The Rhino Conundrum - Op & Up At The Same Time

[FatalJ]

Hey folks, this is my first suggestion to the forums of Warframe and I'd like to challenge the current state of the Rhino, preferably without making a total twerp of myself... so here goes :)

Forever I'm seeing people from both ends of the game complaining about how OP/UP the Rhino is. It is an interesting paradox because, as odd as it may seem, both sides are absolutely right. The Rhino is an absolute wrecking machine in the nodes, he tears through standard missions and bosses like a torpedo through paper but finds himself almost useless in the late game defences/survivals, even when spamming the hell out of his stomp. The big thing is his Iron Skin, which blocks plenty of damage (way too much in fact) for the standard missions of the game, but finds itself getting instantly destroyed in 1 hit and doing almost nothing in the higher levels of survival/defence missions.

The reason I see this as such a concern is the Rhino isn't really the tank he is meant to be, and is instead a CC bot, trying to maki use of his stomp repeatedly to lock up as many enemies as possible for other frames instead. Of all of his abilities Charge is the only one I feel is fine, fitting both thematically and gameplay-wise, however I think his other abilities need a little bit of rethinking. If the choice were mine I would:

 

1. Change Roar to fit with this style of frame

 

Instead of just simply buffing allied damage, make his Roar cause panic in the enemy ranks and draw aggro to the Rhino from all enemies effected by it. To keep with the frame thematically I'd say lower enemies damage resistances instead of buffing allied damage (although make the effect not as strong as the damage buff currently sits). That way his roar becomes much more a team based ability, giving allies both the space/time and additional penetration they need to cut the crowd apart while the Rhino tanks as he should be doing, instead of just providing a random damage steroid.

 

2. Lower the CC on his stomp

 

Stomp is just flat out ridiculous at max rank. I personally feel the max level slow loses the impact of the ablity somewhat, making it look more like a time pause than the massive time stopping shockwave like Stomp it is supposed to be. I say fix the enemy movement effect to 10% or even 20%, as that is more than enough, and just have increased ranks merely increase the time this slow effects enemies from 3 to 6 (as opposed to the 8 at max it currently is). Damage is fine and not really a massive concern, but I want to stress this is a very cool and defining ability, so it really doesn't want to be nerfed into the ground.

 

3. Make Iron Skin Scale

 

This is the deal breaker, Iron Skin must scale to match the enemies the Rhino is going up against to make him equally efffective in both the early and late game, isntead of the sparse difference there is now. How? I would make it a fixed length absorption ability. Upon activation the Rhino becomes immune and starts to absorb the damage he takes for 5 seconds or so, building it up just like Nyx ult. Upon the end of the ability the Rhino then gains his shield equivelent to the amount of damage he took during that 5 second window, effectively doubling the time that the invincibility gave him asuming he is still sustaining the same damage when the effect triggers.

 

The obvious difference between this and Nyx ult is that the Rhino cannot choose to say "Oh, I'm not taking damage, better cancel it to save energy". Once it is used, it is used, and whatever damage you sustained (or lack thereof) is what you will have to work with. Naturally I would expect a duration on this shield, resetting it to 0 whenever Iron skin is used and giving it a pretty hefty cooldown, so the Rhino can't chain a permanent huge shield in the late game. I'd imagine the invulnerable period would have to be hard coded to a 5 second timer, and only have the actual shields time frame affected by power duration, and of course power strength should do nothing.

 

This new Iron Skin of course would synergise very nicely with his new Roar ability and actually retain his tankiness into the late game where enemies are dealing much more damage, while simultaneously lowering his tankiness in the early game where he is only dealing with weak attacks. Players should find it much more rewarding finding the best time to use Iron Skin, instead of the mindless "Throw up HP" spell it currently is. Furthermore his stomp and charge will now primarily be used to CC opponents while his Iron Skin is on cooldown to deal with the sudden lack of survivability (which a badly timed Iron Skin/Roar could easily create).

 

Anyway, that's how I see it, thoughts and criticisms are greatly appreciated :)

Edited August 30, 2014 by FatalJ

[Jamescell]

Idk what you're talking about. Roar, Stomp and Iron Skin (as a slight cushion) make him an almost must have in high level defense and survival. 

 

His Stomp is great for recovery and is essentially a mass stun. Roar is amazing for damage scaling. Iron Skin, although it doesn't scale well is still worth the energy. 

Edited August 28, 2014 by Jamescell

[cladin]

Good first post *claps*

[insaninater]

I think iron skin got worked on before. Went through a lot of changes to get to where it is now. I think i heard that, in the past, iron skin worked the way you're suggesting before being changed to what it is now.

[Ronyn]

I think iron skin got worked on before. Went through a lot of changes to get to where it is now. I think i heard that, in the past, iron skin worked the way you're suggesting before being changed to what it is now.

It never worked the way the OP suggested.

It used to be pure invincibility with a time descriptor.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I think iron skin got worked on before. Went through a lot of changes to get to where it is now. I think i heard that, in the past, iron skin worked the way you're suggesting before being changed to what it is now.

 

Nah. In the past Iron Skin was flat out invulnerability. Then it got changed to damage reduction (IIRC). I think there may have been one more major change. After that it got to what we have now. It has gone through numerous visual changes though.

