Infested Defense = Stunlock Stupidity

[LongDraw]

Or as has been stated more times than I can count now, just stand on a big box and shoot enemies as they appear. None of the Infested can hurt you there, they normally can't even knock you back when they explode from up there. Plus, the exploders tend to just stand around crying below you when you stand up there. So stop the whining about stun already.

[Drusus]

Is there any reason we don't simply have a Mod to install for Stun resist, Stun Redux or Recovery accelleration?

More options to slot in our warframes is only a good thing and to be honest, I sympathize with both sides here.

The degree of stunlock can be punitive just as there are indeed ways around it, most of the time. However, there are 'omg we're boned' moments such as coming off an elevator or unable to move past a choke point, and in those scenarios some options for mitigation are welcome.

Just leave it up to our choice of implementation and everyone wins?

[LongDraw]

Well, the way I see it, and probably most others that aren't moaning about stun-lock, is that there are melee weapons that do as much, if not more, damage as the best ammo-based weapons. Thing is, melee doesn't use ammo. So how do you balance it? Stun, shield damage, HP loss, knock-back, etc. Don't be fooled into thinking that these systems are in place for realism. They are here to balance the capabilities of all weapon systems and frames and enemies yada yada yada.

[Somtaaw]

Greetings fellow Tenno brothers and sisters...

The infested aren't that tricky to fight, if you use your full sense of direction and elevation. Ranged weapons exist for a reason besides the obvious 'pray and spray' method of taking out targets. Shooting wisely and selectively to take up the "runners" before moving on to leapers or Ancient healers could safe some time. If you feel that you must melee them, run straight past the suicide bombing runners, slide, and avoid the 'stun' by sliding out of their explosion radious. And about the "Energy needs". Equip your warframe with fusion slots that allow for a greater energy-supply? I can hold around 200 energy and do MAG's uber twice in a row, which neutralizes most targets at lvl 15 infestation in a single shot. The same applies for Corpus or Grineer. And I do love to 'circle' a large area to gather the enemy forces in, before jumping in the fray and risking a suicide uber on my part.

Alot of Tenno I see in random games, tend to melee 'everything' and discard their guns all together. Only to need reviving every so often. Another option, is to ask for a Trinity to join you and help with healing and buffering your survival odds. (Which makes the Supportive Tenno warframes, more practical.)

I'm not up to reduce stun duration or animations. Think carefully about what you choose to do. Wall grab, wall run, or wall slide and shoot your target. Slide past and through the hordes. And use the combined firepower of a 'team' to bring down the enemy if they manage to 'swamp' you.

There's Melee, Pistol and Rifle's for a reason. You are not 'bound' just to shoot, or melee. And if you do intend to just melee, make sure to kit out your warframe with the propper modules to 'support' your own shields and life to 'take' a beating.

Just a Trinity, sharing it's view here.

[LongDraw]

Greetings fellow Tenno brothers and sisters...

The infested aren't that tricky to fight, if you use your full sense of direction and elevation. Ranged weapons exist for a reason besides the obvious 'pray and spray' method of taking out targets. Shooting wisely and selectively to take up the "runners" before moving on to leapers or Ancient healers could safe some time. If you feel that you must melee them, run straight past the suicide bombing runners, slide, and avoid the 'stun' by sliding out of their explosion radious. And about the "Energy needs". Equip your warframe with fusion slots that allow for a greater energy-supply? I can hold around 200 energy and do MAG's uber twice in a row, which neutralizes most targets at lvl 15 infestation in a single shot. The same applies for Corpus or Grineer. And I do love to 'circle' a large area to gather the enemy forces in, before jumping in the fray and risking a suicide uber on my part.

Alot of Tenno I see in random games, tend to melee 'everything' and discard their guns all together. Only to need reviving every so often. Another option, is to ask for a Trinity to join you and help with healing and buffering your survival odds. (Which makes the Supportive Tenno warframes, more practical.)

I'm not up to reduce stun duration or animations. Think carefully about what you choose to do. Wall grab, wall run, or wall slide and shoot your target. Slide past and through the hordes. And use the combined firepower of a 'team' to bring down the enemy if they manage to 'swamp' you.

