A Conversation About Warframe Ability Cooldowns

[VioDuskar]

Hell no! 

[Warriorrogue]

Cooldowns were in the game. The end result was no.

[Digitalon]

The most stupid part about Cooldowns is that you can't use your abilities when you need them the most. And the second most stupidest part is that you can't use them more than once in a certain period of time. 

Example: Frost globe. Did your globe just got destroyed? Well TOO BAD, here's a cooldown even tho you have enough energy. Frost Globe essentially become useless, because you need to use it spontaneously, not periodically... but it's actually like that for every Warframe ability.  

I just want to point out that I was specifically talking about long cooldowns on ultimate abilities and short cooldowns on the other abilities. The primary goal of my post is trying to get people discussing options about ending ult spam that dominates so much of the game.

 

Cooldowns were in the game. The end result was no.

I wasn't around in the closed beta, exactly what happened to steer the devs away from a cooldown system?

[CaveCricket48]

I would prefer an eximus unit that makes nearby allies immune to CC (with the exception of things like knockback and physical stuns and the like).

 

 

And besides, we already have a cooldown, it's our energy limit. And those damn magnetic eximus units keep draining it...

[CaveCricket48]

I just want to point out that I was specifically talking about long cooldowns on ultimate abilities and short cooldowns on the other abilities. The primary goal of my post is trying to get people discussing options about ending ult spam that dominates so much of the game.

 

 

Forced cooldowns will limit the flexibility that warframe's ability system has, lessening possible builds. In fact, the lack of cooldowns is something I LIKE about its ability system.

 

 

Abilities need some balancing factor, but I don't think that cooldowns are the way to go.

[LukeAura]

I just want to point out that I was specifically talking about long cooldowns on ultimate abilities and short cooldowns on the other abilities. The primary goal of my post is trying to get people discussing options about ending ult spam that dominates so much of the game.

 

I wasn't around in the closed beta, exactly what happened to steer the devs away from a cooldown system?

Cooldowns are a terrible system due to the unpredictable nature of enemy spawns.  

To end ult spam you have to solve all the problems with the already superior system. 

Essentially it just forced people in to waiting in front of doors until cooldowns ended, picking off whatever wanderers came in to their tile, and then moving through. 

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Cool-downs were brought up a year ago. I don't see any cool-downs right now, and they've had a year to do it. I suppose they aren't adding that.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Well it's already obvious that there's a clear issue in power spam/overuse, however cooldowns just don't work out well for this type of game for the most part.  The only time cooldowns work well in fast paced games is when those cooldowns are really short, and have no energy pools to work with.  That being said this sort of issue is going to come to a head at some point so we do need more limiters working against us.

 

The Magnetic Eximus were a big step in the right direction although they could use a few small tweaks.  Ancient Disruptors are another really well designed foe.  If you're struck by an Ancient Disruptor it is entirely your fault (barring lag) so it isn't unfair in any way.  The Energy Leeching Eximus are also perfect examples of how to inhibit our energy pools.  I'm probably one of the few people who really dig Magnetic Eximus foes and see them as a good addition to this game.

 

We also could use Eximus foes who's ability is just straight ability immunity, and since there's already an aura functionality in place just have that immunity spread from said Eximus.  Once a player kills the Eximus they're good to go, but it does stop ability spam without hampering pacing.

[Sasquatchias]

I just want to point out that I was specifically talking about long cooldowns on ultimate abilities and short cooldowns on the other abilities. The primary goal of my post is trying to get people discussing options about ending ult spam that dominates so much of the game.

 

I wasn't around in the closed beta, exactly what happened to steer the devs away from a cooldown system?

 

Cooldowns were removed because they supposedly slowed down gameplay. In all actuality it was the players who would use their abilities and then stand in front of a door, refusing to move on until the cooldown was done that slowed down gameplay.

[Tulzscha]

Moved to the proper section.

