Are Kubrows Meant To Be Early-Game Or Not? (Poll)

[Renegade343]

Hello all,

 

This thread will be about answering a question: Are Kubrows meant to be early-game or not?

 

The reason for this is that some players have the stance that Kubrows are early-game due to the fact that new players can obtain the quest starter by completing the Jackal Assassination mission in Venus (which is an early planet), the mission to obtain the egg is in Earth (yet another early planet), and the Incubator Module can be obtained in Jupiter (early-mid game), while other players believe that Kubrows are not early-game due to credit upkeep and the fighting power of the Kubrows (and the fact that the Incubator Power Core requires Control Modules and Argon Crystals, both of which can be found in the Void [non early-game] or Europa for Control Modules [still non early-game], while Nano Spores can be found as early as Saturn [early-mid game], not to mention the huge credit cost for buying the blueprint and building it). 

 

The current quest is rather schizophrenic, in the sense that it starts off like an early-game quest, but the steps to continue on with the quest feels like mid (or maybe late for some) game. So, I would like your opinion on the posted question so we can get a general consensus. 

 

If Kubrows are meant to be early-game, then we can decrease the Incubator Power Core cost and modify some of the materials used to actually make it so new players can build it relatively easy (as one way of doing it). If Kubrows are not meant to be early-game, then we can move the quest starter to Jupiter, which by then the new player would have some weapons and mods to enter the Void (and it would make sense, given the intercepted message). 

 

Either way, the ultimate goal of this is to create a focus on where the quest should lie on (early-game, mid-game, late-game etc.), and tweak it so it falls solidly within one of the categories (a bit of a overlap is fine, but the current quest has done too much of it). 

 

Once again, I would like to hear your opinion on this matter, so we can continue to improve Warframe. 

 

Renegade343

[PsychedelicSnake]

I don't think Kubrows are meant as early-game content. Lots of things start off early, but that doesn't meant it is meant for early play.

[NeyoWargear]

I think the amount of attention and resources needed for a Kubrow is really endgame content. I'm getting tired of bringing people to the Void for Argon Crystals for their Incubator Power Core...

[Implodingbanana]

i think it gives something for new players to work towards and not get super quick. 

 

 

it gives them a goal

[Renegade343]

I don't think Kubrows are meant as early-game content. Lots of things start off early, but that doesn't meant it is meant for early play.

True, but in quest designs, it is better if the quest flow either has little to no 'mandatory' grind (or whatever it should be called) (i.e. not stopping the flow of the quest or just by a small degree) so players would want to continue on. If the quest flow has quite a lot of 'mandatory' grind (i.e. heavily impeding the flow of the quest), then there is a significant chance players will not want to continue on (i.e. motivation to do the quest has decreased). 

[Renegade343]

i think it gives something for new players to work towards and not get super quick. 

 

 

it gives them a goal

The quest itself has too much of 'mandatory' grind to make up for the goal (get the egg, get new weapons, get a key to the Void, get the Argon Crystals etc., all in one quest).

 

If it was non early-game, we can move it to Jupiter, which will at least make getting new weapons/upgrading mods and getting a key to the Void more bearable.

[Renegade343]

Or we have this: 

 

If Kubrow == early_game: 

 

- Make Incubator Power Core use Morphics and Gallium instead of Argon Crystals and Control Modules, reduce cost to 75,000 credits (50,000 blueprint buying, 25,000 crafting cost)

 

If Kubrow != early_game: 

 

- Move quest starter to Jupiter boss so that players do not feel de-motivated to do the quest [and when they finish the Jupiter boss, they would have retrieved some new weapons and upgraded mods to tackle the Void, meaning there is less of a 'mandatory' grind in the quest and thus will actually allow players to keep on playing]. 

 

Universal changes: 

 

- Have Kubrows dens get a 100% of dropping a Kubrow egg when destroyed when the player runs his/her third consecutive quest mission without getting a Kubrow egg. 

 

- Swap Loyalty and DNA Integrity mechanisms, then tweak it so the credit sinks become more tolerable. 

