Why Always Ask For Nerfs?

[TheErebus.]

Why not read instead of making snarky comments?

Because no one likes reading walls of text that's why.

 

Ever wonder why authors use breaks and paragraphs? 

Edited August 12, 2014 by TheErebus

[bobafetthotmail]

Because this game isn't a sandbox, and is designed to be played with other players, that are supposed to have fun as well.

 

If a player can simply spam AoE weapons then what's the point of teamwork again?

 

Also, because the whole point of rocket and grenade launchers was to be LOW AMMO and HIGH POWER, so the right question would have been "Why was this not done right the first time?"

Edited August 12, 2014 by theclinton
cleaning

[Alphafox]

Then don't.

Could you kindly break it off in paragraphs please?

[ra9una]

It's for the sake of balance. Something most people want. Sadly.

[Kylecrafts]

Oh yeah, it's not like we've been asking for a Braton Prime buff forever...

[Alphafox]

*INCOMING WALL OF TEXT*

 

People who don't go very far in Endless Missions think certain Weapons are Overpowered (Boltor, Soma,Brakk, etc.) But in reality just like every weapon in the game, it has a fall-off point. I usually go 45mins-70 Mins in T4 Surv, and the drop-off of my Boltor is about 1 hour, after that we're usually relying on Nyx. Like i said before, a weapon that is "Overpowered" in a lower tier, is perfectly balanced in a higher tier. Anyone who's gone a hour in T4 Surv knows that all weapons have a drop-off point at around that mark(Except Launchers, but who would bring a Penta/Ogris to Survival). And yes, more people ask for Buffs more than Nerfs, but the nerfs actually happen more.

 

 The Buffs in this game are more like Reworks, while the Nerf can completely destroy one's Playstyle. And i agree with OP, us Forumgoers should not have such a huge impact on the game. I propose we put a poll into the game (Under the News Section) That you click take the poll just like the forums and then [DE] decides. Because not matter what we're thinking, we don't know what majority of the actual game is thinking and that;'s a fact. Of Course, first thing comes to mind is Power Creep,and sadly Warframe has a lot of it. Too get rid of it, we need to add different playstyles, which DE is currently trying to do with the addition of new Warframes. People say Mirage is OP, but all she does is add a damage multiplier just like Excalibur, Loki, and Ash. This is called an incomparable.

 

 No matter how much we argue which is better, it will never end due to the Warframes all having different playstyles. Warframes are quite a bit easier than say weapons. [DE] has successfully done this once (To my knowledge) with the Amprex and Synapse. People argue "Amprex is better because of AOE", but the Other might say "No Synapse is better because of higher damage and it's not ammo hungry". While some weapons/Warframes are not as easy to add an incomparable such as Boltor Prime and our Explosive friends. By DE trying to create incomparables for them (Boltor Prime and Soma; Ogris and Penta) they have instead created more Power Creep as both weapons are still great for any situation and offer little to no drawbacks. DE has solved our Armor Power Creep (Warframes), but weapons are not so easy.

Did my best to make it readable.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Could you kindly break it off in paragraphs please?

Only because you asked nicely :)

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

*INCOMING WALL OF TEXT*

 

People who don't go very far in Endless Missions think certain Weapons are Overpowered (Boltor, Soma,Brakk, etc.) But in reality just like every weapon in the game, it has a fall-off point. I usually go 45mins-70 Mins in T4 Surv, and the drop-off of my Boltor is about 1 hour, after that we're usually relying on Nyx. Like i said before, a weapon that is "Overpowered" in a lower tier, is perfectly balanced in a higher tier. Anyone who's gone a hour in T4 Surv knows that all weapons have a drop-off point at around that mark(Except Launchers, but who would bring a Penta/Ogris to Survival). And yes, more people ask for Buffs more than Nerfs, but the nerfs actually happen more. The Buffs in this game are more like Reworks, while the Nerf can completely destroy one's Playstyle. And i agree with OP, us Forumgoers should not have such a huge impact on the game.

 

I propose we put a poll into the game (Under the News Section) That you click take the poll just like the forums and then [DE] decides. Because not matter what we're thinking, we don't know what majority of the actual game is thinking and that;'s a fact. Of Course, first thing comes to mind is Power Creep,and sadly Warframe has a lot of it. Too get rid of it, we need to add different playstyles, which DE is currently trying to do with the addition of new Warframes.

 

People say Mirage is OP, but all she does is add a damage multiplier just like Excalibur, Loki, and Ash. This is called an incomparable. No matter how much we argue which is better, it will never end due to the Warframes all having different playstyles. Warframes are quite a bit easier than say weapons. [DE] has successfully done this once (To my knowledge) with the Amprex and Synapse. People argue "Amprex is better because of AOE", but the Other might say "No Synapse is better because of higher damage and it's not ammo hungry". While some weapons/Warframes are not as easy to add an incomparable such as Boltor Prime and our Explosive friends. By DE trying to create incomparables for them (Boltor Prime and Soma; Ogris and Penta) they have instead created more Power Creep as both weapons are still great for any situation and offer little to no drawbacks. DE has solved our Armor Power Creep (Warframes), but weapons are not so easy.