[FatalJ]

Thats the thing though isn't it? The old Iron Skin was just a damage immunity, requiring no thought or concern about the strengths and weaknesses of the frame. The new Iron Skin however is just a flat HP shield, that is just as bad as invincibility at low levels, and virtually pointless at high levels. He certainly isn't the tank he was intended to be at high levels, instead he is a damage buff support with stacks of CC.

 

My goal here is to make him viable and interesting at all levels of the game. Most people agree he needs a method of drawing aggro, and the best skill I can think of for that is his Roar. It's a typical shout like you see in many RPG's, and it has always worked well for them, so if it ain't broke and all that. The debate always comes in with Iron Skin and how to do it, but most suggestions I see are questionable for their overall effect on the game. The hope with my suggestion is the shield that he gains is governed by the strength of the enemies he is fighting, which to me feels like a much more healthy mechanic.

P.S. Personally I believe the Valkyr is in a similar boat right now, damage immunity is a very toxic type of ablity for balance, and I have a number of thoughts on her, but 1 step at a time. :)

Edited August 29, 2014 by FatalJ

[FatalJ]

the IS...it wouldn't need a cooldown (cooldowns existed in Closed Beta, they were removed due to people just spamming, then waiting for cooldown, then charging into room again etc, doesn't really work here), perhaps a few tweaks to the way it works.

Yeah that is a fair point, I have to admit there are a few things rattling in my mind about potential concerns with this idea.

 

My main concern is if your Iron Skin runs out while Roar is still in effect at high level even when using it correctly, how do you break aggro? All of a sudden your Roar becomes a problem instead of a benefit. Since the roar lasts 15 seconds I'm sort of spit balIing as to whether his CC and natural tankiness is going to be enough to mitigate the damage if something massive comes round the corner and straight blasts your shield off. I mean one can still use cover I suppose as well as the stacks of CC the rest of his kit provides, and I rather like the idea of that myself, but I can see a fair few players not getting on board with it.

I don't believe it can really work without a cooldown however since it is still 5 seconds of invincibility plus whatever shield you build up. Without a cooldown and while using power efficiency with high energy regen, we are back to a warframe popping an invinciblility spell constantly. With Fleeting Expertise you probably won't care about the loss of duration cause you can just top up your shield again pretty much whenever you feel like it, so the downside is a moot point. Then of course the question comes, how long should the cooldown be? I'm looking at somewhere in the realm of 20 seconds, but it feels like something that would need to be very carefully play tested.

 

Last issue that concerns me is that the shield is based on the damage dealt to the Rhino, so do we use the normal damage values the Rhino would have taken or do we consider using the damage he would have taken if we ignore the Rhino's armour? After all it would be kind of silly to say you lose power on this spell if you build more defences as a tank. Perhaps that could be the spell levelling maybe? Ignoring 0, 15, 30, 50% (or w/e) of your frames armour to build the shield? Could get messy.

Edit: Although i have suddenly realised that Fleeting Expertise would work a gem on this set up, as it would lwoer the duration of your Roar, and allow the Rhino to limit that first problem. Or he could keep or even increase the duration and kite instead if he has something like a (reworked) Oberon on his team. So from a build point of view it keeps him interesting.

Edited August 29, 2014 by FatalJ

[FatalJ]

Would like to bump this as it seemed to be gaining a good number of likes, but not many comments really.

 

What do you think guys? Yay? Nay? Kiss my a$$ Fatal? :)

[Janzer]

For funsies I'd like to see:

 

Roar cause aggro, as stated, but make enemies in a near by vicinity stop firing and instead rush at Rhino with Melee attacks. Basically enraging them and setting them up for...

 

Stomp, which I have no problems with at all right now. It's a great utility and CC device.

 

Those skills together make him more of a Tank that can actually aggro mobs.

 

Iron Skin is pretty weak at high rank (50+ mobs) so when I see people say they think Iron Skin is good for high level, I'm wondering if they've had the fun of having it stripped in a few shots from high ranking mobs.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Janzer

[Noble_Cactus]

I like the Iron Skin change (I actually suggested something almost exactly the same last night in another thread :x). It removes the crutch factor from IS in low-level play and removes the paper armor effect from IS in high-level play. More importantly, it gives Rhino a defined role as a team tank rather than a bulldozer who rushes three rooms ahead. Draw aggro, soak up damage, gain a small defensive boost for your team. What that change would do that Snowglobe can't is that it takes into account new enemies who enter the room after the invulnerability has ended, because Rhino would be able to move around and choose how much damage he takes during the invulnerability period.

 

Idk what you're talking about. Roar, Stomp and Iron Skin (as a slight cushion) make him an almost must have in high level defense and survival. 

 

His Stomp is great for recovery and is essentially a mass stun. Roar is amazing for damage scaling. Iron Skin, although it doesn't scale well is still worth the energy. 

 

He's definitely not a must have. But he's a decent frame to have around if only for Roar.

[Kurnuttaja]

I dont see the argument of iron skin being useless in high level, its still more useful than shield and can be instantly refilled. I dont think the game itself should be balanced around this so called "endgame" that is 1 hour+ t4 survival. Not saying your ideas are bad though, they are interesting and could definitely work.

 

I like to play Rhino mainly because of iron skin and its knockdown / bleed proc / toxin immunity. The proposed change would make it "less present" and I would generally have to pop it more often. The change would buff it for surv and defense but nerf for other modes with less enemies around.