Rhino Should Be The Only Starter Frame Available.

[Sloan441]

They don't know any different and it's for both their good and that of more experienced players.

 

Enabling more rushrushrush jackhats tripping on ironskin and a lot of stamina/speed mods isn't a good thing for anyone.

 

The group is best (and the most fun) when working together, not trying to keep up with some ADD addled moron. Rhino promotes a lot of bad behavior. He's great later on for farming mods--particular nightmare--but early on he's doing nothing but teaching bad habits.

 

It's arguable who might replace him, but Trinity would be a good choice. She was my second 'frame and still one of my favorites, despite the unwarranted changes. She is a great 'frame to play with others and keeping them in the fight (regardless of method) is a great motivator.

[DPV111]

Rhino is terrible without strong weapons. He is a ranged tank, not a melee tank or an alpha tank.

Without a decent array of mods, he is only around as survivable as Excalibutt, except Radial Blind give you a bigger damage boost than Roar and better mitigation than Iron Skin and Slash Dash and Radial Javelin are both much more powerful than Rhino Charge and Stomp.

The issue of Frames being generally underpowered and Mods being generally overpowered permeates the entire game.

Excalibur is the ONLY frame balanced for comprehensive use by new players. He is also the only frame who is equally viable on all mission and against all factions.

The only thing that is a threat to Excalibur at all is Stalker.

And he's not even the most effective frame in the game. Those would be Nyx and Trinity.

No. Rhino is no starter frame. In fact, I would prefer to see Rhino and Excalibur swap planets, making Rhino only obtainable by advanced players who understand the games' s tactics beyond "Iron Skin lol".

Edited August 26, 2014 by DPV111

[Azawarau]

Rhino is terrible without strong weapons. He is a ranged tank, not a melee tank or an alpha tank.

Without a decent array of mods, he is only around as survivable as Excalibutt, except Radial Blind give you a bigger damage boost than Roar and better mitigation than Iron Skin and Slash Dash and Radial Javelin are both much more powerful than Rhino Charge and Stomp.

The issue of Frames being generally underpowered and Mods being generally overpowered permeates the entire game.

Excalibur is the ONLY frame balanced for comprehensive use by new players. He is also the only frame who is equally viable on all mission and against all factions.

The only thing that is a threat to Excalibur at all is Stalker.

And he's not even the most effective frame in the game. Those would be Nyx and Trinity.

No. Rhino is no starter frame. In fact, I would prefer to see Rhino and Excalibur swap planets, making Rhino only obtainable by advanced players who understand the games' s tactics beyond "Iron Skin lol".

 Roar is an extremely effective damage boost and QT+ rage give rhino passable facetank power along with two good ways to avoid QT stunlock

[DPV111]

Roar is an extremely effective damage boost and QT+ rage give rhino passable facetank power along with two good ways to avoid QT stunlock

I am not saying Rhino is not good. I am saying that Excalibur is better OUT OF THE BOX than Rhino.

Roar boosts all damage by 114.5% when maximized with several hard to obtain mods. 65% at max rank with Intensify, which is far more likely.

Radial Blind gives a 400% melee damage boost while keeping all enemies oblivious to your melee massacre. That is better than Roar AND Iron Skin combined and without any fancy mods. Right out of the box.

Rhino is the best frame for ranged tanking and the best frame for soloing but he is not an offensive frame. He is a defensive/support frame which is misused and abused solely due to his survivability.

[Dasmir]

Putting rhino as starter frame is a good way to make new players to fall sleep.

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Guys, remember, beginners don't just need cushioning, they need to hone their skills. 

Rhino is not the best frame for that.

[Filas312]

Rhino is the best frame for ranged tanking and the best frame for soloing but he is not an offensive frame. He is a defensive/support frame which is misused and abused solely due to his survivability.

Did you check the polarity on Rhino's aura? I guess DE wants him to be offensive.

[Azawarau]

I am not saying Rhino is not good. I am saying that Excalibur is better OUT OF THE BOX than Rhino.

Roar boosts all damage by 114.5% when maximized with several hard to obtain mods. 65% at max rank with Intensify, which is far more likely.

Radial Blind gives a 400% melee damage boost while keeping all enemies oblivious to your melee massacre. That is better than Roar AND Iron Skin combined and without any fancy mods. Right out of the box.