[(PSN)TheShinigamiGod]

No because first we only have 4 abilities most builds only rely on two while most mmo have 10+ abilities that they can use at the same time hence why they have cooldown. Second most abilties that damage falls short on higher levels and lastly the game is mission based and linear while some mmos have an openworld so putting cooldowns will end up making it boring as hek.

[Irreverent]

 

Spamming powers is the thing that makes this game fun and frames unique.

[Vaskadar]

I wasn't around in the closed beta, exactly what happened to steer the devs away from a cooldown system?

 

One word: Pacing.

[WingsOfGryphin]

I just want to point out that I was specifically talking about long cooldowns on ultimate abilities and short cooldowns on the other abilities. The primary goal of my post is trying to get people discussing options about ending ult spam that dominates so much of the game.

 

I wasn't around in the closed beta, exactly what happened to steer the devs away from a cooldown system?

I also hate Ult spamming, but i don't want any cooldowns so that Utility based frames that need to use skills according to situation won't suffer.... Sometimes you need to cast spell 2 or 3 times in a 2 seconds ... sometimes once in 10 seconds. That's the beauty of energy system that allows you to stack up points and use your skills when you need them the most. 

I personally play as Rhino Prime + Latron Prime... while using Iron Skin and Roar as frame ability... not even touching Stomp. I prefer being Gunslinger than a player that presses 4 to clean rooms. 

Edited June 15, 2014 by WingsOfGryphin

[Tarille]

Cooldowns aren't a very good compromise with how the game is set up - ESPECIALLY not 3-4 minute cooldowns.

 

If abilities had cooldowns that were that long, you'd see people just skip them for the most part and build their frame with just defensive and utility mods instead - Since there'd be so little benefit from slotting that ability (Never mind the 3+ mods it can take to maximize its effectiveness), it'd be much better for people to go all gun-frame. Picking a Frame for either its looks or base stats and using no abilities and just running with OP guns like Ogris/BoltorP/Penta.

 

Yes, ability spamming can trivialize content, but due to how missions are set up (I.E. For non-campy gamemodes (Defence/MD/Survival) it's lots of consecutive rooms filled with enemies) the lack of cooldown is necessary to keep up with the pace of moving from room to room finding large quantities of enemies. Some frames are squishy without being able to use their powers for CC or for Damage - The only reason why spamming 4 to win is seen as a problem is because the level at which abilities seem to be balanced around (~50-60ish) is not attainable in non-endless modes.

 

Having cooldowns on abilities really cripples their usage and depending on the length of the cooldown can make abilities just flat out useless (For example Embers Accelerant is only useful because it can be used on every enemy group while tearing through them with Fireball spam or WoF spam - Without the ability to use those skills constantly, she'd be a really ineffective frame with no redeeming stats)

 

If you want to end the 4 spamming issue, then abilities and mods need to be overhauled so that it's possible to have 3-4 USEFUL skills at one time (Current system often ends up being "Mod for 1 ability to be maximized in effectiveness (Often ability 4) - Have other abilities be useless due to Corrupted Mods downsides")

 

Then of course a set level should be used for balancing, specifically a level found in the regular system (Such as level 30-35).

 

This would make ability spamming less of a concern because you'd be able to have 4 useful abilities at hand so will be able to actually choose the most useful power for the situation (Rather than spamming the 1 ability that's actually worth slotting because of how Corrupted Mods affect things) and it would also mean that people playing the regular system (Not just T3 Endless stuff) won't have to deal with powers that completely destroy everything in one go because of being balanced around higher level enemies.

 

True, the scaling abilities around a specific level also would need to happen for Weapons - Otherwise the whole gun-frame thing would still happen.

[VentiGlondi]

I support cooldowns. I absolutely despise the energy system.

But 3 minutes? Are you nuts?

 

Then my 20 energy radial disarm spam build wont work then whats point of loki? NOTHING! Plus it would have wasted hundred of rare 5 cores i have used and hours and days to make that build.