[-Vega-IX-]

For me the launchers nerf isn't relevant because when i'm going to finish my ammo i'll use a ammo restore, and it will be like before for me, so in this case for me there is no change. I will stay over my pillar all the time. 

[Cpt_Atroxium]

To maintain balance on the field of justice. 

 

Only way you will feel, is quite obvious. 

[sorq]

sooooooo you would refer being overpower... and kill everything... in 0,1 seconds... not needing to use any kind of skill... or tactical thinking... and completely remove fun challenge from the game?

Point is, not everyone plays the same way. And i feel that you shouldn't just base on your own -i don't know, envy (?)- and shout for nerf.

You chose your own load out, and hence play with it. Others have their own choice too.

Some have different kinds of fun like destroying the map in 0.1 seconds. So as the difference of your fun and theirs.

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Nerfs get asked for because OP gear causes a lot more problems than underpowered gear, simple as that.  If one weapon is underpowered people just don't generally use it, this is bad of course and the item should be buffed up to par.  If one weapon is overpowered practically everyone and their grandma will use it and then (ironically) complain over a lack of challenge which cannot be properly solved by buffing our foes.  But I'm going to jump ship here because there's an overarching issue that I feel is causing a lot more problems within this vein;  No existing benchmark + counterintuitive "endless missions"

 

So we've got the usual suspect, good ol' Boltor Prime in all its powercreep glory and it's clearly way too darn strong.  But people go really far into endless and say it needs to be that strong, because they need to get farther into endless for a "challenge".  If the weapon is weaker however, killing things is harder, and the "challenge" break point just occurs sooner, thing is they don't want that because seeing lower time numbers makes them feel like the challenge was reduced.  On the flip-side of the coin, that same rifle absolutely trivializes every other bit of content with ease.  Needless to say, the Boltor Prime is an outlier, the nail that sticks out the most is the one that gets hammered down.

 

But hammered to where?  We need a real benchmark at some point to start seeing a real and viable/proper gameplay balance to come to fruition.  Everyone who's invested a bit of time and effort can tell you that the entire Solar Map is a literal cakewalk once one has the appropriate mods and has forma'd a weapon if necessary.  Between that and our ease of abuse when it comes to frame powers... well the normal foes stand less than no chance of ever doing something even remotely dangerous.

 

Survival and Defense end up coming into the focus for players, more the former usually, but each is massively flawed when it comes to the "challenge" aspect of things.  Good players won't die in Survival due to the threat of foes, they have to stop when they can't kill fast enough for LS to remain up.  Good players don't die in Defense due to the threat of foes, they fail because they're defending a fat target who's defenses are static in a sea of scaling enemies.

 

Our foes aren't a threat.

 

This is the core issue at point here, the only things people cling to for endgame are the aforementioned endless modes, but each of them relies heavily on players one-shotting everything as fast as possible.  If our foes are necessarily one-shottable they have a pretty rough time becoming threatening or meaningful though.  This exact thing is why Shock Eximi exist;  How to counter someone with effectively unlimited power and enough damage to level a few thousand battalions?  Hard counter is the only available option.

 

Slowly but surely, overtime the developers have reduced the health/defensive stats of our foes while ramping up their offensive prowess.  In kind we've been subject to powercreep with more outlier weapons with absurd offensive stats popping up.  We've been slowly digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole where proper challenge is going to be increasingly difficult to obtian.  Now that doesn't mean we need mass bullet sponges of course.  But an enemy taking more than five seconds to kill is far from a bullet sponge.

 

Long story short?  We need a real set benchmark before we can ever hope to see things become more stable.  Though in the meantime the clear outliers in need of both buffs and nerfs should definitely be looked at and worked with.  Even without a hard benchmark, we can at least see which things are absurd on both sides of the scale.

Edited August 12, 2014 by (PS4)Bobtm0

[Executor_Aeternus]

It's fixed.

..and worth reading, too. I've been to a bit over an hour in T4 with my 9-forma'd Volt (shield build) and a ridiculous dread. At that point, most other weapons just pretty much stop hurting enemies very much. They're about half as effective (though dread is still pretty much a 1hit ko, maybe 2 hits). Get to around an hour and a half though and the dread takes several charged headshots to make kills on heavy gunners and the like. The boltor prime, at that point, with its spray-n-pray playstyle (high damage but terrible accuracy, assuming maxed heavy call) doesn't work well and ends up being used like a shotgun in enemies' faces hoping for more headshots to compensate. Only the cc lockdown and skill weapons (like bows) keep going. That's actually pretty effective balance. Warframe like nyx, loki, trinity, volt, nova (and the necessary nekros) are excellent still, but damage aoes are totally useless.

