The Real Problem With Direct Health Damage

[LukeAura]

A lot of threads are currently discussing the positive and negative effects that Direct Health damage abilities in enemies add to the game. Most of them saying it is a negative.
However, forcing a different build and play style isn't necessarily a bad thing. Making players switch from Shields to Health keeps them trying different mods and different strategies. Players seem to in large quantities have trouble making this jump. And it's not just a 'git gud' problem.
The problem is that the game does not set up Health based defence as an 'attractive' option. But it continues to add importance or 'necessity' to it. 

Shields are attractive to players, they recharge on their own, they have a fall back defence behind them, they're a relatively easy defence to mod for requiring just one mod to make a very effective system in most cases, Redirection is fairly common from Elite and Frontier Elite lancers who appear relatively early in the game. Shields are simple, cheap, fairly effective, and their necessary mod is common and early.

What makes Health unattractive? Higher risk without a fallback should it drop, needs significant effort to become a rechargeable resource, more mod slot and mod point heavy, requiring more fusions means more credits and cores/fusion fodder devoted to them. Necessary mods, LifeStrike or Equilibrium, are gated behind large quantities of time wall/rng/enemies that highly value having these mods already. Other attractive mods to health based play, Rage and Quick Thinking are also both incredibly rare, one of them only appearing off the map in the void. Players are more likely to have a good stock of the ability focused mods before they ever see more than one of the four mods I've mentioned. 
Health is not as simple, nowhere near as cheap, more restrictive, only slightly more effective, and their necessary mods are heavily gated and rare and don't come as early to players. 
 

Until health based defence becomes as attractive and available an option to players as shields can we ever have an accurate discussion on the importance or value of enemies that deal in direct health damage. 

[MA347612890GT4078579132R]

What would really help is passive health regeneration. A small amount, but it should be there. I'm having a hard time believing our advanced Warframes don't at least have some sort of automated health systems built in. Make every Warframe have .5 HP/S, which would match an unranked Rejuvenation, or hell even make it .25 HP/S, but something so that people have something and aren't screwed as their health slowly whittles down in a mission. To restore health currently you either need to run around smashing crates and opening lockers, have someone with Rejuvenation, have a Trinity, have a Nekros, have Life Strike, or have Equilibrium. When I was a new player, all I had was the first option. Rejuvenation was alerts only, Trinity was planets away, and the other 3 didn't exist yet. Many missions the crates and lockers simply didn't have enough health orbs to really sustain me. Just having a base line small amount of health regeneration would help immensely (and hell, I'd say Warframes should have a base .1 energy a second regeneration too but people already rage at how powers are just so spammable and need nerfs). Also most frames have no damage reduction because of pitiful armor, and Steel Fiber does not help since it's a % increase of what you already have. You don't health tank on a Trinity or Loki but with all the things that bypass shields, you are forced to.

 

Side note: How does shield bypassing damage make more build variety? You know your shields are going to be useless, you fit for health. Why would you take only shields to an infested mission where the ospreys are going to do 50 health damage per second per cloud to you? s:

[Derpo]

+1  Bypassing shields and armor seems illogical to me, but if it happens at all it should be rare. Instead, direct health damage is common. I have to keep Rejuvenate aura on most of my warframes. Infested are particularly bad.

 

Now if the same intelligent OP would do equally useful analysis of putting that obnoxious grappling hook ability on ancients. =P

[Monolake]

Good point that I personally overlook (having all the mods). The solution could be: significantly more hp orb drops from the enemies. 

 

And make life-restores cheaper and faster-acting too.

 

Also I would make Equilibrium a common mod( easier to rank), and place it as earlier planets reward (mayeb from defences/survivals or bosses).

When you get to Lephantis you most likely don't even need Equilibrium at all.

 

Also Oberon was at pretty good place dropping from an easy boss on Earth, now he is totally RNG and much harder to gather parts for new players.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Monolake

[Derpo]

+1  Bypassing shields and armor seems illogical to me, but if it happens at all it should be rare. Instead, direct health damage is common. I have to keep Rejuvenate aura on most of my warframes. Infested are particularly bad.