There's Melee, Pistol and Rifle's for a reason. You are not 'bound' just to shoot, or melee. And if you do intend to just melee, make sure to kit out your warframe with the propper modules to 'support' your own shields and life to 'take' a beating.

Just a Trinity, sharing it's view here.

OMG! Where have you been all my life?! I love circling the hordes while my sentinel &!$$es them off. Then when I've got as many as I can collect.. BOOOOOOM! Hit my Ultimate and watch the presents come raining down :D :D :D :D :D It's even more priceless when I can get a really tight grouping and I end up fully charged on energy before I can move after performing my Ultimate LOL!

[ultratacofish]

Ive found that Infested defense if you arent playing a tanky class like rhino who has immunity to those annoying stuns is harder but the reality is that by yourself you are stuck between defending and killing those annoying distorters who steal all your energy. What Ive found is much better is using a shotgun, this game is about building against the enemy type and ive found a shotgun with freeze + using dodge rolls much easier and I barely ever get stun locked. Most defenses I lose because of the small dog like adds killing the warframe when im disracted with the big guys. Overall you cant just use a bow or whatever in defense if you plan to get past wave 10-15. Infested stun lock doesnt need a nerf because it is what adds a challenge to them. If you think about it a guy hitting you constantly is going to stun you if not that is stupid and if stun is removed from the infested they will be even more of a joke.

[Elhazzared]

Ive found that Infested defense if you arent playing a tanky class like rhino who has immunity to those annoying stuns is harder but the reality is that by yourself you are stuck between defending and killing those annoying distorters who steal all your energy. What Ive found is much better is using a shotgun, this game is about building against the enemy type and ive found a shotgun with freeze + using dodge rolls much easier and I barely ever get stun locked. Most defenses I lose because of the small dog like adds killing the warframe when im disracted with the big guys. Overall you cant just use a bow or whatever in defense if you plan to get past wave 10-15. Infested stun lock doesnt need a nerf because it is what adds a challenge to them. If you think about it a guy hitting you constantly is going to stun you if not that is stupid and if stun is removed from the infested they will be even more of a joke.

This actually is true not just for the infested, this is true for all factions. Remove stun and they become jokes.

You see people complaining about the permastuns and what really bothers me in it is that they let themselfs into that situation. These are the kind of people who often stand around just shooting and expect the enemy to stay the hell back and hell if someone even has a ranged stun cause the end of the world.

I felt for the first time ever a small degree of dificulty today as I did an assassination alert and that only happened cause I'm sure the target of the assassination was extremely high leveled, even my AFuris were doing little damage to him (Well damage was about normal, his life pool was just incredibly high). Imanaged to run out of bullets for both that and the braton but the braton was still leveling up. Let's not forget the whole time there was a loki invisible clawing him to death although yeah, not his best mellee weapon... It was sligthly satisfying however I do know that once I better my weapons this won't be a problem again.

People need to start using their head when going into fights, the game doesn't has a great amount of complexity, a little bit of common sense is all that it's needed to basicly win every mission (Ok you'll need one or two people to do mobile defenses but that's the exception).

[LordLokai]

There is a counter move, it's called not everyone being on the floor. Have everyone start on boxes to shoot the runners, then move down and gather all the enemies together and everyone does their ultimates at one time. Wam bam thank ya mam!

so you are saying " hey guys lets abuse the busted AI so they break and wont attack us" this is my issue with the infested right now, they have a bajillion stunlocks, and only way to deal with it at most times, is to abuse the crappy AI. If the AI was working right chargers would charge boxes,, ancients would just smash you of of them, and climb up after you...idea that a box makes them go dumb and stand around while you shoot them all down is RIDICULOUS!

1: fix the crappy AI!

2: tone back all this stupid stunlocking bull

[Synapse_X]

I hate to say it but this is mostly a "learn to play" issue.

You have slides, rolls, dodges, backflips and blocks; use them. If you are getting overwhelmed dont stick around, spam that roll button and get the hell out of there. Sure this is more difficult in enclosed areas, but every room you go into you should have an escape route planned if things go bad. I know it sounds stupid but the first step to avoid getting overwhelmed into a stunlock, is avoid situations that will lead you into getting overwhelmed.