[Fubukin]

Concerning the upkeep cost of 100k credits per 12 days and the involvement of Argon Crystals, no, they aren't.

Unless DE wanted to invite low level players to clog up end-game missions like the void.

[AbaliskInfinite]

To the "Kubrows aren't for new players argument," a few things you have to remember.

 

1. Starting the quest requires you to have Venus unlocked, which is stupid easy.

2. Jackal is not terribly hard.

3. Argon Crystals drop from Phorid, who can spawn anywhere from Venus to Pluto.  Even early T1 Exterminates drop Argon Crystals, which does not lock Argon Crystals to veterans.

4. Eggs drop from all missions on Erf, albeit they are a tad bit rare.

5. The Lotus encourages players with "Every Tenno deserves a Kubrow"

 

Afterwards, a newbie will discover that they HAVE to stasis their pet because they can't keep up with the price while also upgrading their own mods.  After they find out that the Kubrows take 3 hours to defrost, they may just ragequit the whole system and go discover their first Sentinel.  

 

I suggest that a super-duper-awesome-mega cool cutscene of a Kubrow should be shown after defeating Jackal.  But instead, have Kubrows drop from Hyenas, to give new players something to work for.  They'll see that Kubrow kicking @$$ and hopefully that would inspire them to go wipe the Hyenas. (that's just a random thought though)

This is my sentiment on Kubrows and newbs.

 

I don't think Kubrows are meant as early-game content. Lots of things start off early, but that doesn't meant it is meant for early play.

Then they should move Kubrow stuff up to Hyenas as to not entice new players into wasting their time.

[Renegade343]

This is my sentiment on Kubrows and newbs.

 

Then they should move Kubrow stuff up to Hyenas as to not entice new players into wasting their time.

Which is why I am having this poll set up in the first place, to get a general consensus, then fix it. 

[AbaliskInfinite]

Which is why I am having this poll set up in the first place, to get a general consensus, then fie x it. 

In that case, I don't think they are meant for new players.  They are great companions that do high damage and when they decide to do something utility-wise, they do it damn good.  Aside from buggy AI, they feel like something meant for endgame.  

 

However, DE decided to put them in a place where new players get to too easily.  The initial 150k credit investment, the Argon Crystal, the egg farming, the mod farming, and the 100k credit upkeep aren't very newb friendly.  They should be endgame goals that new players work toward, instead of finding out they can't use their new Kubrow because they're too expensive.

[fatpig84]

Kubrows are meant to be for mastery rank 16s because they have ran out of stuff to get Mastery Exp.

Thankfully I am only Mastery 15 !

[Renegade343]

However, DE decided to put them in a place where new players get to too easily.  The initial 150k credit investment, the Argon Crystal, the egg farming, the mod farming, and the 100k credit upkeep aren't very newb friendly.  They should be endgame goals that new players work toward, instead of finding out they can't use their new Kubrow because they're too expensive.

The credit upkeep is alright, but placed in the wrong place. 

 

Players should not have credit upkeeps where it would make them lose progress when they fail to keep it up. Locked up but will regain full access when paid, yes. Losing progress unless paid, no. 

[Renegade343]

Good. From the responses so far, that means we have a more clearer focus for the quest (and Kubrows): It is around mid to late game. 

 

That means it is time to start fixing. 

[nanodust]

Kubrow is meant for all player, doesn't matter when you get it.

 

I can easily get it at rank 0 with 65 plat.

[Viverim]

I think they are intended to be for all players and that the implementation was poorly done.

 

Can they move kubrows to end-game?  Yes.  However this is promoting elitism, and quite a few players will get turned-off to Warframe if the best, most fun things are hidden behind months of required grind.

 

Really, I'm so tired of the elitism rampant in this topic that I don't even care anymore.  Do whatever y'all want.  The attempts to exclude new people from having anything nice in this game just leaves me less and less interested in the members of the community.

[Renegade343]

I think they are intended to be for all players and that the implementation was poorly done.