Rhino is the best frame for ranged tanking and the best frame for soloing but he is not an offensive frame. He is a defensive/support frame which is misused and abused solely due to his survivability.

You could just iron skin all day and never have trouble until maybe pluto

 

If i had a dollar for every time an excali on a low planet went down and the rhino saved him...

[Filas312]

Yesterday I've made my (I know, I know, I am getting Valkyr soon) Rhinoserker with Zorens, and guess what, he owns Pluto with no real problems. Siphon isn't even needed, as I don't even have to cast Iron Skin 24/7 with my setup.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Filas312

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Oh look, Radial Blind went up, entire party is fine. I've seen more Rhino drops than Excal drops.

 

True that.

[fatpig84]

Guys, remember, beginners don't just need cushioning, they need to hone their skills. 

Rhino is not the best frame for that.

 

Don't worry.

Rhino is waiting on them on Venus yo.

[Azawarau]

Oh look, Radial Blind went up, entire party is fine. I've seen more Rhino drops than Excal drops.

On the star chart?

 

Maybe at pluto

 

Neptune? Slight chance

 

Anything lower im calling BS

 

Rhinos 2 can effortlessly tank it

Edited August 26, 2014 by Azawarau

[Vallerian]

Yeah I always thought it was weird that you could choose Excal and Loki right off the bat, they're among the hardest frames to actually farm

 

 

I think there should actually be a dedicated beginner frame though, like an Excal MK-1 or something. When my friends started playing this game, they all just chose Mag and pull-@#&*(d their way through every level.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Vallerian

[DPV111]

If i had a dollar for every time an excali on a low planet went down and the rhino saved him...

That Rhino had really no business being there. Yes Excalbwill go down more than Thino. Excal is doffensive amd Rhino defensice. It is in no way a negative that Excalibur is squishier than Rhino. Excalibur has all the utility of Rhino but better.

[DPV111]

Did you check the polarity on Rhino's aura? I guess DE wants him to be offensive.

Ranged tanking. Ranged. RANGED. Rifle Amp.

[quietcanary]

I think my irritation at the thought of more newbie rhinos might be in the way of me giving this suggestion a fair chance.... so that's a no plz.

[Azawarau]

The entire star chart, the Void and Derelict combined. Radial Blind > Rhino.

 

I have seen Rhinos drop, Rhinos get cocky. The two frames I'm expecting to pick up the most, Loki then Rhino. Unless the frame is piloted by somebody with good awareness and skill, yeah it will drop.

You know what star chart means so dont start that

 

Simply put

 

Excaliburs will go down more

 

Softer offensive frames always go down more than hefty defensive ones

 

That Rhino had really no business being there. Yes Excalbwill go down more than Thino. Excal is doffensive amd Rhino defensice. It is in no way a negative that Excalibur is squishier than Rhino. Excalibur has all the utility of Rhino but better.

Im not saying theres anything wrong with it but rhino will last longer

 

How does Excali have all the utility of rhino but better?

[Azawarau]

An Excal built for Blind will not go down more than a Rhino. Excal has all the utility by covering the entire team, giving them a 400x multiplier and a 5 second breath space with the stun, all in one skill. 3 of Rhinos skills in one. For longer than his.

400x for melee only

 

Rhino can give 50-114%

 

A radial CC

 

And be immune entirely to any forms of CC

 

Hes generally easier to use and has more options available to him for surviving

[Azawarau]

Except Excal does that all in one skill. And immunity to CC is irrelevant if nothing is hitting you in the first place, Rhinos only covers himself, Excal the team.

Because stomp doesnt do anything and Roar doesnt help with power scaling at all

[DPV111]

You know what star chart means so dont start that

 

Simply put

 

Excaliburs will go down more

 

Softer offensive frames always go down more than hefty defensive ones

 

Im not saying theres anything wrong with it but rhino will last longer

 

How does Excali have all the utility of rhino but better?

Slash Dash does what Rhino Charge does, but has better stats.

Radial Blind does what Roar, Iron Skin, and Rhino Stomp do, but more team damage than Roar, team mitigation instead of just self, and a much larger CC with longer mitigation.

Radial Blind is way more damaging and with way more range.

Again, not saying Rhino is bad in any way, but his powers are not the best in the game at what they do, utility-wise.