Boo-hoo. Tell that to Frost, Trinity and Nova players.

 

Giving cooldown to abilities would make power efficiency rather useless IMO.

That's the point, isn't it? Energy efficiency is the reason ults are being nerfed.

 

 

Essentially it just forced people in to waiting in front of doors until cooldowns ended, picking off whatever wanderers came in to their tile, and then moving through. 

That's because players needs to have an option to actively reduce the cooldown.

Like "Hey, if you kill some stuff with your sword, you're gonna be able to use your ult again sooner!"

That would work even better than "Hey, if you kill an enemy then you MAYBE will get more energy for more ults!"

Edited June 15, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[LukeAura]

That's because players needs to have an option to actively reduce the cooldown.

Like "Hey, if you kill some stuff with your sword, you're gonna be able to use your ult again sooner!"

That would work even better than "Hey, if you kill an enemy then you MAYBE will get more energy for more ults!"

It's still unpredictable when you're going to need abilities, and no amount of ways to decrease cooldown time will solve that. 

'sooner' isn't good enough if you need it once, and then again immediately after because you're facing swarms of high powered enemies constantly or in every room.

Imagine walking through the mystery shipment event with cooldowns. There is no time, at all, to use active cooldown recovery because of the sheer number of enemies you would find per room.

It'd be better to make guaranteed energy recovery a thing, but based on good usage of skills and remove Fleeting Expertise from the mod pool, than to make things shorten cooldown time. This would allow for spam if necessary, without making it effortless, and not forcing players in to situations where they need to wait for cooldowns to end on their powerful CC skills. This would also allow players to essentially 'chain' well timed abilities. 

Imagine it works likes this for an example, Rhino gains a little energy back for every foe he knocks over, or for using Iron Skin just as he takes a big hit/gets struck by a CC effect(I mean, that's what he always does in the trailers right? He doesn't use it at the start of a mission, he waits until the last second before getting blasted to use it). So if he charges at a high cluster of enemies, he may actually make energy off of that. If he's using it just to move faster he's burning it away. If he stomps in every room regardless of enemy numbers that will burn out his limited pool quickly, but if he needs to use it on two high enemy density rooms one after the other, he will be rewarded for that and encouraged to do so. This also allows him to make energy back with melee weapon slams and flying kicks, so even if he does waste all his energy he has non-ability methods of getting it back.

No arbitrary timer that doesn't account for random mission variables but also rewards skilled and properly timed uses of abilities. 

[VentiGlondi]

It's still unpredictable when you're going to need abilities, and no amount of ways to decrease cooldown time will solve that. 

'sooner' isn't good enough if you need it once, and then again immediately after because you're facing swarms of high powered enemies constantly or in every room.

Imagine walking through the mystery shipment event with cooldowns. There is no time, at all, to use active cooldown recovery because of the sheer number of enemies you would find per room.

It'd be better to make guaranteed energy recovery a thing, but based on good usage of skills and remove Fleeting Expertise from the mod pool, than to make things shorten cooldown time. This would allow for spam if necessary, without making it effortless, and not forcing players in to situations where they need to wait for cooldowns to end on their powerful CC skills. This would also allow players to essentially 'chain' well timed abilities. 

Imagine it works likes this for an example, Rhino gains a little energy back for every foe he knocks over, or for using Iron Skin just as he takes a big hit/gets struck by a CC effect(I mean, that's what he always does in the trailers right? He doesn't use it at the start of a mission, he waits until the last second before getting blasted to use it). So if he charges at a high cluster of enemies, he may actually make energy off of that. If he's using it just to move faster he's burning it away. If he stomps in every room regardless of enemy numbers that will burn out his limited pool quickly, but if he needs to use it on two high enemy density rooms one after the other, he will be rewarded for that and encouraged to do so. This also allows him to make energy back with melee weapon slams and flying kicks, so even if he does waste all his energy he has non-ability methods of getting it back.