 

Can they move kubrows to end-game?  Yes.  However this is promoting elitism, and quite a few players will get turned-off to Warframe if the best, most fun things are hidden behind months of required grind.

 

Really, I'm so tired of the elitism rampant in this topic that I don't even care anymore.  Do whatever y'all want.  The attempts to exclude new people from having anything nice in this game just leaves me less and less interested in the members of the community.

What about placing the quest starter in Jupiter then?

 

Then new players can play for a bit more before getting into the quest, as the current quest has a yawning gap between its steps (some steps feel early-game, some steps feel mid-game, the gap is too huge). And the general (note: general) consensus is that Kubrows are meant for when players got a bit into Warframe. 

[fatpig84]

To be completely honest, if you can't afford to earn at least 30k a day, I am sorry to say Kubrows aren't for you.

This is based on off the maintenance fee of 100k over 12 days. Yes this takes into account that you have other stuff to build and mods to fuse.

 

That is the way things are imo in Warframe :/

Even a simple rank 3 rare mod can cost almost 10k or 11k if you use common cores to fuse.

A forma cost 35k to build as well.

Edited July 26, 2014 by fatpig84

[Renegade343]

If you can't afford to earn at least 30k a day, I am sorry to say Kubrows aren't for you.

I think the health degradation mechanism is flawed. I see the reason of it (credit sinks and such), but it would better if it were to be swapped with Loyalty instead, and have Loyalty decrease from 100% to -100% in a few days if the player does not interact with it. DE(L) allows Kubrow Food to be brought for 85,000 for 5, and each piece increases Loyalty by 20%. Player petting will increase Loyalty by 15%, three times a day. 

[Viverim]

What about placing the quest starter in Jupiter then?

 

Then new players can play for a bit more before getting into the quest, as the current quest has a yawning gap between its steps (some steps feel early-game, some steps feel mid-game, the gap is too huge). And the general (note: general) consensus is that Kubrows are meant for when players got a bit into Warframe. 

Not that I want to disagree, but this is hardly the first "end-game -vs- early game thread", and a lot (far, far too many) of people keep saying "Oh, just go to Pluto and farm for 20 minutes!"  They are implying that Kubrows, a very much touted feature of U14, is a nice new shiney for 6 month + veterans, and screw any new player who thinks that THEY deserve one!

 

I'm pretty well sick and tired of the whole attitude.  Way too many "Us -vs- Them!!"  feedback posts for me to feel anything but animosity coming from way too many people.

[Renegade343]

Not that I want to disagree, but this is hardly the first "end-game -vs- early game thread", and a lot (far, far too many) of people keep saying "Oh, just go to Pluto and farm for 20 minutes!"  They are implying that Kubrows, a very much touted feature of U14, is a nice new shiney for 6 month + veterans, and screw any new player who thinks that THEY deserve one!

 

I'm pretty well sick and tired of the whole attitude.  Way too many "Us -vs- Them!!"  feedback posts for me to feel anything but animosity coming from way too many people.

I just wanted to make the quest fun for all players. That is all. 

[Viverim]

I just wanted to make the quest fun for all players. That is all. 

Granted, and I'm not trying to abuse you in any way (I apologize if you think that I did), but I think Kubrows should be made accessible to new players rather than locked behind the l33t wall.  It's a major feature.  It shouldn't be hidden.  Making it inaccessible isn't going to get new people to stay.  They just get frustrated and go find something else to play.  Even making it only Jupiter isn't an enticement.

 

Most video game players don't have massive attention spans.  You have to get the best features to them quick, or they get bored and move on.  Kubrows have the potential to keep people playing, and while they are leveling up their kubrows, they are also experiencing more of the game.  Combine an attachment to the pet with an investment in the game, and your new players become far more likely to stay.

 

Give them a goal that they can accomplish in two or three months and some will stay and work to achieve it.  many will just say "why bother?"