[Azawarau]

Slash Dash does what Rhino Charge does, but has better stats.

Radial Blind does what Roar, Iron Skin, and Rhino Stomp do, but more team damage than Roar, team mitigation instead of just self, and a much larger CC with longer mitigation.

Radial Blind is way more damaging and with way more range.

Again, not saying Rhino is bad in any way, but his powers are not the best in the game at what they do, utility-wise.

Roar scales with powers and non melee weapons

 

Stomp stuns enemies entirely for 8 seconds where radial has 4 and then its after effect

 

His base armor,iron skin,shields, and health make him tankier than excali

 

Im not saying excali is bad but hes certainly not better than rhino at everything

 

Excal is all radial blind stun and javelin damage

 

Rhino is support tank

[DPV111]

-sic-

I would rather have 4x damage from melee than 0.5x everything.

 

After the stun, enemies can move but not attack you and they take 4x melee damage. That "after effect" lasts twice as long as Stomp.

 

Enemies not attacking you at all is better than being tanky.

 

I totally agree.

 

And?

 

And?

 

 

The point is that Excalibur has a better balance of OPness and risk which makes for more excitement and more challenge to help a player improve at the game. And that is what makes a good starter frame.

[Azawarau]

I would rather have 4x damage from melee than 0.5x everything.

 

After the stun, enemies can move but not attack you and they take 4x melee damage. That "after effect" lasts twice as long as Stomp.

 

Enemies not attacking you at all is better than being tanky.

 

I totally agree.

 

And?

 

And?

 

 

The point is that Excalibur has a better balance of OPness and risk which makes for more excitement and more challenge to help a player improve at the game. And that is what makes a good starter frame.

They can attack you

 

And Rhinos roar goes up to 114% iirc

 

Youre ignoring things for your argument here

[DPV111]

They can attack you

 

And Rhinos roar goes up to 114% iirc

 

Youre ignoring things for your argument here

The only attacks enemies can make while blinded are grenades thrown by ranged enemies. And these cannot be aimed at you directly.

I was comparing power stats for max rank, unmodded for the sake of consistency. This is a discussion regarding starter frames. Maximization is irrelevant.

I am not ignoring anything. I am not saying either is a better frame overall. I am merely showing how Excalibur makes a better starter frame than Rhino because he is less tanky but holds better utility than Rhino in fewer abilities.

At higher levels where everyone is using uber mods and weapons, their utility makes the much more dynamic and playstyle preference determines which is better when used by difderent players. But we are talking about low level Mastery Rank 0 new player content, and for that Excalibur is a far better frame.

You accuse me of ignoring things about the frames, but I have made this distinction several times and you keep bringing up arguments regarding the frames that are not relevant to the nature of the topic.

[Azawarau]

They don't attack you, the only thing they do is attack where you used to be. You've ignored everything in favour of Rhino even though it's blatently obvious Rhino is not on the same level nor is he a good idea for a start, Excal is.

Rhino is a horrible starter bcause hes overpowered

 

Where excali would stun enemies rhino would likely stomp kill for half the game

 

Where he cant do that theres iron skin+stomp + gunning

 

Rhino is quite possibly the last frame that needs to be a starter

 

The only attacks enemies can make while blinded are grenades thrown by ranged enemies. And these cannot be aimed at you directly.

I was comparing power stats for max rank, unmodded for the sake of consistency. This is a discussion regarding starter frames. Maximization is irrelevant.

I am not ignoring anything. I am not saying either is a better frame overall. I am merely showing how Excalibur makes a better starter frame than Rhino because he is less tanky but holds better utility than Rhino in fewer abilities.

At higher levels where everyone is using uber mods and weapons, their utility makes the much more dynamic and playstyle preference determines which is better when used by difderent players. But we are talking about low level Mastery Rank 0 new player content, and for that Excalibur is a far better frame.

You accuse me of ignoring things about the frames, but I have made this distinction several times and you keep bringing up arguments regarding the frames that are not relevant to the nature of the topic.

Youre entirely ignoring that rhinos iron skin prevents him from death on early levels while granting total CC and proc immunity

 

A cast and forget skill that youll use much less than a cast when you see multiple enemies skill

 

Taking energy efficiency and general tankiness into account i still strongly hold that rhino is a superior out of the box frame with iron skin alone