You Say You Want Difficulty, But You Really Want Depth

[Aizeol]

SpartanChief1170, on 17 Apr 2013 - 4:16 PM, said:

I have heard a few suggestions for new types of enemies, while I agree that there should be more, evaluating the old types could also be of use.

I think that one of the issues with the current set is the AI reuse.

Lancers and troopers more or less use the same AI, even though their weapons call out for at least slightly different tactics.

And the sawman, flameblade, and powerfist pretty much do exactly the same things (run at you until in range, then attack) which is also similar to the infested chargers. All the ancients regardless of their type do the same thing as well, and there is little difference in the types of moa.

Giving them each their own behavior would be a good start to improving the AI.

I would like to see more cooperative AI tactics and mixing of enemy types. for example they did a good job of cooperative AI with the shield lancer as other nearby grineer will use them as cover.There is a lot that could be done, like when there is a heavy gunner forcing you behind cover (if you are not insta-killing it), having the other grineer try to flank you (taking indirect routes). or having the melee units go in at that point.

There could also be more spawn combinations per wave. (this could happen later and i just haven't gotten there yet) Currently a wave of enemies seems to consist of a group of basic units, a few nonbasic units(seeker/ballista..etc) and a chance of a heavy unit. They could have more than that formula for example having a couple napalm spawn with a Heavy gunner in place of a few lancer's. (could even have the napalm aim to cut off escape routes with the fire aoe)

In addition, I think smarter adapting AI would be a way to add a significant amount of depth to the game.

Exploring something like machine learning a bit could help in this. I don't think i have ever seen a game where the AI would learn what you were doing and find a way to counteract it. Warframe being PvE focused I think it would be a perfect place for something like that. I know it is a complex subject but there are simplistic elements that could be added to it. (like the AI "thinking" 5 of my allies have died after rushing around that corner, i shouldn't do that).

The interaction between the player and the AI is the CORE of any PvE game, and any variety and complexity added to it will add depth.

^This....all of this^

[Noabettiet]

Awesome point man, really hope you get heard. Because this is truly what it needs and not difficulty. 

[matrixEXO]

I love how Extra Credits' videos are used in this case. I do love those guys.

[Ghobe]

If the Wiki is correct, you're wrong about the Freezing part. Ancients have a damage reduction to freezing except at their leg/arm weakpoints, and even at those spots they only take normal damage.

Who the hell doesn't aim for weak points?

[Aggh]

See? This is a difficulty thread which is interesting, lays out actual game design concepts, and actually makes a good argument instead of "anyone who doesn't think this game is utterly trivial is a nub who needs to lrn2play".

 

Why can't other difficulty threads actually be this way? Instead of being oh-so-subtly condescending about anyone who isn't trivially soloing Pluto.

It's only interesting to people because it tries to side step the issue of how easy this game is.  People don't like the fact that others say the game is easy while they're having trouble.  A thread suggesting similar changes without actually saying the game is too easy will of course appeal to more people.

 

The game does indeed need more depth, and to that point many of the suggestions for added difficulty have had this as a part of suggested changes to the game along with difficulty adjustments.  The need for depth does not change the fact that the game needs added difficulty if it wants to appeal to a wider player base, and the devs have actually discussed adding difficulty options/settings with better rewards.

 

 

Har har, very funny.  None of those made the game more fun, it just made it difficult without complexity.

 

Adding enemies that take more damage from certain attacks or from certain angles will help encourage team coordination.

 

There are plenty of other balance issue the game has.

 

My point is that there is a direction that Warframe should head, and a direction it should avoid.

 

Bullet-sponges, and many of the things you suggested didn't bring more strategy into the game, they brought frustration.

Not all forms of added difficulty should be counterable by easily learned strategies.  This is a shooter, at some point skill and reaction time should be required too.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aggh
Removed Insults

[HvcTerr]

Who the hell doesn't aim for weak points?

 

You're missing the point. They are not weak to Freezing. At worst they are normal to it.

[Ghobe]

You're missing the point. They are not weak to Freezing. At worst they are normal to it.

Well allow me to rephrase it to resistance to both, even in weakpoints.

[Toko]

Some people say "the game is too easy" some "say it is too hard." It seems ok.

 

Let me make this clear: YOU DON'T WANT IT TO BE JUST HARDER, YOU WANT DEPTH AND COMPLEXITY THAT YOU HAVE TO LEARN!

 

Your point doesn't answer the question to people who find the game to hard to begin with. Therefore your whole theory is invalid.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Toko

[SpartanChief1170]

Some people say "the game is too easy" some "say it is too hard." It seems ok.

 

 

Your point doesn't answer the question to people who find the game to hard to begin with. Therefore your whole theory is invalid.

 

One unexplained point doesn't mean the entire theory is invalid and Aizeol has said the early game should be easier at the begging to train players for later in the game when it gets more difficult.

 

A truly challenging game starts out easy and encourages players to learn the ins and outs of the mechanics while the later game forces them to use the knowledge they gained because the challenges will not yield to a "face-roll" strategy.