[Renegade343]

Granted, and I'm not trying to abuse you in any way (I apologize if you think that I did), but I think Kubrows should be made accessible to new players rather than locked behind the l33t wall.  It's a major feature.  It shouldn't be hidden.  Making it inaccessible isn't going to get new people to stay.  They just get frustrated and go find something else to play.  Even making it only Jupiter isn't an enticement.

 

Most video game players don't have massive attention spans.  You have to get the best features to them quick, or they get bored and move on.  Kubrows have the potential to keep people playing, and while they are leveling up their kubrows, they are also experiencing more of the game.  Combine an attachment to the pet with an investment in the game, and your new players become far more likely to stay.

 

Give them a goal that they can accomplish in two or three months and some will stay and work to achieve it.  many will just say "why bother?"

Swap Loyalty and health degradation mechanics, for one. 

 

Then credit sinks would be at least more tolerable. 

 

And if I remember correctly, defeating the Jackal gives the player Jupiter Nav Coordinates, so I would think Jupiter would be a good time to introduce the quest, since the player would now be into the game (and with the Damaged mods, it would be slightly easier than before [although another quest given defeating the Jackal that concerns about upgrading MK-1 weapons and repairing Damaged mods would help to continuing player progression]). 

Edited July 26, 2014 by Renegade343

[AbaliskInfinite]

I think they are intended to be for all players and that the implementation was poorly done.

 

Can they move kubrows to end-game?  Yes.  However this is promoting elitism, and quite a few players will get turned-off to Warframe if the best, most fun things are hidden behind months of required grind.

 

Really, I'm so tired of the elitism rampant in this topic that I don't even care anymore.  Do whatever y'all want.  The attempts to exclude new people from having anything nice in this game just leaves me less and less interested in the members of the community.

It's not that I want new players to be excluded, I really don't.  But someone posted that sequelitis thing and it made me think that new players should have something to work toward, another goal after killing Vor (maybe Hyenas are too deep in the star chart though).  I don't even think they should be 'end-game' (albeit, I don't really know at what point endgame begins either) but as it stands, they don't seem fit for early game.  They need to be tweaked before they're truly suited for early game enjoyment.

 

I'm not trying to promote elitism.

[Viverim]

Swap Loyalty and health degradation mechanics, for one. 

 

Then credit sinks would be at least more tolerable. 

 

And if I remember correctly, defeating the Jackal gives the player Jupiter Nav Coordinates, so I would think Jupiter would be a good time to introduce the quest, since the player would now be into the game (and with the Damaged mods, it would be slightly easier than before [although another quest given defeating the Jackal that concerns about upgrading MK-1 weapons and repairing Damaged mods would help to continuing player progression]). 

When you say "Introduce at Jupiter" it implies the boss for Jupiter, not the first starting zone.  This means clearing all of the other zones to get at the boss.  This takes time.  I honestly don't know how quickly you can clear Venus, as it has been a while since I did it, and I don't know about Jupiter either.  Looking it up on the Wiki, Alad V. is the boss, so I don't know how well new players will be at taking him down.  But again, this adds time.

 

The cost of 'kubrow chow' really needs to come down, I would say to 50k, and they need to get the egg in the hands of new players faster (either a one-time egg reward for the first part of the Kubrow mission or making the drop rate more accessible to all of the player-base, as right now it is horribly random for some and overly easy for others).  If the new player uses platinum for speeding the incubation, great!  More income for DE(L)!  If they don't, that's great too!  They will spend time playing, but won't look too badly at the delay as they are still accomplishing something, ie, incubating their pet. 

 

Follow this with run of Earth to get mods, as well as more runs of Mercury to level up a new kubrow and the new player spends lots and lots of time in game.  By the time they are ready to head out for Jupiter, etc, the new player has an attachment to their pet, but has also leveled up some gear to be more potent and thus giving them a better chance at surviving in the outer Solar System.

 

Granted these are just my views on the subject.  Others (many?) will likely disagree, and that's fine.  I just hope that more people will be thinking of ways to get new people engaged rather than trying to shut the door in their face.