 

At first look, this seems balanced... but it isn't. SO MANY weapons are underpowered or overpowered there's no visible equivalent to most weapons. Either they're pretty much useless or very, very powerful and useful. The problem is, weapons useless lategame can be made moderately effective in the solar map. Solar map levels are so ridiculously far removed from Endless missions' difficulty that balancing for one or the other is impossible. Trying to make weapons not too OP for the solar map, yet useful in Endless missions, must be pretty darn hard. My sympathies to DE. Nerfs are useful to help undo some of the OP clearly visible, but honestly a lot of buffs should come to some of the spray-n-prays like afuris, or oldies like lato. Lots of early game weapons are barely even useful in early game, let alone even mid-game.

In short, we aren't asking for nerfs -- but balance. (Admittedly hard to achieve.) Nerfs to some are just part of the process. Others get buffs. Just look at the coming changes, and you can see that trend.

Edited August 12, 2014 by LordGreymantle

[Cleesus]

Stay on topic please, otherwise ill have to lock the thread if this keeps up.

[Arabaxus]

sooooooo you would refer being overpower... and kill everything... in 0,1 seconds... not needing to use any kind of skill... or tactical thinking... and completely remove fun challenge from the game?

 

As if Warframe required skill in the first place.

 

Also I laugh at all the "Boltor Prime OP please nerf DE OMG" when a large chunk of the people that complain are the ones that don't have a Boltor Prime, and when my Latron Prime and Paris Prime can out DPS Boltor P easily with Headshots, even without the damage boost from Heavy Caliber, are more ammo efficient, and the only downside is that requires a brain to use properly. Sure, on paper Boltor Prime seems OP, but it isn't the best thing out there, why go around claiming something is OP when it isn't even the best and ignore the other weapons? I encourage people that call for nerfs to stop chasing DPS tables and actually bloody try other weapons before you call out one for being overpowered.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Arabaxus

[RSITH]

It is to balance things.

[Phantasm98532]

Well apparently, my opinion is censored so, I'll just leave it as I blame PVP for the majority of nerf cries.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Well apparently, my opinion is censored so, I'll just leave it as I blame PVP for the majority of nerf cries.

Please tell me that was a joke, for I am unable to tell, myself.

[Aercascade]

As somebody who wants to use the torid. It isn't viable because other weapons are undeniably stronger.

Torid isn't even viable in high level content and that makes me really sad. :|

[ndantony]

 

Well apparently, my opinion is censored so, I'll just leave it as I blame PVP for the majority of nerf cries.

 

LOL. That was a good one. I got a chance to read it before it was gone from the forum. I couldn't have said it better.

Edited August 12, 2014 by ndantony

[Cleesus]

Well apparently, my opinion is censored so, I'll just leave it as I blame PVP for the majority of nerf cries.

So far pvp and pve has been balanced separately in this game.

[Phantasm98532]

Please tell me that was a joke, for I am unable to tell, myself.

Not even a little bit of a joke.

I promise you, that you will never see a mindless CPU corpus or grineer drone, come on out to the forums, post up a topic about a gun or ability being overpowered after slaughtering him and all his shipmates for an hour in a defense mission. 

However, how much of a fit did we have recently and pretty much every day over Sechura and other DS conflicts? Topic after topic after topic, and my view is much larger then that, it's competitive nature and it expands into EVERY game with a competition aspect not just Warframe. It's just how it is, people don't like to lose, and when it happens a lot will resort to calling for a nerf of a specific item, skill, or character.

 

This post was not meant to offend, however, I do understand it is a very hot issue considering how deeply competitive some people are, but the fact is, it takes people to call for nerfs, and usually those people are the ones on the receiving end of said gun, not the Infestation you just blew apart for the billionth time.

[MemeticRepo]

#NerfMirage

#BuffOberon

[Monolake]

The problem is with the perception. All the discussions are about balancing.

And more things are getting buffed than nerfed. But whiners don't see it.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Monolake

[Arabaxus]

The problem is with the perception. All the discussions are about balancing.

And more things are getting buffed than nerfed. But whiners don't see it.

 

You see one or two individual threads about "Buff Braton Prime, Buff Attica, etc.", but in most of those threads there is going to always be one guy that goes "no nerf Boltor Prime instead", alongside the number of threads that are about "nerf X weapon" "Y weapon needs to be nerfed" etc. It's much more uncommon to see someone say "we should buff the other weapons" in a "nerf X weapon thread" than someone saying "we should be nerfing X weapon" in a "Buff Y weapon thread".