[Suggestion] Revolutionary Ai (Technically)

[Sophronius]

So here you are, fighting Grineer. As an Excalibur armed with your Braton, Lato, and Skana you venture in to the next corridor with fellow tenno at your side. The alarm has sounded and the Grineer are aware of your presence. The next door opens and you see a wall....of lancers...Shield lancers. They have formed a line, completely blocking the corridor. A Scorpion stands at an opening in the middle of this wall. She flings forth her "O.P. ROPE" and pulls away the tenno next to you. The wall closes and your ally is brutally lacerated by five grineer butchers. Bombards take position behind the shields and begin to fire upon you. What now?

So let's say that you charge behind the wall of shield lancers. You find yourself standing amongst a group of Troopers which proceed to happily blow you away. (Complementary of the Queens)


How can this be achieved? Intelligent AI? Kind of. The idea is to use preset formations.

In simplest terms; Assign unit 1 of formation "Bravo" to move to predefined position 1. Unit 2 to predefined position 2. The AI does not have to think very hard to figure this out. Each tile can have a variance of formations which can be RNG selected.

This will create diversity beyond, "Look at the thing and shoot the thing." If done correctly, players will be met with tactics by which will require strategy in order to overcome the adversity.

This will also provide a sense of accomplishment for players. It may end up creating those "epic" moments of gaming that many people enjoy.


On a tile, formations can be defined using points/locations.

Point A: Tenno insertion in to the tile. This is where initial resistance is met. Thus, for example, they may use a shield wall.
Point B: Middle of tile: The bulk of force is located here. This should be consisted of units with optimal coverage and firepower.
Point C: Exit: This is just before you leave the tile. Particular units may be here to prevent a hasty exit. Or special units such as snipers could be placed here to provide fire support.


This will encourage stealth gameplay. (Or at least disabling that alarm)


Hopefully an idea such as this can be implemented. Thoughts?

I will attempt to be active on this thread, but I am very busy most my day.


Responses:

As notionphil has stated, we need better dumb enemies before improving the intelligence of impotent ones.

Well I think the point was to capitalize on the weakness and strengths of the current enemy types and actually, ya know, make them a military instead of mindless bullet bags. lol And making the system RNG based would make it unpredictable. I, for one, love the idea.

This is the idea. With the implementation of new units across the board, as DE says they are doing, we can leave the useless enemy types on lower levels. Or perhaps even get rid of them. Seriously, a prod crewmen is a worthless enemy type. I cannot deny that.

I don't know what DE's engine is fully capable of. My hopes are that it can do this. Only DE knows whether or not something like this is possible; Which is why I have not put forth a lengthy demonstration of how to implement this idea. Because my demonstration may not work with their engine, it is up to DE to find a creative way to put this in the game. I simply wish to provide the thought or idea.

Not only that, but there's also the fact that such formations would be completely lost on... say, a Volt or Nova.

press 4 to disperse

This is actually a solid point. There is a purpose to using certain abilities against formations. For instance, mag's pull could have a use against a shield wall.

Not all formations have to be tight groupings of enemies. Some can be spread out to counter things such as M-Prime.

It would be great if a few particular powers had a specific use against a certain formation. However, in reality, every AoE power will have the same effect on every formation, which is to instantly destroy or dispurse them.

 

It's not just M-Prime. Its Overload, Miasma, Chaos, Absorb, Bastille, World on Fire, Fire Blast, Vortex, Tornado, Pull, Soundquake etc etc. Nearly every frame has a single button push which will totally negate any formation that enemies can be arranged in.

 

If the "formations" are not a semi-tight grouping, then what will be different from the player's perspective? A shield lancer here, 2 gunners there, a napalm up there, a scorpion behind this pillar. That is indistinguishable from a normal spawn.

 

So sure, a formation might look cool. But it will have no effect on gameplay, unless for some odd reason the entire group is OOP, which in the world of energy siphon and 25 cost ults, doesn't really happen. It will just mean the enemies die in nice organized rows; hey, at least the loot will be easier to pick up.

 

How can this be fixed? We need enemies that can confer power resistance (even if not 100%) in a small AoE around them. This is what mobs like Ancient Healers and Grineer Commanders should be doing instead of switch teleporting and "healing" units which are dead in one hit.

This.

The formations would be a great idea, but I concur with what you are saying. Ults are ridiculous and nullify any attempt to make "better AI." Power Resistance sounds like an excellent solution.

Power resistance + "Formations" = better gameplay/AI?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Sophronius

[Drunken_Child]

Would make the game more interesting.

[Sitchrea]

Dude, you read that in one minute. lol and yes, would love to see something like this. +1!!

[UmamiSalami]

FORMATION BRAVO!

[Metalarcher]

AI is a bit more difficult to implement than you've made it out to be.  And while I agree that more complex enemy behaviors like that shield lancer phalanx you described would be a cool addition, what kind of formation could a bunch of prod crewmen get into?  The "huddle up and die from one Orthos strike" formation?

 

As notionphil has stated, we need better dumb enemies before improving the intelligence of impotent ones.

[--Q--uaint]

Not only that, but there's also the fact that such formations would be completely lost on... say, a Volt or Nova.

[Sitchrea]

Well I think the point was to capitalize on the weakness and strengths of the current enemy types and actually, ya know, make them a military instead of mindless bullet bags. lol And making the system RNG based would make it unpredictable. I, for one, love the idea.

[blackstraykitten]

press 4 to disperse 

[Sophronius]

 

As notionphil has stated, we need better dumb enemies before improving the intelligence of impotent ones.

 

Well I think the point was to capitalize on the weakness and strengths of the current enemy types and actually, ya know, make them a military instead of mindless bullet bags. lol And making the system RNG based would make it unpredictable. I, for one, love the idea.

