Dear De, All I Want For U15 Is Polish.

[-skimmer-]

Well, they have to do this someday. +1

[-FV-Runehawk]

+1

You need to have a strong base before building atop it. Best to go back and repair the foundation before moving onto the fifteenth floor. 

[TonyFoot]

+1

You need to have a strong base before building atop it. Best to go back and repair the foundation before moving onto the fifteenth floor. 

 

QFT

 

+1 OP.

 

finally getting a general, over-arching balance pass and a mass-bug fix would really be a breath of fresh air.

[Vanadium]

  The question should be, can DE afford to scale back new content for polishing. In other words, how much is DE's revenue driven by introducing regular updates with new content?

 

How much of DEs broken content is killing its revenue by driving away new players (who give DE, y'know, money)?

 

Not trying to pick on you, your comment is just the most recent in the "New content = more money always" argument (I know you're not making the exact same point, but it's related). 

 

One of the most common criticisms of the game is Warframe is too buggy/not polished, along with "too much grind" (polishing the game implies fixing the grind, also).

 

If the initial gameplay isn't painfully punishing and rewards the player with solid progression, then new players are going to want to stay. It already takes weeks (at least) to get from 0 to 6 MR, when your 'frames start to become badass and OP, so new players are already stuck in the game for a long while. We have enough content now that new players have things to do for months and if they enjoy their time, they'll spend money.

 

The problem right now is that most of said content is so inconsistent/buggy that it's not enjoyable and the grind has never been so strong (even when you were doing 50+ runs to get Ash).

 

It's hard to remember the last time I even really played the game. Nevermind, I do. It was Mysterious Shipments. The Shipments were sufficiently challenging/rewarding (easy-to-kill/kills-you-easily mobs with big rewards at the end) and casually scheduled (1 every 3 hours for 1 1/2 hours) that I felt like I was actually playing the game again. During those alerts, my 600+ hours actually meant something, since the OPness of my guns/blades/Frames was justified and all the tooling around I did with the parkour system actually helped me not die. Now we have T4, which is the same (but in the Void), but T4 is there for RNG grind, which kind of takes the fun out of it.

 

There's a 'rest of the game' that I could play, but I've either played that content so much (because of grind) that it's not enjoyable or it's so inconsistent/buggy that I don't want to touch it (or it's Solar Rails, which I'm just not interested in).

 

The point is that an U15 completely (or mostly) devoted to polishing/bug-fixing/alleviating grind/improving-the-fundamentals-of-the-game/etc. would be something that would cater to veterans (making old content playable/enjoyable) and new players (a game that doesn't make you rage constantly from day 1).

 

+1, want this, signed, whatever. This game needs this badly. I don't care about "focus" and "lenses", I don't care about more factions, I don't care about new guns (unless they're like this Mutalist Quanta, which is pretty fun) I don't even care about lore reveals (I like how the game has remained mysterious and open to speculation, like that other place we go to; I think it's called "Outside") until the game gets a big fix. Not overhaul, no 2.0s (I do want some Parkour 2.0, though), just fixes and balances.

[ZyloWolfzan]

I really wonder anymore of DE actually LISTENS to the community. I'm sure they HEAR us, I'm sure they go through, and read a fair amount of the forums, but are they actually listening? Do they understand what people are saying? Do they get the concepts we're talking about? More and more I'm not so sure. Players have been asking DE to go back and balance weapons for a long, looooong time now. When was the last time they balanced a single, individual weapon? Not Damage 2.0, that was a broad sweep across the DAMAGE system. I mean when was the last time they went back to an individual weapon, and alter it in some way to change its effectiveness. Ignis maybe? Before that the AkMagnus, when they dropped the damage down a ton because it was considered stupidly OP. The Lato got nerfed, for some reason, but is that it? 3 weapons? How many other weapons have been changed?   I really can't remember any more than that.

 

signed it's almost depressing, listening to DE put their focus into so many things....that are not balance-focused, that are not polish on systems that CLEARLY need it.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[gavdl13]

lets hope they do it.!!!

[DoomsDayDan]

Polish is cool and all, but how is that gonna get people to buy plat?

People play the game, realize it's not severely broken on multiple levels, and go 'yeah sure i'll spend money on this'

[Renegade343]

The one thing I worry about is some people going back on what they said and crying, "Why is there no new weapon in these updates?".

 

And then the forums will be littered with whining types of threads all over again. 