 

Also the changes may not increase the difficulty necessarily they may just change the game but keep the difficulty about the same

[Naqel]

I have a post on the issue brewing, waiting for what Update 8 might bring.

[Aizeol]

Not all forms of added difficulty should be counterable by easily learned strategies.  This is a shooter, at some point skill and reaction time should be required too.

 

This is true, and I have admitted that there should be legitimate challenges.  The difference is that many times the way challenge is made is with enemies that either just have their data values (hp, armor, damage) increased even if it might be a little immersion breaking and completely boring.

 

Sure, a lancer with more health, more damage, and a faster firing rate is harder, but it doesn't require a new strategy or any new knowledge.

 

Nervos were a good idea with bad execution.  They required teamwork, but right now it is difficult to actually act like a team with everyone not using the push-to-talk option.

 

Some challenges will actually require the player to really just be good at the game, but they should come later on when the player should really be comfortable with the controls.  Nervos were introduced far too early in the level progression.  Many claim that grinders and chargers are as well, and I think the problem is that the animation on the stun is just too long.  (This is a conversation to have on another thread though.)

 

Let me make this clear:  Yes, I agree that some challenges need to be a test of whether the player can execute the desired commands correctly, but those shouldn't be the majority.  The challenges that require teamwork and planning and dynamic decision making will be far more rewarding than just learning to shoot something down.

[HvcTerr]

They required teamwork, but right now it is difficult to actually act like a team with everyone not using the push-to-talk option.

 

It seems to me like either (A) network issues prevent people from hearing you or (B) they can hear you--for now--but are surprised that anyone can talk and ask you how you're doing it.

 

Sometimes I'll have a conversation with someone during am mission and then on the next mission *poof* it no longer works again.

Edited April 18, 2013 by HvcTerr

[Valkyrie9001]

 

You don't want enemies that hit like trucks and you only get a one-button attack.

 

 

+1 Just for that.

[Aizeol]

It seems to me like either (A) network issues prevent people from hearing you or (B) they can hear you--for now--but are surprised that anyone can talk and ask you how you're doing it.

 

Sometimes I'll have a conversation with someone during am mission and then on the next mission *poof* it no longer works again.

 

Yeah, sadly it seems that communication isn't really encouraged.  Which is strange considering it is a co-op focused PvE game.  That is, again, another topic but no less valid a point.

[Ghobe]

You know I really like a lot of the extra topics being touched on in here, even if they aren't based on the op. Hopefully someone out there is paying attention ;)

[Lanster]

I agree with the OP and would like to keep this thread up there.

 

I feel that it is much easier to increase the values on enemies to make them harder to kill to increase the difficulty, but that is not fun. 

 

It will be great if the devs can throw in more difficult enemy types, such as enemies with different AIs, weak points, weapons etc, instead of recycling the standard goons and giving them more hp. Of course that is more design and programming, costing more time from the developers, but in the long run it will make the game be more interesting and hang on to its player base. 

[Aizeol]

I agree with the OP and would like to keep this thread up there.

 

It will be great if the devs can throw in more difficult enemy types, such as enemies with different AIs, weak points, weapons etc, instead of recycling the standard goons and giving them more hp. Of course that is more design and programming, costing more time from the developers, but in the long run it will make the game be more interesting and hang on to its player base.

Very true. Hopefully there will be more variety in enemy types with each passing update and even past release. Rightnow all I can do is hope this thread and ones similar to it get heard.

I would love to hear from more members and possibly some staff about whatkind of puzzles/environments/enemies should be added.

[Mak_Gohae]

Very true. Hopefully there will be more variety in enemy types with each passing update and even past release. Rightnow all I can do is hope this thread and ones similar to it get heard.

I would love to hear from more members and possibly some staff about whatkind of puzzles/environments/enemies should be added.

 

They do add new enemies but every time they add something people complain.

Look at the Seekers now, they are nothing but actual light bullet sponges. Their grenade ball arent even really that effective since they take so long to blow up. By the time they do you should be clear of the fight. So we have an enemy that does really nothing until you get in close range when they finally pull out their guns. And by that time it doesnt matter.

[Aggh]

They do add new enemies but every time they add something people complain.

Look at the Seekers now, they are nothing but actual light bullet sponges. Their grenade ball arent even really that effective since they take so long to blow up. By the time they do you should be clear of the fight. So we have an enemy that does really nothing until you get in close range when they finally pull out their guns. And by that time it doesnt matter.

Imo they should allow them to occasionally drop a roller too.  This could be used as an excuse to turn down the roller spawns and at the same time give people more control over how many rollers they have to deal with.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aggh

[neKroMancer]

They do add new enemies but every time they add something people complain.

Look at the Seekers now, they are nothing but actual light bullet sponges. Their grenade ball arent even really that effective since they take so long to blow up. By the time they do you should be clear of the fight. So we have an enemy that does really nothing until you get in close range when they finally pull out their guns. And by that time it doesnt matter.

They did add more enemies with only one feature/mechanic - stunlock. As if the game doesn't have enough of them.