 

Now if the same intelligent OP would do equally useful analysis of putting that obnoxious grappling hook ability on ancients. =P

[Austerity]

Try the Eternal's build all those dmg procs just feed your energy supply. 

 

This seems much like what you're saying you want.

[letir]

Make aids more viable. They should be used on move.

[letir]

Try the Eternal's build all those dmg procs just feed your energy supply. 

 

This seems much like what you're saying you want.

Quick Thinking, Rage, Sure Footed, maxed Equlibrium - this is rare stuff, and can't be obtained by newbie.

[LukeAura]

Side note: How does shield bypassing damage make more build variety? You know your shields are going to be useless, you fit for health. Why would you take only shields to an infested mission where the ospreys are going to do 50 health damage per second per cloud to you? s:

Not build variety per se, but gameplay variety. 

All shield effecting mods are about quickly restoring shields or having more shields, Vigor/Redirection boost, Fast Deflection, Guardian restore shields faster. All health regenerating mods are about a slower but more consistent(Sort of), restoration, comboing well with Steel Fiber to make every point of health worth more. Lifestrike Rage/Quickthinking, Equilirbium can all be used to restore health while taking health damage.

 

 

Try the Eternal's build all those dmg procs just feed your energy supply. 

 

This seems much like what you're saying you want.

This is a very mod intensive build. High point and slot cost, hard to track down all these mods, more expensive to fuse. It is effective, maybe more than a simple shield build. But it isn't attractive to players who have spent the whole game being conditioned to focus on shields+ability spam.

 

 

Good point that I personally overlook (having all the mods). The solution could be: significantly more hp orb drops from the enemies. 

 

And make life-restores cheaper and faster-acting too.

 

Also I would make Equilibrium a common mod( easier to rank), and place it as earlier planets reward (mayeb from defences/survivals or bosses).

When you get to Lephantis you most likely don't even need Equilibrium at all.

 

Also Oberon was at pretty good place dropping from an easy boss on Earth, now he is totally RNG and much harder to gather parts for new players.

All excellent ideas thanks for the input. 

I miss the old life restores that were cheap on the market and could easily be cracked for an immediate health boost.  

The equilibrium adjustment and more health orbs would put a very good start to encouraging players to experiment with health builds from their formative stages in the game.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I don't think taking health damage should ever be attractive. With rare and gimmicky exceptions, you should be wanting to avoid health damage at all costs.

[letir]

So, this:

1) Small health regen by default. Restore 0.25-0.50 HP in sec.

2) Cheap personal medkits. Restore 20/30/40% of total HP in 30 sec, cannot stack.

3) Enemies drop much more HP orbs. HP orbs restores 5-10% of your HP.

[Phatose]

If health damage wasn't supposed to happen, we wouldn't have healer frames.  In many ways, Warframe is closer to typical MMO then an action game and this is one of them.  In an action game you can reasonably avoid damage.  In an MMO, you simply can't. 

 

I'm curious as what exactly the difference is between an attractive option and an important one.  This sounds like a mindset issue, not a gameplay one.

 

Stock health regeneration may work, but runs into the issue of being overly similar to how shields already function.

 

Enemies dropping health orbs would probably be the best approach, provided those orbs were uncommon and faded quickly.  Long lasting common orbs would push the balance too far in the favor of health, especially when armor is taken into account.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

If health damage wasn't supposed to happen, we wouldn't have healer frames. 

Health damage is a failure state.  Healing frames are just there to mitigate that.  That doesn't mean you are supposed to be tanking with your HP.

[letir]

Enemies dropping health orbs would probably be the best approach, provided those orbs were uncommon and faded quickly.  Long lasting common orbs would push the balance too far in the favor of health, especially when armor is taken into account.

Armor is completly worthless for most frames and innefective for armored ones (excluding Valkyr).

[Phatose]

Health damage is a failure state.  Healing frames are just there to mitigate that.  That doesn't mean you are supposed to be tanking with your HP.