Edited June 23, 2014 by Renegade343

[ZyloWolfzan]

The one thing I worry about is some people going back on what they said and crying, "Why is there no new weapon in these updates?".

 

And then the forums will be littered with whining types of threads all over again. 

And that's different from everyone whining about Nova or the Soma being OP how? It's an online forum, there will always be people whining about something.

 

signed fact of life unfortunately.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[Renegade343]

And that's different from everyone whining about Nova or the Soma being OP how? It's an online forum, there will always be people whining about something.

 

signed fact of life unfortunately.

Zylo the Wolfbane

Because sometimes, I just want to live in a world where everyone is rational and keeps their word (not that it is going to happen in my lifetime, but still...). 

 

And for the record, whining about Nova and Soma being OP is different to whining on an update dedicated to bug-fixes that the whining people first wanted to have (I do not really like people going back on their words, unless there is a very good reason). 

Edited June 23, 2014 by Renegade343

[Zaresin]

I am all for dedicating a complete update cycle to increased AI difficulty, Mod Balancing (either make serration and hornet strike like an aura mod slot or innate), balance pass of weapons (spectra says FIX ME DAMMIT), and overall I just want to see difficulty back into the game similar to how the new ospreys offer a new level of difficulty for the easiest faction in the game (thank god infested was so freaking boring).  I don't want enemies with more health and armor, I want them to be smarter and actually try to overwhelm me not be bullet sponges.  Shooting something full of bullets is NOT hard, its tedious and boring.  Lure us into a choke point and carpet bomb the s**t out of us, something anything.  Right now we just have what resembles old british style warfare where people just line up and trade fire, there is nothing exciting nor fun about it.  

[ZyloWolfzan]

Because sometimes, I just want to live in a world where everyone is rational and keeps their word (not that it is going to happen in my lifetime, but still...). 

 

And for the record, whining about Nova and Soma being OP is different to whining on an update dedicated to bug-fixes that the whining people first wanted to have (I do not really like people going back on their words, unless there is a very good reason). 

Well I have the same wishes you do friend, unfortunately they don't come true. And I agree, that whining about Soma and Nova being OP is different from whining about a dedicated Polishing update, but it's still most certainly whining. And sadly it will never stop.

 

signed still, I think an update dedicated to JUST polish would be well-recieved by everyone.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[Loswaith]

+10, they mentioned the polish updated what back for update 9?, sure alot of major changes since then have happened but dont look like any major changes are in the immediate future so now is a good point to firm up the base especially with them looking at PvEvP.

 

+1 but...

 

DEvs kinda coded themselves into a corner when they released the game so early. Now they MUST focus on new content to keep the players playing and paying. They don't really have the time to go back and polish older stuff

They likely have a huge input of cash stored up already, but the simple factor is if people feel happy with the game and its not buggy they are more inclined to spend money becuse the thought is your paying for a quality product (people might pay for something thats ok, but wont be as inclined to pay for it).

 

Also you cant build a good house on broken foundations. Warframe needs that good foundation, as the game is noticably saging in places due to those poor foundations.   Sooner or later the game will get to big to actually fix the foundations (it may actually be already).

 

Eairly on in warframe the gameplay felt alot more cohesive and less clunky (for lack of a better word).  Things like parcore, loot pickpus, weapon choice/balance/tiering alll felt alot less hap hazard and more playable.

 

Many times DE mentions new users being friends of veterans, well if the vererans go due to the lack of polish, there is no one to bring in more people (new players simply arent invesded enough), infact those vets are likely to tell their friends or interested parties not to bother.

 

At the end of the day DE really has to ask themselves, is it better to try and keep new people with the updates (that generally just show us more grind) or actually polish it up and something those that have left return to, gain new players that actually want to play or we hastle friends to actually play (be they new or returning vets).

Edited June 23, 2014 by Loswaith

[CaptainJohnson]

Anyone who thinks that updating old content would somehow make DE a comparable amount of money to releasing new content must be extremely naive. For one, nobody is going to spend platinum on old weapons that have gotten an overhaul, that much should be obvious. Many players already have these older weapons, and most of them have become a dime-a-dozen because they've been out for so long. That's the case with even some of the older Prime weapons. Releasing a "U15 Bundle" with the refurbished weapons might make them some plat, but probably a good deal less than what they could make from new cosmetic bundles, new weapon releases, new frames, and stuff like that. It may seem short-termed, but even in economics you have to consider BOTH the short-term and the long-term, and if DE were to suddenly cut off their short-term revenues for future profits (which may or may not be real), the immediate quality of the product would suffer.