I see so many bad players just standing there full autoing their rifle against a charging horde until its too late for them to escape... dont be this idiot, play tactically.

[MJ12]

so you are saying " hey guys lets abuse the busted AI so they break and wont attack us" this is my issue with the infested right now, they have a bajillion stunlocks, and only way to deal with it at most times, is to abuse the crappy AI. If the AI was working right chargers would charge boxes,, ancients would just smash you of of them, and climb up after you...idea that a box makes them go dumb and stand around while you shoot them all down is RIDICULOUS!

1: fix the crappy AI!

2: tone back all this stupid stunlocking bull

People really don't get, for some reason, that if you're playing the game by hiding on top of boxes you've tacitly admitted that the Infested are unfun or actively frustrating to fight. For some odd reason. I mean, you've admitted that you think cheesing an enemy design bug (that being the Infested have no way of attacking you if you sit on a box) is preferable to challenging them mano a mano. Look, the only kind of game where that should be considered a legitimate strategy is a survival horror game where you're supposed to be this powerless guy who needs to do desperate, cowardly things like that to survive.

So yes, I agree. Fix the fact that Infested can be cheesed via boxes and then tone down the fact that playing them is an exercise in frustration even when they're not at all difficult.

[Ced23Ric]

Heh. I love seeing this topic pop up again and again. Considering the almost flamewar we had on it before, it's good to see that the newer players feel what we discusses months ago, too.

[Mourn]

I actually like getting mobbed by Infested. Mmm...Gram goodness.

[stacey69]

this is just a learn to play issue and i dont mean any offence by saying that. i played a lot of infested defence and got used to their movements quickly. basic things like if you see 2-3 dogs running at you with 3-4 suiciders you know how many you can dps before you start getting stun locked. if you cant kill them all run away. use frost on an auto rifle or pistol and spray frost on them as they run at you. then go into melee charge but everytime you connect you move back a few feet as the dogs will pounce if you didnt kill it or another was close. you get an in out in out pattern to your melee combat.

dont stand on the cyro unit ever on infested defence. get 1 person to keep an eye on it and the other 3 play outside the area. spray frost and nuke the trash dogs and suiciders down then you can take your time on the ancients. if you run into packs of infested mashing your melee button youll get stun locked. learn to charge attack and find a weapon with a speed and range that suits your style of play.

kill order is dogs. then move in to suiciders and move out so you set their explode timer off and they do no damage or stun you. then posion ancients are a must remove. then take your pick between healers and interupters.

to kill dogs spray with frost. charge attack forwards and move backwards as soon as the charge finishes and your doggie is dead or about to jump at you and stun you. rinse and repeat.

suiciders move into them and move away from them. set their timers so they explose while your out of range. or just mod your gun so you can kill them:)

ancients. run at them then run away so you avoid their punch that will floor you. once they have done this move move back in and nuke but try to always be behind them if possible. DONT spam the melee button. learn to charge attack or you will always find infected hard.

if you cant 1 shot dogs or suiciders and cant kill ancients within 3-4 blows your on the wrong difficulty, to many waves or your undergeared. we go wave 35 on xini and its a cakewalk if not an ammo drain and boring.

Weapons: Boltor and Akbolto and Heat swords. Only use frost. The dogs resist 25% of elements and the ancients resist 95% of elements so those fire and lighting mods are useless. Frost you only need a basic no notch card for the slow effect. Dropping these other mods allows you to go with other mods you dont need for basic mission types.

Mods: more ammo and a bigger mag clip. reload speed. speed on weapon if your dps is to low. dont use armor pen with these guns its pointless as bolts ignore armor anyway. only use crit and crit damn if your using speed mods. upgrade serrarion and hornet strike and multishot as high as your credits will allow. these are much bigger upgrades than elemental mods because elemental mods are a percentage of your weapon damage + serration/hornet strike. Punture/Seeker mods are brilliant for infested. they all stand together or run at you in lines. this will double or maybe triple your damage if you position yourself correctly to how the mobs are running at you or standing together.