This is the idea. With the implementation of new units across the board, as DE says they are doing, we can leave the useless enemy types on lower levels. Or perhaps even get rid of them. Seriously, a prod crewmen is a worthless enemy type. I cannot deny that.

I don't know what DE's engine is fully capable of. My hopes are that it can do this. Only DE knows whether or not something like this is possible; Which is why I have not put forth a lengthy demonstration of how to implement this idea. Because my demonstration may not work with their engine, it is up to DE to find a creative way to put this in the game. I simply wish to provide the thought or idea.

Not only that, but there's also the fact that such formations would be completely lost on... say, a Volt or Nova.

press 4 to disperse 

This is actually a solid point. There is a purpose to using certain abilities against formations. For instance, mag's pull could have a use against a shield wall.

Not all formations have to be tight groupings of enemies. Some can be spread out to counter things such as M-Prime.

What has the reply box done to my letters?! Replies have been copied in to OP for easier read.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Sophronius

[--Q--uaint]

This is actually a solid point. There is a purpose to using certain abilities against formations. For instance, mag's pull could have a use against a shield wall.

Not all formations have to be tight groupings of enemies. Some can be spread out to counter things such as M-Prime.

 

That still does nothing to address Volt, Rhino, and other such nukes. Mprime is only one 'frame, and (in my experience) she's not used a huge amount.

[.Czern]

Amazing idea.

[notionphil]

There is a purpose to using certain abilities against formations. For instance, mag's pull could have a use against a shield wall.

Not all formations have to be tight groupings of enemies. Some can be spread out to counter things such as M-Prime.

 

 

It would be great if a few particular powers had a specific use against a certain formation. However, in reality, every AoE power will have the same effect on every formation, which is to instantly destroy or dispurse them.

 

It's not just M-Prime. Its Overload, Miasma, Chaos, Absorb, Bastille, World on Fire, Fire Blast, Vortex, Tornado, Pull, Soundquake etc etc. Nearly every frame has a single button push which will totally negate any formation that enemies can be arranged in.

 

If the "formations" are not a semi-tight grouping, then what will be different from the player's perspective? A shield lancer here, 2 gunners there, a napalm up there, a scorpion behind this pillar. That is indistinguishable from a normal spawn.

 

So sure, a formation might look cool. But it will have no effect on gameplay, unless for some odd reason the entire group is OOP, which in the world of energy siphon and 25 cost ults, doesn't really happen. It will just mean the enemies die in nice organized rows; hey, at least the loot will be easier to pick up.

 

How can this be fixed? We need enemies that can confer power resistance (even if not 100%) in a small AoE around them. This is what mobs like Ancient Healers and Grineer Commanders should be doing instead of switch teleporting and "healing" units which are dead in one hit.

Edited June 10, 2014 by notionphil

[Sophronius]

It would be great if a few particular powers had a specific use against a certain formation. However, in reality, every AoE power will have the same effect on every formation, which is to instantly destroy or dispurse them.

 

It's not just M-Prime. Its Overload, Miasma, Chaos, Absorb, Bastille, World on Fire, Fire Blast, Vortex, Tornado, Pull, Soundquake etc etc. Nearly every frame has a single button push which will totally negate any formation that enemies can be arranged in.

 

If the "formations" are not a semi-tight grouping, then what will be different from the player's perspective? A shield lancer here, 2 gunners there, a napalm up there, a scorpion behind this pillar. That is indistinguishable from a normal spawn.

 

So sure, a formation might look cool. But it will have no effect on gameplay, unless for some odd reason the entire group is OOP, which in the world of energy siphon and 25 cost ults, doesn't really happen. It will just mean the enemies die in nice organized rows; hey, at least the loot will be easier to pick up.

 

How can this be fixed? We need enemies that can confer power resistance (even if not 100%) in a small AoE around them. This is what mobs like Ancient Healers and Grineer Commanders should be doing instead of switch teleporting and "healing" units which are dead in one hit.

This.

The formations would be a great idea, but I concur with what you are saying. Ults are ridiculous and nullify any attempt to make "better AI." Power Resistance sounds like an excellent solution.

Power resistance + "Formations" = better gameplay/AI?

[notionphil]

This.

The formations would be a great idea, but I concur with what you are saying. Ults are ridiculous and nullify any attempt to make "better AI." Power Resistance sounds like an excellent solution.

Power resistance + "Formations" = better gameplay/AI?

 

Yes, I believe the formula is something like

 

(((1 Cannon Fodder + .01 Power Resistant Protectors) * .2 Engaging Enemy Mechanics ) * Formations )/ more bad@ss Exemus = Much better gameplay

[Sitchrea]

Yes, I believe the formula is something like

 

(((1 Cannon Fodder + .01 Power Resistant Protectors) * .2 Engaging Enemy Mechanics ) * Formations )/ more bad@ss Exemus = Much better gameplay

With their ideas combined, they become CAPTAIN Pla - BETTER AI!

[unknow99]

Sophronius + notionphil = challenging enemies comeback. :)

[Pyriel.]

Improved AI is never a bad thing in my eyes, but this does make me wonder about exploitation.  If I'm not mistaken the tile generation and npc actions are "controlled" by the player chosen as host whent he game starts.  Would having an AI system with such a level of decision making (for lack of a better term) provide more opportunities to exploit it?

 

we dont see much exploitation of the npc ai at the moment (besides pathing of course), nor do i think this would be a big issue.  But its an issue that would have to be at least considered  *shrug*

[Clone154769]

The door opens and a hot laser rips casually dances from left to right bisecting the whole lot of Grineer in one fell swoop.


AI's typicaly dead before it can pull off any fancy moves, and most games where they try they spend more time fumbling  and bumbling into place then fighting.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Clone154769