 

That's one possible design, but it's far from the only possibility.  Given the considerable number of ways you can take direct health damage in this game, and the developers pointing to things like 70s pen and paper RPGs where heath damage was a given, it's rather obviously not the one in play here. 

 

Please don't mistake your favored design for the only possible one - it's not.  Games from PnP D&D to Doom to WoW have damage against non-regenerating health as a core element.

 

 

Armor is completly worthless for most frames and innefective for armored ones (excluding Valkyr).

 

It's hardly a huge impact, I agree.  My concern with health drops though is mainly one of stockpiling.  The most commonly played game modes run progressively, from easier enemies at the beginning to harder ones later on.  That would create a situation where in a fair number of highly played maps, players will build up a considerable number of health orb drops against easy early opponents, getting a significant advantage in available absorption, and make shields considerably less useful.  I don't want that.

[letir]

It's hardly a huge impact, I agree.  My concern with health drops though is mainly one of stockpiling.  The most commonly played game modes run progressively, from easier enemies at the beginning to harder ones later on.  That would create a situation where in a fair number of highly played maps, players will build up a considerable number of health orb drops against easy early opponents, getting a significant advantage in available absorption, and make shields considerably less useful.  I don't want that.

Maybe you missed something, but early opponets will fight with newbies. And newbies don't have skill to hadle them properly, mods for easygoing or money for aids.

Edited August 1, 2014 by letir

[Phatose]

I meant within a single mission, not across the game - the way a defense or survival starts at a specific enemy level, and then goes up from there.

[letir]

That's one possible design, but it's far from the only possibility.  Given the considerable number of ways you can take direct health damage in this game, and the developers pointing to things like 70s pen and paper RPGs where heath damage was a given, it's rather obviously not the one in play here. 

 

Please don't mistake your favored design for the only possible one - it's not.  Games from PnP D&D to Doom to WoW have damage against non-regenerating health as a core element.

1. This games don't have shields system. This system used in actions to prevent damage to health.

2. This games have plenty over choices to restore HP (such as potions, food).

3. "Must have" classes it's old design for cooperation in pure RPG, they are not popular in mixed games.

Edited August 1, 2014 by letir

[LukeAura]

I'm curious as what exactly the difference is between an attractive option and an important one.  This sounds like a mindset issue, not a gameplay one.

Im going to try and explain it as best I can. 

Importance or Necessity is forcing you to consider it as an option, and is generally external to the item in question. Like say, getting a phone in todays more on the go society is almost a necessity. Even if you don't want one, you are severely limitting your value as a person without a way to be in contact with others despite your location. 

Attractive makes you want to use it. Maybe this one has a keypad, or this one plays music, this one is lighter and more portable, one has no functionality but is considerably cheaper. Things that dont make it more necessary to have(are generally associated with the item itself as well not the world around it), over just a phone, but might make you pick that one over another. 

If health was an attractive option we would see....

Against an enemy faction that dealt no shield bypassing damage, ever, and dealt a damage type that was roughly equal in terms of damage output against both shields and health you would get roughly as many people running health based builds as shields. No inherent advantage or disadvantage is being levied towards either defence type. 

 

Need is generally increased by outside influences, Want by influences internal to the particular item and compared to other items of its class.

[letir]

I meant within a single mission, not across the game - the way a defense or survival starts at a specific enemy level, and then goes up from there.

I don't see any problem in this. HP tank on Healt Orbs? Hell, why not?

[Phatose]

1. This games don't have shields system. This system used in actions to prevent damage to health.

2. This games have plenty over choices to restore HP (such as potions, food).

3. "Must have" classes it's old design for cooperation in pure RPG, they are not popular in mixed games.

 

None of those actually mean it's not a valid design.  There's nothing innately wrong with a system where one regenerating pool can absorb most, but not all damage.  As recent a mechanic as blocking with physical shields in the Souls Series functioned exactly that way - a varying percentage of any particular damage on a shield hit would be redirected to stamina.  But on any shield without a 100% absorption of the elements attack, a portion of it would still get through and damage your health.