Dont use bullet guns. If you only have bullet guns you have to either aim for the head or lower leg/feet of ancients to do any damage. this is annoying when theres a lot happening on screen. its easier to use bolt weapons and aim at the chest to do max damage. Aim for the head whenever you can on ancients and youll do 2x damage on them.

Dont bother farming to wave 35 and onwards. when you reach wave 25 the mobs level is around 84 and they will take a while to kill unless you have uber mods. after wave 25 you get less spawns for some reason. by wave 35 we have only around 10 spawns but they were level 125 and took a while to kill. for a wave 25 run we got 50+ mods. for a wave 35 run we got average 59 mods each. for the extra time farming the high level mobs it wasnt worth it. run to 15/20 or 25 if you can and then leave and reenter or go farm some credits on normal missions:)

Infested are my favorite because it takes a little skill to kill them when they are higher level and lots of them. the skill comes in not getting stun locked and dying, killing nasty ones like dogs and poison ancients quickly. managing your power so its not robbed by interupters. i use my ash a lot and i can spam bladestorm 3/4 times on the trot before i even go into the fight. using your specials to cull the trash before you start on the ancients is fun and very important.

hope some of this helped and i dont come accross as a big head or elitist. just passing on stuff i learnt by playing lots on xini:)

[Xtorma]

It only really ticks me off when I am going up an elevator and there is a horde waiting at the top. This is just extremly hard to deal with as the runners and dogs are right there and they begin to stun before you can hit a key. There should be diminishing returns, stun locking has never been a good game mechanic.

[Foxxar]

There desperately either needs to be a stun nerf or a WF mod that reduces knockback and stun.

[Elhazzared]

so you are saying " hey guys lets abuse the busted AI so they break and wont attack us" this is my issue with the infested right now, they have a bajillion stunlocks, and only way to deal with it at most times, is to abuse the crappy AI. If the AI was working right chargers would charge boxes,, ancients would just smash you of of them, and climb up after you...idea that a box makes them go dumb and stand around while you shoot them all down is RIDICULOUS!

1: fix the crappy AI!

2: tone back all this stupid stunlocking bull

People really don't get, for some reason, that if you're playing the game by hiding on top of boxes you've tacitly admitted that the Infested are unfun or actively frustrating to fight. For some odd reason. I mean, you've admitted that you think cheesing an enemy design bug (that being the Infested have no way of attacking you if you sit on a box) is preferable to challenging them mano a mano. Look, the only kind of game where that should be considered a legitimate strategy is a survival horror game where you're supposed to be this powerless guy who needs to do desperate, cowardly things like that to survive.

So yes, I agree. Fix the fact that Infested can be cheesed via boxes and then tone down the fact that playing them is an exercise in frustration even when they're not at all difficult.

When are you people going to get it in your hard heads that it isn't a freaking bug. Have you seen the size of a box? Have you actually taken a second your your precious time to actually compare the size of a box to your tenno? If you have you'll reach the conclusion that a tenno can (thanks to his suit) jump as high as his own heigh (Shall we say roughly 1.80M basing on the size of an actually human since they are about the size of a grineer). So, you're saying that enemies who have nothing to actually assist them jumping should effectivelly jump as high (Actually, those runners with blue eyes will jump you even if you are on top of the box because they are specificly designed to it and it is rather realistic)? Now more often than not a box will not protect you from attacks, you need at least 2 boxes high or something that is at least higher than 1 box (the exploding runners will explode at just a box height). Even 2 boxes high the ancients will attack you because guess what? They have enough range to attack you.

Learn this is not AI breakdown, it is not a bug. The game AI is designed so that an enemy will only attack if it could realisticly attack you. Meaning, enemies will not mellee you if they are not in mellee range, they will not shoot you if they don't have line of sight. This is perfectly fine. It makes sense. It would bother me if an enemy could just do the same thing as a tenno and jump 2 meters high and just mellee you independent of height or shoot through walls.