No arbitrary timer that doesn't account for random mission variables but also rewards skilled and properly timed uses of abilities. 

Ability spam should never be necessary, especially considering how powerful the abilities are. It shouldn't even be a thing.

Abilities should be something to help you get out of a tight situation once in a while, not something to make the entire game easier.

 

There is no time, at all, to use active cooldown recovery because of the sheer number of enemies you would find per room.

Nope. That's exactly the situation you'd want to be in in order to use active cooldown recovery.

 

The thing you proposed achieves similar thing in a different way. It rewards skill with power.

Current problem is that instead of rewarding skillful play, it rewards grinding. You grinded, you got yourself fleeting expertise, now you can spam your powers forever.

You should be rewarded for going into the battle even if you can't use your abilities at the moment. Without power efficiency the current system kind of achieved that. But then again - IT'S RNG BASED. You need luck to get energy drops. So it's bad either way

[LukeAura]

Ability spam should never be necessary, especially considering how powerful the abilities are. It shouldn't even be a thing.

Abilities should be something to help you get out of a tight situation once in a while, not something to make the entire game easier.

 

Nope. That's exactly the situation you'd want to be in in order to use active cooldown recovery.

People like to use abilities, very few people actually want them to be things you use 'only when you really need them'. They're part of what make the game fun and need to be a central role to combat. Spamming them should be encouraged when necessary or when skillfully applied. 'Mage' combat, that's why we have frames that have been coined as 'casters'. What shouldn't be necessary is the spamming of the most powerful ability in a set to the neglect of all others.

I never said it wasn't. When you're surrounded, outgunned, and outmanned is when you want it, but can't have it because you can't act without the help of a powerful ability. Being constantly under all those conditions every time you move tiles just means slowing down gameplay. Or it makes the cooldown essentially meaningless as you're avoiding it. Cooldowns force people to play a certain way or 'with skill', every time you use that ability you have to perform the cooldown eliminating steps. Energy recovery encourages skill, but doesn't limit it to skill, you can still screw up or goof around if you're usually careful, you don't have to perform the 'good' way all the time, but it is better if you do. With my system you're fulfilling the expectation and earning a reward, which is good and makes people feel like they've accomplished something. Following similar actions to avoid cooldowns is escaping punishment, it's not as enjoyable. 

Edited June 15, 2014 by LukeAura

[CaveCricket48]

Ability spam should never be necessary, especially considering how powerful the abilities are. It shouldn't even be a thing.

Abilities should be something to help you get out of a tight situation once in a while, not something to make the entire game easier.

 

 

Guns are stronger than abilities, and we spam those all the time.

 

There are some people who want to play primarily with guns, others primarily with melee, and others primarily with abilities. Stop trying to limit the ways a player can play.

[VentiGlondi]

Guns are stronger than abilities, and we spam those all the time.

 

There are some people who want to play primarily with guns, others primarily with melee, and others primarily with abilities. Stop trying to limit the ways a player can play.

That comparison makes no sense.

Gun is a weapon. You use it to deal damage.

There is no way to play "primarily with abilities" in this game. That's like you tried to play a shooter using nothing but stun grenades.

 

 

What shouldn't be necessary is the spamming of the most powerful ability in a set to the neglect of all others.

Hey, that's exactly what I'm trying to achieve.

Edited June 15, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[LukeAura]

That comparison makes no sense.

Gun is a weapon. You use it to deal damage.

There is no way to play "primarily with abilities" in this game. That's like you tried to play a shooter using nothing but grenades.

That's his point exactly though.

People want ability focused play styles to be possible. They don't want mindless 4 spam. 

Grenades like flashbangs and incendiaries or actual explosive ones? Because a lot of shooters have AoE weaponry, and people do rely on it. The noob tube meme exists because of that.  

 

[VentiGlondi]

That's his point exactly though.

People want ability focused play styles to be possible. They don't want mindless 4 spam. 