 

The long and short of it is that unless they come up with a new way to make profits, they need to continue releasing new content. Perhaps they don't need to do so every week, but they can't just forgo new content entirely to balance older content. So even if I agreed with the sentiments of this thread, it just doesn't make any practical sense for DE. 

 

That isn't to say that I think they need to ignore older content entirely.

 

In the most recent Devstream, they mentioned that after U14 hits, they'll go back to some of the earlier content and adjust the balance on Oberon and Sniper Rifles in general, which is the direction they really need to go. With every week's mini-update, they should focus on a new, focused area of older content and balance it while creating newer, innovative content- that new content could even tie in with the balancing of older content. If they were to buff Sniper Rifles, for example, they could also add a new Sniper Rifle to the current pool to satisfy newer and older players alike.

 

This is essentially what they've been doing with balancing on some of the older frames like Trinity and Nova, just a little more focused on the weapons and mods and other gear that hasn't been looked at for a while. What can I say, though-- I like the feeling of new gear, new material, new weapons. It feels good to experiment with something that's fresh, something that hasn't been rehashed and had its DPS calculated to its max and have been forma'd thrice by a million players already.

 

It's admittedly a selfish desire, but I think that new content is what makes Warframe continue to be dynamic and exciting and keeps me coming back over and over again like older content can't. I think that there are plenty who share my opinion.

[Renegade343]

Anyone who thinks that updating old content would somehow make DE a comparable amount of money to releasing new content must be extremely naive. For one, nobody is going to spend platinum on old weapons that have gotten an overhaul, that much should be obvious. Many players already have these older weapons, and most of them have become a dime-a-dozen because they've been out for so long. That's the case with even some of the older Prime weapons. Releasing a "U15 Bundle" with the refurbished weapons might make them some plat, but probably a good deal less than what they could make from new cosmetic bundles, new weapon releases, new frames, and stuff like that. It may seem short-termed, but even in economics you have to consider BOTH the short-term and the long-term, and if DE were to suddenly cut off their short-term revenues for future profits (which may or may not be real), the immediate quality of the product would suffer.

 

The long and short of it is that unless they come up with a new way to make profits, they need to continue releasing new content. Perhaps they don't need to do so every week, but they can't just forgo new content entirely to balance older content. So even if I agreed with the sentiments of this thread, it just doesn't make any practical sense for DE. 

 

That isn't to say that I think they need to ignore older content entirely.

 

In the most recent Devstream, they mentioned that after U14 hits, they'll go back to some of the earlier content and adjust the balance on Oberon and Sniper Rifles in general, which is the direction they really need to go. With every week's mini-update, they should focus on a new, focused area of older content and balance it while creating newer, innovative content- that new content could even tie in with the balancing of older content. If they were to buff Sniper Rifles, for example, they could also add a new Sniper Rifle to the current pool to satisfy newer and older players alike.

 

This is essentially what they've been doing with balancing on some of the older frames like Trinity and Nova, just a little more focused on the weapons and mods and other gear that hasn't been looked at for a while. What can I say, though-- I like the feeling of new gear, new material, new weapons. It feels good to experiment with something that's fresh, something that hasn't been rehashed and had its DPS calculated to its max and have been forma'd thrice by a million players already.

 

It's admittedly a selfish desire, but I think that new content is what makes Warframe continue to be dynamic and exciting and keeps me coming back over and over again like older content can't. I think that there are plenty who share my opinion.

Thus, in conjunction to the polishing/bugfixing/balancing update, DE could release a cosmetic item or two bi-weekly so that it can cover a bit of the costs involved with running such an update. 

 

After all, a polishing update will bring in more revenue in the long run (it is just harming short-term revenue). 

[CaptainJohnson]

-snip-

 

I don't see how a bi-weekly cosmetic item would cover the same costs as that same cosmetic item AND another weapon or two that would come out in the same time. It just wouldn't be comparable, and like I mentioned in the post, harming short-term revenue is extremely dangerous. You don't even have any solid evidence that a polishing update will bring in more long-term revenue other than bits and pieces of conjecture. How much long-term revenue will it really bring in? Would it be any more than what smaller polishings might otherwise do, but over a longer span of time?

