps are on par to each other,then everyone would be whining of the lack of diversity of the end game.Like,someone who just got to Mars could already go t4 and t3 wave 100s if all would be equal or roughly equal.The reason of sub par ways,especially if you point out the swords,is choice,and having a choice could yes,lead to a false one,but isn't that the point of playing a game?Back when I was playing games without a wiki I like the "trial and error" of my choices,that is why I bothered with such a long post,to address OP's insights of trial and error also.Weapons have tiers and different roles in every games,except the games which relies only on melee or only on guns,but in the end,melee should have a disadvantage which is quite logical.

[Razer_Angel21]

False choice is a problem. It doesn't matter if you can choose anything else. 

The only important is part is if all the choices have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another that make them roughly equal. 

You've basically said the problem doesn't exist by the way, so I'm not sure why you've bothered with such a long post. 

 

As I've said on your other post,or another forum member with the same account picture,you couldn't compare warframe's melee to games which invokes melee as their protagonist like how he compared warframe to a game where melee is the final and ultimate weapon and the melee could shoot beams or something like that,melee as we know it,both on real life and some games with little logic,should have clear limitations since of their range.Example,S4 league,oh the melee here is good,BUT,it has limitations,you cannot easioly melee someone flying in the air.And it is hard when someone is kiting you with a gun.But why didn't they made it become limitless?Because what is the essence of going melee?Of course you should know before going melee about your range limitations,both in s4 and warframe those limitations are clear,you cannot easily melee some flying enemy or high things.Maybe in warframe you need to jump then slide attack,OR IN s4 you can wall jump then attack,or flap your own wings and do a melee battle in the air,and then that's it.I have killed ospreys in melee only and also have taken down lephantis using only melee by using Excalibur to just to those heads and slide attack(yeah,but it took me 30 minutes,dem) so considering that,melee is always just here for diversity.I always wonder why people are whining about the limitations of melee when DE clearly gave us 3 weap slots,hmmmmm,I wonder what to put on these 3 weap slots....ahhhhh melee on each if possible!!!

Edited July 5, 2014 by Razer_Angel21

[Tulzscha]

Merged a thread linking to a thread.

[Razer_Angel21]

False choice is a problem. It doesn't matter if you can choose anything else. 

The only important is part is if all the choices have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another that make them roughly equal. 

You've basically said the problem doesn't exist by the way, so I'm not sure why you've bothered with such a long post. 

 

Also,that is a summary of my review for the swords,and not my entire post,so read everything for you to know why I bothered commenting to OP.

[Razer_Angel21]

False choice is a problem. It doesn't matter if you can choose anything else. 

The only important is part is if all the choices have advantages and disadvantages compared to one another that make them roughly equal. 

You've basically said the problem doesn't exist by the way, so I'm not sure why you've bothered with such a long post. 

 

I by some way,yes,basically said the problem "OP said" doesn't exist.But I cannot express my thoughts to english easily,why?Well,read the beginning of my long post.What I want to say here,the "problem" you are shoving to my face isn't the topic of my whole post,but,it should be addressed either way.I just came here to say that,the problems warframe has is something,some consequences of it being dungeon instanced,don't get me wrong though and compare warframe to any dungeon type games,because other dungeon types also has weapon tiers and it is on your choice to choose what weapon you want.False choice....there are always false choices,but it is part of the diversity,killing those false choices and some other "rougly" not equal choices would kill the weapon tier system and everything could be brought to end game,where is your progression on that.And by the way,if you haven't read,I said that the damage type change or removal isn't the option to improve fun and replayability,as opposed to what OP said.I said that if OP want's replayability the thing DE needs to do is an AI who adapts to what the players do for the players to have the need to adapt to what the AI does.So basically my long post isn't a long post about the swords,and I have written no summary to it,only for the swords.My post was to address OP's problems and give some insights about how to fix those and not all about melee.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Razer_Angel21

[DiabolusUrsus]

He didn't ignore the question, he actually gave quite the lengthy response... its like you guys stopped listening when he said it contained a lot of bs...

 

No, I understand that he totally gave a carefully considered response that directly addressed the question... I was just thoroughly disappointed with the nature of that response.

 

It's bullS#&$ that there are only a few viable builds for each weapon? I don't think so. There are maybe four different "viable" builds for each weapon - one designed around countering each of the enemy factions. Why? Because elemental damage is the only thing that mods decently into every single weapon. If crit mods were useful on non-crit weapons, and if status chance mods were useful on non-status chance weapons, I'd agree that the mod system provides quite a bit of depth. However, in order for it to be true customization, it cannot be a source of viability. It can fine-tune how the weapon handles - recoil, fire rate, punch through, reload speed, zoom level, etc., but it can't be the only way a weapon gets the damage output it needs to be competitive. If modding is all about customization, which is what Steve said it was, then "unmodded" needs to be a respectable customization in its own right.