Start learning how to play and don't call everything a game design flaw or a bug just because it isn't accordingly to your warped vision. This is how the Devs wanted it to be. Infested come at you by the ton and they archive victory by swarming you down. It is up to you, the player to find a way not to be swarmed by finding high places, by moving around and keeping your surroundings in mind, by making sure to look at your minimap for red dots (if you have the relic to show enemies on radar anyway). No matter how easy a game is, it requires at least a minimal amount of brainpower rather than dumbing the game down to simply a guy who stands there shoots and everything dies without him needing to do anything else other than point and click. For that matter if what you want is a point and click game, go play flash games, there are a lot of them for free in the internet.

[MJ12]

When are you people going to get it in your hard heads that it isn't a freaking bug. Have you seen the size of a box? Have you actually taken a second your your precious time to actually compare the size of a box to your tenno? If you have you'll reach the conclusion that a tenno can (thanks to his suit) jump as high as his own heigh (Shall we say roughly 1.80M basing on the size of an actually human since they are about the size of a grineer). So, you're saying that enemies who have nothing to actually assist them jumping should effectivelly jump as high (Actually, those runners with blue eyes will jump you even if you are on top of the box because they are specificly designed to it and it is rather realistic)? Now more often than not a box will not protect you from attacks, you need at least 2 boxes high or something that is at least higher than 1 box (the exploding runners will explode at just a box height). Even 2 boxes high the ancients will attack you because guess what? They have enough range to attack you.

Oh wow you're making an argument from realism, right? Okay, realistically, if Infested weren't strong enough to jump 2+m to hit you on top of a box, they wouldn't be strong enough to even slightly hurt a Tenno decked out in a multi-thousand credit space future Orokin power armor suit like Iron Man. It'd be like trying to punch a medieval knight to death with weakling human fists, except the medieval knight is also superhumanly strong and can cut armored robots in half with a single swing of his sword. So this argument, that "they don't have anything to assist them jumping" holds no water. In fact it's an argument that Infested should deal no damage to you and actually hurt themselves with their attacks.

Also I hope you realize this means that if you used Mag's Bullet Attractor on any enemy, including a boss, you'd instantly kill them as all the iron in their blood would have to burst out of their veins at about Mach 20, right? REALISM.

Learn this is not AI breakdown, it is not a bug. The game AI is designed so that an enemy will only attack if it could realisticly attack you. Meaning, enemies will not mellee you if they are not in mellee range, they will not shoot you if they don't have line of sight. This is perfectly fine. It makes sense. It would bother me if an enemy could just do the same thing as a tenno and jump 2 meters high and just mellee you independent of height or shoot through walls.

No, it is not perfectly fine nor does it make sense. You have these guys who can bring claws to a gunfight and win. It means the Grineer and Corpus are $&*&*#(%&, if only they had stacked some boxes on their bases none of them would have ever been overrun by Infested ever. It makes no lore sense, it makes no game sense, and it creates a perverse incentive where the optimal strategy is trivializing the enemy (instead of actually being challenging). Games live and die on the risk-reward continuum. The best way to fight Infested at a high skill level should be the one that exposes you to the most risk.

Start learning how to play and don't call everything a game design flaw or a bug just because it isn't accordingly to your warped vision. This is how the Devs wanted it to be. Infested come at you by the ton and they archive victory by swarming you down. It is up to you, the player to find a way not to be swarmed by finding high places, by moving around and keeping your surroundings in mind, by making sure to look at your minimap for red dots (if you have the relic to show enemies on radar anyway). No matter how easy a game is, it requires at least a minimal amount of brainpower rather than dumbing the game down to simply a guy who stands there shoots and everything dies without him needing to do anything else other than point and click. For that matter if what you want is a point and click game, go play flash games, there are a lot of them for free in the internet.

Dude I've figured out how to use boxes to avoid Infested wayyy before. Fact is, it's either a bug or terrible game design, but you're defending it anyways because it... makes you feel better, I guess? It's a 'legitimate mechanic' in the same sense that taking advantage of right-hand advantage to kill everything without taking a single hit is a legitimate mechanic. Yes, the game currently is set up in that fashion. That doesn't change the fact that it's terrible, makes the enemy too easy (and then people use it to defend stunlock because 'the Infested are already easy!'), and it isn't even a fun kind of easy.