 

It's just really shaky, especially when we're unaware of DE's profits and exactly what their revenue figures are. I'm not sure they should really reveal those things to us, either, especially considering how incredibly self-entitled the forums can get. Asking for extra polish and rebalancing of older content is one thing, but asking them to change their formula for revenue-making is something else entirely.

 

Overall, the claim that focusing 100% (or nearly 100%) on polishing old content will earn them more revenue is a giant [CITATIONS NEEDED]. More than just conjecture, that's a claim that needs definitive proof and numbers backing it up, otherwise, it makes more sense for DE to continue using it's successful formula than to follow a random claim from a thread on their forums about how they should do business.

[Renegade343]

I don't see how a bi-weekly cosmetic item would cover the same costs as that same cosmetic item AND another weapon or two that would come out in the same time. It just wouldn't be comparable, and like I mentioned in the post, harming short-term revenue is extremely dangerous. You don't even have any solid evidence that a polishing update will bring in more long-term revenue other than bits and pieces of conjecture. How much long-term revenue will it really bring in? Would it be any more than what smaller polishings might otherwise do, but over a longer span of time?

 

It's just really shaky, especially when we're unaware of DE's profits and exactly what their revenue figures are. I'm not sure they should really reveal those things to us, either, especially considering how incredibly self-entitled the forums can get. Asking for extra polish and rebalancing of older content is one thing, but asking them to change their formula for revenue-making is something else entirely.

 

Overall, the claim that focusing 100% (or nearly 100%) on polishing old content will earn them more revenue is a giant [CITATIONS NEEDED]. More than just conjecture, that's a claim that needs definitive proof and numbers backing it up, otherwise, it makes more sense for DE to continue using it's successful formula than to follow a random claim from a thread on their forums about how they should do business.

I explicitly stated "cover a bit of the costs", which does not equate to "fully covering the costs of the update". 

 

I do understand that there will be a loss in revenue, but a bi-weekly release of one to two cosmetic items would just help to cushion the blow a bit. 

 

And it is just for one update, not for two to three consecutive updates. If it was two to three consecutive updates, then it will surely eat away DE's revenue and retained profit, but one update just for polishing would just eat away less. After all, taking a risk in business can lead to better rewards, and given the risk vs. reward of this proposal, the reward (solid core gameplay allowing new and existing players to be attracted to the game for a longer time) is enough to justify the risks (potential loss of players). 

[ZyloWolfzan]

I explicitly stated "cover a bit of the costs", which does not equate to "fully covering the costs of the update". 

 

I do understand that there will be a loss in revenue, but a bi-weekly release of one to two cosmetic items would just help to cushion the blow a bit. 

 

And it is just for one update, not for two to three consecutive updates. If it was two to three consecutive updates, then it will surely eat away DE's revenue and retained profit, but one update just for polishing would just eat away less. After all, taking a risk in business can lead to better rewards, and given the risk vs. reward of this proposal, the reward (solid core gameplay allowing new and existing players to be attracted to the game for a longer time) is enough to justify the risks (potential loss of players). 

Honestly, at this point the risk of doing an entire update focused on polishing isn't actually loss of players. Yes, they will lose some money in plat sales, I never claimed they wouldn't. But an entire update of Polish would not just keep players interested, it would convince some veteren players to bring in even more people to the newly re-balanced game, it could bring back people who left BECAUSE of the imbalance, and these people may have been gone for a long while, and see all the items that have been released that they don't have, and therefore spend money on platinum to get them.

 

@CaptainJohnson- You say that people won't buy old weapons, but I actually disagree. Especially if this update had solid balancing of weaponry, as I said above, returning players would come in and see many weapons that they haven't been around for, and want to buy them, new players brought in thanks to word of the balance changes will see things they like and buy them, and even veteren players, many of whom have probably sold quite a few of the weapons that would receive such changes, might consider buying them straight out to try out the changes on Day 1 of the update. I think you underestimate the impatience that many people have wanting to try out the new stuff, even if it's not exactly new, just re-balanced. Also consider the people who will buy things like Affinity boosters, Catalysts, and Forma to put into the newly balanced weapons, which will come from newer, AND older players.

 

signed overall I still believe that a minor loss in revenue by not releasing new things will be made up for in a large burst when the update is released, and a much heavier flow of revenue in the future from both new, and old players.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[Renegade343]

Honestly, at this point the risk of doing an entire update focused on polishing isn't actually loss of players. Yes, they will lose some money in plat sales, I never claimed they wouldn't. But an entire update of Polish would not just keep players interested, it would convince some veteren players to bring in even more people to the newly re-balanced game, it could bring back people who left BECAUSE of the imbalance, and these people may have been gone for a long while, and see all the items that have been released that they don't have, and therefore spend money on platinum to get them.