 

No, I heard all the stupid crap he said, all the way up to his path of exile comparison that was also completely terrible.

 

This. Nobody is asking for cliched "skill trees" that you can find in any other game. The modding system itself doesn't need to be completely re-worked. The mods and weapons themselves just need to be balanced. Steve was right in claiming that the basic framework for a very deep and engaging customization system was in place. He was wrong in claiming that it was fine as is, aside from a few "useless" mods here and there. 

 

Tiered mods are also a horrible idea. An absolutely HORRIBLE idea. It does nothing to fix the issues at hand, dilutes drop tables further, and creates more mods that need to be balanced. DE can't even handle the balance they already have on their plate, and they want to add more to balance? Don't make me laugh. 

 

I'm kinda busy this weekend, but I'll try to put something together in the coming week.

 

Also, am I the only one here who was really upset with Scott for making that asinine "Is Update 14 out yet?" comment? I mean, come on dude. You may have given that answer earlier in the stream, but how the hell was someone's pre-selected question supposed to predict that? And if I hear reference made to the prosecutors as an interesting and engaging enemy type one more time, I'm flipping some tables. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

*snip*

 

1. No, you don't actually understand the general intent behind my original post.

 

2. My separate game "comparisons" were not actually comparisons at all, but contrasts. Examples of well-designed mechanics as opposed to Warframe's mish-mash of semi-boss encounters. Things that Warframe should strive to achieve (not copy in entirety, just learn from some of the basic concepts of game mechanics.) 

 

3. Your "weapon tiering system" is a myth. A false idol. It does not exist in any respectable form under Warframe's current system. Otherwise weapons like the Boltor Prime wouldn't be Mastery Rank 2. So don't talk to me about breaking tiering until there is actually a tiering system to break. 

 

4. I think you need to re-consolidate your understanding of the definition of "false choice." 

 

5. Replayability is going to stem from curtailing player damage potential to within a reasonable margin, creating interesting boss fights that push players to the limits of their skill not fights that rely on vulnerability gimmicks and instant-kill attacks, and can be attacked in a variety of ways. e.g. with guns, melee, and powers. 

[arisaka]

Exactly,if all the weaps are on par to each other,then everyone would be whining of the lack of diversity of the end game.Like,someone who just got to Mars could already go t4 and t3 wave 100s if all would be equal or roughly equal.The reason of sub par ways,especially if you point out the swords,is choice,and having a choice could yes,lead to a false one,but isn't that the point of playing a game?Back when I was playing games without a wiki I like the "trial and error" of my choices,that is why I bothered with such a long post,to address OP's insights of trial and error also.Weapons have tiers and different roles in every games,except the games which relies only on melee or only on guns,but in the end,melee should have a disadvantage which is quite logical.

I don't understand why balance (which is what happens when weapons are roughly equal) leads to a lack of diversity. Dota and League of Legends are balanced games, mostly, which is exactly why you can play lots of heroes in different combinations and still do well. Yet each hero has specific strengths and weaknesses which give them different roles and synergies. Same for Counter Strike, a game with much less weapon variety than Warframe, yet somehow makes every gun useful and more or less balanced. (I would also like to point out that I'm not talking about competitive play here, since that will limit you somewhat. However, keep in mind that competitive play in the games I've mentioned does not limit you to one strategy.)

 

You also don't understand what a false choice is. It's different from what you're describing as trial and error. There are going to be optimal choices when it comes to modding weapons and frames, but when there is ONE choice that leaves everything else in the dust, suddenly every other option is no longer a viable option since EVERY OTHER COMBINATION will be inferior. That is false choice. Trial and error is when you figure out a viable build. False choice is when you figure out or look up the only viable build.

[Razer_Angel21]

I don't understand why balance (which is what happens when weapons are roughly equal) leads to a lack of diversity. Dota and League of Legends are balanced games, mostly, which is exactly why you can play lots of heroes in different combinations and still do well. Yet each hero has specific strengths and weaknesses which give them different roles and synergies. Same for Counter Strike, a game with much less weapon variety than Warframe, yet somehow makes every gun useful and more or less balanced. (I would also like to point out that I'm not talking about competitive play here, since that will limit you somewhat. However, keep in mind that competitive play in the games I've mentioned does not limit you to one strategy.)

 

You also don't understand what a false choice is. It's different from what you're describing as trial and error. There are going to be optimal choices when it comes to modding weapons and frames, but when there is ONE choice that leaves everything else in the dust, suddenly every other option is no longer a viable option since EVERY OTHER COMBINATION will be inferior. That is false choice. Trial and error is when you figure out a viable build. False choice is when you figure out or look up the only viable build.

.....Do I even need to say anything,ok let me remind you,this game has guns and swords,different characteristics even with guns.Not all guns have equal firepower therefore not all guns are roughly equal,they vary from each other sometimes slightly,or significantly.Let's face it even in history there were guns which are made at the same timeline but the other being obsolete and underpowered to the other.Don't get me wrong about comparing a game with real life,what I am saying is that a sniper rifle should have it's own cons so as a slow firing assault rifle and a shotgun,you cannot just ignore their inherent properties to their type and go balance the S#&$ and equal all of them out.