 

Roller is stagger/stun related. Chargers is stagger/stun related. Nervos is stun/stagger related. The entire Infestation are stagger/stun based faction.

 

The problem lies in the fact that DE simply didn't have enough 'working' mechanic to put in the game. All contents/mechanics are recycled over and over again 

- Grineer heavies use Radial blast.

- Vor uses shock and teleport.

- Golem uses pull

- Kela De Thaym uses roller and Granadier's missile.

- Phorid and Hyena share homing missile.

- Ampulas imitates both Mag and Ember.

- Lech Krill used to use Frost's Icewave.

- Nef Anyo uses smokescreen.

 

As far as I see, the addition of nervos didn't deviate from this pattern. Recycling content, giving new name, and adding it to the game. It certainly going to hurt the game in a long run.

 

At least DE listen to the playerbase about boss battle and design. I'll wait for the new Golem. 

Edited April 18, 2013 by neKroMancer

[Aggh]

They did add more enemies with only one feature/mechanic - stunlock. As if the game doesn't have enough of them.

 

Roller is stagger/stun related. Chargers is stagger/stun related. Nervos is stun/stagger related. The entire Infestation are stagger/stun based faction.

 

The problem lies in the fact that DE simply didn't have enough 'working' mechanic to put in the game. All contents/mechanics are recycled over and over again 

- Grineer heavies use Radial blast.

- Vor uses shock and teleport.

- Golem uses pull

- Kela De Thaym uses roller and Granadier's missile.

- Phorid and Hyena share homing missile.

- Ampulas imitates both Mag and Ember.

- Lech Krill used to use Frost's Icewave.

- Nef Anyo uses smokescreen.

 

As far as I see, the addition of nervos didn't deviate from this pattern. Recycling content, giving new name, and adding it to the game. It certainly going to hurt the game in a long run.

 

At least DE listen to the playerbase about boss battle and design. I'll wait for the new Golem. 

It fits lorewise.  The whole basis of the fights throughout the various systems is the fight for Orikin tech,  It should come as no surprise that some of the grineer/corpus/infested would have orokin tech like the tenno do.  What they need to do is add some more unique skills on top of that.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Aggh

[neKroMancer]

It fits lorewise.  The whole basis of the fights throughout the various systems is the fight for Orikin tech,  It should come as no surprise that some of the grineer/corpus/infested would have orokin tech like the tenno do.  What they need to do is add some more unique skills on top of that.

 

It may seems fitting in a storyboard but it sure doesn't look good in the game. The fact that players prefer to fight against Jackal, which doesn't have any relation  in term of mechanic to frames, is a good evidence that designs that fit the lore isn't necessarily good.  

 

It also doesn't fit lore-wise since the corpus : Their production methods blend technology and ritual, in-part, because the ancient Orokin materials they use are inscrutable to them. 

 

If they couldn't even properly investigate the technology, how could they duplicate Orokin tech? 

 

The Grinneer isn't portrayed as tech-heavy as the corpus and all we can do is make an assumption that they sell some of the Orokin artifacts and got these enhancements in payment.

 

However, this little argument isn't related to the topic of depth and difficulty. Let's stay on course.

[Aggh]

It may seems fitting in a storyboard but it sure doesn't look good in the game. The fact that players prefer to fight against Jackal, which doesn't have any relation  in term of mechanic to frames, is a good evidence that designs that fit the lore isn't necessarily good.  

 

It also doesn't fit lore-wise since the corpus : Their production methods blend technology and ritual, in-part, because the ancient Orokin materials they use are inscrutable to them. 

 

If they couldn't even properly investigate the technology, how could they duplicate Orokin tech? 

 

The Grinneer isn't portrayed as tech-heavy as the corpus and all we can do is make an assumption that they sell some of the Orokin artifacts and got these enhancements in payment.

 

However, this little argument isn't related to the topic of depth and difficulty. Let's stay on course.

Players like jackal because they can just spray into the legs and make the boss easier to deal with.

 

They could have found similar or dated/prototype orokin tech

[Toko]

One unexplained point doesn't mean the entire theory is invalid and Aizeol has said the early game should be easier at the begging to train players for later in the game when it gets more difficult.

 

Also the changes may not increase the difficulty necessarily they may just change the game but keep the difficulty about the same

 

He should update the original post then. I was using that as my source.

[Ghobe]

Players like jackal because they can just spray into the legs and make the boss easier to deal with.

Wrong players like Jackal because he actually has mechanics and phases.

He has the machine gun if he's targeting you.

He has the stomp if he's near his target.

He has the grenade spread if he's near his target and just got up.

He has the adds constantly spawning in the room leaving booby traps all over.

He has the missiles in phase 2(though they need work, I've only actually seen them come back down to cause damage once).

His legs need to be damage before his body can be damaged.

His body can only take so much damage before his shields are raised back up.

^Mechanics.

Compare it to Hek.

He has a shield.

He has a health bar.

He spawns two adds in the beginning of the fight with the same name as him.

He runs away to cover if no one is in melee range.

^lack of mechanics.