People who continue to play this game because of the weekly additions will have a very high chance to leave this game if this proposal is executed (which constitutes quite a bit of the player base), thus it can be considered as a risk.

 

In business decision-making, all points of risk and reward must be considered before deciding what to do (e.g.: Using Lewin's Force Field Analysis to spot most of, if not all of, the risks [restraining forces] and the rewards [driving forces] and seeing which force is larger overall). 

Edited June 23, 2014 by Renegade343

[ZyloWolfzan]

People who continue to play this game because of the weekly additions will have a very high chance to leave this game if this proposal is executed (which constitutes quite a bit of the player base), thus it can be considered as a risk.

 

In business decision-making, all points of risk and reward must be considered before deciding what to do (e.g.: Using Lewin's Force Field Analysis to spot most of, if not all of, the risks [restraining forces] and the rewards [driving forces] and seeing which force is larger overall). 

I'm not so sure. Most of the players who keep playing the game for the weekly additions are veterens of the game who have been playing for a very long time, and have therefore seen all the the problems with Warframe. I think that most, if not all of these people would gladly and willingly trade a few weapons lost in exchange for full focus on polish.

 

signed but it's hard to get a gauge on that of course, difficult to tell these days who are veterens, and just who have gotten the OP loadouts and are just waiting for the next OP to come out.

Zylo the Wolfbane

[DoomsDayDan]

I'd rather people complain about not getting new shiny things to throw money at than about broken, unpolished or unbalanced content

[Acegikmo]

I don't think DE will go back and polish anything until endgame content comes out to distract us and keep us busy piling another few hundred hours into the game so they have breathing room to stop making new events and go back to flesh out all the older content. Though with U14 adding player ships and pets, there are a lot more cosmetics DE could make revolving around those people who want to look cooler than everyone else with a decked out ship and armored up kubrow. They should be able to make a pretty penny with U14. If anything, they could focus on polish for U15 while adding a few new cosmetics every week or so. Might actually tide them over money-wise.

[CosyPigeon]

I concur OP. 

[CaptainJohnson]

-snip-

 

People are going to be far more impatient to wait for new weaponry than old. Half the players wouldn't bother with rebalanced content, and the other half probably has the weapon already, or will simply nab it for creds and a few resources. I have no doubt that players are impatient, but there's no way there'd be even nearly as many people buying those old weapons for platinum. It just doesn't make any sense to, and I really can't see how you would think otherwise. Your argument has gone in circles.

 

Stop trying to say that you speak for "most, if not all" veterans, and then point fingers and try to say that some people are just looking for the next OP weapon. Some people who like new weapons just like them because they're interesting to try out, not some weird reason for grabbing everything that's OP. You're strawmanning a position that hasn't even come up yet.

 

This thread continues to be simple conjecture and wishful thinking without understanding any sort of nuance that DE uses to make its decisions. For reasons stated before, it does not make sense for them to stop releasing new content for this shiny "polish" update. I want them to go back and rebalance old content too, but it's ridiculous to ask them to change their methodology for it.

 

People continue to say that it will increase "long-term revenue" but still don't show any numbers of figures to back their claims up. Who will DE listen to, a handful of disgruntled vets on the forums, or people who use numbers and figures to suggest what they should do? I think the choice is obvious.

 

/ollies outtie

[Renegade343]

People continue to say that it will increase "long-term revenue" but still don't show any numbers of figures to back their claims up. Who will DE listen to, a handful of disgruntled vets on the forums, or people who use numbers and figures to suggest what they should do? I think the choice is obvious.

You do not have to use financial numbers and figures to suggest what they should do (case in point with my point about using Lewin's Force Field Analysis to do a qualitative/quantitative hybrid breakdown of the driving forces and restraining forces of this decision [in which financial numbers and figures are not required for this]. It is easy to construct, and can give a good picture of whether or not to go ahead with the decision. Of course, one must also consider the drawbacks of using such a method [somewhat subjective in terms of risk/reward weighting], and acknowledge it). 

 

Of course, increasing "long-term revenue" is the goal for this, so I do not see a problem, but just needs an analysis to see if the decision actually does so (which would require other tools, such as the Decision Tree tool).