Look, if they just removed the ability of boxes to trivialize Infested, without even slightly changing stagger, I wouldn't actually mind that much. At least it'd make people supporting staggerlock make legitimate arguments instead of going "YOU CAN HIDE ON TOP OF A BOX NOOB".

Edited April 10, 2013 by MJ12

[Jonesy8000]

BUMP! Stunlock is still ridiculous. It makes soloing any kind of Infested super difficult, even if you are way over-leveled for it. Also, Grineer Rollers also over stun.

[Shaftronics]

Stun recovery mods have been confirmed in yesterday's livestream to be on the way.

[Mak_Gohae]

Heh. I love seeing this topic pop up again and again. Considering the almost flamewar we had on it before, it's good to see that the newer players feel what we discusses months ago, too.

 

 

And i love seeing that there are some newer players that figured out how to avoid this from happening as well.

It's the Circle of GamingAnd it moves us allThrough despair and hopeThrough faith and loveTill we find our placeOn the path unwindingIn the CircleThe Circle of Gaming.

[Sambit01]

[Quote]It stems from pretty much every infested being all about being in your face and pushing you around.  This isn't that bad on most missions, because you aren't holding still, you're moving and fighting through a ship or asteroid base.

 

I totally vouch for this paragraph.

[Draxxon]

Wow, this thread exploded and I stopped getting notifications. I've skimmed though some of the bigger posts and looked through some of the smaller posts. A lot of the responses look like they think I have trouble fighting infested, or that I lack the skill and just haven't learned how to play properly yet.I have been playing since update 5 and I've killed quite a few infested, I don't need weapon/mod loadouts and suggestions to "help" this problem. Also I'd be an idiot to not know that standing on top of something helps kill infested, but that's very situational and relies on the level you are in. Not only that, but many of these suggestions would really not help at all in a 20+ wave of defense. My point was that it doesn't matter if you have 4 players and the "right equipment" or even knowing how to kill them easily. My point was that there's so many of them, and they pretty much all have a way of stunlocking, it's not going to matter what your strategy was, it's going to fail faster than it should. It's not even because of dying players really. It's because we can't protect the cryopod most of the time.Ancients are going to have no problem knocking you around on a nearby perch to the crypod, and most likely runners and leapers will knock around even if you have a decent perch. If you take a perch far enough away, the cryopod is going to get ruined.In the infested's current state, they are way too good at stunlocking players who have to stay in one area to defend something. Either stunning/staggering from the infested needs to be changed, the way we resist it needs to be changed, or infested infinite defense needs to be changed. Also I'd like to disregard anyone who says that this doesn't matter because they've found "One specific way, and it's the only way that works." We should be able to do things multiple ways and strategies without abusing some sort of mechanic. When there's only one way to do something it becomes a routine, almost mechanical and boring procedure that everyone uses every time. In gaming we often call this something along the lines of the "Most effective method." It happens in games when there's one method that works so much better than anything else, in any situation, that it's all people start doing. It's boring, it's not good game design, and that's why games like this are constantly being balanced in the first place. Getting rid of most effective strategies helps prevent games from going stagnate. If there's only one way to beat infested defense and that's all we ever do, it's a pile of S#&$

;. 

Stun recovery mods have been confirmed in yesterday's livestream to be on the way.

 

I don't remember him saying it was going to be a mod, I just thought he said he would make us get up/react to stuns and knockdowns faster. In the case that it is a mod, I don't think that's a good idea. As it is, frames already feel stretched for mod slots because we've lost so many in update 7. I don't really care that we can take off our abilities for extra power/slots, trading around core abilities for mods is a bad idea in my opinion. Why should we have to take off one of our already useful mods for something we need. Once again, it's the most effective strategy problem. Recovery from the ridiculous amount of stuns is something we all need, all the time. Giving us a mod for it is going to be something boring we all use all the time. We won't be customizing and using different strategies, we'll all just be using our stupid anti-stunlock mod.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Draxxon

[WhiteCr0w]

I can definitely agree that the stunlocking from Runners can be incredibly annoying, but we have to analyze it from as many facets as possible. They're mainly a problem on Defense missions, we can agree on that. That's only one Mode in the game amongst several. Is it really necessary to change or balance something based on its behavior in a specific setting? Defense missions are designed to throw tons of enemies at you. Infected by nature are designed to swarm you. Stunlock from Runners is going to be exacerbated.