[Razer_Angel21]

I don't understand why balance (which is what happens when weapons are roughly equal) leads to a lack of diversity. Dota and League of Legends are balanced games, mostly, which is exactly why you can play lots of heroes in different combinations and still do well. Yet each hero has specific strengths and weaknesses which give them different roles and synergies. Same for Counter Strike, a game with much less weapon variety than Warframe, yet somehow makes every gun useful and more or less balanced. (I would also like to point out that I'm not talking about competitive play here, since that will limit you somewhat. However, keep in mind that competitive play in the games I've mentioned does not limit you to one strategy.)

 

You also don't understand what a false choice is. It's different from what you're describing as trial and error. There are going to be optimal choices when it comes to modding weapons and frames, but when there is ONE choice that leaves everything else in the dust, suddenly every other option is no longer a viable option since EVERY OTHER COMBINATION will be inferior. That is false choice. Trial and error is when you figure out a viable build. False choice is when you figure out or look up the only viable build.

ALSO NOTE THIS:If  ever I am wrong,fine,but for me diversity is not just on looks,imagine if they are roughly equal,all weapons,with just different looks but almost the same performance,you would just be shooting and the results were almost perfectly the same,for me that is boring and lack of diversity.I don't see diversity by the number of different looking weaps with almost the same performance,I see diversity with a number of different looking weaps which gives me DIFFERENT results from the other so I can play the game on what performance I like,should I play it with a low damage weap on high level if I want some challenge,or should I get this high powered weap if I am farming something important that needs no failure.Diversity isn't about looks,it is about having different looks and different results in terms of performance.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Razer_Angel21

[CBAROG]

barely readable posts

Nobody is asking for the "same performance" for guns. Go read notionphil's Balance 2.0 thread. 

[LukeAura]

Let's face it even in history there were guns which are made at the same timeline but the other being obsolete and underpowered to the other.

That really has nothing to do with balancing a video game. Balancing isn't an idea in real life. 

And, 'roughly equal' does not mean 'roughly the same'.  The level of skill, effort, and dedication needed to be a professional Hockey player is roughly equal to that of a profession Basketball player. But these are incredibly different sports requiring different skillsets and put up different situations. Those two players are nowhere near the same. 

A Sobek and a Tigris should be roughly equal because they are both mastery 4 weapons, however what a Sobek is good at and what the Tigris is good at, don't have to be. And what they both fail at are different as well. If you are to weight the pros and cons of any two weapons within their same rank they should be roughly equal in terms of value, not general performance, despite their differences in stats and situations they excel or do not excel in. 

The problem lies in that general performance is the sole value, Sobek is a better general performing weapon and is therefore superior. No accounting for anything that isn't comparable, because there are no incomparables. 

 

Edited July 10, 2014 by LukeAura

[Palamudin]

@Razer_Angel21 +1 and thats why i am rank 10 with 1k hours.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Palamudin

[Rajko]

Nobody is asking for the "same performance" for guns. Go read notionphil's Balance 2.0 thread. 

I missed that one, link?

[LukeAura]

 

I missed that one, link?

He keeps most of his big threads linked on his profile for future reference.. Although I've grabbed it any ways. 
https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233948-balance-20-the-cost-of-power/

[Rajko]

 

 

He keeps most of his big threads linked on his profile for future reference.. Although I've grabbed it any ways. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/233948-balance-20-the-cost-of-power/

 

Thanks!  

[Azamagon]

That really has nothing to do with balancing a video game. Balancing isn't an idea in real life. 

And, 'roughly equal' does not mean 'roughly the same'.  The level of skill, effort, and dedication needed to be a professional Hockey player is roughly equal to that of a profession Basketball player. But these are incredibly different sports requiring different skillsets and put up different situations. Those two players are nowhere near the same. 

A Sobek and a Tigris should be roughly equal because they are both mastery 4 weapons, however what a Sobek is good at and what the Tigris is good at, don't have to be. And what they both fail at are different as well. If you are to weight the pros and cons of any two weapons within their same rank they should be roughly equal in terms of value, not general performance, despite their differences in stats and situations they excel or do not excel in. 

The problem lies in that general performance is the sole value, Sobek is a better general performing weapon and is therefore superior. No accounting for anything that isn't comparable, because there are no incomparables. 

 

Exactly, very good point.

 

Let's continue in that Shotgun example:

As you say, Sobek is indeed overall better than Tigris. But if, say, Tigris got some innate punchthrough, a faster reload and did even more (even if just a bit more) damage, then maybe they would start to become more equally VIABLE compared to one another. But we did that tweaking/balancing/whatever-you-wanna-call it, and they still behave very differently from one another, despite their increasedly comparable viability.