 

It's a workable system.  You're certainly welcome to dislike it, but that doesn't make it unreasonable.

 

 

I don't see any problem in this. HP tank on Healt Orbs? Hell, why not?

 

It's mostly a balance concern.  Seems to me like having one damage mitigation build up a considerable advantage versus easier opponents would make it favorable later on, and that's what people would build for.   But it's possible I'm wrong there.

 

 

 

Im going to try and explain it as best I can. 

Importance or Necessity is forcing you to consider it as an option, and is generally external to the item in question. Like say, getting a phone in todays more on the go society is almost a necessity. Even if you don't want one, you are severely limitting your value as a person without a way to be in contact with others despite your location. 

Attractive makes you want to use it. Maybe this one has a keypad, or this one plays music, this one is lighter and more portable, one has no functionality but is considerably cheaper. Things that dont make it more necessary to have(are generally associated with the item itself as well not the world around it), over just a phone, but might make you pick that one over another. 

If health was an attractive option we would see....

Against an enemy faction that dealt no shield bypassing damage, ever, and dealt a damage type that was roughly equal in terms of damage output against both shields and health you would get roughly as many people running health based builds as shields. No inherent advantage or disadvantage is being levied towards either defence type. 

 

Need is generally increased by outside influences, Want by influences internal to the particular item and compared to other items of its class.

 

That really sounds like a mindset issue to me, nothing innate.  I could view having a cell phone as attractive simply because being in contact with others in any location is something innate to the phone itself, and something I want. 

[LukeAura]

That really sounds like a mindset issue to me, nothing innate.  I could view having a cell phone as attractive simply because being in contact with others in any location is something innate to the phone itself, and something I want. 

Want and Needs are generally mixed in modern society, so a phone might not be the best choice. You could say food is a need then. Boiled Cabbage is food, therefore it fills the need. But a steak is delicious, it fills the want.

Defense in this game is a need.

shields and health both fill that need. 

But, shields fill the want of that need, health doesn't.

  

But to explain it in your sense I suppose a need is a negative reason to get that item over another.

While a want is a positive reason, that makes getting that item not just valuable but 'fun' as well.  

 

[Otomaru]

Nothing wrong with direct damage to HP. There are a lot of options to recover HP and mitigate damage dealt to it.

 

It should occur as obstacle only to new players, but that's totally fine - It's rather easy obstacle to overcome. if you don't know how to - forums, wiki and google are your friends.

 

Don't make this in to a game where everything is fed to you from a silver plate.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Otomaru

[letir]

None of those actually mean it's not a valid design.  There's nothing innately wrong with a system where one regenerating pool can absorb most, but not all damage.  As recent a mechanic as blocking with physical shields in the Souls Series functioned exactly that way - a varying percentage of any particular damage on a shield hit would be redirected to stamina.  But on any shield without a 100% absorption of the elements attack, a portion of it would still get through and damage your health.

 

It's a workable system.  You're certainly welcome to dislike it, but that doesn't make it unreasonable.

It's unreasonable, bcs it's cheap and stupid.

 

DE deploy a "shield domination" system, when HP and armor just don't worth leveling at all, same with ME series. You can create efficient shield build-up with just one mod (Redirection) and put mods in utility/power build. HP build need more attention, more mods and still worse in the end.

 

So, they try "destroy cookie-cutter builds", but they don't buffing HP tanking. They just create much more cheap, unavoidable damage to HP.

 

It's unreasonble, not design-wise and solve nothing.

 

 

Shield tanking is still better. HP tanking is still worse.

[letir]

Nothing wrong with direct damage to HP. There are a lot of options to recover HP and mitigate damage dealt to it.

Recover:

3 frames from 26.

1 aura from 16

2 mods from...

Healt orbs - completly unreliable.

 

Miltigate:

Armor - worthless.

Antitoxin - weak and worthless.

Quck Thinking - very rare.

 

 

So much ways!