Not only that, there are plenty of ways within the game to combat against this. My brother and I run Io all the time. I play it close to the pod with a Scindo or Gram, and he finds the highest ledge he can and drops as many Runners en route to the pod at the beginning of a wave. Turns out it's quite effective. I have no problems wreaking cosmic havoc at the pod, and he keeps Runners and Ancients thinned out.

Edited April 12, 2013 by WhiteCr0w

[Karosu]

Edit: it appears to be ignoring my spacing and stuff so I apologize for the block of text.

You're focusing on the fact that they swarm in large numbers and Most have a stagger effect.

Chargers in my experience rarely ever stagger, i went out and tested it, let myself get hit about 100 times and only once did i ever get staggered, and that was when i was tested the proc chance while getting swarmed under by about 12.

Runners makes sense, they do DIE after all.

leapers have knockdown, yes but it does take them a long time to charge up the leap.

ancients of all kinds, not so dangerous solo with their SLOW attack speed and walk speed, yes they can run, but only in certain circumstances, yes disruptors tear shields down and suck power, but they still gotta hit you, poison is only dangerous in melee.

The thing that makes infected both weak and strong is the fact that they group up and come all at once, it makes them extremely susceptible to aoe attacks both melee and skills. Once they get strong enough that they can't be oneshotted and can actually fight back, they actually have things that will be dangerous.

And lets face it, really the only things not one shotted for quite some time in Defense missions are the ancients. and after a certain wave length you dont really even see much besides a walking army of ancients and a few chargers.

AND LETS KEEP IN MIND, the fact that infested waves go by a lot faster than the other types, because they swarm, and many who do them do it just for that fact alone, that its faster and more efficient, even if it does get pretty hard.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Karosu

[Draxxon]

Edit: it appears to be ignoring my spacing and stuff so I apologize for the block of text.You're focusing on the fact that they swarm in large numbers and Most have a stagger effect.Chargers in my experience rarely ever stagger, i went out and tested it, let myself get hit about 100 times and only once did i ever get staggered, and that was when i was tested the proc chance while getting swarmed under by about 12.Runners makes sense, they do DIE after all.leapers have knockdown, yes but it does take them a long time to charge up the leap.ancients of all kinds, not so dangerous solo with their SLOW attack speed and walk speed, yes they can run, but only in certain circumstances, yes disruptors tear shields down and suck power, but they still gotta hit you, poison is only dangerous in melee.The thing that makes infected both weak and strong is the fact that they group up and come all at once, it makes them extremely susceptible to aoe attacks both melee and skills. Once they get strong enough that they can't be oneshotted and can actually fight back, they actually have things that will be dangerous.And lets face it, really the only things not one shotted for quite some time in Defense missions are the ancients. and after a certain wave length you dont really even see much besides a walking army of ancients and a few chargers.AND LETS KEEP IN MIND, the fact that infested waves go by a lot faster than the other types, because they swarm, and many who do them do it just for that fact alone, that its faster and more efficient, even if it does get pretty hard.

 

You're argument is very valid and I think one of the best responses I've had. I do think things are worth changing at least somewhat though. I have a post I made early on in the thread that I think went largely unnoticed that I feel suggested changes that I think sound both fair and make sense. It has to do with our shields. Our enemies could keep their chance to stun, but our shields would be our stun/stagger defense.I think that while our shields are up, we should be immune to all but the most potent stagger attacks. It really makes sense and it would stop us from being knocked around all the time. It just doesn't make sense that our shields allow us to walk through zillions of shrapnel and bullets flying at the speed of sound, but our shields can't stop us from being knocked around by a 10-50 mph strike from the average enemy. Think about it. If someone had a shield that could stop bullets in their tracks and you went to punch them, I think you would be the one hurting and they would be standing there with a smirk on their face.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Draxxon