Grenades like flashbangs and incendiaries or actual explosive ones? Because a lot of shooters have AoE weaponry, and people do rely on it. The noob tube meme exists because of that. 

I modified my post slightly. I was referring to abilities with utility more than anything.

 

The problems with energy system is actually more visible when it comes to damage abilities.

See, I could use shuriken four times, but that would cost me one bladestorm. So why would I use shuriken if I can kill more things for the same amount of energy with my ult? More things killed means more energy orbs and even more ults.

Now let's imagine there is no energy and instead shuriken has 2 second cooldown, while bladestorm has... idunno, 30?

First thing is that I can't spam my ult anymore. Second thing is that I can use shuriken without worrying that I might have potentially wasted an ult.

 

The idea of enemies droping orbs that you use for your abilities would be replaced by guaranteed cooldown reduction under certain conditions.

For instance, a successful hit with a shuriken could reduce cooldown on the other abilities by one or two seconds.

 

Now, I don't know what the cooldowns were like in closed beta, but if it was just "Hey, cooldowns! And you can't do anything about them!" then no wonder they changed it.

Edited June 15, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[LukeAura]

I modified my post slightly. I was referring to abilities with utility more than anything.

 

The problems with energy system is actually more visible when it comes to damage abilities.

See, I could use shuriken four times, but that would cost me one bladestorm. So why would I use shuriken if I can kill more things for the same amount of energy with my ult? More things killed means more energy orbs and even more ults.

Now let's imagine there is no energy and instead shuriken has 2 second cooldown, while bladestorm has... idunno, 30?

First thing is that I can't spam my ult anymore. Second thing is that I can use shuriken without worrying that I might have potentially wasted an ult.

So what if you end up in a situation where you need to use Bladestorm twice in a row? It's something that definitely can happen because of the number of horde mode game types. Or you waste it once and then you end up really needing it right after. 

Shuriken won't solve your problem in either situation. Even with instant cooldown and being able to throw shurikens as much as you want.

Shuriken needs to become a skill that has value in using it over bladestorm. Especially Because I have a gun, and Shuriken is just awful compared to a gun.  

Spamming Ults isn't necessarily a bad thing, spamming them when they aren't necessary is.

And like you said, you can create a very similar thing with a dynamic energy system, but a dynamic energy system is more rewarding. It makes players feel good about using their skills correctly, it makes using skills correctly be a reward in and of itself, and lets them be a little wasteful, but not constantly to the point it detriments the game.

[VentiGlondi]

So what if you end up in a situation where you need to use Bladestorm twice in a row? It's something that definitely can happen because of the number of horde mode game types. Or you waste it once and then you end up really needing it right after. 

Shuriken won't solve your problem in either situation. Even with instant cooldown and being able to throw shurikens as much as you want.

Shuriken needs to become a skill that has value in using it over bladestorm. Especially Because I have a gun, and Shuriken is just awful compared to a gun.  

Spamming Ults isn't necessarily a bad thing, spamming them when they aren't necessary is.

And like you said, you can create a very similar thing with a dynamic energy system, but a dynamic energy system is more rewarding. It makes players feel good about using their skills correctly, it makes using skills correctly be a reward in and of itself, and lets them be a little wasteful, but not constantly to the point it detriments the game.

Why did you just focus on the example I gave. That was just supposed to show you how cooldowns could both limit spamming and make other abilities more valuable.  There's more that could come out of that idea.

 

Shuriken needs to become a skill that has value in using it over bladestorm.

Normally the value would be "you can use it more often". But considering spammability is a thing, what other value could it have? It can't be as powerful, can it? Bladestorm is an ult after all.

 

So what if you end up in a situation where you need to use Bladestorm twice in a row?

How about using my other abilities? Like the one that makes me invisible.

I have a gun

Oh, and that works too.

Ults shouldn't be spammable, but should be strong enough that you don't have to use it twice in a row if you used it correctly.

Edited June 15, 2014 by VentiGlondi